BS: Who do consider to be a genius?

Subject: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 02:44 AM

Lets clarify that and include only musical genius.

You should also include why you think they are a genius.

Is anyone considered to be a genius while they are still alive?

I think Van Morrison is a genius. He overcame all of the obstacles presented by the music industry to be heard. He has his own voice and reached into the hearts of millions. His poetry and music has endured and is being rediscovered by a whole new generation. He
continues to tour worldwide. Maybe he's just obsessed.

Is there a difference between genius and obsession?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Matt_R
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:51 AM

Mike Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:56 AM

Les Barker.

OK, strictly speaking, he is a poet, but many of his poems have been turned into songs. His subject matter runs from parodies of well known stuff; to original humour; more serious poetry and songs; monologues & travelogues; hard hitting, thought provoking satire and some downright soppy stuff.

The man is a genius in a cardigan.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:09 AM

Perhaps the term is a little over-used and should be defined first?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM

No, I think it should be left vague, to be defined by each according to his/her own criteria. You will never get agreement, and the thread will turn into a "define genius" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:33 AM

Nearly forgot. Ian Curtis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:05 AM

Van Morrison couldn't sing to save his life, he just shouts a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:26 AM

No, I think it should be left vague, to be defined by each according to his/her own criteria. You will never get agreement, and the thread will turn into a "define genius" thread.

Not really much point in using a word if there is no definition of it.

I think Paul Brady is a carrot - because he has red hair and I like red hair - and him.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:31 AM

Fair enough, define it then. I don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 08:01 AM

I am fairly sure that I am not a Musical Genius, just got a little talent but too lazy to practicse enough... but in some other areas, according to the test results...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: s6k
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 10:53 AM

well, Bob Dylan IS a musical genius and theres no real explanation needed. lyrics, songs... thats all that needs to be said really. did i mention lyrics?

id also say that leonard cohen and christy moore are probably geniuses too, for much the same reasons.

and of course, robert johnson. to have only 30 songs and have such an impact on everyone that followed has to have some kind of genius behind it

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM

I agree that Dylan and Van Morrison are.

Ian Anderson also is high on my list, musically more than lyrically, though many of his lyrics are pushing close to it. (Of course, Tull had another musician that highly complemented & embellished Anderson's compositions, Martin Barre.) I think "Thick as a Brick" was brilliant though it had some awful transitions here and there. "War Child" was superb as was "Minstrel in the Gallery". As years passed. the overall integrity of many his Tull albums suffered, though in each of them there was a marvelous gem or three.

"Divinities; Twelve Dances With God", Anderson's orchestral "solo" album was...divine. Excellent piece of work.

I have not given ear to his "Secret Launguage of Birds" or "Rupi's Dance" except for a few snippets, but what I have heard is delightful.

k

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:05 PM

Dylan I think is a good poet and a godawful singer. Genius? No way near. Christy and Van I think are excellent writers and good singers. I think genius as something innovative maybe, someone who forges their own path, without others to imitate or aspire to or follow.

Bowie and John Lydon fit that particular bill, but I wouldn't saddle them with the label genius and I doubt if they'd want it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:14 PM

Pretty hard to exclude any that are mentioned in this thread, including those to come. Of those mentioned so far, Ian Anderson stands out for me. The depth and breadth of the works of this prolific artist are simply staggering.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:27 PM

JS Bach
Itzhak Perlman
Yo Yo Ma

Any attempt at an explanation would just be gilding the lilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

I am dubious in general about any "genius" not manifesting itself in works. Or that finds self-assertion worth the thought to write it. Talent does what others cannot do; genius sees what no other has seen.

But I think we all have the power of genuine genius within us.

Sometimes I think Bobert, for example, is one.

But I don't think the condition is genuinely defined.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM

CarolC,

I'm very pleasantly surprised that you would suggest an Israeli. Maybe your old friend Martin was wrong about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:33 PM

Oh yeah. I forgot... Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

Of course he was, GUEST,18 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:59 PM

Two that readily spring to mind are Django Reinhardt and Stefan Grapelli. Having them both playing together must have been quite something to witness.
That they are still vaunted as the best of their genre 70 years later is testimony of their skill and inventiveness.
The term genius is easier to apply to big thinkers like Einstien or Newton. Music is too subjective and open to interpretation.
Some might say that Hendrix was a genius because he was the first of his type, others might prefer Elton John who has an amazing gift of being able to churn out a hit song in minutes.
There are many great musical innovators but by it's nature all music has its roots in someone elses' work, making it all the more difficult to quantify.
I can say with certainty that I do not fall into the category!

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:01 PM

Joni Mitchell

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:13 PM

Perhaps when we have decided who is a genius we could make representations to God and ask for them to be excused death as we feel they still have a lot to contribute.

Or if this is felt to be impractical we should at least make representations to our government to make sure they have a living wage. People like Django and Robert Johnson could have done with that at various times

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:29 PM

The only problem with that idea is that we don't usually recognise their "genius" untill they're either dead or rich!!
Or dead rich!
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

Musical geniuses ... here's a few that come to my mind:

Let their music and artistry speak for itself.

Lenny Breau

Bert Jansch

Wes Montgomery

Miles Davis

Hank Williams

and more ... but that's it from me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

I agree with CarolC ...Frank Zappa is the first name that pops into my mind when I think of recent musical geniuses...

But he's dead. So is John Lennon, whose name comes second to mind. He revolutionized pop music.

When I try to think of someone alive today, it's a little harder. Jim White, maybe. At the least he's the best living American songwriter that I've heard (my opinion, of course).

Historically and classicaslly speaking, Chopin and Mozart. The stuff they wrote way back when must've sounded revolutionary to audiences then, because certain passages sound amazingly contemporary to me now.

More recently in the classical vein, Charles Ives and Schoenberg. The ideas of Ives' work were being formulated around the turn of the twentieth century. Then, they were lightyears ahead of their time. It took the rest of the world about fifty years to catch up. His fourth symphony is a masterpiece. Schoenberg's (I'll probably take some heat on Schoenberg - you either like atonal stuff or you don't) atonal ideas were genius.

Jazzically - Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans. The depth and breadth of musical ideas that flowed out of them were genius.

Probably lots of other musical geniuses that escape memory at the present ...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

Same as the other genius thread.
Charlie Parker & Django Reinhardt.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM

Zappa? Not fair to the rest of the nominees. Oh, that's right... the question was, "Who do (you) consider to be a genius?" So there is no "ultimate" genius in this thread. Otherwise, the thread would be over... Frank was, is, maybe(?) will be THE absolute musical genius. Of course, many will dispute this, especially Dylan fans... "Wanna buy some Mandies, Bob?" And, no, LH, your car will not be ready by Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:26 PM

Vivian Stanshall. Yes, I know he's dead, but I would have considered Viv a genius even if I had heard of him when still alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM

JS Bach, L. van Beethoven, WA Mozart, PDQ Bach, Victor Borge, Noel Paul Stookey, Stan Rogers, Ray Charles, Robert Johnston, Tommy Makem, and, of course, Anonymous are the ones that come to mind immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

What, nobody nominating Michael Jackson?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

Are you bloody kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

Lonnie Johnson
Louis Armstrong
Carl Kress
Bill Monroe
"Dizzy" Gillespie
Mike Auldridge

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:15 PM

sorry, forgot Kenneth "Jethro" Burns

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

Viv Stanshall .... thanks for mentioning him La Scaramouche!

A genius he was. How I fondly and respectfully remember such songs as Into Outro, Big Shot and Tent.

"you got a light mac? ... no, but I have a dark brown overcoat"

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:25 PM

Changing yet changeless as canal water..
I don't know what I want but I want it now!
Tongue sandwich? UUURGHH eat WHAT?? But it's been in somebody else's mouth!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do you consider to be a genius?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

Eric Bogle, Ralph McTell and Les Barker for starters, then Martin Carthy and his daughter and perhaps the rest of their family.
I'd also include Colin Ross from the High Level Ranters, known as God in NSpiping circles.
And in NZ, Marcus Turner.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sheeney Knause
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

William Shatner, seriously. His version of "Rocket Man" alone is enough to testify of the truth of his brilliance. Of Shatner's rendition of "Mr. Tamborine Man", Bob Dylan said, "Bill took the song and made it his song."

It was Shatner who first took interest in a young Tom Jones late 1950s. Under Shatner's auspices, Jones recorded his first album, "Front Porch Pickin'", with Shatner playing autoharp & adding some harmony to the acoustic collection.

As an aside to this, when approached by A&R money men to change his style & image, Jones decided to somewhat emulate Shatner. Amazingly, Jones' emulation worked and he continued to do so throughout his career.

Listen to Jones singing on "Say You'll Stay Until Tomorrow" or "I Can't Stop Loving You" & think of Shatner. You can hear the over-dramatization, the "hamming it up" reminiscent of Shatner's acting & speech.

In Later years a "personality conflict" ended the Shatner / Jones relationship, & they rarely speak of one another. Yet, Jones, in a 1998 interview with Conundrum Magazine, stated bluntly, "Without Bill Shatner, I would probably still be in Wales tending goats."

Love him or hate him, Bill Shatner is a musical genius.

Sheeney

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:57 PM

"Without Bill Shatner, I would probably still be in Wales tending goats."


NO COMMENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM

Now that is freaky.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 12:31 AM

So, is "tending" a euphemism? :-).

I would put Brian Wilson on the list. John Coltrane and Charlie Parker have been mentioned. Phil Spector perhaps, but no genius as a hair stylist, that's for sure :-).

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:18 AM

more reflections on the genius of Viv Stanshall ....

"And looking very relaxed, Adolf Hitler on vibes.
Nice!
Princess Anne on sousaphone.
Mmm.
Introducing Liberace, clarinet ..
Yeah! Digging General de Gaulle on accordion.
Rather wild, General!
Thank you, sir.
Roy Rogers on Trigger."

selections from the song 'The Intro, the Outro'(1969)

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM

Shawn Phillips. Cat Stevens. Chet Atkins. Roy Buchannan. And now, William Shatner.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:02 AM

John Lennon and Paul McCartney make all the above mentioned pale into insignificance when considering the wide ranging appeal and breadth of their bodies of work. Of course this is merely my opinion based on a lifetime obsession.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Matt_R
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:50 AM

No other Mike Scott fans? Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: sixtieschick
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:57 AM

Again, I think genius is an over-used word. It certainly fits Dylan. Others who I'm not sure are geniuses but are definitely highly intelligent and clever lyricists:

W.S. Gilbert, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin, and Tom Lehrer.


Miriam

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:35 AM

Do factors like hype, culture and fashion really distort all this?

I wonder how many poor souls with great musical genius have lived, died and produced great music in complete obscurity?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:50 AM

Ralph Reader...

Where would the gang show have been without him

Oh we're riding along on the crest of a wave

Billy Cotton

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts

Al Jolson

You made me love you

You may scoff, but ask anybody over 80, they won't know the names you mention. But they'll know that lot, and so do you!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:56 AM

Stan Laurel.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM

Mozart....if only for his comment, "I write music as a sow piddles."

Lennon and McCartney, for the reasons noted in previous post.

Lenny Breau and Chet Atkins because they played guitar real good....and Manitas de Plata cause he played real good too.

Joannie Mitchell, because the list needs a female, particularly one who is and was 90% smarter than the males around her.

Richard Thompson and Mark Knofler, for their ability to paint pictures with music and lyrics.