BS: Why do Americans need Guns now?

Subject: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: jimlad
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:11 PM

Whilst we await news of the next massacre in a school or a workplace,or a multiple hommicide in a family home, could someone please explain why in the 21st century you folks feel the need to arm yourselves with armaments best left on the Battlefield?.

The British and French have gone home,the Mexicans are beaten,the Canadians are too nice to attack anyone, and you have completed the ethnic cleansing of the American Indian so where do you imagine the threat is coming from?.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:16 PM

Ourselves...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:16 PM

Like Pogo said so many years ago, "We have met the enemy and he is us!"

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:17 PM

Ok, boys, jimlad has stuck his head over the parapet! Take aim ... fire!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:23 PM

Ask the folks in that little Scottish village whose children were murdered by some nut why HE needed guns. I hate to sound like Charlton Heston, but, it AINT THE GUNS!! it is the attitude of the nuts behind them! If it were the guns, we would have killed each other off long ago. For example about mind sets, there are 10,000 concealed weapon permits in Maine. We are up to our asses in guns, yet, we have the second lowest homicide rate in the country; second only to Vermont. How can it be the guns?

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:27 PM

I really don't think that the image of the Unites States as an armed camp is an accurate one. I only know one person who carries a pistol at all times, and he's a bit odd. I know several hunters who own rifles that are kept locked up when not being used for their intended purpose. There is a very vocal minority that shouts out their right to carry firearms of any description (based upon a 220 year-old provision of our Constitution that is specifically refers to what was then the organized militia) and an equally vocal minority that screams their opposition to the skys. It is interesting to note that neither side of this debate has ever taken the question to the Supreme Court...I expect both sides are afraid of the possible decision.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM

I've owned several for years so do all my neighbours but noone has been killed even during arguments and property disputes why? Read Kendals post.....

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:39 PM

This argument (do guns kill people or do people kill people?) is like a harboiled egg. It looks equally good from both sides, but WILL not roll in a straight line, and thus never reaches a final logical conclusion.

I can think of excellent reasons to have a gun, and excellent reasons not to, depending on...oh...about 185,000 different factors, both local and universal.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From:
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:45 PM

Because any part of this country is the Battlefield and there is a war going on for starters. And there are many situations that require defense. mg

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: jimlad
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:45 PM

Come on Kendall

It makes sense to me that if we cant screen out the nutters like the Dunblane ****,then surely the next best thing is to take guns out of circulation thus reducing the odds against you or I meeting a "nut". Licensing guns works for us in the UK up to a point so should the US not try the same

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:48 PM

You can easily make guns in your garage, the Pathans in Afghanistan have been doing it on foot operated lathes for years. AK47's Lee Enfield, Martini Henry's etc etc

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM

To protect me from the one's who want to disarm me.

By the way jimlad, I'm am what YOU call an American Indian and I know what it's like when you lose your land to an overwhelming force and one that is better armed.

I think I'll keep my guns.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM

"I only know one person who carries a pistol at all times, and he's a bit odd."

Now that's reassuring!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:12 PM

Lonesome;

Could be a good reason for YOU to carry a gun, leaglly of course.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST,Boudica
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:20 PM

For the same reasons the Romans were always armed, jimlad.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:24 PM

I have never carried a gun except for a short spell working a security job, where it was never used; but there were times on the waterfront that I was glad to know I had it.

Americans have and will keep the right to own and carry arms. Meanwhile, it would be grand to work on some way to make such freedom unnecessary, but that won't be by suppressing it out of existence!!

A

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:25 PM

instead of starting a new thread...why not just look up the 255 other fucking threads on this subject?

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:31 PM

There will never be a society which is totally free from murder, nutcases or people prepared to abuse firearms. The reason the UK banned them - or at least personal firearms - was because it made it less likely that they would fall into the hands of mentally ill people. Michael Ryan and that man in Dunblane (Hamilton I think) may well have succeeded in killing people without guns. However, it sure made it easier for them to kill more people quickly with them. I had my gun training as a boy, but I last fired a gun in 1970. I do not intend to ever handle another one. Now there are folks who get nervous when I'm around, but that's just 'cause I drive a car...

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:36 PM

Too bad you can't pose this question to any one of the millions of people massacred during WWII, or, perhaps, even better, to the Nazi's who disarmed their citizenry through gun control legislation in preparation for the massacres.

Ditto what The Banjoest said... I'm scared of you.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Anahootz
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:54 PM

As the owner of an "arsenal" - as one of my college professors quaintly termed it - I can tell you that the last thing that comes to mind when I think of guns is defending myself or my home from the attack of another human being.

I am more apt to think in terms of (marginal) protection from bears as I fish the countless streams around my home. I would probably think of the 2 or 3 deer that I kill every fall to feed my family and friends. I would wax nostalgic about the great duck hunting in my front yard. I would think about shooting skeet, or trap, or sporting clays in the springtime.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: jimlad
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:19 PM

Thanks Amergin

You sure do know how to raise a debate to a higher level!!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:32 PM

See, jimlad, you are apparently not sufficiently schooled in the art of intellectual discussion to get this, but what the hell, let's give it one more try. The right already exists. It always has in the history of this country. So the appropriate question isn't why do we need our guns. It is: why do people like you, who apparently don't live here, feel the need to chastise us? Guns are a part of the scenery here, always have been. It is what is wrong with most of the bullshit predicates that I see put forth here on this subject. Why don't you try answering this one. What possible reason could folks that think like you have for taking my guns from me? They are not used irresponsibly, nor are they illegally gotten. In the crimes which you allude to, there is no evidence that banning the weapons owned by folks like myself would have prevented the crimes. In fact, had the laws which exist been enforced, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. We have weapons because we can. No one has put forth a decent argument built on a proper predicate that explains it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:50 PM

Right on Mick!

troll

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: RichM
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:50 PM

Don't mess with americans and their firearms. Why, each spring millions of firearms are blessed in Easter ceremonies...

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 03:04 PM

Jimlad, tell ya what, YOU can have my gun. the only thing is you will have to wait. You see the only way I'll give it up is when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST,DickB
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM

We are not the English or the French . . . America is not a homogeneous society and it harbors considerable numbers of 'do-badders'. Our borders are open and subject to a flood of illegal immigrants, some of whom are not in pursuit of the American Dream, but what you've got from your pursuit, instead. In a way, your question might be phrased "Why do the French keep an Army about?" Bitter lessons hard learned, my friend. Our 1870, 1914, and 1940 goes on every single day. I suspect you'd feel a bit differently if the Scots were still raiding your farmsteads.

The police have no legal obligation to protect any single individual; and serve mainly to record the history of some unpleasantness or other. they DEFEND no one . . . and logically, cannot. It is man's natural right to defend himself, Mr. Colt made it practicable, and for the ladies, a necessity. A ninety five pound girl with a .40 caliber pistol is the equal of any thug, provided she's taken the time to learn the basics.

These sorts of discussions are an exercise in futility on both sides - until your daughter is attacked.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 03:34 PM

Facts will never win a war against fear.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 03:36 PM

Well, Banjer, one has to wait for most things...fast food being one exception. :-)

Given my daily life as it is now, I am far more worried about a nut behind the wheel of a car than I am about one armed with a gun. Check the statistics on traffic fatalities per annum. If society completely breaks down (following some great catastrophe) then I will be more worried about people with guns...or without them, for that matter.

There are times when a gun is handy to have...but most of the time you don't need one unless you are living a wilderness existence. I have no objection to people owning them if they handle them responsibly. The fact that no one can ever guarantee that EVERYONE will handle them responsibly is just one of those things that I accept. It is impossible to legislate a risk-free existence. Life is a dangerous occupation. Matter of fact, it seems to invariably result in death...usually a premature and untimely death, in the view of the person directly concerned.

So...how shall we legislate an end to this unacceptable situation???

- LH

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

GUEST Boudica said:

"For the same reasons the Romans were always armed, jimlad."

On what do you base the assertion that the Romans wer always armed? "The Romans", unequivocally stated, means "all Romans, at all periods", and I'm extremely doubtful of both portions of that phrase.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:02 PM

Anahootz:

Remember, the Second Amendment of the US Bill of Rights isn't about hunting, although you have the right to self defense no matter what the threat.

To jimlad:

Remember what we Americans did to you in 1776 and again in 1814 with armed citizens and what we did for you in 1917 and the 1940's. In WWII we even gave you our privately owned firearms for your Home Defense.

Hey! maybe the 1776 and the 1814 thing is why the English are aways on our backs about our guns.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:24 PM

I think maybe the Banjoest is on to something here!!! The folks in the UK would like for us to destroy our arms and then when we aren't looking get their revenge for all that tea spilled in Boston Harbor...they still haven't got over all that Earl Grey washed out to sea!!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:42 PM

Hey, guys, don't be so hard on the British! They have won virtually every war they have ever fought...your War of Independece in the 13 colonies being about the only notable exception, I believe...and they lost that partly because France used its Navy very effectively on the behalf of the American revolutionaries (specially at the battle of Yorktown).

They also burned Washington down in the War of 1812, defeated numerous attempted invasions of Canada, and effectively blockaded the USA for the duration, so it's very misleading to imply they "lost" that one...it was a stalemate.

However, jimlad is also being unfair toward us North Americans, in my opinion. If he had his way, I would have to give up my Patton tank and turn in my 75mmm artillery pieces too in all probability, to say nothing of my machine guns and shoulder-launch anti-aircraft missiles. He's a dangerous bloody radical, if you ask me... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:53 PM

They did lose, were not speaking English here in America are we? :-)

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:56 PM

I used to be a gun owner. Actually what I owned was a Winchester .22 calibre bolt action rifle. Back then I joined the NRA and shot in a few matches. I got rated Sharpshooter with two bars. But eventually I came to realize there were too many flat out lunatics among the firearms crowd, and it disgusted me. I don't recall ever seeing one article in The American Rifleman about how to curb the misuse of f irearms, only pieces that would have you believe the gun control people were under the joint direction of the Kremlin and the Devil. I let my NRA membership lapse and I traded in my Winchester .22 for a Vega 5-string Folk Ranger. Good move.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:14 PM

Janice in NJ:

I get "The American Rifleman", safety and education are ALWAYS the main topic. I think your one of them anti-gun nuts that join the NRA just so you can quit.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:17 PM

Thanks for bringing the gun nuts out of the woodwork again,mate! NOT

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: jimlad
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:35 PM

To my friends in the Colonies if History gives you the need to carry guns the I respectfully suggest you White Americans don't have enough of it,history that is!To try to justify a 21st century problem by trying to relate it to an 18th century scenario is truly grasping at straws.

With regards to WW1 and WW2,you buggers only joined in when it was nearly all over.

Now Little Hawk and Janice you both sound like sane people,please form a movement.

jimlad

PS my Uncle Joe was shot through the leg by US friendly fire at Cassino,was that by a sharpshooter with two bars do yiu think?.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:43 PM

What amazes me is the lack of sympathy for the elderly and others who are set upon by home invaders who know that they can get away with their crime by virtue of the new gun laws. We didn't have two or three home invasions per week before the gun control legislation. We had virtually none. Yet, the politicians who put these laws in place which foster such crimes to abound seek to bolster their position by citing these crimes in their "figures". It's sickening to see this occurring and to hear calls for more restrictions of honest, law abiding folk. I'm for more guns and less criminals.

I'll share a good one with you. A few weeks ago in our local newspaper, two people were sentenced for drug sales. The person who was carrying a pistol (in Canada, possession of a concealed weapon is illegal - less than 18 inches barrel leghth, without a permit, is illegal, and you can only transport it to a range via the shortest route from you residence, etc, etc, etc) with the serial number filed off got an extra year. Now, in the Canadian system, that means an extra 8 months usually, and as little as 4 months with good behaviour is possible. FOUR MONTHS FOR A CONCEALED WEAPON WITH A FILED OFF SERIAL NUMBER !!! And they want me to register my weapons or be subject to two years "plus a day" in the Pen ? Goodness gracious get a grip on reality !

Oh yeah, $800M to date for gun control for honest, law abiding citizens in Canada and the criminals are smiling from ear to ear... as well as the Nazi's.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:48 PM

Colonies??? Speaking of not having enough history, please note that we have been the United States for quite some time now, since the unpleasentness of 1776, I believe.

If it was by a sharpshooter with two bars I would hope he could do better than just a leg wound!!!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:57 PM

jimlad said.... you buggers only joined in when it was nearly all over.

Not us mate. We Canucks, Aussie, NZ's and others joined the same fucking day, And WE saved your ass in the first world war and we did a hell of a job saving your ass in number two along with the Yanks. I was just at the Cenotaph a few days ago mourning 3600 dead and over 7000 wounded at Vimy... Canucks, every one of 'em, after the French and Brits couldn't mount the task.

As far as your flippant remarks against the Yanks, all I've got to say is you are god damned lucky they're on your side. God bless America and all she stands for. And BTW, that might have been a Canuck what shot your slow moving uncle at Cassino... I'd kinda like to think it was my father-in-law who was blinded by a grenade in that assualt, God rest his soul. Did your uncle survive ? Hopefully not if he might have spawned any more of your ilk.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:10 PM

jimlad: Don't you think we in the UK have enough problems of our own dealing with crime without spending our time telling the US how to do it? They became independent some time ago, as you've been reminded!

Now, if they want to bring their weapons into the UK, we have a right to object. Until then, its nothing to do with us. (And yes, before you say it, of course whenever anyone is killed it is everyone's concern, but that covers far more issues than guns in the US).

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: X
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:24 PM

Thank you gnu, and thanks to your father-in-law for his service. My uncle died on the USS Arizona. I guess YOU, jimlad, would call him a "Bugger" and that what he did was for naught because the "war nearly over". If I can recall, didn't that war last for another five years? I think the next time the Brits get thier bacon in the fire we should just let it burn. You help somebody and than they spit in your face. Boy, what thanks.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:30 PM

Here ya go!

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:38 PM

sorry that link didn't take you where I wanted you to go. So I'll just post the lyrics instead.

Time To Get A Gun

My neighbour's car got stole last night
right out of his driveway
we heard the dogs a barking
we never paid them any mind
and Mary says she's going to lock the door
from now on when we go away
and I been walking around this farm
wondering if it's time

time to get a gun
that's what I been thinking
I could afford one
if I did just a little less drinking
time to put something
between me and the sun
when the talking is over
it's time to get a gun

last week a government man was there
when I walked out of my back door
he said I'm sorry to bother you son
but it don't matter anymore
'cause even while we're talking
well right here where we stand
they're making plans for a four lane highway
and a big old overpass

Mary says she worried about herself and the kids
she's never known anybody had a gun
and her daddy never did
but I think it should be up to me
'cause when it's all said and done
somebody's got to walk into the night
well I'm going to be that one

time to get a gun
that's what I been thinking
I could afford one
if I did just a little less drinking
time to put something
between me and the sun
when the talking is over
it's time to get a gun

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:40 PM

Sorry to pop in again. I just wanted to be sure that everybody knew that that song was by Fred Eaglesmith who is great fun to listen to. If you have a chance to hear him go for it.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: jimlad
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:41 PM

we seem to be veeringinto a who won the war don't we.

My suggestion for any future war is to let us and the Germans do the fighting,the French do the cooking and the Yanks supply us and the Germans.Lets all stick to what we do best eh?.

By the way.in the Gulf War we lost more lads to US "friendly fire" than to any other factor.Eleven Scots Guards were persued for over 5 miles by an American Fighter before being executed,despite bearing the Union Flag and allied insignia.

Lets stick to the subject eh?.

Well i'm off to bed now,so goodnight and God bless.

jimlad

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:46 PM

The Banjoest... no need to thank me. There are thousands and thousands throughout the Commonwealth and the US who can tell similar stories... my old man Bill, my uncle Charles, my uncle Bill (BOTH wars), my uncle Gerry, my uncle Reg, my uncle Lori, my aunt Esther, my aunt Lillian, my aunt Rose, my aunt Mary, and, as mentioned before, my father-in-law James. And my brother Bill, peacetime, who lost many mates in Vietnam.

This doesn't even remotely "scratch the surface" of the people I know from being a volunteer at the Vet's hospital. And there's not one of them who are not truly offended at the new Canadian gun laws. Think about that. They lived the history that jimlad and others will allow to be repeated. Shame.... a damn shame so many died in vain.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM

Sleep well jimlad, and say a prayer for the Allied, Commonwealth and Yank soldiers who gave their lives for your good nights' sleep. And maybe you'll consider a prayer for the gun-toting rednecks who are keeping your ass safe tonight.

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

If you love your freedom thank a veteran..

Subject: RE: Why do Americans need Guns now?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 07:05 PM

You got that right, GUEST !

I'll just add one more thing and then go Oggy myself... If you love your freedom, listen to a veteran. History is worth learning about.