BS: Isaac Hayes Quits

Subject: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: GUEST,celia
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 12:45 PM

Isaac Hayes quits over lampooning of Scientology

Double standards are a scary thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM

Scientology is a money-motivated cult masquerading as a legitimate religion, that some people have been bamboozled into actually following AS a religion.

Hayes is just another confused Scientologist-- confused, because it is, inherently, not possible either to follow or to untangle its beliefs and practices without eventually running right into the reality of the cult underlying it. The cult doesn't like that-- understandably-- and makes every effort to prevent exposure. There's even a sophisticated process, taught to adherents, on how to deflect attacks on Scientology. Many who have left have been put on lists of people other adherents are invited to harass in profoundly unpleasant ways.

How do I know any of this?

I have known Scientologists who left... Scientologists who left the corrupt organization but still follow and proselytize for the belief system... people the cult tried to snag... and secular humanists who have helped counsel and de-program them. There is ample documentation for all of the above, and if you Google you will find a lot of it.

BTW, my "intolerance" of Scientology is not based on my own religion's view of it-- my denomination, as far as I know, has no view on it-- but on my outrage over the damage done to the victims of it who I have known well.

~Susan
~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM

God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.
Voltaire

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:20 PM

Well that's just a shame because he was one of the best things about that show. Maybe the best thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

Susan,

Once (a LONG time ago) I skimmed Dianetics to see what all the fuss was about. It was worth a raised eyebrow, a "well, whatever blows your skirt up" and I put it down without much more thought.

Shortly afterwards, a really blistering exposé (I forget who did it) ran on T.V. about how the "church" routinely mounts campaigns of stalking and harrasment against any of its outspoken critics.

That was worth two raised eyebrows and a "man, y'all are LOOPY."

I mean, I can be pretty open-minded. But IMHO, that's edging a bit close to the kind of activity you'd expect from a confirmed hate-group.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

Hardly....

If he's this big an idiot, I hope they recast, and movie on, after making a HUGE joke of him...

Oh wait.... he's already done that himself....

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 02:01 PM

You can't go wrong with an 'ology'.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

Fionn, Dianetics (the process) is not quite the same as Scientology (the cult). The former is used as bait for the latter, but has aspects that some people find helpful. It's unfortunate that the helpful aspects are used to start the programming the latter depends upon.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

Right. Even destructive belief-systems have to offer "something" that seems healthy, attractive and reasonable in the beginning. Otherwise there'd BE no new members.

Well, Dostoevsky did say that the true measure of a civilized society is how it treats its prisoners. Similarly, a belief system shows its true face when it demonstrates an "oficial" stance on dealing with critics and apostates.

The track-record for Hayes' buddies is not altogether flattering.

The two South Park creators, by contrast, seem to be behaving in downright decent fashion. They could sue the bejezus out of him for breach of contract, but it sounds like they're content with letting him walk away in peace.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Notd sure if this is more funny or pitiful. The show has been free to portray God "himself" as a grotesque lizard. But when it takes on the "religion" Hubbard started after saying, in effect, "I think I'll start a religion, that's where the money is" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM

Let me get this straight - I have seen satire on a Jewish Children's camp, on The Passion of the Christ, on Jesus and Satan ( he has a talk show for Christ's sake). One Christmas Special had a newborn saviour turning out to be a demonic Bambi. Another has a piece os shit called Mr. Hanky solving the discord between Jews and Christians. There was a cow cult that led to mass bovine suicide.

And Old Isaac made a bundle in these but now he has a problem with South Park ridiculing religion?

I hope there is an episode under construction for the new season explaining his absence from the series.

WYSIWYG - you do know that there are many who claim the same about Christianity, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 06:28 PM

No, Sinsull, I forgot about every anti-religion rant here at Mudcat. :~)

Excuse me, I gotta go do a hit on a lapsed Christian. ;

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 06:31 PM

"now he has a problem with South Park ridiculing religion?"

No.. he's got a problem with them ridiculing HIS religion (Like his religions isn't ridiculous enough on it's own)

He's a FKNG hypocrite

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 06:47 PM

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored"

one of the wisest sayings of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:02 PM

I don't give a hoot about either Isaac Hayes or South Park, so you're on your own for this thread, Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:29 PM

I wasn't referring to Mudcatters, Susan. I know two psychiatrists who do exactly the same for people traumatized by Christianity in their childhoods. Not a criticism, an observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:12 PM

I've known and helped people like that, too, SINS. I would offer the observation that it is not Christianity per se that has caused the trauma, but the bent view of it and/or the people forcing "belief."

I think there are some other differences between Scientology and what you reference; Christianity did not exactly start as a bamboozle-- although sometimes its ambassadors make it look like it did.

Also, Scientology (the cult) is ALL about the money, throughout its empire; Christianity in most places-- the places I know from direct experience-- is not. If it is-- I'm still waiting for mine.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:29 PM

They promise you eternal life in heaven after you're dead.

If you buy that, I'd say you've been bamboozled.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:30 PM

Susan knows precious little about the subject, although I am sure she knows people who have been betrayed or hurt by the organization, which is a mishmash of misbegotten demi-beings. However, I suppose I could find a good number of young children who have been hurt by abuse on the part of organized Christian leaders, as well. That would hardly lead me to assert that the entire realm of Christianity is perverted, on that grounds alone.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:33 PM

Yes, Amos, do tell us what you know about it. But tell us all-- don't tapdance around it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:21 PM

I hear he's a complicated man and no one understands him but his woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: bobad - PM
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 09:41 PM

Interesting article on scientology in Rolling Stone mag.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9363363/inside_scientology?rnd=1142130986625&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.872

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:29 PM

Just saw the offending episode. Aside from Tom Cruise coming out of the closet, it wasn't even very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 09:47 AM

The programming to smear persistent "attackers" of Scientology is so deep that people who have been programmed that way just can't resist outing themselves or making themselves look silly to the non-programmed. Even when it's against their own best interests to get into it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 10:01 AM

Ewan MacColl once said that you could tell how important money was to God by the people he gave it all to, you can tell how seriously to take scientology by all the famous wankers who joined up for it.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Windsinger
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 10:04 AM

:::snicker::: Cluin. :)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:31 AM

OK, it's time to learn Martian. Consider the effects on those who followed Valentine Michael Smith.
Power is a matter of understanding and, in the case of Scientology, blackmail.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:38 AM

Eric the Red: Ewan MacColl may have written Dirty Old Town and Shoals of Herring, but he certainly didnt come up with that money/God saying.
   Some 18th century satirist(cant remember his name) said it, referring to Francis Charteris.
Mind you, he might not have been the first to say it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:54 AM

Further to my previous post, I've just looked up the quote I was trying to remember. It was by the Scottish humorist John Arbuthnot, writing c 1730. He was composing a magnicently insulting epitaph for Francis Charteris, a notable shitbag of the time.The relevant section reads:

"Oh! Indignant reader! Think not his life useless to mankind. Providence connived at his execrable designs, to give to after ages a conspicuous proof and example of how small estimation is exorbitant wealth in the eyes of God, by his bestowing it on the most unworthy of all mortals"

They don't write insults like that any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

One wonders how they're going to write him off the show. There certainly is more focus on the show now, and lots more people will watch those older episodes taking the piss out of other religions and the one on Scientologists. He couldn't have done more good for a show that is popular BECAUSE it pisses people off.

Now, maybe they could kill Chef, but it might be better for him to have an accident that changes his voice. What's Michael Jackson doing these days? (Bye Bye, Chocolate Salty Balls) Or maybe Chef could go through puberty a second time and come out with a James Earl Jones voice. (I don't think he can sing, though. ) Maybe they could discover he's an illegal immigrant and send him back across the border to Canada.

(SINSULL actually HAS the Mr Hankie action figure!)

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 02:09 PM

Got my Scientology warning today via PM. Can't wait to see the smear attempt.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:05 PM

Whoever is issuing the warning may want to take a look here.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM

Anything can be lampooned.

Anyone can quit.

So, what's the big deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:18 PM

I understand that the US Marines take a dim view of people leaving the cult on their own recognizance too... (They must think they own their people, body and soul, eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM

As to people who have been involved in Scientology: I understand that Amos was. He is one of the finest people on this whole damned site. Didn't hurt him one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM

Some a these here cults can be awful durn tetchy & teejus- lookit Pope Torquemada I - OOOPS, I mean Benedict - goin' on recently about the Eagles bein' the Devil's Music & such like.....

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:26 PM

"Anyone can quit.

So, what's the big deal?"

If you read the article I linked to you will see that there is a price to be paid for quitting.

And don't you think that people receiving warnings by PM is kind of creepy.?

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:30 PM

Yep. But that type of thing is not restricted to Scientology, and some posts on this thread seemed to single out Scientology as though other organizations didn't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:58 PM

I quit the Unitarians, and someone burned a question mark on my lawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 08:30 PM

Was it done upside down Bill? That could be a bad sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Windsinger
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 08:33 PM

Or was it a lower case "t" (as in, "time" to leave)?

:P

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 08:35 PM

Or by someone who writes Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM

FWIW South Park harpooned, lampooned, skewered, sliced, diced, roasted, toasted and totally dissed the Mormons. Episode almost made me pee my knickers. Didn't see Donny Osmond quit the show, did we! (What's that? Donny's not ON the show....oh....nevermind).

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 10:31 PM

Now THAT one I am sorry I missed!

I have an Irish-American friend who was a Catholic priest in his 20's. He quit, after much soul-searching, because he couldn't agree with the Vatican's archaic policies. For this he was ostracized by his whole family, and his neighborhood, and literally everyone he had known in his youth. It was as if he had been excommunicated. This was in the late 60's.

Another cult in action? I'd say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Alba
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM

I have been thinking about this, not a helluva lot you understand just thinking.
I have come to the conclusion that Hayes isn't leaving because of the episode that slagged off scientology.
I think he is leaving because the South Parks Guys took so long to actually including scientology in an episode.

The Episode "Super Best Friends" covered quite a bit of turf when it came to Religion and beliefs.
It had Jesus, *Muhammed*, Krishna, Joseph Smith, Lao Tsu and Moses...The Super Best Friends. (* that got me thinking a bit actually)

So I think that Haynes and his lot are just p'd off that it took a few years before they got the nod.
Hayes didn't have any problem cashing the check for his work on the show through the years as one of it's Writers said.
So I think it is more that South Park didn't focus enough on Scientology rather than it focused on it at all:)
Hayes leaving won't change the show one bit. I think Chef will stay and someone else will do the voice...if Chef does go though it will be way OTT for sure.
They are running the Scientology episode just before the start of new Season I think...just to rub it in.

Just a thought I wanted to share with you all before my bedtime...

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife sans Cookie
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:00 AM

I really don't want to bring down the wrath of anyone but....(watch me do it anway!)

When I was involved in Science Fiction publishing, The publishing arm of the COS was a client of mine. I came to be extremely close friends with a number of Scientologists, some of them highly placed. I even dated one fellow in The Church for a time. It was not a big deal that I was Catholic.

Over time, a few of these people left the Church and experienced virtually none of the lengendary harrassment described here. I'm sure there is some conflict between the CoS and ex-members, but from what I've seen up close and personal, it's a little hard to believe that they have Death Squads and so on. I did see one marriage break up over the wife's choice to leave but it was a marriage that would not have stayed intact even if she stayed. The Church-member husband wanted the marriage to survive and it was the ex-member that filed for divorce. Neither spouse was obviously hassled by anyone in the CoS.

I never met L. Ron Hubbard himself because by the time I came to the account, he was older and ill. I did however, have very close and deep friendships with people who knew him from his youth right on up through the writing of Dianetics and beyond. I've read a fair amount of the books that most people describe as Cult-ish and all I see is a synthesis of a large number of world faiths into what Hubbard thought of as a unified approach.

I've stayed at The Manor Hotel, taken a course or two at the Celebrity Center, even toured the Purification Run-Down facility and found nothing evil there. I've even had an E-meter reading that was interesting even if it wasn't all that helpful. I've gone to dozens of events at Author's Services (The agency that handles Hubbards Literary estate and that administers the Writers of The Future Contest) At no time was I ever lured into Scientology or even proselytized to. The only time they ever spoke to me directly about Scientology was when I asked questions of my friends. And when I did, they answered me honestly and gave me literature if I asked for it.

I'm not defending the tenents of their faith because I don't really buy them. I'm just saying that if Scientologists were the predatory and evil organziation they are made out to be, wouldn't I have been subjected to their alleged programming techniques?

I've met Issac Hayes at some of those events and John Travolta and some of the other celebs that are supposed to be controlled by the CoSW. They were all articulate and independent artists who seemed to me to be adults practising their right to worhsip as they please. As I said above, I know a number of former Church members as well and socialized with them as they were leaving. Perhaps they were exceptions, but they were not harrassed.

If I had any criticism of my friends who are in CoS it's only that they don't choose to see a difference between legitimate medications and "Poisonous" medications or drugs. of course, I could say the same about my friend who is a Christian Scientist.

Of course all of this is only my own experience. Still, I believe in terms of actual social contact with Church members, I've had more than most people. I just find it hard to believe that all the 'normal' scientologists I've met are the exception and not the rule. Every Church has it's screwier members and loose cannons. I'd guess Tom Cruise is one of their screwier members.

Heck, when I was growing up, my Mum dragged me around the lunatic fringe of Catholicism- healing masses, speaking in tongues, prophetic messages about the end of the world, Marion apparitions in Bayside Queens, and so on. If all anyone ever read about Catholicism were exposes on Audrey Santo's mother, The Sex Scandal, The Blue Army and their Sede-Vacantsists - they'd assume all Catholics were nutcases and "programmed" to believe weird stuff.

The one thing the Anti-Cult movement seems to assert over and over is that none of us can be trusted, even in adulthood, to decide for ourselves whatever we want to believe if it differs from what our parents, family or close friends believe. If we change our beliefs from those we were raised with, we were 'duped' or 'programmed.' The movement was begun by parents appalled at their adult childrens' choices. In some cases, their alarm was understandable. Sadly, the movement adopted questionable methods (Kidnapping AKA Deprogramming) and after some convictions, lost all credibility. I say sadly because I do believe that there are grifters out there masquerading as Gurus and it would have been nice for there to still be a place for troubled families to get help.

All you have to do is look at Rick Ross's Anti-Cult site to see what I mean. To Ross, anything that's not Christian and Protestant is a cult or a dangerous cult. He labels so many legitimate churches as cults you migth want to check to see if you too are a cult victim. unbeknownst to you!

The way I look at the US Constitution, you are free to worship as you please (or not worship) even if it freaks some people (and your parents) out.

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:26 AM

Actually, Susan is talking about a PM I sent her, where I told her I thought her ill-informed remarks about the nature of Scientology were beneath her, and asked her to keep the peace and knock it off. It was not a warning. I have no warnings to send anyone who wants to shoot their mouth off.   But she chose to re-frame it that way for reasons of her own. Like Dave's wife, I have known many members of Scientology, as Old Guy will be glad to point out, and they were mostly among the most decent folks you could want to know, much like Mudcat.   

But the organization does have a history of being extremely litigious and, in my own opinion, not living up to the merits of their subject, which is a very different thing than their reputation for money-hunger and enemy-bashing would indicate. Oddly enough, much like Buddhism, it is a body of observations that requires no "worship". Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I concur completely with Dave's wife's last sentence.   

A

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:30 AM

Here we go, the ' apologists ' are turning out now.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 05:17 AM

L Ron Hubbard's ship 'The Scotsman' was kicked out of Hull dock would you believe, and then also Gibraltar. Where you serving serving on it at that time Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Isaac Hayes Quits
From: Alba
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:22 AM

Just a wee aside here, I read a long time ago about The ship Ted mentions. Being drawn to her name..**BG**. She was to be part of Hubbard's 'Sea ORG Fleet' and was, when purchased by Hubbard, registered as 'The Royal Scotsman'. A former Irish Channel Cattle Ferry.
Due to, shall we say, difficulties obtaining permission for her to sail they reregistered a bit too quickly and her name was misspelled and so she became 'The Royal Scotman'!
I think she ran aground somewhere! I can't remember and I don't think that Issac Hayes ever sailed on her either:)
(Notice my pathetic attempt to return to topic..*small grin*

As I have said before somewhere or other, maybe here on the Mudcat, or maybe I said it somewhere else. Anyway, I know I have said at one time because it is what I feel, what ever makes YOUR Boat float when it comes to what YOU believe, don't Believe, Worship or don't Worship because it is none of MY Business
I will however retain my right to read about and investigate various Ideologies/Religions and their claims and arrive at my own conclusions regarding what I read and if I feel the urge, I will also exercise my right to verbally air my own conclusions regarding said Ideologies/Religions and their claims. Then again I don't often feel the need or urge to discuss my opinions of other people's choosen paths. .but that's just me.

My best to all as always
Jude