ADD: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc (bawdy)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM

Jefferson elucidated the underlying motivations behind the separation of Church and State in Article 1 of the Virginia Freedom of Religion Act.

SECTION I. Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to exalt it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminals who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM

Herga Kitty, I think your post might be helpful for me to understand better if I had a good world atlas, which I don't at this time (to my great frustration). My confusion stems from the impression I've gotten from Bill Sables here in the Mudcat forum, that he considers himself a Geordie, and the fact that he's listed in the Mudcat locater as living in Yorkshire.

Does anyone have a link to a good on-line map of the areas in question that I can look at to see how all of the above geographic references fit together? I'd be grateful for such a thing.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM

Jesus, LEJ, old Tom sure had a way with phrase; I've never seen so many incisive observations strung so close together coming out of one pen!

I was told the story when I was young that JFK hosted a dinner at the White House for a whole slew of brilliant men of his time. And he stood up and looked this distinguished audience over and said, "Gentlemen, there hasn't been such a collection of brains at this table since Thomas Jefferson dined here alone."

Thanks so much for the post. It is worth putting up on Burma Shave signs all over the country!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:16 PM

Very True Amos... 3. Moral Principles

Morality is intimately related to a nation's government, for as James Madison wrote, "To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people is a chimerical idea." Morality refers to conduct that is proper between members of society. Respect for the equal rights of every citizen becomes the foundation of morality and justice in a free society. Rightful government necessarily reflects this proper relationship in its policies and in its dealings with its own citizens and with other nations.

"God... has formed us moral agents... that we may promote the happiness of those with whom He has placed us in society, by acting honestly towards all, benevolently to those who fall within our way, respecting sacredly their rights, bodily and mental, and cherishing especially their freedom of conscience, as we value our own." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:197

"Peace, prosperity, liberty and morals have an intimate connection." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1813. ME 13:384

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:45 PM

Can you all remember this? Back in the days of mandatory school prayer, I was in high school in a town dominated by the Southern Baptists. We students were delighted at the prospect of getting rid of the prayers; not because we were anti-religion (nesessarily) but because we hated having adults cram things down our throats. The prayers didn't make us better people; no one listened. The few teen agers who objected were mostly pollyannas and sycophants, not well regarded. When ethics are taught in school, they are always someone elses ethics. If you want your kids to know right from wrong, teach them yourselves.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:53 PM

Carol C-You are right, Bill Sables is a Geordie, he was born and raised in County Durham, but moved to Yorkshire in the 1970's. It's about were you come from, not were you are! (if I moved away from here, I would still be a Yorkshireman)
John from Hull (in Yorkshire)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

Thanks John from Hull! There's that mystery solved.

I like what you said about it being about where you come from and not where you are. By that standard, I'm a Rhode Islander. That's where I was born, and where I lived until I was 9 1/2. And I still miss it there. So what you said makes me feel a little better.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:15 PM

CarolC, dunno if this helps at all but fer starters (blind leading the blind, here?), here's a site & map from the Northumblerland County Council. Will seek more.

Click here

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:23 PM

John,ah hae a cousin in Garboldisham,is that near you?She lives oan a street caed "The Street" ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM

OOPS!! Belay that,ah jist minded she lives in Norfolk no'Yorkshire. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:31 PM

Thanks for the link The Pooka!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

Hi John, do you know where the Humber Bridge is? thats near Hull. Funny Story-well alright maybe mildly amusing!-A few years ago I was a student and we had some Excange students from America, well I got to know some of them and I took them for a drive around Hull to show them a few touristy things, as we were driving down the A63, I casually pointed to the Humber Bridge (the biggest bridge in the world at over 1 mile btween towers) and said "that's the biggest bridge in Hull over there" you should have seen there faces! one said something like " Gee, you must have some really big bridges over here" .john

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:35 AM

John, if the Humber Bridge was built before 1998, I don't think it's the biggest bridge in the world any more. At least not according to several sites I looked in. Check this out...

Akashi Bridge

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:51 AM

Having dwelt in the canny toon of Hexham on Tyne for a number of yeors, I am willing to bet that almost 100% of the denizens of the banks of Tyne , both North and south, from Bardon Mill and Bellingham to Canny New castle consider themselves to be Geordies. And one of the most asinine statements I have ever heard is "guns don't kill people, people kill people'. Stupid, or evil, or crazy people WITH GUNS[ and the "right to bear arms"]kill people. Had Hamilton been armed with an axe in Dunblane, he'd probably have managed to murder SOME kids, but nowhere near the number he finally did. I can remember some galoot in Oz [or was it New Zealand?] who did for over thirty people before he was stopped; a crazy with a gun. Some idiot [Charlton Heston?] suggested that if the head teacher in Dunblane had been entitled to have a gun in his office, the slaughter could easily have been prevented. No--such an entitlement would merely have ensured that a Dunblane would already have happened--as it has in the land of "right to bear arms," again, and again , and again and again------

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 08:33 AM

And since personal firearms are now banned in the UK violent gun related crime has increased 28%. Acts of violence are up 30% and what next oh yes we will ban all knives... Get real...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 08:40 PM

One of the most tiresome shibboleths floating around is the notion of "a constitutional separation of church and state." Anyone can read the Constitution, but in this age of television I suppose very few people read anything. If one reads the Constitution he will discover that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or interfering with the free exercise thereof." That states very clearly that the federal government cannot pass a bill saying that the Catholic church, for example, is the established religion of the United States.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:03 AM

Gosh...

I agree with everyone here...partly. Depends on what angle you're looking at it from.

I don't care much for fanatical religious systems that FORCE a particular religion down people's throats, and I don't care much for atheistic systems that deny people's right to religious expression...or ridicule it...either.

I agree that most of our highest ideals (if not all of them) may be found in the great religious texts of the world, and that conversely some or our most benighted and ignorant practices have come directly from institutionalized religion.

I believe in body, mind, and spirit, and I believe that all questions are, in the final sense, religious questions, but I have no objection to people who think they are atheists. My opinion is that they are not atheists, whatever they think about it. Everyone is religious.

Let me explain that. A person's religious beliefs, in my view, are his deepest and most abiding beliefs about what he thinks existence and reality are based upon...and where she fits into that existence and reality. (exchange genders in this text as you please...the point is the same in either case)

A person's religion rests where his faith is the strongest. Find out what she truly has faith in, what he truly thinks is real and meaningful, and you have found his religion. This includes atheists and rationalists of every kind, without exception. The only person it doesn't include is one who believes in absolutely nothing at all, and there is no such person to be found out there, unless he's in a coma.

Therefore, I say that religion is ALWAYS both the problem and the salvation of society. The question is...is it a healthy or an unhealthy form and use of religion? Or is it a mixture of the two? Most commonly it is the latter.

Example: Many people place their greatest faith in money and material goods. They believe that their salvation lies in accumulating those two things. Therefore I say that money and property ARE their god and their primary religion. Doesn't matter if they claim to be Catholic or Hindu and go through the motions...if their real faith is in money and property then THAT is their religion...not their superficial church habits. (It goes without saying that most people are not consciously aware of what their actual religion is!)

'nother example: A lot of people are religious about sex, romance, and/or marriage. It is the aspect of life in which they place the strongest belief, and on which their greatest hopes and dreams and their strongest faith rest. Therefore I say that their primary religion is sex, romance, and/or marriage.

'nother: Some people are religious about patriotism. They do crazy things in its name. The Japanese in World War II were a spectacular example of that. To them, the Emperor was a living god, and Japan was holy ground to be defended to the last drop of blood, and a kamikaze mission or a ritual suicide was their spiritual salvation and redemption in the face of the ignominy of defeat. That is the religion of extreme nationalism and the religion of the warrior creed.

'nother: Some people are religious about business and commerce. It's all they really care about or believe in or make sacrifices for. These people are workaholics and they are driven by either habit or ambition or both. Work is their religion. Promotion is their salvation. The office is their holy sepulchre. My own father is such a person, and he has sacrificed his whole life to it.

Some other common fragmentary religions: the worship of fame, the worship of youth, the worship of beauty, the worship of intellect, the worship of success, the worship of notoriety (sought by some deliquents and criminals), the worship of haute couture, the desire to be "cool", social conformity and peer pressure of every kind, the worship of political parties, the obsession with "race", the obsession with gender, any belief system that separates you from most of life and sets you apart in some "special" group of people who are supposedly superior to other people outside that group.

And one more fragmentary religion: Atheists and vigorously independent rationalists are religious about their absolute autonomy, their powers of reason, their own mind, their independence, their specific identity, and its survival. This is the rock upon which they build their personal Jerusalem. To them, "god" is their own mind and body, its powers, and its absolute autonomy and separation from other minds, bodies, and the world around it. That too is a form of religion, albeit a tremendously constricted one in a spiritual sense. Its great strength, however, is that it can foster much courage and self-reliance, which are among life's most valuable assets.

Now, most of those are pretty fragmentary religions, because they are only about pieces of life. They do not integrate the whole. And most people worship not just one of these religions but a combination of several or many of them. The question is, which are the dominant ones in any person's makeup? From those dominant religious beliefs will follow most of his actions.

Likewise, most conventional church religions are pretty fragmentary, because they cling to one narrow tradition, and one narrow set of behaviours while ignoring or denying all the rest. This is not an intelligent thing to do.

This is small thinking.

Religion should include all of life. It should include every great religious teaching in history, every great philosophical teaching, work, romance, friendship, marriage, political life, law, entertainment, science, education, art, sexuality, poetry, playfullness, raising children...EVERYTHING.

If it doesn't include everything then it's just a fragment of life. True religion is all of life, not a fragment. Find me a person who has faith and belief in ALL of life, and PRACTICES IT, and you have found an extraordinary person, an avatar, a person who can change the world. That's true and living religion.

True religion is NOT some tiny little narrow-minded sect of people who worship one book, follow one prophet, and deny all the rest. Nor is it a person who cares for only money or his career or his tiny little personal survival (doomed to eventual demise) and denies the rest.

So, my conclusion is: All beliefs are forms of religion. All healthy beliefs are good for society and will reduce violence. All unhealthy beliefs are bad for society and will in all likelihood increase violence. All healthy beliefs unite us. All unhealthy beliefs divide us. Whether people go to church or not does not concern me. Whether they say prayers or not is their own business. Live and let live.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:27 AM

Amen Little Hawk (i'm guest from another thread same subject)

From The Iroquois Confederacy the US constitution was modeled on

Religious Ceremonies Protected 99. The rites and festivals of each nation shall remain undisturbed and shall continue as before because they were given by the people of old times as useful and necessary for the good of men.

100. It shall be the duty of the Lords of each brotherhood to confer at the approach of the time of the Midwinter Thanksgiving and to notify their people of the approaching festival. They shall hold a council over the matter and arrange its details and begin the Thanksgiving five days after the moon of Dis-ko-nah is new. The people shall assemble at the appointed place and the nephews shall notify the people of the time and place. From the beginning to the end the Lords shall preside over the Thanksgiving and address the people from time to time.

101. It shall be the duty of the appointed managers of the Thanksgiving festivals to do all that is needed for carrying out the duties of the occasions.

The recognized festivals of Thanksgiving shall be the Midwinter Thanksgiving, the Maple or Sugar-making Thanksgiving, the Raspberry Thanksgiving, the Strawberry Thanksgiving, the Cornplanting Thanksgiving, the Corn Hoeing Thanksgiving, the Little Festival of Green Corn, the Great Festival of Ripe Corn and the complete Thanksgiving for the Harvest.

Each nation's festivals shall be held in their Long Houses.

102. When the Thansgiving for the Green Corn comes the special managers, both the men and women, shall give it careful attention and do their duties properly.

103. When the Ripe Corn Thanksgiving is celebrated the Lords of the Nation must give it the same attention as they give to the Midwinter Thanksgiving.

104. Whenever any man proves himself by his good life and his knowledge of good things, naturally fitted as a teacher of good things, he shall be recognized by the Lords as a teacher of peace and religion and the people shall hear him.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:42 AM

Thanks, GUEST!

From your post...

"104. Whenever any man proves himself by his good life and his knowledge of good things, naturally fitted as a teacher of good things, he shall be recognized by the Lords as a teacher of peace and religion and the people shall hear him."

Bravo. That is simplicity, common sense, and Truth. From such teachings arise a strong and healthy society, and a proud and capable nation. Nowadays, it would be "any good man or woman", but I imagine that is what they may have meant in any case, as the clan mothers had a great deal of respect and influence in tribal life, from all I have heard...and still do.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 03:39 AM

For our anonymous guest who reckons we should "get real"; I have lived a long, long time, sir, and sixty years were spent in the wilds of South West Scotland. Battles every Saturday night, guaranteed, and many a midweek stushie forbye.In all of the years in the district in which I grew up and lived, I have no knowledge of any malicious wounding or killing with a fire-arm. Aye---there were among us enough of the glaikit mentality which, had they possessed a gun, would have betrayed the fact that Scots are just as prone as any race to the evil effects of the power-trip that possession of a gun almost invariably gives. That there were no such homicides, in other words, was due to the fact that the only guns in circulation were either shotguns for sporting or killing of vermin, or junior's slug-pellet airgun. There were deaths, yes---all, in my experience, down to suicide or accident. There are few among us who, at some time in their lives, if a gun had been in their hands, would have used it. The healthiest society is the one which keeps guns under strict control. So, Mr. Guest, come down from your NRA cloud and YOU "get real" [a stupid expression, but forgive me for bouncing it back----]

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:21 AM

I too spent time there (same time frame)and there were many people with illegal guns in Scotland; just as there are millions of guns in North America that are not used to murder anyone. The will to use one to commit murder is the whole point here. I'm not in a cloud and "get real" still applies. Knives, axes (remember the ones made from roof slate and sawn off broom handles?)golf clubs, bows and arrows, bike chains etc, etc, etc...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,eliza
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

Hi... Geordies are very specifically from Newcastle upon Tyne. When I pray, I pray to myself. I have green hair and a pierced face, and the first time I ever saw a real gun I thought I was going to die of fear. Horrible horrible horrible invention,good for nothing but pain and death. x peace chaps!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 12:29 AM

eliza - All the spiritual traditions I know of assert that God is found "within", so if you pray to yourself, you may be on the right track...

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,eliza
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:38 AM

I hope so. Spirituality in my opinion can't be about being seen to be in a gang and publicly receiving approval. It should be kept to yourself, done quietly for you and your God, or your community in prayer. City communities are too diverse now for everyone to be made to perform the same rites in schools. I think it is a good idea to teach the histories of religions however; and the rest can be done at home.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM

Sounds good to me, eliza...

As for guns, they are a very useful item if one lives in wilderness conditions and has to hunt for one's food or ward off the odd lion or polar bear attack. Most country people used to have guns, mostly for those puposes, and you will certainly find no trapper in the far north of Canada without a rifle, I wouldn't think. But I agree that in modern cities guns are strictly a device for killing other people, and we'd be way better off if there were no guns at all in those places. Human nature being what it is, that's not likely to happen soon.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

lots of two legged predators who should be shot too Little Hawk. For now i prefer to have choice, not legislated unfairness towards the predators (who dont obey laws)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:31 PM

FWIW the BBC have just shown the latest instalment of Billy Connolly's World Tour of England, Ireland and Wales, in which he visited Hadrian's Wall, Newcastle and Ashington (plus the Angel of the North). The derivation of "Geordie" given in the programme was that miners in Newcastle continued to use the lamps invented by George Stephenson after miners elsewhere had switched to Davy lamps.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:43 PM

That's an interesting explanation.

The thing is, whatever the rightful meaning and origin of the term, in the absence of another name, "Geordie" and "Geordieland" has tended to be used to cover the whole North East. So is there another better term that we could use instead to refer to the people and the distinctive language they speak, and the musical traditions they share?