Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?

Subject: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: plnelson
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 12:21 PM

I'm trying to increase my collection of American and Canadian traditional folk music. I'm thinking work songs from canal-building, mining, field-work, fishing, railroads, etc, or ballads set in New England, the South, the Canadian Maritimes or the American or Canadian West, or songs from the US Revolutionary or Civil Wars, or Expulsion of the Acadians.

My two go-to sources are the Roud Index at https://archives.vwml.org/search/advanced:combined/0_50/all/t_raw_asc/_%E2%B8%9EeyJ0IjpbeyJxdWVyeSI6Ik5ldyBFbmdsYW5kIiwibW9kZSI6InBocmFzZSIsImZpZWxkcyI6WyJBTEwiXX1dLCJtIjoiT1IiLCJhdCI6InNpbmdsZVtzb25nSW5kZXhdIn0%3D and Mainly Norfolk at https://www.mainlynorfolk.info/folk/ But both of them are mainly songs originating in England, Ireland and Scotland.

But the dates most of their material was collected were the 18th and 19th centuries which were very active periods in North America, so surely we (Canadians and Americans) had lots of our own folk music?
Where can I find an index or database similar to Roud or Mainly Norfolk but with mostly Canadian and American traditional music?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 12:29 PM

Hi, pnelson. It's a good idea to post simplified URLs for Websites - to the main page of the Website rather than to a subordinate page. Like this:

https://archives.vwml.org/

https://www.mainlynorfolk.info/folk/

But if you don't, we'll try to fix 'em for you.

Here's another, based in the U.S. https://balladindex.org/

And for Newfoundland songs: https://nfldsongs.tripod.com/

Folk Songs of Atlantic Canada from the collections of MacEdward Leach: https://mmap.mun.ca/folk-songs-of-atlantic-canada/home

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 01:23 PM

The Roud Index does have lots of North American entries. To restrict your searches to these, fill out what you want to search for, then click on '+ Add More Fields' and enter in the field text '(USA or Canada)' and chose in the field within 'Country'.

Unfortunately I don't have such options on Mainly Norfolk. And it grew out of a fan page for a few 1970s English folk rock group and concentrates on English and Scottish albums with a spattering of Irish, America

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: cnd
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 01:42 PM

I would check out Riley Shepard's Master Book of American Folk Song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: plnelson
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 02:46 PM

"The Roud Index does have lots of North American entries. To restrict your searches to these, fill out what you want to search for, then click on '+ Add More Fields' and enter in the field text '(USA or Canada)' and chose in the field within 'Country'."

Thanks, I'll try those filters. When I just searched for "America" or "Canada" anywhere in the text I was getting lots of entries that said stuff like, "this song from originated in Yorkshire but was later adopted by cowboys in America"    I've had better luck referencing very specific places e.g., Halifax or Newfoundland New York.

But I don't understand why the British - with about 1/6 of the combined US+Canadian population seem to do such a better job cataloging folk than we do on my side of the pond.

Is there any good way to search Mudcat for songs with roots in specific places?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 03:18 PM

plnelson wrote: But I don't understand why the British - with about 1/6 of the combined US+Canadian population seem to do such a better job cataloging folk than we do on my side of the pond.

Well, for starters, they still care about folk music, as most people in North America do not.

As Reinhard said, you can search the Roud Index by country. You can also search the Traditional Ballad Index by country if you download the software for iOS, PC, or Mac (though the Mac version is now very fragile). Neither the Ballad Index nor the Roud Index list country of origin -- for the good reason that we often don't know it! -- but in the case of the TBI you can perhaps look at the author, or earliest collection, and infer it from that.

That aside, I disagree with your premise. Although there are a lot of miscellaneous indices out there, the two main bibliographic indices are the Roud Index and the Traditional Ballad Index -- one managed by someone from Britain (Steve Roud) and one managed by someone from the United States (me). What's more, we cooperate, and cross-reference our entries. And both indices include both British and American books, without preference for either. We index the books that come to hand. Yes, Steve probably did more English books earlier in his process, and I did more American books, but it truly is just a case of whatever we pull out of the pile. :-) If there is a weakness in the Roud Index, it's its relative neglect of Australian material and its absolute neglect of New Zealand material, but I have entirely covered the latter. :-) So who is to say which region is "better covered"?

Moreover, and much more to the point, while there are more English-speakers in North America than in Britain, this does not mean that there should automatically be more collected songs from North America. For starters, the population imbalance was much less in the years before recordings started distorting the song pool. And the British songs are older -- British emigrants to America brought their songs with them, and they propagated over here. Very few songs went the other way, because there were very few emigrants the other way. But if emigrants brought their songs with them, then the need for new songs would be less. So they wouldn't make as many. So Canada and the United States have songs of both British and American origin, but Britain has only songs of British origin.

There are also higher barriers to collection in North America. The number of songs collected in western Canada, for instance, is quite low -- most collecting has been done in Newfoundland and the Maritimes. Why? Population density. Walk ten miles around Nova Scotia and how many people can you collect songs from? Dozens or hundreds. Walk ten miles around Saskatchewan and how many people can you collect songs from? Unless you're content to collect songs from herd animals, very possibly none at all.

Newfoundland has been collected very, very extensively -- by Peacock, Leach, Karpeles, and others; it has probably been collected more comprehensively than anywhere in the world, including England itself. The Maritimes and the Appalachians have also been well-covered. But, other than that, most of the best collecting was done in Britain. Partly it's because they're more interested, but to a significant extent it's because it's easier.

I could go on with a lot of technical notes, but I'm sure I've already produced a high level of overkill. :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 02:47 AM

Just in passing Edith Fowke collected I believe US and Canada ~ John Bowden (not Jon Boden) and Victoria experts on Edith and Doerflinger worthy of mention

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:10 AM

r.padgett wrote: Just in passing Edith Fowke collected I believe US and Canada.

Primarily Canada. Nova Scotia, Ontario, the North Woods in general. She also edited various collections.

Helen Creighton collected in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and the Maritimes in general.

We've covered Newfoundland, more or less.

Marius Barbeau and others worked in Quebec.

MacLeod printed Manitoba songs.

There are sundry field collections from Canada on Folkways.

Canada hasn't been entirely neglected by any means. It's just that the collection biases toward the east.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 12:13 PM

For BC, Canada, check Phil Thomas, Songs of the Pacific Northwest, 2nd ed., and his collection deposited in BC Archives, Victoria. PM me for more.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 07:13 PM

for earlier collectors:
Gale Huntington


younger generations include

https://www.minnesotafolksongcollection.org/performers/miller-brian

Lee Murdock

George Ward

Ian Bell

there are many more, but old fart syndrome is kicking in, as in CRS lol

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 07:14 PM

ACK!

contact Heather Sparling in Cape Breton for more info

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 07:25 PM

Paul Mercer did an index years ago and lives in upstate NY

David Ruch and Colleen Donovan are working of New York state collections and are on facebook

Dean, M C. Flying Cloud: and One Hundred and Fifty Other Old Time Songs and Ballads of Outdoor men,
Sailors, Lumberjacks, Soldiers, men of the Great lakes, Railrodmen, Miners, Etc. Forgotten Books reprint.
2018. A collection of old Irish songs, songs of the sea and Great Lakes, the Big Pine Woods, the prize ring
and others.

a number of New England gals have been putting together lists of female song catchers, they are part of NEFFA, and looking for safe repositories to donate books, etc for future access and research

Subject: RE: Folklore: Canadian/US trad folk index?
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 07:59 PM

Re: New England see the collections of Helen Hartness Flanders, Eloise Linscott, Fanny Hardy Eckstorm, Phillips Barry, Horace Beck and Carrie Grover among others