The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:51 PM

I went on a course on teaching folk dance some years ago, and failed to have a discussion about two issues. One was women's morris. I was told, shortly, that women have their own ceremonial dances. I was not given any information about how to get in touch with any groups doing them.

The other was having boys dancing together in folk dances, which was verboten, without explanation. As it is stated in the books of the EFDS on the subject, the reason is obvious. Not to me, with a class overheavy on the male side, doing the sort of dances which down't demand delicate hand holding.

The people concerned couldn't see the paradox.

Then they taught all of us a sword dance of the knot forming variety.

Penny

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:04 PM

morris ring has approx 152 members,open morris has approx 92 members,the morris federation has approx 405 members,so 497 sides do not wish/[or are excluded from] to be in the morris ring.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

"the hooligan aggression that goes with sexual competition (which is what is being ritualised, isn't it?) in the whacking of their sticks."

I'm glad somebody has raised that subject at last. Yes, there is a lot of that, especially in Border morris but in Cotswold too, when it's done right, and I have heard females express the opinion that there's something about morris done well by fit young men that creates an excitement that just doesn't happen with women doing it. You can't ignore that aspect. (Women dancing Swaggering Boney? does not compute)

Because of that, it's important that some good all-male sides remain, though I doubt that many Morris Ring teams have got the right stuff any more, unless they have succeeded in recruiting a lot more younger dancers.

An example: Hammersmith Morris Men were in the ring, until they got thrown out for reasons I won't detail here, except to say they were carrying the time-honoured tradition of misrule a bit too far for the Ring's delicate sensibilities. But they remain an all-male side, because they know that if you have a mixed team you tend to recruit more and more women and fewer men, and you end up with an all-female team if you're not careful, because your average young English bloke doesn't want to dance at all anyway and thinks it's "girly". But if you have an all male team and you dance well and with enough masculine vigour you can recruit young men, and Hammersmith did regularly, because they can make it look good in a macho and blokish sort of way. A few years ago I was going to practices and danceouts with Hammersmith Morris for while, and and I know how much effort they put into their practice sessions, not to mention the post-practice drinking. The epitome of "work hard, play hard" - and I found it bewildering, exciting and exhausting.

Now, it's not that Hammersmith disapprove of women dancing morris - they like nothing better than to invite female and mixed teams to their pub tours and dancing weekends, far more fun for obvious reasons... but they prefer to keep their own dancing as men's stuff, and nobody accuses them of prancing about like fairies, not even when dancing Adderbury Sweet Jenny Jones.

(disclaimer: I haven't seen Smiffs recently. I may be out of date - I hope they haven't got old and decrepit in the last 10 years)

Anahata
(by the way, do any men do belly dancing? I just wondered....)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

Most of us now have bellies that dance of their own accord.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:37 AM

"and I have heard females express the opinion that there's something about morris done well by fit young men that creates an excitement that just doesn't happen with women doing it. "

absolutely agree. I love dancing morris and think there's room for everybody to do it whatever way they can, but if I'm in the audience then I'd rather watch a fit men only side than a women's side however good. Sides which currently spring to mind for cotswold are Dog Rose, Hammersmith, and Bristol...
....but I'd rather watch a good women's team or a good mixed team than a half arsed bunch of fat old men ambling around & not getting off the ground, naming no names :)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:12 AM

Yep, I agree too. There's definitely something intrinsically masculine about some morris dances and the way some sides dance them....and very nice too. As I said before, there's room for both, or all. Nor do I think any individual side should be forced to accept the opposite sex into their side. We need some all-male sides, we need all-female sides and if people enjoy dancing with mixed sides, then we need them too. There's surely no good reason that the different types can't perform in the same places at the same time though?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:13 AM

I'm not sure that membership numbers is the same thing as health. If those teams that are members support the aims and philosophy of the organisation, attend events and enjoy each other's company etc is it not healthy?

If we're talking about the Ring's attitude to women dancing, which we seem to be, as a member of two NW women's teams I have noticed over the last few years a softening of attitude and Ring sides enjoying the company of groups of all types from the other two organisations. These things will take time and inflammatory comments from whatever point of view will not bring change any quicker. The Ring sides that won't dance on the same bill as women will find themselves invited to fewer and fewer events though.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Redwing
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:52 AM

Nice sentiments, Neovo. Sometimes I feel it's a shame that the our varied forms of dance all got filed under the banner of "Morris" because it has led to "rules" which may (emphasise "may") apply to one form of morris being forced on another one to which has no link whatsoever and hence no relevance. I also tend to suspect that the "men only" dictate that the Ring championed had more to do with the attitudes and preferences at the time that Cecil Sharp was around collecting the dances and reviving them with teams of university students than true "tradition". But that's just my gut feeling.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:22 AM

Neovo,noin my opinion its not healthy,because there is a sizeable majority ,that either prefer not to be in it ,or are excluded from it.
At no point have I made inflammatory statements.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:49 AM

Why does the "health" of one of the morris organisations concern you so much?

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

Did I say you had made inflamatory statements? I can't recall naming names.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:54 AM

Yes, it has bothered me too that there is a hint of a hidden agenda, an unclear subtext, and possibly the distant sound of an axe being ground - but we can not yet see or hear what it is all about.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

Does this mean that the position of Waitrose is not healthy, because there is a sizeable majority that either prefer other supermarkets, or can not reach a branch? And what of Sky TV? Esso? Barclays? Mercedes?

Not having over 50% of the market does not mean the body concerned is failing and near to collapse.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Strad
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:30 AM

Is women dancing Morris the reason for all this wet weather??

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:35 AM

Come on, Captain Birdseye.The vast body of people in this country do not support Manchester United, do not buy Arctic Monkeys records, do not live in London and never take holidays on narrow boats. Yet all these minority activities seem to carry on uninterrupted and perfectly successfully.
If you wish to make a point about the Morris Ring, or members of Pigeon Fanciers clubs, or any opther minorty grouping, then spit it out, don't really on hints and sneers.The Morris Ring happens to exist to promote an activity both you and I have no particular wish to get involved with. This does not cause me any problem, but it apparently does to you(I say apparently, because all your comments are slightly veiled).So, if you have a problem, what exactly is it?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:06 AM

There is no hidden agenda ,no axe being ground,neither have i sneered at anyone,I have stated earlier my views on Morris dancing,End of story,.
Treewind,I started this thread ,to see what peoples opinions were,quite a normal thing for a discussion forum.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: skipy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

I'm going to form "Crossover Morris Federation Ring" where men can cance morris dressed as ladies!
Skipy

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:11 AM

The only thing I object to is Morris dancing done badly. And so much is done badly by so many. I don't care who does it – male, female, mixed, provided it is danced well.

If I hate anything it is bad Border - the dance of the lazy and the inept who think all you need to do is black your face, wear rags and shout a lot. Bad Border – the easy option; Bad Border – the style that is displacing all others.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:13 AM

good point, morris -ey.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:39 AM

Bad Border?
Send'em all to a Shropshire Bedlams practice.
That should wake them up!

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:59 PM

"I started this thread ,to see what peoples opinions were,quite a normal thing for a discussion forum."

I call bullshit.
Why did you not start a thread enquiring with equally wide-eyed innocence about the state of health of the Morris Federation, for example. Or Open Morris? Why only one organisation?

Richard's right of, course. As with several other threads you started, the sound of distant axes being ground is deafening. I'm really not sure what the agenda is in this case. Other than standard troll motivation - pick on something controversial and watch the fun as everybody picks fights with each other.

I won't be fooled again.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:31 PM

If it is not possible to discuss something controversial,This forum would be very boring,.
Through discussion it maybe possible to change and alter opinions,and learn.
if you want to discuss the Morris federation,Start your own thread and discuss it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:57 PM

The Morris Ring is a private members' organisation, and anyone who disagrees with it, or who has an unfavourable opinion of it, is entitled to choose not to join.

It is an umbrella organisation for Morris dance clubs that are all male. That is for historical reasons, and remains the case largely for social reasons, and because the pace of change in an organisation devoted to a traditional activity is likely to be slow.

My own team, Dolphin, has been in the Ring for many years. We get a lot out of it, not just meeting other clubs at events all over the country and abroad, but also as a source of information, publications and equipment. The Ring has massive archives of photographs and film, and has published or facilitated the publication of many books, tapes, CDs and videos, all of which help to keep the morris alive.

As a member of a Ring side, I enjoy the "all boys together" atmosphere of a Ring feast. It's puerile, sometimes, but it's fun.

But I have only come across one or two so-called "misogynists" in 24 years in the Morris. And one of those has a wife who dances in a step-clog team that is closely allied to his own Cotswold side.

Dolphin have a long history of association with women's and mixed sides. Several of our members are or have been married to dancers from other North West and Cotswold sides. We regularly dance at mixed events. We organise events and invite mixed and women's sides.

It simply isn't an issue, and hasn't been for 20 years or more.

There is no more misogyny in the Ring than in any other group of men with a similar age profile. The Ring doesn't seek to discourage or prevent women from dancing. I have been to several Ring events where women have been at the top table.

I see more prejudice against the Ring than I find within it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:55 PM

Greg Stephens, The Morris ring does not cause me a problem.[Iam not a female morris dancer]
In every other form of traditional music,judgements are made on merit,people are employed regardless of sex,they are employed because of their abilities,.
A very good argument, could be made that male morris sides,are not getting the best dancers,because they are using gender as a way of choosing their members.,
At the moment that is their prerogative,but it doesnt mean That the public are necessarily enjoying Morris dancing of the highest standard as a result.
THE Morris Federation has among its aims the maintaining and improvement of standards.
The Morris Ring,states that it wants to encourage Morris dancing, preserve and maintain the history and traditions of Morris Dancing.
Open Morris, believe in morris dancing for all,and that Morris should be fun.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:21 AM

Morris teams don't choose their members. Dancers (or would-bne dancers) choose the team.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:54 AM

Manitas,Yes ,but by excluding women [being male only],it means women are denied the right to dance with a particular team,should they approach a male only team,however good a dancer they are,their application is not going to be considered on merit.
consequently Male only sides are losing the oppurtunity to include good female dancers,and possibly improve the standard of their dancing.
I am not a Morris dancer,that does not stop me from enjoying morris danced well,.
earlier in this thread I was asked why it concerned me as I was not a Morris dancer, [what a weak argument],that is like saying if you are not a singer or musician,you cant appreciate good singing and playing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:19 AM

But if it's a single gender team (of whatever persuasion) why would another gender person want to join? Or have I missed the point? If a man wanted to join a Women's NW side would they look good in the frock? Changing the gender mix would change the whole ethos and style. Form or join a mixed side if that's what you want to do.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 AM

Thank you Dick - that's a much clearer and more honest statement of your views on the subject than the rather mysterious question with which you started the thread.

I don't happen to agree with that view, for reasons I stated earlier so needn't repeat.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:46 AM

There is no "right" to dance. If a team is male only (or female only come to that) then consideration of members of the opposite sex joining simply does not arise.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:22 AM

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.
In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender.
Clearly as the Morris federation,has many more members than the Morris ring,this is a majority view amongst people who dance the morris.
Morris ring 152members ,Morris fed 405,open Morris 92.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:25 AM

Membership numbers do not necessarily imply that those in Open or Fed are mixed. I dance for two women's Federation NW sides - we don't allow men to dance with us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: IanC
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:33 AM

Yeah, I think we've gone off-topic here talking about individual sides. The thread was about The Morris Ring.

My village mummers team are members of Open Morris as we're not Morris Dancers and all we really want is the insurance (all the "Morris Organisations" badly let down mummers when they negotiated the "Morris Exemption" in the licensing bill and none are doing anything at all about it now) and Open Morris is simply the cheapest.

My rapper team are members of The Ring. Strictly speaking, we have broken Ring rules and should be thrown out of The Ring for letting women dance with us occasionally for performances. It isn't the team's gender orientation that I was referring to above, it's the organisation's. On that level, things do have to change, and they will.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:43 AM

Women move differently - its just a plain fact, their proportions are different, their limbs are jointed differently - and as soon as an infant gets up on its hind legs there is a visible difference between the sexes.

Ok, some men are definitely effeminate in their movements - my older son, 6ft 4inches and he works out, but he runs like a big girl's blouse - and some women dance vigorously, but all that has nothing to do with how the Morris Ring conducts itself.

Some sides were reconstructed after the first world war - according to the folk law, because some of the sisters of those who did not return from the war had assisted their brothers in practising the dances.

I don't know how accurate the song 'The Ladies go dancing at Whitsun' is - or if it is supose to include Cotswold Morris, but it does seem to indicate that the original tradition of dancing as part of the yearly cycle was carried on by the distaff side.

I had a number of elderly female relatives who never married because there were no men to marry. My grandfather was tiny - so small he was not taken for the army. He went to sign on with the other lads from the village, and had to walk all the way back alone, and slept under a hedge - he played Little Devil Doubt, but no one else in the play survived the war....

But recent history is probably of little interest to the organisers of the Morris Ring. It is their club, if they want it to be all male that is their privilage. If there are sides who make spectacles of themselves refusing to associate with women dancers - well there are greater mysogenists, and who knows, all this rapid climate change in the last hundred years might actually be due to women dancing the morris and not greenhouse gasses at all. All those glaciers melting - dead significant if you think about it.

If the Morris ring is eventually reduced to a few sides and some old men in cardigans looking after their library and other resources - well - so what?

If the Morris Ring gets political and takes over the government, legislates against women dancing or playing music - that would be interesting, so would the consequences.

We can't preserve anything for ever, and people are dancing the morris, perhaps without the discipline, or the finesse, or the rationale of the old sides, but it is not lost, just different.

It isn't something that can be controlled, people aged from two to ninety two dance on the sea front at Sidmouth - they dance like maidens or madmen - and anything in betweeen.

It's the beat.

The beat goes on.

I wonder why they called themselves the Morris RING....

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:44 AM

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:24 AM

Birdseye

"If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance."

There you go again. Where is this "right to dance"?

If they don't like it they can form their own side - or move.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:31 AM

As a female, I see no appeal whatsoever in joining an all-male side. If I wanted to dance and could find no local female or mixed side, then I'd probably put the word about and try to start one.

I see no reason why an all-male side shouldn't be allowed to remain an all-male side if that's what they want to do. Allowing a female to join the side would change the dynamics of the side, of the dancing and of the whole thing generally. On top of which, if the members are dancing with the side because they want to dance with an all-male side, if females were allowed to join, some of them would probably leave, since they wouldn't be getting what they wanted out of it. It could bring about the decline and finish of a side.

Why can't we all just leave people alone to do what they want to do?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:51 AM

Treewind, if you Contacted a folk club/festival organiser,and was told, no its against our policy to book female singers,would you be annoyed?
Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS.
I am talking about equal opportunities,that people should not be excluded from dancing because of their gender,that sides should be made up of the best dancers, regardless of their gender.
I as a member of the public like to see a good display,I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side,
The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: RogerTCB
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:50 AM

Yes, there are a few misogynists (for whom 'womens morris' is an oxymoron) hiding out in the Morris Ring but their numbers are dwindling.

I know from experience that several Squires' of The Morris Ring have no difficulty at all with womens/mixed morris & have done their best to lead the reactionaries of the member sides into the light.

Very few member sides of The Morris Ring are actually active within the organisation (the same applies to the Fed as well). The two Ring sides I dance with are only there by accident and now its just too much effort to change & would provoke arguments between friends for no benefit. Both sides are male only because most of the members prefer it that way and the rest don't care. Because they are male only sides, they can be members of The Ring. Its the side itself deciding collectively that they want to be a mens organisation, not the Ring.

The Ring has never had an influence over either of my Ring sides choice of who they dance out with & both go on tour with womens & mixed sides without any difficulty.

Several years ago, both Ducklington & Ellington changed from male to mixed so the could continue rather than fold. Whatever Morris organisations they were members of before, they are now both members of the Federation.

The statement about Ring sides refusing entry to women has the cart before the horse - its nothing to do with the Ring & everything to do with the members of the side approached.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:00 AM

"In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender."

As an admitted non-dancer why do you place such importance on your opinion in this matter?

What about freedom of association?

"Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS."

No, that just is not true.

"I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side"

A bad morris side of either sex won't impove just by becoming mixed. The fact of the matter is that some Morris teams are better than others and their gender or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:13 AM

Anyway, the original question:

"does anyone know, the present health of this organisation"

Ageing, perhaps, but still the most long-lived of any similar organisations.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

Captain Birdseye

The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Actually, I was dancing morris in the seventies with Chanctonbury Ring and a University side that became Brighton Morris Men. Both of these remain men only. Around that time I knew the women who formed the Knots of May (Garland and Clog) and Cuckoo's Nest (Cotswold) both of which remain women only. Not long after, Ditchling Morris was formed as a mixed side which it remains. There are umpteen other sides within twenty miles. Nobody needs to feel excluded.

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that anyone has ever not been able to find a side to join?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:49 AM

MANITAS ,Please tell us what other forms of traditional music operate a gender bias,women are booked at folksong clubs ,can dance and play at ceilidhs and country dances, can dance playford,can call for dancing,
my opinion is important because I am amember of the public,morris dancing is a form of entertainment,it may not be its only purpose ,but if a Morris side goes and collects money,they are putting on a performance,the better[entertainment and good dancing]performance they acheive the more money they will get.
Snail,all those original womens morris sides 1970,s were formed because they could not dance with men.,so they had to form womens sides
I dont need to state a particular case,as I was quoting as a hypothetical argument.
Manitas ,a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Birdseye

I am not clear anymore, if I ever was, what your point is.

On the one hand you talk of a "right" to dance, but do not say where this right is enshrined; then you talk of performance at clubs (which, presumably can have whatever criteria they like), of being able to dance at ceilidhs, and why not they pay to do so, then you talk about morris as entertainment.

It really is quite simple. Morris dance sides do not have to have as members anyone they don't want. We were a mens side that danced with womens sides, with mixed sides, danced individiually with mixed sides, were members of the Ring and were vociferous in that organisation about the need for change. We were very selective as to which men we allowed to join because we had a philosphy about performance that we did not want to compromise by letting in those who were not or could not become good enough to meet our standards.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:20 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."
In the same way that a male voice choir will improve if it allows good female singers to join.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."

Any bad side will improve if it allows any good dancers to join them.

Male female or those that have had the operation.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:07 PM

Male voice choirs for one.

Ceoltas and the Gaelic Mod have separate classes for male and female singing regardless of the register, don't they?

The Baccu Ber in France has only boys and young men.

Javanese Bedoyo and Srimpi is for girls only.

There are loads more traditional dances which have a gender bias but have named a few actual traditions rather than hypothetical ones I don't have to search out any more.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM

To back up manitas at work, and others, can I remake a point I made earlier. My partner(female) runs a women's choir called the Loud Mouth Women. It is great. There are other women's choirs in the region. There are also male voice choirs. Clearly some people (well, Catain Birdseye) have a problem with this. I don't.
At Christmas, we have a special mixed sex choir for a bit of carol-singing. That's fun, too.To be frank, anybody who comes and tells us who we should or should not be singing with will get a short two-word answer.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:04 PM

I am talking about traditional folk music,male voice choirs are irrelevant,as are female voice choirs, in the english/british folk tradition women can call dances ,do country dancing sing at folk clubs,do playford,play in ceilidh bands.,but not dance with certain male morris sides
Greg Stephens,I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:06 PM

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Lester
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM

I felt like writing a cogent argument to put Captain Birdseye's mind at rest as to why a club that wishes to be for only one gender is acceptable but on reading the whole thread I would seem that he is, as my chum James May would say, a cock, so I wont bother.