BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?

Subject: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST,Colin Rand
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

I posted this, and im ready to argue that its not.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:18 PM

I think I've already come across a thread about Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Frankham
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:31 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

No. Take a look at THIS.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

Make that three no's on a row...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM

Yes at times and no others -

I'll say yes just to keep the urine flowing -

Piss

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

yes.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:06 PM

If it's a war which breaks the term of the United Nations Charter, which an attack on Iraq will do, unless the Security Council backs it (which seems highly unlkely at this stage), then it depends on what status that has in the legal system of the country involved.

I'd think that in the case of the UK it would be illegal. A court refused to rule on this when an action was brought by CND last year, largely I think because it was a hypothetical case.

I'd have thought the same would be true in the USA, since it involves a solemn treaty obligation.

But I'd imagine, whatever the actual theoretical legal situation, any court is going to roll over on an issue like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:21 PM

Most of the UN thinks so. Are they incorrect ?

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

I think Laura Bush is frigid and Dumbya only has a half inch prick, but he's goofed up on Viagra, creating a situation where the poor boy has to get his rocks off somewhere. He's already fucked over the American people and Afghanistan, so I figure Iraq should have their turn in the barrel. Ol' George is just itchin' to fire off some big ones at 'em ................

Spaw.......who just got home from Peace Vigil in Columbus....in 8 inches of snow....small crowd because of the Winter Storm Advis. still in effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Sam L
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:34 PM

I'm not the doveyest of liberals. I think if you believe in human rights they are sometimes worth fighting for, and it is the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. I don't think mixed motives necesarily turn the whole question around, or because you don't always do the right thing it means you never should.

I also think a much better case for war with Iraq could be made, than is being made. Bush is harming a reasonable cause with his ill-tempered and simple-minded approach to it. He is creating dissent by seeming utterly impatient with the concerns of many U.S. citizens. He is doing his job very very poorly, pro or con.

But short answer, no. I think aid to other interests who would like to topple Hussein would be much wiser. I'd love to be rid of all such brutes, but it doesn't hurt to be smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM

"Legit" or no, it's barbaric. Morally repugnant. And just plain stupid on humanistic and environmental grounds. IMO.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM

Many of the "liberals" have been just as bad on this issue as the right-wingers. Take Senators John Kerry and Joe Lieberman, for example. They both voted to give that little turd from Crawdad, Texas full authority to massacre the people of Iraq. Now Kerry is avoiding any mention of this vote, so he can position himself with the left-wing of his party come Iowa Caucus and New Hampshire Primary time next year. At least Boy George is consistent in his monomania to kill Arabs for Christ . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:45 AM

Ummmmmm....John Kerry and Joe Lieberman wanna be President. Would you not be surprised if they DIDN'T take this was out? I sure would.

I think if you're looking for actual integrity, you'll only find it wayyyyyy back down the power chain...like perhaps 'dog-catcher'

It's all cementing alliances now.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Declaring war on Iraq is totally abhorrent and certainly not justifiable by ANY of the so-called evidence which either Bush or Blair allege thay have found, but are totally unable to produce. All I have heard referred to consists of smear and heresay.
Saddam has NOT Threatened any neighbouring countries. He has NOT invaded anyone. He IS legally under Iraqui law their leader, however disgusting we might find his treatment of the Iraqui people, and minorities such as the Kurds in Northern Iraq.
The main outcome of these threats of war is to destabilise crude oil prices across the world. It has already also caused a major crash of the London Stock Market, with billions wiped off the nominal share value of many companies. My major suspicion is that the war is all about wrecking the world economy whilst the USA being self-sufficient in its own oil supplies can make a "Killing" financially.
Reading a rack of UK Newspaper front pages yesterday, the concensus was that NOBODY except Blair and Bush regard this war as acceptable.
Yesterday there was a protest rally in London against the proposed war. The organisers reckoned over 2 million attended, the police (government sponsored estimate) was one million. It wasn't the numbers which impressed, so much as the type of person protesting against the war. There were World War II veterans wearing their bravery medals, soldiers who fought in the last Gulf War, old-age pensioners who have lived through every conflict for the past 70 years. There were people who have NEVER felt strongly enough to feel the need to protest about ANY issue previously. Those attending cut across every barrier of race, political belief and social status.

My personal belief during the last gulf War, when Saddam invaded Kuwait was that once the war started, they should never have allowed Iraqi tanks or military vehicles to return to Baghdad. The troops should have been returned un-harmed but unarmed. The tanks should have been permanently disabled and the guns and explosives put in a big pile and blown up. After this Saddam should have been left, on his own, to argue with his countrymen about his right to govern (how long would he have lasted then?).
As it is. None of this was done. Saddam is still Iraq's legitimate ruler, and as far as I can see offers no real threat to ANY other country, and has not done so for the past 10 years. Bush says that there are terrorists in his country. So what! I'll bet there are a larger number resident in the USA than in Iraq! Perhaps Bush should be bombing Memphis or Disneyland?

I hope that the people of the USA see sense and prevent Bush from dragging us down this road of destruction.

Geoff!!

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:53 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:39 PM

Rick:
   No, I'm not looking for integrity. I gave up on that Arthurian quest 25 years ago. I'm simply flashing my own credentials, before anyone mistakenly believes me to be a liberal, as many do, when they see me unloading upon the neo-con white-wingers . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

I guess it's 'legit' or not according to whoever's making the rules. And we all know the Golden Rule - He who has the gold makes the rules.

Here's a little related humour about who's (unfortunately) making the rules today ...

"Texans are Tough

THREE MEN ARE SITTIN' ON A BENCH. ONE'S A TEXAN WEARING A STETSON, ONE'S A MUSLIM WEARING A TURBAN, AND THE LAST AN APACHE WITH AN EAGLE FEATHER WOVEN IN HIS HAIR.

THE INDIAN IS RATHER GLUM AND SAYS "ONCE MY PEOPLE WERE MANY, BUT NOW WE ARE FEW."

THE MUSLIM PUFFS UP AND SAYS "ONCE MY PEOPLE WERE FEW, BUT NOW WE ARE MANY MILLIONS."

THE TEXAN ADJUSTS HIS HAT, FINISHES ROLLING A SMOKE, LEANS BACK IN HIS CHAIR AND DRAWLS, "THAT'S CAUSE WE AIN'T PLAYED COWBOYS AND MUSLIMS YET."

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:37 PM

"Fighting Terrorists Since 1492"

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Deda
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM

No, no, no, no. I feel I haven't spoken clearly enough. No.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM

Deda: Come on, tell us what you really think . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 07:18 PM

Surely "legit" isn't a question of whether it's a good idea or not, but of whether it is legal. And for it to be legal certain conditions need to be met. In principle a war on any country would be legal if those conditions are met.

So the question is what condition need to be met, and have they yet been met in the case of Iraq. My understanding is that approval bythe Security Council - with nine votes, and no vetos by permanent members - would be needed. And tht hasn't happened so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:20 PM

There's also the requirement of a casus belli. While Bush is doing everything in his power to manufacture one, he hasn't done it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM

Geoff the Duck: I don't think it is truly a matter of declaring war on Iraq. I don't think that is even being contemplated. Iraq is not in compliance with seventeen UN Resolutions. Probably there will be a eighteenth within the next two weeks, and they won't be in compliance with the new one either. If there is to be a war with Iraq, it will be because Iraq has thumbed it's nose at the UN since 1991! After the UN ... or more likely the U.S., Great Britain and other willing allies use military force to force Iraq's compliance it will be all over! Saddam will be history, and the Iraqi people will live a better life.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:59 AM

There is only one hinge point on the legitimacy of this proposed military action, and that is whether or not Saddam's government is prosecuting a program of developing and retaining NBC weapons of the sort for which the only use is to slay populations wholesale.

IF he is, it is my opinion that he should be disarmed, as he agreed to do.   It is unsettling to recall that there are tens of thousands of gallons of toxic weapons-grade chemicals unaccounted for in the Iraqi armamentum.

That is the only question of fact. As far as Bush's practices he is, in my view, mishandling the matter tragically, and is power-mad and incompetent to preside. If he had the brains god gave a peacock, the facts on which his alarums are based would have been known and their rationale clear. As it is we are being handed skimpy glimmers of possibility on the side of the prosecution, with blood and mayhem in the offing as a certainty. Vonnegut really summed it up in his description of psychopathic personalities -- his sense of consequences is pathetic, and his indifference to the human side of things is comic folly at its worst.

The core of the problem is the man is not candid, is not capable of being truthful, and is in love with his own exercise of power for its own sake. He and his Iraqi counterpart are two of a kind. Would they could go duke it out on a deserted island somewhere. I believe the Iraqis proposed such a duel, but were nto taken seriously!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: chip a
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

I guess I'm with Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: outfidel
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM

Until definitive proof shows that Saddam 1) is harboring WMD for the purpose of terrorizing his neighbors, or 2) is linked to and supporting Al Qaeda, then my answer is "no".

BTW, I don't think Dubya is doing this for oil. If he were, he would be attacking Venezuela instead of Iraq. Instead, I think he's doing it partly because he thinks its necessary to protect the U.S., and partly for political gain -- he's got 2004 (and the memory of 1992) on his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:52 AM

As gnu up top there said yes and the UNSC thinks so too.

A couple of questions relating to the report delivered last Friday.

1.
The telexed announcement that the Iraqi Parliament had declared to rennounce WMD and abandon all programmes relating to them. As much as it was worth this was also backed up by a Presidential Decree from SH.

2.
SH also told the heads of the UNMOVIC and IAEA Inspection Teams that he was setting up two Revolutionary Command Council Commissions tasked with cleansing Iraq of WMD and associated bits and pieces.

WHY? Isn't all this stuff that he has repeatedly stated that he does not have - You know that full and accurate declaration that the UNSC asked him to hand in around the beginning of December.

Still been offered no reasonable explanation for their attempt to acquire one ampules of Atropine - We don't have CB weapons so it can only be to protect himself against the stuff he knows that he has got squirrelled away.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:54 AM

Sorry the last paragraph should have referred to one million ampules of Atropine.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: breezy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:04 PM

Ask the 'Free' people of Iraq what they want, listen to them crying for the ones who have dissappeared.
Its ok for us, to say no, but we must fight for liberty where-ever it is needed, that is what being free is about, so until the people are freed,whhatdo we do? do we turn away and pretend nothing is happening like we did with Hitler?
I dont agree with war but I accept it could be the only answer.
I hope there will not be war but that Saddam will 'give it up for humanity's sake.
Fat chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:10 PM

Geoff:

I think George Bush is pulling us up the road from destruction.

Yes I think the war is legitimate.


   Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Whether it is "legit" depends on who's making the laws - Dubya seems to think that's his perogative. The fact that he's in a global minority is probably not going to make much difference to him, unfortunately.

Perhaps we should be discussing what the outcome might be - who will replace him - how much support will a US controlled Iraqi government receive - and how long will it survive ?

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM

I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't see this thread when it first appeared. Let me say that Colin Rand, who started this thread, is a good friend of mine. We visit and play music whenever the opportunity presents itself. I've been telling him about Mudcat and I see he's found us. Welcome, Colin.

In answer to Colin's question, no I don't think a preemptive war on Iraq is legit. I agree with the philosophy in the article Don posted that a President has no Constitutionally mandated authority to declare war. I agree that Saddam Hussein is a bad guy but I don't think an all-out war is required to solve the problem.

For some reason the U.S. national phyche clings to this black-or-white, good-or-bad, no-shades-of-gray, with-us-or-against-us, love-it-or-leave-it, I'm-right-you-don't-matter mentality that oversimplifies everything and understands relatively little. We seem so often to be playing Alexander to the rest of the world's Gordian Knot. That solution is fine for meaningless puzzles but falls seriously short when it comes to human interaction.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM

How can any war be "legit"?

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:08 AM

Cluin:

Legitimacy derives from human agreement.

When a mass of humans comes to the consensus that they are under threrat of survival for their very lives, and that physical overwhelm is the only remedy that will cure thew condition, they will legitimize the use of physical violence.

I think your question is a fair one, because any such condition must be predicated on an earlier failure if dialoge and imagination and creative solution, unless one is dealing with a complete psychotic. On an individual level, of course you can sometimes still find yourself confronting a pure-dee psycho. But I feel among nations, it is a contrived condition built on the dissemination of lies and fear-mongering.

Despite that, it has happened several times just inthe last century that the U.S. and U.K. have gone through just such a cycle of legitimzing and deploying violence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:29 AM

So "legitimate" is based upon a subjective viewpoint? There's no higher court to appeal to after all. And it all comes down to lots of people just killing each other doesn't it?

One group of people decides to attack another group of people because they feel their fear or desire legitimizes it. The other group of people fights back, because they have now in fact been attacked. Whatever the reason in the first place, it doesn't matter. The shit has hit the fan and we all get a faceful.

We're fucked, aren't we, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:46 AM

To answer the original question,

No

this is not a legitimate war. But it is a war, because Georgie says it is so. And no one on his staff seems to be arguing against it.

This is a classic, obvious case of Wag the Dog. The rich live for today, the rich get richer, and even if Dubya is only in for one term, he's done the maximum amount of damage on behalf of himself and his rich friends as he can manage, and it will take years to untangle it. And the sleight of hand that is making this possible is his "WAR" with Iraq.

sRS

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: leprechaun
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM

Maybe if we wait another twelve years for Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions, then we could issue some stern warnings or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:14 AM

It's not legitimate unless Congress actually gives a declaration of war. They don't have the power to cede war declaration to the executive branch, because the Constitution explicity states that Congress alone can declare war. If Congress does declare war, though, then it's legitimate by the laws of the U.S. Doesn't make it a good idea, but it would be legit.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Beccy
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM

Saddam only kills his own people. It's none of our business.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

Beccy:

A lot of people felt that way about Adolf before the invasion of Austria. I am of mixed feelings about the advisability of leaving populations at the mercy of psychopaths no matter what nationality they have stamped on them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Beccy
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:47 PM

Amos- I was being sarcastic. I actually think that due to his barbarism, we are justified in going in and removing him.

I renew my request for someone to invent a "sarcastic font" to make up for my lacking communication skills. :-)

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:52 PM

Just a suggestion, Beccy, but were you to follow the remarks you intend as sarcasm with a :>) or other such symbol we probably would "catch" your meaning. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:56 PM

Amos:

Beccy was being sarcastic, my friend.

Now, lots of folks kill their own countrymen and lots of folks other country's countrymen. And it's a pretty screwed up thing to do. Sure, we can hold the magnifying glass over Iraq and dwell on whats going on there. Or we could hold the magnifying glass over many places on the planet and find the same crap going on. Texas included where folks have been put to death for not having enough money to hire a competant lawyer.

Problem I have is that the current administration shoots first and asks question, if they feel like it, later. Where's Jimmy Carter when we need him?

And I also ask the question, "Will the world be safer after the US attacks Iraq, killing thousands and thousands of civilians? I don't think so. But Osoma should have a field day with his recruitment campaign.

And just where has been the diplomacy? And why don't we hear the current administartion using the term "human rights" except in trying to sell a war that will bring about such a high number of civilian deaths? And why isn't this adminstartion *doing* anything about the Isreali/Palestianian war when it most certainly... *can*?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Beccy
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

Thanks, DougR. I think "Evil Beccy" was trying to start a little something there.
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 04:39 PM

Naw... I think most war is an imbicile's round trip ticket to 'greatness'... implying the 'and back again'... This war is a distracting cog in the corporate economic circus...

Has anyone else noticed that the tax-rebate we 'common' folks were dished out on a silver platter will just about cover the increased cost of gas due to the war? I sure don't like it when the people of this country are used as middle-men between 'corporate' and 'greed'... How'd we get here anyway? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 07:19 PM

You must have goten a much bigger rebate than I did, TTR. Besides, the slowdown in the economy from Bush's ham-handed handling of the post-9/11 decline has already cost us all more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:03 PM

Can I predict what will happen or how many people will die if we do vs. not do? No. Do I think we have not just the right but the obligation to rid the world of monsters who would enslave and torture their own people, to say nothing of outsiders...yes. My own life is on the line on behalf of that belief.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
From: GUEST, herc
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:08 PM

So is mine, Mary. But we go to trial in Family Court next month and I think things will mellow out after that. . . .