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BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend
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Subject: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:04 AM Tom Tancredo, (Republican--, of Colorado, I believe)-- the spirit behind the current push to punish all illegal immigrants in the US (who are primarily Hispanic) is the best thing to happen to the Democrats in a long time. Like the Bushites used the abortion, the homosexual marriage, and the "patriotism" issues --(implying or declaring their opponents to be unpatriotic for insufficient enthusiasm for the Iraq war)-- as "wedge issues"--that is, one that splits the opposition--the Democrats, if they have any sense, can use his campaign against illegal immigrants to firmly place themselves on the right side of a moral issue--and push the idea that the opposition is on the wrong side. Bush and several conservative spokesmen (including George Will and the Wall St Journal editorial page) have come out against Tancredo's crackpot ideas. But most of the visible spokesmen supporting Tancredo--including, it appears, a majority of the House, are Republican. Not only are the ideas of Tancredo and his ilk morally reprehensible, in the long tradition of nativism in the US--from Know-Nothingism to the KKK, and more recently the unreasoning anti-Arab fear fed by Bush---but they are stupid economically. Illegal immigrants now do a whole array of jobs Americans would not want to do. Obviously the right approach is to set out a path to citizenship for illegals--as the Senate version of ghe bill on illegals envisioned, so they cannot be exploited by their employers, as is now happening. On top of this, the punitive anti-illegal- immigrant ideas, including a 700-mile- long fence along the Mexican border, place their sponsors squarely on the wrong side of demographics. By far the fastest growing segment of the US population is the Hispanic. If these new citizens ( and any person born in the US, even to an illegal immigrant, is now a citizen by birth)--get the idea that Republicans are anti-Hispanic, that will condemn the Republicans to a minority status---for generations. Supposedly there are some union members anxious that illegal immigration is threatening their jobs. But it's clear what the direction of a solution to illegal immigration has to go. And workers in general will benefit, as will the US, if illegals become legal. Comments? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:12 AM Obviously, I do not mean to imply that being against homosexual marriage or being against abortion is in fact being on the right side of a moral issue. But this is how the Bushites sold it--- and it worked--especially among Hispanics. I've read that between 2000 and 2004 Bush increased his percentage of the Hispanic vote--and that with 9% more of the Hispanic vote, Kerry would have won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:24 PM Tancredo and his kind should be careful what they wish for. I hate to say it, but the best thing that can be done about the illegal immigrants is nothing. Bush is finally right about something--our eceonomy depends on illegal immigrants. What I am against is giving them guest worker status or helping them to become legal. The reason is simply that if they become legals, you can't exploit them anymore. We can't pay them 50 cents a day. We'd have to pay them minimum wage with benefits and vacations and what not. It would become like the auto industry where even the guy sweeping the floor is making $22 an hour. Sounds nice until you see the sticker price. Our groceries and produce would be essentially unaffordable. The best thing is, let them work those jobs if they want to for a pittance. And when you see a group of illegals working somewhere--KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!! Don't try to help them, don't try to deport them. either option is a disaster waiting to happen. Mind your own business and let them take care of themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:43 PM AR-- You really think they should be paid 50 cents a day? I hope you're kidding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: katlaughing Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:58 PM Ron, he is from COlorado Springs, a hotbead of neo-con Christians. There is a compilation of interesting articles on this at this site. AR, I, too, hope you are joking. Otherwise I'd say you need a serious attitude adjustment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: michaelr Date: 03 Apr 06 - 11:05 PM It would be great if the Dems used this as a "wedge issue". I don't hold out much hope that they will, however. It's one of those divisive topics that they've been too cowardly to take a stand on, like the crimes of the Bush administration. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM AR-- You might want to check Kat's link. Legal and illegal immigrants already do the menial jobs at Colorado ski resorts--earning starting pay of $9/ hr--not 50 cents per day--and the sky hasn't fallen. "It's menial things that people talk about, but they are very essential to how things run" said Roger Gomez, who represents GOP Rep Scott McInnis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:23 PM Some Bushite done swiped my cookie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM >>You really think they should be paid 50 cents a day? I hope you're kidding.<< No I am not kidding. They're here illegally. What do they expect? What do they have a right to expect?? If they're willing to come here illegally and work for a pittance then I say fine. Because, like it or not, our economy depends on that. I can't afford $30 for a bag of apples and that's where it's going if we make them guest workers or legals. Nobody here illegally should receive any option to become legal. If that's the case, then we should abolish legal and illegal categories and just let anyone come here who wants to and let them file for citizenship so that they can compete for YOUR job instead the ones no American wants. You'll be the first one crying foul. Then you have the problem of them getting status that might enable them to unionize and strike. Who then goes into the fields to pick our produce? You?? I highly doubt it. And it won't be me, I'll tell you that up front. So who then? Don't fix what isn't broke. Leave it be. Just shut up about it. Beatifying or demonizing them will not help them or us. Just leave it be. And if my attitude needs adjusting, then have at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM >>Legal and illegal immigrants already do the menial jobs at Colorado ski resorts--earning starting pay of $9/ hr--not 50 cents per day--and the sky hasn't fallen.<< Because no one works for $9 an hour accept illegals and college students. $9 an hour IS a pittance. I couldn't survive on it without a serious readjustment of my lifestyle. I'd lose my house and I am not exactly living in a mansion in an exclusive neighborhood. I live in Detroit. I think that's all that needs to be said about that. And a $9 an hour job would put me on the street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: katlaughing Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:52 PM Because no one works for $9 an hour accept illegals and college students What a fucking joke! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:22 PM AR-- Thanks for answering--the more perspectives we can get the better, on this topic, which should be of concern to all Americans (maybe even more than the second thread on fire trucks). I'm glad you're willing to let illegals get $9/ hr.--that's up from 50 cents. And it's also considerably above the minimum wage. In fact lots of people make only about $9 or $10 per hour. You are correct they cannot live on that--but often it's a 2-earner situation. "Compete for my job"? Are you really afraid that poor uneducated people who barely speak English can displace you? I'm not afraid. Nobody expects you to work for $9 /hr--you're a skilled citizen and a smart guy. It's to the advantage of all Americans that everybody be educated--(maybe then they'd recognize Bushite-style propaganda)--, that everybody who drives have a license, that everybody have a Social Security number and pay taxes under that number--not a fake SSN obtained by an employer. If you think illegals' just being made legal will push up wages so high that inflation will skyrocket, I think you're being unduly alarmed. It will still be a question of supply and demand--and the supply will still be coming, especially from Mexico--but also elsewhere. Some of the ski resort workers, you can be sure, are legal--but they still only make $9/ hr---to start. Why shouldn't that rise over time? Costco cashiers, in 2004, started at $10/hr--but they were on a path to be making $40,000 within 3 years--see the threads on Walmart (I can give specifics next time, if you'd like). This is really a situation where simple decency, as well as self-interest, should mean Americans favor a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants--which is not the same as the loaded term "amnesty for lawbreakers". I'd be curious to hear your further thoughts--this is not an issue which has to deteriorate into invective, a la Teribus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:01 AM >>"Compete for my job"? Are you really afraid that poor uneducated people who barely speak English can displace you? I'm not afraid. Nobody expects you to work for $9 /hr--you're a skilled citizen and a smart guy.<< I'm a guy who could lose his job just like that. And so are you. Amd there may nothing open to me but to try to land two or even three $9/hr jobs to survive and that's going to be hard to do when millions of illegal immigrants with guest worker status have taken most of them. >>It's to the advantage of all Americans that everybody be educated--<< It's no adavantage at all if the people getting the education aren't citizens. Mexico has a school system when last I checked. And a preety good one from what I hear. If these people coming here are uneducated then they are Mexico's hillbilllies and they don't even want them, why should we? >>If you think illegals' just being made legal will push up wages so high that inflation will skyrocket, I think you're being unduly alarmed.<< Tell that to those who said the same thing about unions. >>It will still be a question of supply and demand--and the supply will still be coming, especially from Mexico--but also elsewhere. Some of the ski resort workers, you can be sure, are legal--but they still only make $9/ hr---to start. Why shouldn't that rise over time?<< If they're here legally, they still have restrictions because they aren't citizens. And I favor that. That is as it should be. As citizens, they have all the same rights I do and I don't begrudge them anything. But clearly this is not the case. As long they are willing to come here and do the jobs most Americans don't want, I don't care. If they can manage a decent wage out of it, good for them. But the rules are the rules. They get caught, they get deported. End of story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: artbrooks Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:55 AM And what do you call the young lady, valedictorian of her high school class, who cannot get any financial aid to go to college because her parents carried her across the border before she could walk? What do you call her younger sibs, born in the US? How do you deal with the border regions, where families often straddle the international boundary and have lived here since long before the border existed? Is a bilingual child born in Mexico and raised in Tucson less "American" than one born in Tucson and raised in Magdalena? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 06 Apr 06 - 12:22 PM We need an honest look at the immigration problem..legal AND illegal. Right now a lot of the arguments you see are emotionally driven and based on special interests...personal and organizational. The fact is, although we DO need some specialized labor...seasonal and some otherwise....we do NOT need unlimited millions pouring into the country, draining medical & educational resources and creating demographic imbalances that will change the very structure of the laws, language, customs and economic relationships much faster and more unpredictably than we can accommodate. We need a fair, but controllable system for allowing seasonal labor, managed immigration, and reasonable green card regulation. It is crazy to try to base a policy on some notions of 'political correctness'....or on unreliable statistics. Far beyond the current security and contraband issues, we need to integrate immigrants (largely Hispanic at the moment) into the society under controlled conditions, NOT simply according to how many can crowd in. This means we have to have controls, awkward as it may be to enforce them. It upsets me to no end to see suggested policies based on various politician's ideas of what will get them re-elected! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Apr 06 - 01:26 PM "demographic imbalances" - nice phrase that. Very useful, for all kinds of purposes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: katlaughing Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:46 PM ...we do NOT need unlimited millions pouring into the country, draining medical & educational resources and creating demographic imbalances that will change the very structure of the laws, language, customs and economic relationships much faster and more unpredictably than we can accommodate. I imagine the Native Americans may have felt the same way, Bill.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:27 PM McGrath...yep, demographic imbalances can mean a LOT of things...and are handled differently all over the world. Japan certainly takes a fairly rigid attitude toward them. All *I* am trying to convey is a sense of how crucial it is to have some control over the process and not just wait while folks on both sides try to manipulate it for self-serving interests. kat.....Oh, indeed they (Native Americans)probably did! We all know why it went the way it did back then, and with that hindsight to help guide us, perhaps we can contrive a system to avoid the worst decisions and mistakes in this situation! In all situations, we cannot 'turn back the clock', we can only work from where we are now. This means making practical, fair adjustments to the situation as we find it, while avoiding an escalation of it which is likely to be less than happy for ALL parties! Ask anyone who lives in places like Los Angeles what it is like to have multi-cultural tensions on the agenda every day...in schools, in government, in prisons, in neighborhoods, in public transportation...etc. If this great "melting pot" experiment were to proceed more gradually, so that we really HAD integration, rather than ghettos and demands and frustrated, awkward band-aids on flare-ups, we might become a nation that ALL could be proud of...someday. For those in other countries who want to follow some of this, we have one newscaster who has taken this as his primary concern...you can read his take on Lou Dobbs page. I am QUITE aware that his opinions, like all opinions, must be looked at carefully, as this ain't an easy problem. ANY solution will make someone unhappy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:22 PM Bill-- It really boils down to whether you think illegal immigrants should be offered a path to citizenship or not. It's fairly obvious what Dobbs thinks--the site you linked to didn't mention a wall outright, as I recall--but it's evident what Dobbs means with his harping on "security"--as if a wall will provide that. And he won't even consider integration of illegal immigrants into US society until the nirvana of complete security has been reached. Of course he's also the one who came out against St. Patrick's Day--that's how much of a deep thinker he is. If Democratic candidates don't offer a clear choice between them and Republicans on this issue, Hispanics will look to other issues. And a lot of them are pretty conservative on issues like homosexual marriage, abortion (obviously, the Catholic church influence), and susceptible to Bushite specious appeals to patriotism, as in the Pledge of Allegiance controversy, not to mention the Iraq war--in which a lot of Hispanics are fighting. Some Democrats are already susceptible to attacks on the basis of opposition to organized religion--a la "Religion: A Form of Mental Illness". So if Democrats don't offer this clear choice on the single biggest issue to Hispanics, they will deserve what they get. At this point, anybody born in the US has automatic US citizenship. But the more we edge towards creating a large group of people living in the US but who are not on track to become citizens, the more likely we''ll wind up with problems like those of France. And mass deportation, I'm sure you'll agree, is not an option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Barry Finn Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:37 AM Mass deportation of US citizens of Mexican ancestry happened during the 1930's (1930-1935). It was wide spread & government sponsered. It was a reaction to the onset of the depression. A very large percentage were US citizens or those that entered legally by paying for there entrance before the laws changed. Many had children that were born here & they were force to leave. Many were never able or allowed to return. So it seems that those of Mexican ancentry or of Hispanic heritage are again feeling the brunt in bad times. It was fine to exploite them in better days? Instead of looking at shoring up our fences & closing us in with bigger & better walls my not look at the reasoons that folks exit one nation & look towards another. Is the US a better place for education or medical treatment? Do we offer better employment opportunities? Maybe it's the scenery or the climate? Ya! I'm sure it's all that & more. Well, when they do make there home here it's usually not in a place that you or I would want to live in. When they do find employment here it's usually not a job that you or I would want to work at. When the look for an education or medical treatment for their kids it's usually not in the places that you or I would want to bring our kids to. If we didn't have a war draining us dry & if we had the surplus we had then maybe we could play the good neighbor & try some kind of policy or system of helping out in a way that would also benifit us & make it worth while. Spending our money and getting a return in some other form is better than pissing off a neighboring nation, our largest growing minority, a decent amount of decent citizens & besides it might have us looking a little more human in the eyes of the world. Ist it just the Hispanics? There are more illegals than just them. The South East Asians, the Mid Easteners, the Irish & so on, why no hype about the rest? Are they the present pick of the litter? Come on, when times get tough we will always try to pick on someone. We have better minds (maybe not in government) that can come up with better solutions than the ones being perposed now. OR, is this just a needless smokescreen issue to capture the nation's attention from what would be more pressing issues. I'll bet Bush & company are in heaven just yucking it up, shouting back & forth over a few drinks laughing their pink little asses off, making more fuss of this hill of beans while relaxing, right now, their on vacation. It may turn out that Tancredo is the Democrats' best friend but surley is no friend to our country & should be dumped promptly. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:29 PM >>And what do you call the young lady, valedictorian of her high school class, who cannot get any financial aid to go to college because her parents carried her across the border before she could walk?<< So what?? There's millions of Americans who can't get financial aid either and I'll be damned if she gets it before them if she is not a citizen. May not be her fault but tought shit. >>What do you call her younger sibs, born in the US? How do you deal with the border regions, where families often straddle the international boundary and have lived here since long before the border existed?<< Hey, I don't make the friggin laws. They're legal if the law says they are. If the says they aren't, then they aren't. >>Is a bilingual child born in Mexico and raised in Tucson less "American" than one born in Tucson and raised in Magdalena?<< If the law says that child is legal then that child is legal. If the law says that child is not legal then that child is not legal. Really, there's no need to make a fuss where none exists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: artbrooks Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:50 PM AR282, I guess I'm ashamed that you are an American. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM "It really boils down to whether you think illegal immigrants should be offered a path to citizenship or not." hmmm...no, Ron, I don't think this issue CAN be boiled down that far. There are far too many variables and special cases to consider. Sure, you can write a clear, simple law "No one allowed in!" or "Anyone allowed in."; but neither of those make any sense. And you get the problem ...IF you offer current illegals a path to citizenship, are you then offering subsequent illegals the same path? Does citizenship go by default to those who are sneakiest, and find a way over the border? (And lucky and brave enough to survive?) Why even man the border at all if it's only use is to deter the old, lame & dumb? .....There ARE reasons to have a sane, orderly way for a temporary work force to come here, and to have a sane, orderly, process for those who wish to apply for citizenship....but there are also reasons to have ***LIMITS*** on both. No process can BE sane and/or orderly if it is not controlled! and so to "If Democratic candidates don't offer a clear choice between them and Republicans on this issue, Hispanics will look to other issues." I certainly HOPE that the Democrats don't make the mistake of choosing a platform based on 'being different', just to attract Hispanics! I have seen far too many races run on political expedience, when the platforms were essentially unworkable and soon abandoned. If you read and listen to Lou Dobbs carefully, and over a period of time, you will see that he is saying much of what I am.....that this ...you know, a bully who harasses you, knocks you down, and steals your lunch because he is poor & hungry is still a bully...the solution is not to reward him, but to head off his perceived need to bully! (I know...thats too hard!...easier to just fix an extra lunch everyday!) (what, me? cynical? naawwwwwww...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Wesley S Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM Bill - Just curious - how many years has your family been in the US ? Most of my family have been here for three generations. Except for the Native American branch. My guess is that the Hispanics that are coming across our borders now are looking for the same things our familys were looking for at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM I finished all that typing and went to fix some coffee, still thinking about how I had said it all....and it hit me that one thing I am asking is: DOES the end justify the means?...and I am saying that I seldom think it does. and that 'bully' metaphor may bother some....but I am still thinking how to say it directly without having my point taken wrong ....I'll go ponder |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:17 PM *sigh*...Wesley...that is not the POINT! Or, it is only a portion of the point. The situation is not really comparable to what it was 100 ...or 200 years ago. We were NEEDING immigrants back then..(well, we, meaning everyone but Native Americans)....now we TAKE some immigrants...from many countries... based on certain rules. We actually need very few of them. I am not against immigration...I am against the idea of absorbing everyone who doesn't like it where they are, and whose own countries just don't want...or can't..cope. Vincente Fox has as much as said...'We have more people and fewer resources than is easy to balance, so our policy is :anyone who can get to the USA is fine with us...we will make no attempt to help you police the situation!' right..."hungry? We can't help you...go see what you can do at the neighbors!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:20 PM Reguardless of what the "point" is - can you answer my question ? And how else was this country formed but for "absorbing everyone who doesn't like it where they are, and whose own countries just don't want...or can't..cope". ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:56 PM well, my ancestors were Scots-Irish...mostly Scots. I have one great-great-grandmother who was full blooded Cherokee. I have records of my family going back to about the 1820s or so, and have no idea when the first ones came here. But how the country WAS formed has but small relevance to what is possible today. We still take many, many refugees, political and otherwise...and rightly so. The population of the earth in 1700 was about 600 million; these new colonies numbered in the hundreds of thousands, (counting Native Americans, maybe a million or so...) Is it crowded where you are Wesley? It is where I live. How crowded and tense and frustrating and insecure and ecologically imbalanced does it have to be before you would call it a problem? Does the entire world have be be brought to some sort of 'equity' of population density per acre of arable land? How DO you provide quality schooling in several languages and medical care and social services to a larger & larger underclass every year? Are you willing to devote a much larger tax bite to these things? Those are not easy questions, and I'm sure there are many different ideas about HOW to answer them, but I assure you...doing it by default just because of an abstract ideal will backfire....that's a prediction. Call me in 20 years, and we'll see how it's gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 12:21 AM Bill-- Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with you-- (it's good to know we can disagree without descending to invective)--(but with no respect for Mr. Dobbs, who has just decided illegal immigration is his hobbyhorse--and he'll ride it for all he's worth.) I believe you are needlessly complicating the issue. It does boil down to offering illegal immigrants a path to citizenship--or not. You seem to think all an illegal will have to do is sneak across the border--presto, he's a citizen. Actually he will have to: 1) pay a fine ($2,000)--not easy for poor illiterates 2) prove he has worked 3 of the past 5 years in the US. Yes, documentation will be a nightmare. I feel we should err on the side of accepting documents, unless they are obvious forgeries. 3) work another 6 years-- and get behind all applicants already applying for visas. 4) have arrived before April 2001 If he arrived after January 2004, he'll have to leave. If he arrived between Jan 2004 and April 2004, he'll have to go to US port of entry, re-enter legally with a temporary work permit, pass background checks, and pay back taxes. I think proof of English ability is also in there somewhere--and it should be. It's not an "amnesty for lawbreakers". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:45 AM "If he arrived after January 2004, he'll have to leave." and who will see to it that he does? And if he does, will he come back again illegally? etc.etc....and how do folks with no papers and who have been in the shadows prove they were here before April 2001? I never claimed or even considered that "easy citizenship" was the main problem. The ongoing problem will be how to deal with those who do not fit the citizenship criteria, but still intend to come here on an 'indefinately extended temporary' basis. If proof of English ability were REALLY enforced, we could make serious inroads on part of the problem, but even around here it is not well monitored, and in L.A. or Miami or Brownsville it is a joke. What we have is 'official' estimates of 8-10 million currently illegal, and up to 20 million by educated guesses....and more millions wishing they could make it. But, as we see from today's news, the Senate cannot agree on ANY method of creating a fair system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:56 AM Absolutely right, Bill, enforcement will be an issue. And some will beat the system. But, as I said, if we don't provide a path to citizenship for illegals, we are heading for the situation in France, where they have a large group of very angry people who see themselves as second-class citizens. Not a good idea. Furthermore, every group of immigrants has enriched the US---and been opposed by people already here. Ironically enough, if there is in fact no immigration bill but the punitive one the House has come up with, what I predicted in my first post may well happen--Hispanics will be convinced that Republicans are against Hispanics--and the Democrats will benefit. Democrats will in fact not have clean hands on this either--Reid didn't even allow the test amendments--to see if the pro-immigrant coalition would hold together--to be voted on. But it will not be easy for Republicans, some of whom favor the Senate bill (including Spector and Bush) to explain the arcane workings of Congress to angry Hispanics--all the Hispanics will see is the abhorrent House bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:26 AM and there you have the meat of the problem...Almost any bill or ruling which doesn't give Hispanics what they seek will be labeled racist, and will lose votes among Hispanics who are already citizens. I have no problem with the IDEA of creating a legal "path to citizenship" for those who genuinely qualify, but everyone wants the criteria to apply to THEM, no matter what. You want to be the one who tells those just below the cutoff point..."go home"? You durn betcha enforcement will be a problem...as it already is. but...hmmm..." every group of immigrants has enriched the US--" "enriched"??? really? ALL of them? That sort of statement is often thrown out as almost a mantra of generalization. We can easily agree on the virtues of 'diversity', but diversity must always be looked at carefully, as it also has its built in dangers. I have been active in civil rights and followed the racial tensions scene off & on since 1962, and I have seen and read some things about humans that worry me. You can't just have 'diversity' and expect harmony...in fact, it is more often than not the opposite case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 12:19 PM OK ,Bill, you're on--can you name an ethnic group that has not enriched the US? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM That was unfair, I admit. Can you just name a wave of immigration which has not enriched the US? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:52 PM I was just reading about some Cambodians that grew up in America but were deported. Many have trouble adjusting to their new environment since few remember much about Cambodia and many are not picking up the language well. All of them consider themselves American. Others that were deported had to leave families behind in America. Many cannot find a societal niche after arriving in Cambodia which is still largely feudal as far as societal structure goes and so they are essentially pariahs in Cambodian society. Sounds terrible until you find out they were deported for committing crimes. When you come into my country, I expect you to obey my country's laws or get out. I've been to quite a number of foreign nations and always respected their laws. If I didn't, I'd deserve to be kicked out. The other thing about the expatriated Cambodians is that all of them could have long ago become citizens but put off undergoing the naturalization process not feeling it necessary despite knowing they were not legal citizens. Apparently, they thought that just feeling like an American was enough to make them one and could therefore break and violate America's laws. So, in the end, they get no sympathy from me. They were deported because they deserved to be. You want to emigrate here, do it legally and behave yourself while you are here. Violate either of those and you'll be taking one-way trip and I see nothing whatsoever wrong with that policy. We don't owe immigrants anything. It is up to them to show us they belong here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:57 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:59 PM Mistake. The question is to what extent the criminal Cambodians are typical of Cambodian immigrants to the US. I would guess not very typical. If so, this example is a red herring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:36 PM Ron, you set up questions in a funny way...I'd have to spend most of my answer explaining why "enriched" is a loaded term and why finding some positive aspects of any "wave of immigration" does not necessarily demonstrate that the entire situation was generally benefical. When there was a large influx of immigrants from Costa Rica and Nicaragua after wars and disasters awhile back, we got quite a large number of criminals and social misfits among some perfectly decent folks....so were we 'enriched'? Does ONE nice, decent school teacher in a group of a bunch of former army death squad members mean we are enriched? See the problem? You can have all the 'enrichment' slogans you wish....we still need a way to sort out the decent school teacher from the others BEFORE they arrive here and fade into the shadows. I saw prison officials explaining that about 90% of inmates in S. Cal. jails and prisons are affiliated with ethnic gangs of some sort...Latino, Black, White, Chinese etc....and now, even Russian..(though smaller in number). These groups cause enormous law enforcement problems just from fighting among themselves...not to mention preying on the populace in general. New immigrants, especially illegal ones, usually end up in neighborhoods where they cannot easily avoid the gang culture, and are often co-opted into criminal behavior when the promised jobs are not easy to find. That is happening even as some others are 'enriching' us with the better aspects of their varied cultures. You asked me if I could name any group which hadn't enriched us. I could ask YOU if there's any group which hasn't brought its share of problems. I repeat...we need to control the process, so as to minimize the problems and enjoy the enrichment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: katlaughing Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:01 PM "grew up in America" so, were they born here? If so, shouldn't we deport any and all criminals? If so, where to? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:44 AM Bill-- As a student of history, I'm sure you appreciate it has been ever thus. New York City after the massive Irish immigration of the late 1840's and 1850's had by some accounts the worst crime rate in the Western world. All sorts of crime was rampant in the 5 Points--excellent book on that area by Tyler Anbinder--from stolen elections to prostitution and murder. Most of the rioters in the 1863 draft riots, the worst riots til the mid 20th century, were Irish or Irish-American. Yet Irish-American spokesmen of the Catholic church opposed the riots--and were instrumental in ending them. ( Another argument for much-despised "organized religion"?) And I would say that the Irish have enriched the US, to say the least. Any argument? It's too easy to tar an ethnic group--or a wave of immigration--with the misdeeds of some. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Frank Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM Tancredo sounds like a Spanish name. They ought to stop him at the border or at least deny him citizenship. Just kidding. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM some of the Irish have indeed provided a LOT of enrichment, Ron..*smile* As you see I will not be trapped into formulating a reply that is not couched in my own terms and with the exceptions and disclaimers I require. And I am not trying to tar anyone who does not have tar already on them. Once more...today's America..(all of it...not just the U.S of A.) is not the same as it was in the 1840s...or the 1720s. Laws are different, space is more limited, travel is easier,...even monitoring and tracking procedures are more technical. We can establish some general principles of admission and remind ourselves of our basic desire to help and aid those with problems...that is a GOOD thing...but neither our space nor our definitions of 'problem' are unlimited. Over & over I am being told that we were founded by poor emigrants and have always taken in those who needed to escape situations "over there"...and I do not deny either the history or the basic attitude...and I am NOT suggesting we stop accepting new immigrants - just that we cannot do it at the current scale and with few controls. If we do not restrict and control the process now, we shall certainly be faced with MUCH more awkward decisions if we have to correct a totally untenable situation later. Preventative medicine, no matter if some of it tastes bitter, is better than emergency surgery! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:46 PM Just like they say on Wall St. The 4 most dangerous words: "It's different this time". Proof please. We don't need 11 million illegal immigrants. Correct. That's exactly why they should be made legal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM Actually, Bill-- "some" of the Irish are worthwhile? How about the overwhelming majority? And that's the way it always is--there are bad apples in any wave of immigrants--perhaps more at the start when they're clawing their way up the ladder. But they are the exception, not the rule. And they do become integrated into US society--as you know, the kids are more likely to do that than the parents. Yes, I'm aware of certain sections of Miami. etc. Do you really want to stand in the door shouting "Stop!" forever. "Don't stand in the hallway, don't block up the door." Etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:15 PM "We don't need 11 million illegal immigrants. Correct. That's exactly why they should be made legal." uhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Tell me you didn't say that!....."we can't allow leaking classifed documents...here, I'll DEclassify them" 'some' does not imply a minority...it merely designates less than 'all'. I am not qualified, (nor, I suspect are any of us) to state what % of ANY group is or was a positive influence. Do you really want to stand in the door shouting "Stop!" forever" Lovely rhetorical question...*smile* So many cute answers come to mind.. "No, I'd board up the door." "No, I'd rather stand to the side, so I don't get trampled!" "I'd rather sit at a table, examining credentials." "No, I'd shout "Hola!" but a serious answer is: It should not come to that....the door should be open, with an orderly line and 'store hours' and limitations, just like the fire marshal would enforce in a theater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:15 PM Bill-- Then it sounds like we agree--both believe the illegal immigrants now in the US should be made legal--given a path to do that. That would be standing in line. How else would you like them to stand in line? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:19 PM I'm pretty sure I misquoted also--it's "Don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall", I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: Bill D Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:16 AM No, we do not 'precisely' agree. The line 'should' form IN the home country...but even if the line forms here for convenience, I do NOT agree that **ALL** illegals should be made legal OR citizens. Blanket amnesty is just begging for problems. The requirements should be made fairly tight and TOTALLY clear....a working command of English, a work permit based on skills, not just a desire to leave their own country, a relatively clean criminal record, regular check-ins at a relevant office to report address and status changes..(marriage, kids..etc..) Yes, I am quite aware that enforcing any set of rules will disappoint many, and that it is not easy to define a set of rules which covers all contingencies...but I would allow a case-by-case review & exception process...IF it were understood that decisions were to be followed and accepted. Go to some of the small communities in Georgia that were noted in CNNs re-play of a 2004 report and see why I say that we must have something more than the chaos now in place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:35 PM Bill-- You sound like the voice of sweet reason. However: "The line should form in the home country"--are you implying all illegal immigrants should return to their home countries? If that's your plan, good luck in even getting them to come out of the shadows. With your approach, if I were an illegal immigrant, I wouldn't. Would you? That's why the only practical and reasonable solution is to offer them a path to citizenship--and I've already listed the criteria in the Senate bill--it's not a free ride. And I'm still waiting for citation of an immigrant group which has not enriched the US--are you saying the majority who came for Costa Rica and Nicaragua were criminals? Proof needed--which is not the same as a few horrible examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM "came from Costa Rica" |
