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BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science
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Subject: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:08 PM Some of us in hotter, dryer climates do xeriscape gardening, others don't need to. But everyone who putters in the garden makes choices about what to plant, how to prepare the soil, how much maintenance they want to perform to maintain this plant, this garden, this look in general. I wish I could grow all of my beloved Puget Sound plants down here, but the cost in time and money and bed prep (to say nothing of water) would make it an absurd proposition. When I moved into this house it had minimum landscaping--an ugly hedge against the front and a beautiful but vicious wild rose at the back. I ended up killing off both (the hedge on purpose). I've studied Texas native plants, I keep in mind how large they are supposed to get, and I really like texture and contrast in the yard. I have one bed with a variety of evergreen plants, all sorts of different shades of green. Few flowers over there (the Silverado Sage does this wonderful lavender bloom every so often, and the rosemary perks up after a heavy rain). I don't typically add extra water to that bed. Other parts of the yard are for different kinds of plantings, and there are a few zones where more tender stuff goes (where there is enough light or shade, where they need more water and get it because of my foundation soaker hoses, etc.) Whatever I do, I want this yard to be friendly to the large array of wildlife that I find here. So I have permanent zones for nests and tarantula holes and bunny nests in thickets, etc. I'm also working on creating some shady areas. We're only beginning to get to the point where understory plants might survive. I'm about to take on an ambitious new project. I've identified two sections of the yard that are completely surrounded by concrete borders. One is fairly large. In theory I can dig out the Bermuda and after a mighty struggle, keep it out. The plan is to lay soaker hoses in parts of this area for some tender things (not all identified yet, some annuals, some perennials) to maintain them without the waste of sprinkling. What are you doing in your part of the world to garden in sync with your climate? And how far will you go to keep some favorite, but perhaps inappropriate, plant in place in your garden? What wildlife lives or visit your yard? Do you plant to attract animals and insects, do you put out baths or feeders for birds? I'm asking now because my first irises opened this morning and we have a new iris bed I put in last year. I hope you'll post photo links and offer web or book citations and there are a few folks who share seeds and cuttings. Oh, shit. The tornado siren. Spring in Texas. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:53 PM Too bad Bobert's all messed up or he could tell us about that expanse of garden around his new place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:15 PM A lot of the time I don't do anything 'cos it's too cold, wet & windy! But I have planted quite a few shrubs/trees for wildlife & shelter from the W. Seaboard gales in Co.Clare, Eire (Hebe, Escallonia, Olearia, Fuchsia, Buddlia, Box). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:18 PM Well, yeah, I'm messed up but I've had me 3 beers for pain an' so I'll share a little... We are in 6-B which is kinda a pain because alopt of palnts we love are 7-A plants but with that said we do trick some of our plants... Our Camillias aren't supposed to live here but by putting them on the north side of the house we keep the sun off their bloom buds in the winter... Tghis is important because the ice aqctaully portects the bud... Ohter camillias have their very own cages made from dence and micro-foam... These guys spend the winter in these tent/cages and come 'round this time of year are ready to jump the heck out and bloom, bloom, bloom... But the real secret to keeping plants happy is mulch... No, not that double shredded hardwood stuff but ground up leaves and pine straw... This combination works great... Lets the water in the ground keeps it there... In veggie gardens we mulch with straw... About 6 to 8 inches of straw and no weeds and no watering... Yerr stuff will grow very well if your soil is prepared right which means: Lime, chicken manure, last years straw which all get plowed in in the fall and then tilled early April... We have a guy who tills everyone her in the holler... He uses a 6 foor tiller behind his tractor and charges about $40 per garden... Ours is 80X40... Then the cold crops and poatatoes go in but nuthing else until the soil gets up to 'round 80 degrees... Planting stuff in cold soil just don't work... Lets see... Did I mention the imporatnce of mulch??? This goees for all plants... My beef with commercial shredded mulch is that when it breaks down it bvecomes hard and won't let water thru... That ain't no good... Plants like water... The shreaded leaves break down and become compost... Of yeah... Compost... Don't let nuthing organic go into no landfill... Compost it... We use a tumbler composter that will make beautiful compost outta just about any organic matter... But if you don't have one you can just drive three t_stakes in the ground, put chicken wire round three sides leaving the front open and just put yer leave, grass clippings, kitchen scrapes (including shrimp shells) in therr and turn it twiwe a week with a pitch fork and you'll have great compost... NOTE: If you use this method then I would suggest a sheet of T-11 on the bottom 'cause it will keep any surrounding trees from raiding it... Believe me... This stuff is like gold and if start a compost operation in a bin of the ground every tree within a hundred feet will send a root over to steal yer stuff... Put the T-110 down... Okay, yeah, it will be yucky but the object is for you to have the compost for your chosen planrs and not some hoggy maple 70 feet away... Fun thread, SRE... Takes my mind off being cripped up... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:32 PM We use a tumbler composter that will make beautiful compost outta just about any organic matter... But if you don't have one you can just drive three t_stakes in the ground, put chicken wire round three sides leaving the front open and just put yer leave, grass clippings, kitchen scrapes (including shrimp shells) in therr and turn it twiwe a week with a pitch fork and you'll have great compost... I composted everything until I got dogs. And then the wire and the stakes and gates and anything you could thing of wasn't enough to keep those mutts (even if they are good breeds, they're mutts when it comes to free food) out of it. Now I compost everything except table scraps, but I've been thinking about a tumbler. What is the capacity on your tumbler, and how often are you able to empty it out? NOTE: If you use this method then I would suggest a sheet of T-11 on the bottom 'cause it will keep any surrounding trees from raiding it... Believe me... Like I said, the dogs are the most immediate problem. They get so stinky so fast when they do that belly crawl under the fence wire. I have a couple of stacks of finished compost to put out in beds this spring. And I was reading Martha Stewart Living this month and saw the same recommendation about the straw. I have been using that kind of sea hay in the stall in the garage where the dogs sleep. For now, my garden will be at the side of the house, out of their reach, because they're pretty hard on anything when they get racing around. But maybe I'll gradually be able to move part of it back into the back yard. Kat and I have been talking back channel about putting in new beds. If you don't want to dig up new areas one fast and dirty (so to speak) method is the "no-till" approach. Put down a several sheet thickness square of newspaper pages, overlap the edges as you layout the bed, and put several (at least 6) inches of mulch on top and water it all in. After a while it will be yellowed and squishy dead plants underneath. I would wait a week or two then carefully poke a spade through it all into the ground and plant my bedding plants. Since you're not doing any other bed prep, you want to pay attention to your fertilizer and amendments (sprinkle them on top, they'll work their way through during the course of the year). Compost tea is good to give them a boost if they need it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:38 PM Yeah, I use newspaper *and* landscape cloth, SRS... Works for years... No weeding!!! Very little watering, if any!!! And topped with pine needle mulch!!! Yes sir/mam, looks great... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM You put down that plastic stuff? Under or over the newspaper? I have gotten away from landscape cloth--I'd use a much thicker layer of newspaper before I put that stuff down. You could go whole hog and put down corrugated cardboard instead of that black plastic stuff. I reserve landscape cloth for places like around the heat pumps, where I don't want weeds growing up and interfering with the venting or machinery. How big is your compost tumbler, Bobert? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:38 PM In theory I can dig out the Bermuda and after a mighty struggle, keep it out. Theory in my area is that your theory is well past urban legend category, and somewhere even south of major psychotic behaviour. At least here, and probably there, bermuda roots extend to below the frost line (about 3 feet deep) and can go to similar depths to come under minor barriers like concrete foundations. Roots not killed can reach the surface a couple of seasons after the original "digging out" - and perhaps even longer. The Ag station here, where they maintain a number of test plots with pure single plant species for turf testing purposes, recommends Round Up as the only practical method of getting rid of bermuda, with periodic applications on a "barrier strip" of bare soil to keep it from growing back in. For removal before planting anything new (like a new lawn), an application should be made after the soil is warm enough for "green grass" to show growth. After a sufficient pause to see what comes back - usually about 3 weeks, a second application should achieve nearly complete removal of the existing bermuda. Although the package instructions say to wait a couple of weeks before planting, my Ag Dept expert says it's safe to plant "most things" a week after the last application. (With bermuda, better eradication often is achieved in the fall, since it grows more actively after the hot season as the weather starts to cool.) Once a "bermuda free" area is achieved, about the only thing one can say about re-invasion of the stuff is "Good Luck." But then I've always been an optimist about planting things. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM I did acknowledge that there will be a mighty struggle. But there are a few areas in the neighborhood that have achieved this Bermuda-free zone. An the only way they can do it is with sizable concrete perimeters. I need to lose weight again. I might as well burn the calories digging out Bermuda grass. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:58 PM Stilly - Killing the bermuda before you dig it out just helps to keep it from sprouting back from the bits of root that get left behind if you try to dig it out. You'll still need to dig it out to get rid of the dead roots, if you want to be able to cultivate as usual once your intended plants are ready to go in - or when the bermuda starts coming back. (A cement mixer with a generous amount of water is a good way to separate the roots from the soil, once the roots are dead, according to a neighbor who used the method?) The exercise potential is still there - but it's more productive exercise without live bermuda roots in it. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:49 PM Yes, Bermuda grass is a nightmare... "Round Up" works on it but as John has observed it takes several applications... Sometimes as much as four with three week intervals... The main problem with the stuff is that it has a very extensive root system so killing it in a bed probably isn't actuall killing the sumabich but just keepin' it outta the bed... Okay, SRS, yeah.... I put down 3 or 4 individual sheets of neespaper first... Then the landscape cloth... It's okay to use 16 penny nails to hold everything down... If your bed is prepared (tilled) then you can push them down with your hand... This really makes the rest of the job easier because you don't have wind messing with your landscape cloth... Then what we do is put down about 3 to 4 inches of double shredded mulch ann 3-4 inches of the pine needles... Tell you what... You do that an yer bed will stay weed free and yer plants will thrive like nuthin' you ever seen... All we do is put an couple inches of the pine needles on each bed each year and all is well... We even leave the leaves that find their way into the bed each winter... More organic material... Speakin' of organic... We don't have major problems with bugs in our gardens because the ecology is in balance... Even in our veggie garden... That is important... Ecomlogical balence is the best way to grow anything... Yes, it does start at the bottom of the food chain which means creating environment for bugs and worms... Then an environment for birds, frogs and toads... If you can do this then you are better than half way toward never having to resort to anything else to control damage... We are lucky enough to have a pond and frogs... The litttle tree frogs camp out in the veggie garden... With the straw mulch it satys moisty so they just move in and stay there all summer... They are such fun... I mean, I'm picking beans doan a long row and it seems that evry minute or so I see one of those little guys sitting on a leaf... Don't get any better than that... Okay, maybe sex, but those little frogs takes care of the garden and eat just about anything that can grow up and become a pest, like potato bugs and horn worms and all them critters... So, my advice is if you have a veggie garden make it bird and frog/toad friendly and you won't ven have to worry about bugs... Well, okay, Japanse Beetels are pesky and we just carry a jar with a lid filled half way with water and just pick them off stuff and drop them in the jar... But no chemicals... Well, that's about all I can do for now... These is some powerful drugs they have me on... I can talk gardening but prolly stay away from the political threads fir a while..,. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM BTW, soft bodied larve bugs can be eliminated with dustings of self rising flour... The eat it and wahmooo... They are in that big bean row in the sky... Bye, bye.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM Self-rising flour? Sounds like a great trick! I try not to use Roundup. Here we are talking about Roundup and organics in the same post. Ugg! I need to find a way to spray vinegar so that my sprayer doesn't freeze up after a while. Vinegar (10%) is a good way to kill it if you do multiple sprayings. And get the roots out. I have a lot of wildlife here--this yard has been subject to benign neglect for many many years, and it is a large lot on a creek with a large adjacent woods. Hawks, owls, herons, vultures, egrets, the big charismatic birds along with the usual small ones. Had some beautiful cedar wax wings out back last week. And we have wild turkeys--what a treasure! Don't see them often, but they're out there. In the yard there are native lizards and lots of big green toads and Mediterranean house geckos and various earth snakes and other types if snakes. And my beloved tarantulas. Those can take out quite a few things like bugs and small mice. Lots of birds also. When Junebug season rolls around it is interesting just how many critters feast on them. Including my dogs. I find bug wings in the dog poop. The pitbull loves katydids, and I think she's the Junebug eater also. Being stray for a few weeks (at least) taught her some survival skills she hasn't forgotten. Anyway, come Junebug season I catch them and throw them in some of the big spider webs (non-tarantula types, that come out at night to weave their big webs, then dismantle all but a strong high line by morning). They build above where people walk, above where the dogs run. We throw Junebugs to toads on the porch (they sit under the light waiting for a meal to bounce past). And the geckos stuck to the window glass. Little dramas unfold as they compete for moths when you're in the bathroom at night, attracting bugs by the light. This is a great yard if you like the wildlife. My neighbor across the street is terrified of most of it. Her husband has to chase off geckos before she'll go outside. Other neighbors know to call me to rescue tarantulas that get in the house. I haven't even touched on the fish and turtles and crawdads and fresh water clams. Big clams, like razor clams from out on the ocean. A real surprise. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:04 AM Wow, not nearly as much abundance here in the high desert. We're lucky to see a woodpecker once in awhile, starlings are prevalent as are sparrows, and, sometimes chickadees, as well as robins. I love them all, but would love to attract more. We put out feeders and have a bath for them, too. I really want to get a bat house put up this year to help with mosquitoes. The big thing with our yard is it's big and full of weeds. Under a lot of it is some decent grass. My brother says if we keep it watered, the grass would take over and the weeds would die because they don't like the wet, BUT, this is desert. I cannot bring myself to use that much water AND, since we don't have a sprinkler system, it gets to be quite a chore to drag hoses all over the place. I think I am going to call a service to see what it would take for them to spray the weeds, esp. the foxtails as they are such a menace to pets and we had tons of them last year. Then maybe we can decide what else to do. The weeds grew to over 6 feet because they got away from us when Rog was unable to mow. Their skeletons are still standing in the backyard. With just the two of us, it is an overwhelming thought to get rid of all of them and I know of a service here which advertises organic removal. (We'll see.) I have a very brave and hardy Russian sage near the back door. (That's not mine. Wish it was!) It has a wonderful minty smell to it. In front my iris need to be moved, but are bravely coming up, as are my tansy (everyone has them and the R. sage as they grow without any maintenance to speak of out here. The tansy also has a tangy, lemony-verbena type scent. My catnip is coming up and I think my clematis is, too. It will be the third year for it, if it does. Oh, and my flax is also sending up frothy fronds amidst the blankety-blank perennial weeds in my flower bed. Maggie, I will see about that vinegar thing for the weeds in the flower bed. I think the vinegar would be good out here anyway because our soil is heavily alkaline, so the acid might balance it out nicely. I have a few perennials which may come back up IF I didn't bury them too much when I dumped all of my potted annual pots out in the flower bed last fall. I've raked it a little bit, but I haven't seen them coming up, yet. I figured it would be a good way to fill in one end which was sloped...it is now almost level AND would also add nutrients to the old soil, etc. We don't rake up our leaves and we use a mulching mower, so everything gets put right back on the grass, but I think we still need to do some feeding, etc. this year. We did spend a fair amt. getting our trees trimmed, even had a huge one taken down, so our gardening budget is kind of shot. I might be lucky just to have a couple of hanging pots this year. One thing I am determined to have though is a potted veggie garden on tables which are the right height for me to reach easily. I met an old man, once, who had a wonderful garden that way. It was so easy to take care of and yielded an amazing array of good veggies. He had most of his stuff planted in old coffee cans! Another old man had a veggie garden planted completely in sand. Nary a weed, beautiful hillocks of potatoes, etc. and so clean and crisp looking. It was a wonder. Great thread, thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Sorcha Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:33 AM kat, watch out for that tansy....it will try to completely take over. Did you know that it is an abortifacent, and ant repellant? Mine smells more like eucalyptus than lemon vebena. And I have to dig some of it out IF the weather will ever warm up ans stop snowing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:26 AM Look at different grasses, Kat. The one that is popular down here if people take the time to make the switch over is Buffalo grass. I don't know if it would do well in your area but for North Texas it is heat tolerant, drought tolerant, and looks kind of like a thinnish Bermuda. Gotta run today--later I'll look at the rest of your pics and see if I can find anything over at the subscription side of the Dirt Doctor site that might help. Meanwhile, have you checked online at your state ag university? They usually have tons of local research and information. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM I did know that, Sorcha, in fact I don't know if this is still true, but it was illegal in some places to grow tansy because of its use as an abortifacent. It doesn't seem to work with the ants down here, but baby powder does!:-) Also, I have kept it isolated from any other beds, but would be just as happy if it did try to take over, it's so easy to care for. Oh, wait, I have a small batch at the end of my flower bed, but it has not thrived as well; it's a red flower variety and just doesn't seem happy. I'm thinking I may just get a ton more flax plants and just fill the flowerbed with them! Thanks, Maggie. I'll take a look at that site, too. While new grass would be helpful, I don't see it happening this year. I'll be happy if we can get the weeds under control and go from there. We do have three grapevines now and the oldest, which I bought for Rog, three years ago, gave out tons of really sweet small grapes last year. We couldn't eat them all and had to give some to the neighbours and birds. I expect the other two to flourish and give forth this year, too. This is great vineyard country. I just can't seem to get things to grow down here like I did in WY. My brother had fantastic gardens here when we were growing up, so I suspect I need to treat my soil with some more nutrients, etc. I'll ask him about it. Then, too, he used tons of irrigation water back then. We have water rights, but no pump. May get one this year. Rog does have some pvc pipe attached to the irrigation pipe and uses it as a slow flood on the front yard some times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM Thanks to you lot, for the motivation, I have called Biogreen Organics and left a message for them about needing weed control. We'll see if I can budget for them and what they say.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:47 PM OK gardeners, here is a question for you about potting up. I know that I will be moving from here when hubby finally agrees to some sort of property settlement. (I thought I would be gone already - silly me.) I could be out of here as early as May. He could possibly drag this out for another year, but I don't think that will happen. If you were me, would you go ahead and dig and pot up divisions of stuff now, as the plants are starting to grow, and hold them in pots, maybe for months or another year, or wait until I get my marching papers, letting them grow on in the ground with plenty of room, but which might mean digging and potting plants up in the high heat of summer? Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:35 PM Well, first of all, you know anyone who would go by and have a little talk with "hubby"... Know what I mean here... You should have some level of understanding of how long you have before you have to move... I got connections in Carolina...My son-in-law is 'bout 6'4" an about 220 pounds... But forget hubby fir now... We went thru this very scenerio 3 years ago and moved 550 plants some 70 miles south and we just started potting them up right around this time of year and leavin' them potted up right where thet were livin'... That way they were with their buddies... Then when we closed on our farm we moved them in a 10 foot cover trailer... Took about 30 some trips but we got 'um all... Okay, not exactly... We left enough fir a gardener to have a a fine garden if they wanted to work what we left.... Unfortunately, the guy who bought out old house has let everything just just be overgrown... Too bad... We left alot... But, No, Janie... Find a nursery that also does landscaping... They will have pots that they will give you for free... Then get everything potted up... Be sure to get enough of what they are living in in the pot... That way they won't know they have been dug up... But dig 'um now and [put the piots back in the holes... No one 'cept us will know that yer gettin' ready to move and plus, if you have moles they will be safer in the pots... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:39 PM I'd start potting them now. And dig some more before you go as well. Don't put too much in the pots--give whatever you're transplanting room to grow, so it doesn't suffer in the pot. And are there containers other than pots that will work as well? Cut the top off of milk and juice jugs, plastic bags that you can fill with dirt, etc. Don't limit yourself by the number of pots you can afford. But start by filling pots first. I couldn't take my favorite plants with me. My ex is still in the house we moved to when we first got here. He has fabulous trees now--a sweet gum, baldcyprus, and Afghan pine in the back and an Afghan pine and my mothers-day yaupon holly out front. They're huge now, and I'm starting over from scratch with new trees I've planted. But the pine is getting up there after six years, and the vitex is a stunner. I have quite a bit more space here so I've put in a lot of trees. 18 months ago I put in several Italian stone pines--rated better now that Afghan pines (if they get too much water they have trouble, not so fir the stone pines, though both are great xeriscape plants). But I digress. Save some seeds also. Good luck! Maggie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:54 PM Good idea about the black pots. I took mine over to the local nursery to recycle then I've needed some since. I should go ask for them back. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:12 PM Thanks folks. I was thinking that is what I should do, but was needing some confirmation. I've got scads of nursery pots and the local transfer station also has a recycle shed just for nursery pots that the folks who grow for market cycle through, so hopefully I won't have to buy much other than some big pots for the peonies. I've already put pots under the roses and hydrangeas and pegged branches to start rooting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM I agree with the others, Janie. I would dig them up now and acclimate them to the *idea* of being in a pot, etc. Have any of you ever grown tomatoes THIS WAY?. They advertise the brand name Topsy Turvy ones on tv and they have a website, but I don't see why a person couldn't do like the guy in the article and just do your own in buckets. I like the idea of that...easy to reach and no weeding! The weed people haven't called back yet.:-< |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM All right, the organic gardeners/weed eradicator guy called! He can't get enough good helpers, the money is better in the oil fields, so they can't do much for another three weeks, BUT he IS coming over next Thursday to take a look and give me a quote. He said if I'd had them here three weeks ago, they could have used a corn gluten application thing that would have killed all of the seeds, etc. of weeds. Now, we will have to burn the tops of them all and/or spray them with vinegar. The other thing which would work is to use a "hotsy" a spray washer which heats the water. He said if we sprayed them with one of those, it would kill them. We could do any of those, but he's got three guys at $40-45 per hour and I'm thinking they could probably knock out our backyard in an hour, maybe two, for which I think it would be worth paying them. We burned weeds when I was a kid, but never this close to our house or any neighbours, plus nowadays you have to get a permit, etc. Then ya never know if a gust of wind is going to come up. Some fellow just lost his house that way. The garden guys do a very controlled version. Also, he said it's hard to find the vinegar at 30%, but he's starting to sell it. He also recommends cutting in half with water. He said the government will not list it as an herbicide even though it works really well. Wonder how much the chemical companies pay to keep it off the lists. Anyway, I am excited. The weeds have really been bothering me, esp. when they got to over six feet tall and we had to mount an expedition to find the dog!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Apr 08 - 08:54 PM You can get corn gluten meal at the local feed store, most likely. Even if you did it three weeks ago I think it would have acted like a fertilizer, not a weed killer, but done at the proper time, it is a good weed killer. Down here (North Texas) The Dirt Doctor reminds people that the week between Christmas and New Years is the best time to spread the corn gluten meal as a pre-emergent weed killer. I've been digging out more grass around the basketball post today, though I haven't gone down around the concrete holding it in yet. But that sucker is coming out this weekend. Looks like it will be tomorrow because I have things to finish before dark and it's getting close to that now. My next door neighbor brought over a few extra plants she has from a friend giving them to her. I've been rescuing day lillies from under some salvia and the ones she brought will be a nice addition to my sparse collection. And a couple of women who walk past the house regularly walked up the drive today and in broken English asked if they could have some iris roots, pointing at my plants that started to bloom this week. She indicated by wrapping her hand around the plant as if to pull, but only to show me what she wanted, not to ransack my plantings. I told her I had some extras I hadn't planted last fall so we went back to the odds and ends corner by the garage and dug through the milk crate they stayed in all winter. Quite a few were sprouting again--iris are so hearty! I pulled a box out of the recycle bin and dropped in a couple of dozen in for her. I'll know which is her house next year by the color of the iris patch! ;) SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Apr 08 - 11:34 PM If any of you are interested you can listen to Howard Garrett, the "Dirt Doctor" on Sunday mornings on a few radio stations around the country, or you can listen to it stream on the Internet. KSKY-AM has a lot of the usual conservative talking-heads (though I see they have Dennis Miller on for three hours every weeknight), but every Sunday morning from 8am to 11am Central Time they play Howard Garrett's talk show. He is the "Dirt Doctor." I think the radio stations out of the area only carry it from 8 - 10. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:17 PM Mister Bo-Bear, I ran your tip past Howard Garrett this morning. He has heard it, and said another thing that has the same effect is a dusting of diatomaceous earth. I asked about the range of bugs it would kill, and he seems to think it will work as well on katydids and grasshoppers as it will on caterpillars. My on-air quip was that I'd like to see it paste the rest of them (like aphids) in place and prevent their sucking. Howard speculated that maybe a mix of the two might indeed have the beneficial effect of not only blowing up the bugs with chewing mouth parts, but pasting (or at least gumming up) the others (like aphids) to the plant in the event of moisture. Garden science in action! Let the tests begin! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM If I am not sidtaken the diatomaceous eath is ground up sea ahells that when consumed mess with buf tummies... There used to be another organic product which we can not longer find call "sabadilla dust" which worked very well with most critters with 6 legs... We use horticultural oil or insecticidal soap with water for the aphids... Also, if I haven't netioned it, birds are our friends... Make yer garden bird friendly... Even a bird bath helps... Song birds will eat lots of bugs... A bat house is a good idea if you have a pole or garden house to hang it on... Crows are the enemy and a scare crow will ward them off... Dangle a couple of aluminum pie pans from Mr. Scarercrows arms and this will also scare off the deer... Somewhat... We are lucky to have hundreds of frogs that inhabit our veggie garden and not only aare they cute as a button but they eat lots of bugs... Other pests: Voles: They hate castor bean plants... These plant are quite decorative... You can cruash the caster bean and put the crushed beans in the vole holes... That really bugs them... Voles can also be caught in mice traps... Put eh trap with some peanut butter on it and then cover with a pot and rock on top and ....bango!!! Deer: We swear by "Liquid Fence"... Okay, the smell takes a little gettin' used to but it will keep the deer away from your ornimentals... You can also use it one veggie plants but wouldn't advise hitting anything you might want to, ahhhhh, eat... We also have deer fence around our veggie garden with colored surveyors tape tied in little bows all around the garden... It isn't 100% becuase once or twice a season a knothead will try to jump the fence anyway and occasionally get over just enough of it to kinda get tangled in it and panic and make a mess of the fence which then needs to be repaired... Groundhogs: Grrrrrrrrrrr!!! .410 shotgun!!! Oh, BTW, I think someone asked about our composter... It is a Mantis (yeah, same company as the tillers) and is about 100 gallons, 2 chanbers with big ring gears on both ends of the cylindar and a crank handle that turns an axle that runs under the tumbler... On the exle are two smaller drive gears that are situated under the ring gears and so when you turn the handle the drum goes round and round... it has two chambers whcih is nice because you can use some of the good compost with new stuff to get the bacteria that is needed to get the process in motion... So the smart thing to do is have one chanber which is about ready to use and the other new stuff... that way you aleternate chambers and you always have some compost just about or ready to use... That's it for now... B-Bear |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Janie Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:59 PM We have a an overabanudance of deer here also, in town, where I live. For veggie gardens, the market gardeners around here put up electric fence. They don't keep it hot all the time, but bait it with peanut butter when it is hot, and always at the beginning of the growing season. The deer lick the peanut butter, get shocked, and tend to avoid the area after that. The same thing can work somewhat with groundhogs - one strand really low, baited with peanut butter. But keep the .22 or the shotgun handy season long. I find that a strong stream of water alone works just fine with the aphids. It helps to stay right on top of it when the aphids first appear. A couple of weeks of blasting them off of the plants when they first appear every two to three days seems to take care of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Rowan Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:30 AM the diatomaceous eath is ground up sea ahells Diatomaceous earth (also known as Kieselguhr) is the 'fossilised' skeletons of diatoms. The skellies are extremely fine silica, whereas the shells of molluscs (the usual form of seashell) are mostly calcium carbonate so the diatomaceus earth is siliceous rather than carbonaceous. The carbonate would rarely be ground as finely as the diatoms and would affect the pH of the soil whereas the silica won't. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM I have some rock samples of layered chert, opal, and diatomaceous earth my brother brought back from a geology field trip to Eastern Washington. Really interesting stuff. I thought that sounded like a great field trip. It always seemed to happen that I was picking up rocks on biology field trips and finding plants on geology trips, but whatever. Those field trip rocks are some of my favorite bookshelf trinkets. Three hours in the yard finished the back, all pretty straight forward mowing. The front is trickier with all of the beds for iris and such. I have a rule for myself--I can't go to the garden store to buy the bedding plants or whatever until I FINISH DIGGING THE BED. Otherwise I have to keep these things alive until I get around to planting them and sometimes there can be a considerable delay. I've saved myself a lot of money by following that rule. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:01 AM My dogs are keeping the katydids down. They both like them (as snacks!), but the pit bull keeps an eye on the catahoula and chases her away from her bug if she doesn't eat it fast enough. (This is so weird. I'm in charge of the dog food, but the pit bull is in charge of the bugs.) I took Poppy and a katydid I caught into the kennel and gave it to her. She was shy at first, looking over her shoulder at Cinnamon outside, then hunkered down and ate it. Their behavior is reminiscent of the grackles who often follow me when I mow the lawn. The birds will be a couple of rows behind, looking for injured bugs. The dogs were a little ahead of me watching for fleeing green katydids. It was funny to watch. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:38 AM Maggie, i know you posted pix of your place before and after, but I can't find them. Just wanted to say, wow! Well-done. You can tell you've really done a lot. You've inspired me to get a couple of new trees planted this year. The Bio-Green guy comes tomorrow. I am looking forward to meeting him and hearing what he recommends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM Just remembered another trick when it comes to voles... Plant the entire plastic container with steel hardware cloth (screen) in around the holes in the bottom so the citters can't get into the pot... This is especially good for hostas ow the roots are the voles favorite food... Another product that while not 100% vole proof but vole resistent is Permitil, which is like a gravely stuff... It is also very good if you have a lot of clay in your area... BTW, clay has alot of nutrients in it so if when you're planting a new shrub be sure to put at least a 1/3 of the clay you dug out into your planting mix... We use 1/3 clay, 1/3 top soil and the rest equal amounts of "pine fines" and Permitil... Very nice mix and plants thrive in it... At least where we are and the types of ornimentals we grow... Hey, ya' all... Maybe we need an ornimentals thread??? Maybe not??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:23 AM I noticed at Big Lots the last time I was in that they had that landscaping cloth at a pretty reasonable price. Once I get a little cash I may go pick up a roll and give it a try around a couple of things I'd like to keep grass away from. Heavy rains the last couple of nights. Means I can't mow for a while and the grass is getting tall. Another heavy weekend workout ahead. Bobert, how are you feeling these days? Is the pinched nerve still restricting your gardening movements? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Donuel Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM Most Iris can take the heat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:09 PM Ahhhhhm I'm still messed up, SRS, but the neurosergeon said that if I can tolerate the pain that I'm not damaging anything so... ... I'm doing what I can but between the P=-Vine and me we're gettin' the gardens in shape... There are ceratin things I can do that I didbn't use to do simply because either I didn't like doing them or the P-Vine did them... Now we are communication better so that we still get evrything done... So far... One thing that wears he out is spraying so I 've got a 10 gallon with a 12 volt electric pump and I've got an old dump cart that pulls behind a tractot mower and I'm gonna rig it all up so that I can get on the garden tractor with the sprayer mounted on the dump cart and a seat mounted on the dump cart and pull the P-Vine around the gardens and she can do most of her spraying without having to walk back to the house to mix more of whatever she is sparying and won't be worn out from lugging sprayers 'round the farms... One advantage of being stoved up is that you get real creative... BTW, the gardens look better than ever... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM Gorgeous weekend coming up. Gardeners, keep your cameras handy! I'd like to see some of the work people are talking about here! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM We're still a couple/three weeks behind ya, SES... But I got the canera laoded up with film... Yeah, sorry, but I use a 40 year old, at least, single reflex, 35 mm & a couple lenses... Love old time phopgraphy... Plus, its what I know... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:47 PM I have a couple of those. But I love my digital cameras now that I'm using them. My Louisiana iris are open full bloom now. It smells wonderful out there today. They look almost like orchids. I started with a handful of these on one side of the house six years ago. Now I have several nice patches. And the regular "garden variety" iris, various shades of yellow, they're all around the yard. Only a few blue ones, in the same spot, but I put twist ties on them so I can find them later and I'll divide them out later. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: katlaughing Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:48 PM Well, the BioGreen guy had to take his daughter to the doctor, unexpectedly. He was supposed to call me today to reschedule, but I didn't hear from him. I will call him back on MOnday. I hope his kid is okay. I guess Rog, my brother and I could spray with vinegar, but I'd rather have them do a controlled burn. Ah, well, it's cold and drizzly with wind, anyway, so we're doing inside work this weekend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Janie Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:48 AM Gonna rain here again this weekend. Lord knows we need plenty more rain, but it would be nice if it would fall during the work week. Even so, I think I'm going ahead and start potting stuff up, unless we get a deluge that absolutely saturates the ground. Advice and opinions, please. 1. Although it is absolutely the wrong time of year, I am going to be digging up peonies, of which I have several varieties. A few of them have been in place for 8 or 9 years, but most of them I divided, transplanted, or was gifted with divisions within the last 1 to four years. Think they will withstand being dug up in spring without being set back from bloom for more than a year? And should I go ahead and divide any with significant root mass (it doesn't take long to get root mass with peonies, you know,)as it will be much easier to pot them up and move them, or should I try to dig out the whole plant? Even the late peonies are up to about a foot, and it is going to be hard to dig them without breaking a lot of the stems. I'm concerned about preserving enough of the stems to sustain the plants through the summer. I don't think dormant eyes will sprout to compensate, but don't know that for sure. 2. Bulbs. a. I'm not going to fool with digging the common hybrid tulips. But I have a number of species tulips and heirloom daffs that are expensive to replace, and some sort of heirloom hyacinth or scillia that was here when I moved, I haven't been able to conclusively identify, and that I have not found in any catalogs. I'm thinking I will go ahead and dig them now, while I know where and what they are, and pot them up. If I wait until they are dormant, I'll lose track of what is what. Think that will work? I also have a number of lilies that are very well established. None of them are rare, but lily bulbs are expensive. However, I have read that large lily bulbs do not do well if dug up and transplanted - that there is an optimum size for transplanting (what you get when you order #1 size bulbs) and that larger bulbs don't do so well. Any of you have experience with this? Unrelated to the above, but more related to this thread, I have had problems with earwigs that I think were a present included with a dump trunk load of otherwise beautiful compost I got a few years ago. (They even chew on daffodils - it took looking at the blooms by flashlight to figure that one out.) My heavy use of leafmold for mulch also promotes earwigs. In one garden bed I have problems with a fungus that I suspect was brought in with a load of horse manure. Although there are some favorite plants in that bed that were gifts and/or pass-alongs from dear gardener friends, I am not going to bring any of those plants with me. In addition, I have bunches of maximillan sunflowers that have been hit with something that may be disease or may be fungus (whatever it is, it has slammed these sunflowers all over town in the last few years.) I won't be potting up any of these, or passing them along. Have any of you had experience with insect infestations or pathogensbrought in by organic soil amendments? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Janie Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:50 AM Kat, Maggie's pictures are over on the condo thread. I missed them at first and just found them a day or two ago. Wow! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM If you get enough root ball with the peonie and don't change it's light it should bloom fine... Just be sure to trick it into thinking it hasn't been moved... What ever moinsture it is used to you'll have to maintain, though... Don't divide until after it finsihes blooming and then do so carefully... No shovel doen the nmiddle trick like day lillies... As for your bulbs, you know to enjoy them and then pot them... If thay are late bloomer you might get away with potting them if you get enough dirt around them... The problems with that is if they have clustered you are apt to damage the bulb for this year, however, it will be fine for next year... Can't help ya' with earwigs... Read the label on your horticultural oil and see if it works on them critters... Seems to work on most pests... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM On another thread where we are recycling and decluttering someone took a bunch of miniblinds, cut them up, and used the shorter lengths to use to label plants. Can you put lots of markers around these things and find them later? I have iris and daffodils to move, but it's the wrong time of year. The trick is finding them later when it is the right time of year. With some I may move them anyway because otherwise I'll forget and mow the area flat and lose them again till next spring. I'm not expert in all of this transplanting, but I don't have a lot of high-dollar things, except for the trees, and I try not to move those if I can avoid it. I went over to that other thread and picked up the source code for those links:
Before and After and different "After" angle. I need to mow the grass. My retired next door neighbor is always a couple of days ahead of me. And I need to get more Bermuda out of some of the beds. You know how it is when you have your own patch of dirt to work on. I think the house could be a shack if I could putter in the garden. I know we share the same disease. I'm aiming at turning one of those segments of the front into the kind of planting you have in your current front yard. The difference with my garden and what the rest of you are talking about is that I'm simply taking advantage of nature's springtime surge with common and easy to move plants. I haven't had the time, money, or at times, discipline (you have to get up really early here to garden in the high summer if you can't stand the heat) to do anything fancy, and I can't even keep up with the beds I plant. But a couple of times a year my laisee faire approach and Mother Nature's exuberance are in perfect alignment and the iris are taller than the weeds. That's my trick. Take photos when the yard looks good and use those shots all year round. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM Here is a question for all my gardening buds here... I have a relatively steep berm that in essence is a dam as my pond is on one side and the driveway the other... On the driveway side weeds have had their way and it takes about 3 hours to weed eat it so... I'd like to put something in in the way of a groundcover that will beaou out the weeds and be as maintainenece free as possible... I have given some thought to low juniper but it get some kinda bug??? Vetch is out... Kidzo is out...Vinca would bee to costly... Any other ideas??? BTW... Our woods are filled with nice red and white oak but not a single Pin oak, which I love so we ***had*** to go to WalMart this week for cat food ($16 a bag v $20 at Food Lion) and they had 5 ft. Pin Oaks for $11.... So we now have one... Hooray... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:47 PM Evergreen low-growing Asian jasmine seems to out-compete weeds around here. But in reading about historic lawns and how mono-cultures of grass didn't come around until weed-killers were invented and they needed some way to market them, I would put some clover out and let it compete with the weeds, and maybe take over. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM Bobert, I dug out the basketball pole (the hoop came off easily first). It was the kind of adventure that you usually talk about, and is a story that should be told with a West Virginie twang. Because I had to figure out how BIG to dig the open pit to remove that ingot of concrete, but then I had to backfill under it and move it around to tamp it down so I could get the darned thing level with the driveway and out of the hole and rolled down to the street. I'll be real curious to see if this thing disappears overnight. Now I have a wonderfully well worked spot for planting. I have an agave to move over here, and I'm going to make this a fairly dry bed, except against the house where the soaker hose keeps the foundation moist. That's where the Texas Star hibiscus will remain (I took a lantana out, but I might put one in this new area again. They are as hearty as anything I could plant here. That or a Salvia greggi.) SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gardeners & Soil and Climate Science From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM Back when I was growin' up we mounted the basket ball board, hoop and net on a telephone pole which was right up against the street we lived on... Weren't nobody interested in doing no "dunkin" back then unless, of course, you were prepared for a few nights in the hosptal from runnin' smack into the pole... BTW, no, yer basket ball apparates prolly won't grow any legs tonight... Even a "FREE" sign won't gro it no legs... They make these hoops that you can rollinto yer danged garage... But nevermind B-ball... This is an official gardenin' thread... Ahhhhh, that Asian jasmine hardy to 0 degrees??? We have Carolina jasmine and it it.... I like the heck outta jasmine... "I been thinkin' of Jasmine Jasmine thinkin' about me... Nevermind, little trip thru the past... I don't know this plant, SRS... Does it have yellow flowers??? Is it invasive??? if so, how invasive... I can live with some invasive plants... Others??? Nope... B~ |
