BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:26 PM

Mither reminds me strongly of the parody of "the Red Flag".


"The working class
can kiss my arse
I've got the foreman's
job at last

Those out of work
And on the dole
Can stick the red flag
Up their hole"


Who are "the Special Brew elite and A&E frequent flyers' club" except those less gifted than he at climbing on the corpses of the hopes of others?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:32 PM

To be honest, neither am I.

Opting out through choice and being on the shitty end of society's stick are two different things though. it is low expectation that gives us many of society's ills. Not all, but many of them.

The Dutch experiment may deal with a few of the former but other than accepting the latter will always be with us, I'm not sure any overall solution is either viable or obtainable. Raising expectations of your own self esteem is hard enough to achieve personally, let alone apply it to huge numbers of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:36 PM

Conflating Blue-man and Eliza is not fair.

Eliza is giving her point of View with Passion and conviction.

Blue-man is here to wind you up

That's why he started the thread.

Eliza is as much a victim of his poison as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM

Ditto that Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

"Opting out through choice and being on the shitty end of society's stick are two different things though. it is low expectation that gives us many of society's ills. Not all, but many of them."

I have very mixed feelings here. I've known a number of people who espouse exactly the same philosophy as you do. Highly driven and self-motivated individuals, who had no time for the residents of the slummy estates that they left behind in their quest for a life less shite..

And I can empathise with that, to a degree. I don't strongly identify with those (including family members) who remain bogged down in those crappy built-up environments (albeit, as I say, not so bad as northern sink estates) and yet I also KNOW the reality of the working poor which makes it harder to subsist on a low wage than on benefits.

But neither was I able myself (through compromising health issues) to fully break free personally, as once upon a time was my presumption. So I never did as you did and found a brighter way. But I found a middle way, and there are no holidays abroad, no fancy delis, no expensive goodies (certainly no plasma TV), no smart new shoes, no new white goods when they break down, in point of fact, there's no fucking nada..

But hey, at least I'm not surrounded by seven kids on some shitty estate!

So I recognise the binds many people find themselves stuck in.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM

I only stated that the young women had illegitimate children because that was always the case among those I had contact with. That made them vulnerable and alone, especially as the fathers of their children were in prison. If a woman has a partner or husband to help her, things are often more stable. If I'm going to be labelled a pocket dictator for sincerely posting my views (AND my not inconsiderable experience with the very women mentioned in the thread title), I think I will make this my final posting. It seems that one becomes the target for nastiness and unfair, undeserved 'labelling', when all one is seeking is an interesting and stimulating discussion. It's very discouraging.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:18 PM

Lively Lass, I agree with almost all you say...you obviously know exatly what you're talking about.

I hope you dont mind me saying,that I think you express your feelings better than anyone on this forum.
Your posts are a delight to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:29 PM

Illegitimacy is little to do with being vulnerable and alone. There are plenty who are vulnerable and alone despite marriage, and plenty who have been protected and fulfilled despite their parents not being married to each other. The nasty unfair labelling is what you, Eliza, have done. Most of what you have posted has been a blame game. Just like the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:03 AM

Poor buggers will get nowhere whilst the chatterati make broad brush pronouncements about people without fact.

Livelylass reckons that because I see personal aspirations being low as being part, not all, of the issue, that I therefore must have "no time for the residents of the slummy estates I left behind." Really? I wasn't aware I ever lived on a slummy estate, but there you go. Not having time for others doesn't quite describe my activities these days, but there again it never did.

Bridge starts singing The Red Flag, rather predictably. I never knew the words were so good Bridge? Must listen to them in future. Or perhaps I might see if I still have a 40 year old copy of The Ladybird Book of Rugby Songs. zzzzzzzz

I once shook hands with the poor you know. Just thought I would state that, so I can join this rather interesting club of patronising... no, on second thoughts, climbing on the corpses of the hopes of others seems to sum me up, if it makes you feel smug and self righteous by saying so. The last time I allowed anybody to climb over my corpse, it was when he presented his legal bill.

After all that, Bridge then states, in a rare moment of clarity, that others have indulged in unfair labelling and playing the blame game. Make your mind up Bridge. I have seen everybody being blamed here from Th*tcher to a single Mum. Some of the posts on this subject by various people seem to have a target and a firing solution. I find it rather depressing. Luckily, hot air has no bearing on those seeking to improve if not eradicate the situation.

Sanctimonious bullshit may not be part of the problem but it sure ain't part of the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:38 AM

Look up "parody", Mither, if you truly don't know what it means. Trying to legitimate exploitation is not part of the solution, it is a large part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,The Rhombus ov Dooom
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:53 AM

Shock! Horror! The riot-torn streets of Inferno England are amock with revolting single mothers and their hideous goblin-like malnourished and ill-educated offspring. Who will save us from this unholy & immoral harrying of all things decent and noble?? Flee to the hills least they murder us in our beds!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:24 AM

I did look up parody a long time ago.

I wouldn't be able to pretend to have a debate with you otherwise....

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:17 AM

In that case you need a new dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:24 AM

Keep banging the rocks together.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Can you keep time?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

"Livelylass reckons that because I see personal aspirations being low as being part, not all, of the issue, that I therefore must have "no time for the residents of the slummy estates I left behind." Really? I wasn't aware I ever lived on a slummy estate, but there you go. Not having time for others doesn't quite describe my activities these days, but there again it never did."

Not quite Ian, perhaps I phrased my post poorly but I was thinking of specific individuals I know who espouse a similar philosophy to yours, etc.. I made no presumptions about either *you or your background*. I was comparing aspects of this discussion to discussions I've had at other times with others I know. One guy who came from an estate in Glasgow thinks people who take heroin are "stupid". The simple maths being: he never took heroine, he got out, he became successful! They took heroin, they stayed where they were, they are not successful! Thus unlike him, the only difference between them, is that they are simply stupid. And because they are stupid, they aren't worth wasting breath over.
Either way, I think I've had enough of this thread..
Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:54 AM

Keeping time and having time are two different things.

I doubt I have time for your automatic assumptions regarding the motives of anybody who doesn't orbit your planet. Some of those you patronise may wish to contribute to society and others may wish to consume from it. Some of those you blame for all society's ills may be altruistic and some may fit your description.

Reading your rather silly Red Flag contribution made me think. If I was ever daft enough to take your contributions seriously, I might think you were calling me Uncle Tom.

Legitimising exploitation? I enjoy doing the odd crossword as it exercises the brain, but at least there is an answer in a crossword. I fear your waffling has an irrational ending so as much as I enjoy the attention of such a learned legal person without getting the bill afterwards, I have to choose between trying to understand your logic and nailing jelly to the ceiling.

Nurse! Get me my step ladders...

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:02 AM

It seems that everyone tends to stereotype very young mums as coming from rundown council estates. The picturesque Isle of Wight has it's share of underage mums too. The employment situation is pretty dire apart from seasonal hospitality work or working in care homes there isn't a lot of scope for young girls who aren't very academic. Seeing it from the girls point of view getting off the Island is hard enough and a baby gives them benefits that they would not otherwise get. It is sad that they can't see further than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM

"Shock! Horror! The riot-torn streets of Inferno England are amock with revolting single mothers and their hideous goblin-like malnourished and ill-educated offspring"

actually those were Weevils, sorry about that, but we do have the matter in hand, honest.

BTNG aka Captain Jack Harkness

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:02 PM

Anyone who believes that bringing up children alone in a council flat on benefits is an easy option is not really thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:43 PM

Richard, you're right, it isn't any easy option, it's the same here in Canada, and exactly the same criticisms are leveled at the so-called idle poor.The saying "walking a mile in a persons shoes" comes to mind, tht is if you can afford the shoes in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:24 PM

"Anyone who believes that bringing up children alone in a council flat on benefits is an easy option is not really thinking." Rubbish, clearly there must be the odd one stretched out in the back seat of a beat up Volvo.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:38 PM

"you express your feelings better than anyone on this forum.
Your posts are a delight to read."

Eh, well it's nice to know I have a fanclub Ake! x ;)
I do have a bad habit of stalking threads that I have strong feelings about though, and the things I have strong feelings about will often be those things I either have direct experience of or have other close interests in. Mainly issues affecting the working classes today (checks her bank balance) and women from working-class backgrounds in particular (checks her anatomy).

All pretty self-centered stuff arguably..




(PS: Missed this before)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

Do you believe that there may be people too mentally damaged to hold down a job but not damaged enough to put under care?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:17 PM

there are those who will persist in stereotyping, as I said, it's the same everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

Do you believe that there may be people too physically damaged to hold down a job but not damaged enough to put under care?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: mg
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:37 AM

I think there are huge numbers of people in that category..physically, mentally..or other problems such as lack of education and training in specific trades (some of which need people badly)...an expectation that there will be too much discrimination and too few opportunities..a feeling of being defeated and not being able to look. There are huge numbers of people who would work and who want to work and need probably state-assisted employment..some of which could offset their benefits. There is no shortage of work that needs doing, no shortage of people who could be trained to do some of it..and some people could take advanced training and education. We make it harder than it needs to be. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM

Regarding the people too mentally damaged to hold down a job but not damaged enough to be put under care...

Sadly, we have somewhere to put them.

They drift into the prison system. Prison healthcare is something I have been involved in at the edges as it were, for a while now. It shocks me (and, I note, collective magistrate voices) that lack of access to care leads to petty crime, leading to habitual petty crime leading to prison. I recall a conference a few years ago debating personality disorder and whether the NHS should have a role as their input is neither curative nor palliative. (In other words, the condition isn't medical enough.) As there is no other agency, the judiciary pick up the pieces, after the event...

Anyway, not about teenage mothers per se, but if we can't look after the more vulnerable in society as well as we would like, we need to try harder in all areas. We don't need to blame big business or the school a politician went to, we do need to get better and smarter.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:39 AM

Gobsmacked! But of course it is the post Thatcherite system, the parties of big business that are in fact to blame, not minor carelessness. They set it up that way, with "Don't care in the Community".

What I don't see, Mither, is how you can say what you just did but buy into the "Keep their hands on their ha'pennies" and "Why should we pay for their sex lives" approaches to teenage mothers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:21 PM

If you're going to quote me, at least quote Ian Mather. I wonder if this Mither bloke buys into "Let them eat cake" because I sure don't.

Don't care in the community (at least we agree on the same parody of title) was underfunded. Just that. Underfunded. Not politically set up to fail, not anathema to the prevailing government, just underfunded. Stephen Dorrell admits how wrong they were with the business case taken to the treasury. I'm certainly not an apologist for Tory government, but we can never even begin to address any issues by handbags at ten paces. This is why Blair, as much as it must have made his guts wrench, shook hands with Gaddafi. This is why Major set up the good Friday agreement. There comes a time when ignoring the other side because you suspect their motives just aint going to get you any further.

So blaming one government when successive ones, including your glorious socialist brothers, (Blair.... Alan Sugar.... Robert Maxwell....) haven't exactly shone in the "care in the community" awards ceremonies (!)

If a party of big business was to put their philosophical ends into play, they would not have shut the asylums, they would have sold them off to run at a profit. Care in the community doesn't sound a business friendly solution to me. Perhaps, just perhaps, it was a well intentioned ill scoped policy, just like many others from successive governments.

No? Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:20 AM

That doesn't wash because for the asylums to run at a profit someone would have had to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 04:00 AM

The government would have paid. You are quick to say "this lot and Th*tcher" are quick to feather the nests of their big business backers, so just apply your own logic and instead of not washing, it looks Persil white. (Grubby all the same.)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 04:05 AM

something some might want to think about, although likely those who should won't:

The rich are different

(And it is just one researcher's opinion, of course.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 05:59 AM

But, unlike the Daily Mail, based on researched facts

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:16 AM

What about the boys or men in all of this? This reminds me of the early days when finger of blame was pointed solely at the girl. Everyone should be taught to be responsible for themselves in an ideal world but it isn't always as easy as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:32 AM

Oh, the authoritarians and moralisers here wouldn't like that, Patsy. They like the old ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:08 PM

""What about the boys or men in all of this? This reminds me of the early days when finger of blame was pointed solely at the girl. Everyone should be taught to be responsible for themselves in an ideal world but it isn't always as easy as that.""

Precisely Patsy, and since there are two people involved in producing a child, then both should be required to take a share of that responsibility, regardless of whether either, both, or neither, want a continuing relationship.

Don T.