the english and irish traditions

Subject: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:47 AM

"The big difference between English and Irish music is that the English tradition is a broken one. It was lost and then made up. It's sad. It's quite possible that English music could well have been as good as Irish music, and I'm certain that English music heavily influenced Irish music in a positive way. But it was lost and that's that. And I'd rather you cried about it than tried to revive it with hopelessly shallow middle class earnestness"
I cant find any sense in this statement can anyone else?, it makes an assumption that everyone who is interested in the English tradition is middle class, it assumes that English folk song and music cant be made up, it assumes or kind of implies that irish songs and tunes are not made up, or havent been in the past., ALL OF WHICH IS NOT CORRECT.      Paddy Fahey and JuniorCrehan, are examples of irish instrumentalists who have successfully added to the tradition with their own compositions.
On the English side there are also plenty of examples of recent songs that have been mistaken by Irish singers as Traditional Irish songs, there are also examples of composers who are English who have added to the English Tradition.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM

Whose is the quote, Dick?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:12 AM

Why do you ask?
wait and see, I will be criticised if I name him and criticised if I do not.
I am more interested in what peoples opinions on the statement than saying who made the statement, in other words if i name the originator of the statement, it could prejudice peoples views on the comment , for example if I said it was Martin Carthy[which it is not] you might view it differently than if I said it was Noel Hill or Vic Smith[which it is neither]
Can we please judge the comment without knowing the authors background.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:21 AM

Well actually, Dick, the 'provenance' of the person making the quote is worth knowing - whether I agree or disagree with it - and, it's normal good practice to give a citation if you're quoting someone else: who, where, when - all of which gives it background. Did it come from a formal music publication, a scholarly paper, a drunken whisper over a bottle of Guinness in O'Hare's Bar, etc...

And why should you then be criticised, if it's not your own statement?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:29 AM

I think this discussion really belongs in The Session, which is more focussed on this sort of thing than the Cat. But Dick seems to have chararteristically turned the anonymous quote inside out. It clearly is NOT saying that all Irish music is antediluvian, and that all English music is made up. It's also NOT saying that all English musicians are middle class (though that's probably a reasonable generalisation).

The statement IS about continuity. Now I know fairly little about the social arrangements for Irish session music in, say, the 1930s, but I do know that in Manchester UK in the 70s, there was a vigorous and vibrant pub- based tradition among the exile community, many of whom were certainly working class- building trade mostly- and who got their music from musicians who were playing back in the 30s. It's notable that Des Donnelly (uncle of the now more famous Dezi) died in a demolition site accident.

At the same time, English music was represented a number of streams. Folk clubs, full of earnest theories about what music classed as "folk"- music hall was often anathematised, and some clubs banned guitars (but allowed banjos). Some of the communists were probably working class. Morris melodeonists and fiddlers, dressed in felt weskits and kneebritches and sporting remarkable arrays of badges. Some may have been car mechanics, but the ones I knew were (to stereotype) teachers. EFDSS and (worse still) Playford dancers. Obsessed with getting the steps right, dancing more to scratched records on the Dansette than to live players- and when they did exist, it was usually a tinkly piano- the description middle- class and middle- aged didn't do justice to them. It was like the Church of England dancing, and even the ones in their twenties seemed staid as my maiden aunt.

There were exceptions to this- the glorious (and continuous) Northumbrian tradition which I only knew by repute, but farmer Billy Pigg was an example of the social setup. The Coppers- but did any other Sussex families participate in this tradition?

So as for the quote making sense, it seems a perfectly good starting point for a discussion. That might, among other things, address the question of whether the saving of European civilisation by 7th century Irish missionaries was repaid partly by the harbouring of Irish musicians in England during the thirty- year Taliban period that gripped Ireland after independence.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: stallion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM

HU! Dunno who first mooted it but it is a take which whilst I don't agree with it per se it has hit on something. Englishness and it's variants swallow up cultures and displace them and the Scots, Irish and Welsh have fiercely clung to their indegenous traditions and spent money time and effort to prevent it disappearing. The American/English culture variant has set about swallowing up the world and there is an argument to say that the English "revival" was a kick against the new consuming culture and ideology. In the 1950's had you said that the NHS was to be privatised, the French government would own the majority of power stations and everyone would have mobile phones you would have been tarred and feathered and laughed out of town. Rather than broken I think, as Dick has already pointed out, that it was changing beyond recognition and some people decided there was enough worth saving. Most people the world over, when they wanted to learn english would speak with an english accent now the american twang is everywhere probably due to films and television, the arts and that bloody phoney yankee accent of the british pop singers, oh is it "mid atlantic", pet hate sorry, I believe you should sing with your own accent. Rant over. These changes are bottom up and the only way to prevent it is to legislate against it which is ridiculous, the Welch for instance insist that public servants speak Welch I bet it doesn't stop them from playing for the national rugby team, speaking Welch will be way down the list of priorities! Even being born only figures marginally, a cousin once farted in Swansea whilst doing his national service "That's good enough, you're in boyo" That last rant is an unreasonable pop at the winners of the six nations and the only team to beat England, I was really sorry to see Ireland get stuffed at Twickers, they have been such a good team for such a long time the last fifteen minutes were heart rendering, now had that been Wales!!!!

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:43 AM

Seán Ó Riada? Terry Wogan?

Can we please judge the comment without knowing the authors background.

No. You passed your judgement when you knew. Please allow the rest of us the same privlege.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:58 AM

It clearly is NOT saying that all Irish music is antediluvian, and that alI English music is made up."
I have not said that he is saying that.
Snail,because I made a comment on the statement[ not the same thing as passing judgement.. passing judgement implies that i might not change my mind] that is no reason why i should obey your imperious commands who do you think you are napoleon?.
if we were in a pub together and you talked to me like that, I would tell you to fuck off,
Burke,it is not a reasonable generalisation to say english musicians are middle class, its f####stupid and irrelevant, what has class got to do with music, everybody that is creative enough to play music should be praised, regardless of class, there is also an implication in the statement that irish musicians are not middle class.
in my experience musicians come from all sorts of different back grounds, but bringing class into the statement is not relevantand is just a bit of flaming.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: paul vaughan
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:01 AM

I look at this way. Last night I was playing a St. Patricks night gig in my local pub. We played some irish songs which I sang in a fake irish accent, some country songs which were sung in fake american accents, some blues tunes sung in that dodgy gruff manner that we all know and love from decades of pub bands pretending to be "bluesmen" and a version of Dirty Old Town which I tried not to sing in an irish accent but, for some reason, ended up coming out as a sort of australian/northen hybrid!
The bar was full of people in dodgy irish hats, gallons of Guiness was sold to people who never normally touch the stuff and there was much fun,frolics and general debauchery had by all! The only thing missing was a decent punch up!
If that aint traditional, I don't know what is!!!!!

p.s. Please be gentle with me, I've got the mother of all hangovers. :-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:10 AM

Can we please judge the comment without knowing the authors background.

No, I am not prepared to judge the comment without knowing the authors background. You passed your comment when you knew. Please allow the rest of us the same privlege.

Better?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:18 AM

Methinks the Copper Family of Rottingdean are living proof of the bollocks of this statement, an unbroken tradition going back several hundred years. I think the Good Soldier is again doing his best to stir up an arguement where none exists, if he won't name the author of the said statement one can only assume he said it himself.

Dave H

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

Well Dick, if you spoke to me like that in a pub, I'd shove your concertina up your arse before punching your nose through the back of your head. You seem to have a talent for twisting everything that's said to your own interpretation. Read what I wrote again, with the aid of a dictionary if you posess one- though It appears that you are marginally literate- and then start the discussion with a clear understanding of what I thought of the value of the anonymous quotation.

But before you do identify whom you are quoting.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: doc.tom
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:22 AM

Okay - I'll judge on the comment alone: It's wrong! It sounds more like an Harperesque politically (note small 'p') based commentary than an analysis based on knowledge.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:29 AM

I could suggest that interested parties might take the trouble to read the thread on the Session. I'll forgive you for ignoring the flippant contributions from yours truly. ;-)

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/29539

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:50 AM

Doc Tom, is able to make a judgement on a comment without knowing its author, so why cant the rest of you.
I do not hate anyone, I have never met the man,
what i hate are predjudiced and ill founded comments that attack traditional music and the folk revival, comments that attack a particular tradition without giving facts to back the statements up, statements that are negative and damaging to music particularly when these statements are ill founded
paul burke, did any other sussex families partake,... yes ....go and check it out.
I am twisting anything to my own interpretation, I provided a quote, which i found annoying because it is erroneous nonsense.
the English instrumental and song tradition is not a broken tradition, tradtions flourish when they are added to, this is something that is happening in both traditions.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:32 AM

It is a remarkably stupid and ill-informed comment. It does not appear to be limited to folk music, but on the face of it (the more so in context) appears to exclude song. It ignores the fact that Irish "traditional" music is a revival of a music that had largely died out (and large chunks of which were art music not folk music) and that most singers of Irish song are middle class pretending to have been throwing grenades in Dublin in 1922 and murdering the English with shillaleghs from about the 1500s to date. It also ignores the fact that most of the "revival" in the UK as far as I saw it (I was around but not interested in folk then) insofar as directed to English folk was more about song than tunes.

I have simplified some terms that I have used.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:34 AM

So why don't you stop bringing your disagreements with him over here! You know very well he's not on this forum. Fine if you say I read this comment over on the Session, give us a link and then explain why you don't agree. No problem. But that isn't what you're about, is it. You didn't even have to give his name, but a link to the thread would have been the right and proper thing to do. And people reading this thread should also know that you and he go back a very long way. You're making a chump of anyone responding to you in this thread who doesn't know all this.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:35 AM

Dick's latest incarnation on TheSesssion

I think he was calling himself John Townsend yesterday. TheSession doesn't provide a name-change history, unfortunately. But it does have an explicit prohibition on multiple userids for the same real-world person - something Dick has repeatedly flouted after getting banned there.

FWIW I don't agree with either Michael's or Dick's positions on that thread, but I'm not about to fake up a sockpuppet to say so.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:37 AM

statements such as the original quote can be mistakenly be thought as a statement coming from an authority on traditional music.
the person in question may or may not be a good player[ i cant comment i have never heard him play] but IMO he clearly does not have very much knowledge of English traditional music.
Paul Burke, check out the following sussex singers and players, shirley collins[learned traditonal english songs from her family]SCAN TESTER[sussex], and bob lewis.
check outthe suffolk tradition too, finally here in ireland the english and irish tradtions are both well, most musicians i have encountered here do not care if a tune is irish or english if itis a good tune they play it, an old tradtional fiddle player [here in ireland that i used to play with was quite happy playing the bluebell polka the girl with the blue dress on, running away with the smoothing iron, the bourton six, or mcleods reel the blackbird , the swallows tail reel.
finally i have lived in areas[suffolk , and ireland and amongst traditional musicans,and played with trad musicians[ask john howson]and i have never encountered the attitude that a certain song or tune could not be played because of its provenance, i remember charlie stringer[east anglia] singing the highwayman outwitted, and carolina moon]he sang a song because he liked it, no other reason. I CAN SPEAK WITH AUTHORITY,I have been there and done it, and furthermore my music is up on the net for all to judge , not like some
you might find this review from musical traditions interesting
Just Another Saturday Night: Sussex 1960

Songs from Country Pubs - Various

Musical Traditions MTCD309-10

Looking back, I think I must have been spoiled. I was born in Worcestershire, spent the next 18 years on the Suffolk/Essex border before moving to London when I was at University. It was there that I started going to the many pubs with Irish music and developed the love for that music that I still retain today. Both of my grandmothers sang. My paternal grandmother was Gaelic speaking. She was born in Co Galway and had many relations back in the west of Ireland. As a schoolboy I often spent the summer holidays over there. I was surrounded by music yet I never really noticed it. I was more interested in Bill Haley, Buddy Holly and later, country blues. Ironically, by the time the folk song revival of the '60s had given me an interest in the music, it was too late to listen to my grandparents. Fortunately for all of us, not every one was as blinkered as I was. Brian Mathews, an enthusiastic amateur, carried a tape recorder with him around Sussex in the late 1950s and early '60s recording traditional singers and musicians wherever he found them.

This is Musical Traditions first CD release of the new century and the second from the Brian Matthews Collection. It features 51 live recordings made in various Sussex Pubs between 1959 and 1965. The bulk of the recordings were made in 1959 and 1960 around mid Sussex. Two very well known singers, George 'Pop' Maynard and George Spicer do get almost half of the tracks between them but there are telling contributions from less well known, or at least less recorded, singers. Cover pictureIt is especially good to see a platform being given to Jim Wilson, Harry Holman and Jim 'Brick' Harber. Harry Holman does contribute one song, There was a Poor Thresherman to Topic's Voice of the People (Topic TSCD670 There is a Man upon the Farm). As far as I know, no other recordings are currently available of any of them. They are all fine singers and deserve to be better known. It was a real delight to hear Harry himself singing his best known song, The Life of a Man. The song gave its name to Ken Stubbs book of songs he collected in Southern England and was much sung in the revival. The performance here makes a nice contrast with George Townshend's (Come Hand to Me the Glass MTCD304). George, singing in his own home, is rather more restrained, but both sing the song very well. Brick Harber is not a singer I had previously heard. That was my loss. He has a strong, deep voice and a style which is not quite typical of that found in Southern England - he was born in the Midlands but moved to Sussex play Sound Clipas a young boy which may explain his singing style. Here he is with The Cabin Boy and the Lady Gay, a song I had never heard before (sound clip). The timing of Brian's recordings was indeed fortuitous as three of these singers - Pop, Jim and Brick - would be gone within the next two years. We could well be hearing Jim and Brick's last recordings so they do have a special historical interest.

The remaining recordings are perhaps even more exciting. They were made in The Three Cups in Punnets Town, near Heathfield in East Sussex in 1965 and feature a previously unknown traveller singer, Sarah Porter and other members of her family. She is an excellent singer in the typical traveller style and several of her songs have been rarely found in the tradition. The South of England in the 1950s and '60s was a popular area for collectors and it seems quite remarkable that such a good singer would, but for Brian Matthews, have slipped through the net. I have to admit to taking a special delight in the traveller singing style. The CD devoted to gypsy singing (My Father s the King of the Gypsies, Topic TSCD661) is amongst my favourites of the Voice of the People CDs that I have heard - and I very much enjoyed MT's earlier offering from Wiggy Smith and family (Band of Gold, MT CD 307). play Sound ClipAt first hearing it is not an easy style but does handsomely repay repeated listening. Sarah's songs include a classic ballad, The Outlandish Knight, a beautiful version of The Bitter Withy and a stunning, if fragmented, The Wind Across the Wild Moor (sound clip). The last of these is really little more than a sentimental 19th century broadside song, but Sarah somehow injects real emotion into the story of a young girl with her baby at her breast freezing to death at her father's door. In intensity of emotion I was reminded of the tale of The Lass of Roch Royal arriving at Lord Gregory's door with their dead baby. Brian Mattews tells us that Sarah's sons are still living in Punnets Town. Is there any chance of an ongoing family singing tradition?

Having moved to Sussex in the mid '70s, I was fortunate to have heard three of the featured singers in person. I have been pleasantly surprised by all of their performances here. Louie Sanders (Fuller) is still with us and still singing. She contributes just the one song, Young Maria, a version of the song I know as Oxford City. It is not a very complete version of the song but somehow it says as much in 5 short verses as many songs do in twice the number. The performance is superb. It is one of the outstanding tracks here - I have never heard her sing better. By the time I got to hear Cyril Phillips, he was doing his country yokel act. play Sound ClipThe songs he sings here are light hearted and mostly of music hall origin, bur they are all very enjoyable it's also quite obvious that the crowd is having great fun. I especially enjoyed The Rest of the Day is Your Own. So too do his audience - just listen to the final verse (sound clip). On these CD s he sounds a much better singer than I remember.

The real revelation to me though is George Spicer. I heard him only on a couple of occasions (I was more familiar with his son Ron), but I did buy his Topic LP, Blackberry Fold. I'm afraid he was never really one of my favourite singers so I was surprised when reading back through the notes I had made whilst listening to these CDs at just how many times I had written positive comments against his tracks. The Folkestone Murder is one of two songs from the earlier LP that reappears here. In the notes it is described as "A horrible song with few redeeming graces". It is certainly a very unpleasant story, but George's performance is outstanding, certainly much superior to that on the Topic LP. The tune is not really very special. I thought it rather slight for such a dramatic and tragic song. George sings with great style and control and unfolds the story quite beautifully. By the end of the song I was genuinely moved by the plight of Caroline and her sister. What better testament could there be to the quality of the singing? play Sound ClipThroughout the CDs he has such a presence and commands attention even in a noisy bar. I can understand now why he was held in such esteem by his fellow singers. He was still a relatively young man and in fine voice so these could well be the definitive recordings of him. Here he is with The Scarlet and the Blue complete with rousing patriotic chorus (sound clip). It s a song which, along with The Life of a Man and The Oak and the Ash, I have been driving my colleagues at work to distraction with for the past two weeks.

'Pop' Maynard is, with some justification, regarded as one of the great Southern English singers. He was a true country man and spent his whole life on the Surrey/Sussex border. In his time, he engaged in all manner of country occupations and crafts. He had a large and varied repertoire, including several classic ballads. His singing style is typical of Southern England. He does not use exaggerated ornamentation but instead uses more subtle effects like slowing or speeding the tune or including a slight pause to heighten the dramatic impact. In common with many other singers from the area he frequently repeats the last two lines of each verse. This works very well in a pub setting with the repeated lines acting as a refrain that the audience can join in with. play Sound Clip Pop was almost 90 when these recordings were made, but do not be put off by that. His singing has a vitality and energy that quite belies his advancing years. Here he is, with audience participation, singing The Poor Weaver's Daughter (sound clip). Other outstanding performance from him here include The Week Before Easter, Down by the Seaside and William Lennard. Brian Matthews recorded a total of 29 songs from him in 1959/60 of which just 11 appear here. Had more been included, the CDs would have had a rather unbalanced feel. It would also have meant limiting the contributions of some other singers. Amongst the songs not included here are two of Pop's best known songs, Polly on the Shore and William Taylor, good versions of ballads like Broomfield Hill and stock country songs including Sweet Primroses and While Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping. No doubt, at least some of these will feature on a future Topic production. In the meanwhile, all Brian Matthews' recordings of him are available from MT on (Down the Cherry Tree, MTCD400-1).

The performances are well varied. There are perhaps more ballads (including two versions each of Oxford City and William Leonard, both of which songs are known under a myriad of titles) and fewer songs with a music hall origin than I might have expected and just a couple of pieces of music. The playing order has been well chosen so that there is a nice mix of singers and serious songs sit comfortably alongside the more light-hearted ones. This careful programming makes it easy to listen to the CDs through at a single sitting.

With so many fine tracks to choose from, it does seem rather invidious to single out individual ones for special mention but there were four that delighted me, each for rather different reasons. I have always thought of Scan Tester as the archetypal Southern English musician rather than a singer, but here he sings The Lakes of Coldflynn, in a nice, if rather, straightforward way. I never thought I would hear an English traditional version of The Croppy Boy, which for some inexplicable reason has always been a favourite song of mine, but it turns up here sung well by Ted and Bet Porter. I suppose it was inevitable that if anyone in England were to sing it, it would be Travellers. They seem to have a special affection for songs of Irish rebellion. Over the years, I have become attuned to associating Spencer the Rover with the Copper Family so it was good to hear an admittedly incomplete version from Jim Wilson. The Coppers are the repository of so many of these songs and, probably because the current generations are still singing them (and long may they continue to do so), it is easy to think of their version as the definitive one. It is just as easy to forget that they do also crop up quite frequently in the repertoire of other Southern singers. Finally, hearing Bill Agate playing an untitled Polka on mouth organ and tambourine reminded me that Scan Tester really was not the only musician from Sussex!

Musical Traditions have previously set a high standard with the booklets that support their CDs. The one that accompanies this release is the longest yet - it runs to 36 A5 pages and is nicely illustrated and full of useful, interesting and well-researched information. In addition to the usual, excellent song notes, there are thumbnail sketches of the singers and musicians and a contribution from Reg Hall explaining how these Sussex pub sessions came about. If his conclusion is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it , then we have much to thank Mervyn Plunkett for. I was especially impressed with the piece based on Vic Smith's interviews with Bob Lewis. It does really evoke memories of times gone by. It also contains the news that George Spicer's wife was a fine singer too and that her son, Ron, made recordings of her. I wonder where they are now?

I have just two minor niggles. The song notes to The Bitter Withy include a side-swipe at Peter Kennedy. Whatever the rights or wrongs, I do not believe a CD booklet is the place to air such views. Secondly, the booklet notes on the MT website include a lovely line drawing of Jim Wilson by Audrey Matthews. I hope this can be included in any future reprint. [Audrey Matthews' fine sketch of Jim looks very poor at the sort of size which can be accommodated in a booklet, but can be displayed far larger and better on the website; that was the reason for my decision - Ed.]

Can I also add a couple of comments to the song notes. Regarding The Pride of Kildare, Rod Stradling says "Not a song I've encountered before" but it is a song I remember quite often being sung by revival singers in the 1960s. I also vaguely recall that I once had a version on LP with pipe accompaniment, so that suggests The McPeakes. I did own a Fontana LP, I guess issued about 1966, by younger members of the family which certainly included Brennan on the Moor.

My father hardly ever sang, but at family gatherings he was sometimes pressed into singing what I took to be his only song, the final verse only of Do You Want us to Lose the War (sung on the CD by Bill Porter). Dad was a regular soldier, a Sapper who was stationed for many years between the wars at Chatham, so I would guess the Army to be the likely source for the song.

There are several other CDs of pub singing available. John Howson has just released the famous recordings the BBC made at the Eel's Foot, Eastbridge in 1939 and 1947 as Good Order (Veteran 140CD). Neil Lanham has 3 CDs of recordings made some 20 years later at Butley Oyster, the Eel's Foot and Snape Crown (NLCD3, NLCD7, NLCD8). These do all include much fine singing. The next projected release in the British series of Rounder's Lomax Collection is The Blaxhall Ship Recordings.

The Musical Traditions CD is the only one that is not from Suffolk and, for me, wins out, not just because I am an adopted son of Sussex, but mainly by virtue of the sheer quality and variety of performance and the very detailed accompanying leaflet. These are live pub recordings made on a domestic tape recorder so inevitably there is some background noise and the singers are not always accorded the best of order. Nevertheless, the recording quality is never less than adequate and the quality of performance rises above any such considerations.

Rod Stradling and his team of collaborators have, over the past couple of years, produced a valuable series of recordings of British traditional singing. This could well be their finest achievement to date, giving us as it does performances from George Spicer, Cyril Phillips and Louie Fuller in their prime and other excellent singers who are not available elsewhere on record. If you have any interest in English singing, this CD is essential listening. Those of us who love and value this music owe a vote of thanks to MT for making these recordings available, to Brian Matthews for having the foresight to make the original recordings, to Chris Hickson who generously sponsored the production costs, but most of all to the singers. Let's hope that such records encourage us to sing their songs again - what better memorial could there be for them? play Sound ClipI have only the one regret that I was not present when these recordings were made. What wonderful evenings they must have been. Just try listening to Jack Arnell and company with Scan Tester playing in the background, without joining in (sound clip). Such sessions are probably gone for ever so I will just have to make do with this lovely CD.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:44 AM

Jack, you are both wrong I am not banned from the session, however what happens on another forum is not relevant.
I wish to discuss it on this forum , because this forum is properly moderated.
I am going to ask to have steves posts removed as they are attacks upon me, i do not hate Michael , I dislike alot of his trolling and ill founded opinions, but prefer to discuss them on a properly moderated site
Jack as a detective, [if i wish to use the session i can do so under my own name or my partner Cathy Cook], you are barking up the wrong tree, please stop this crap.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

All you had to do was tell us where you read the comment and give us a link (and, because of your propensity for changing your name every two minutes, I didn't know until Jack mentioned it that you were involved in that thread, even though I am myself). It's a complete mystery as to why you didn't do that in the first place. Or maybe it isn't.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 09:04 AM

And I've now said all I'm going to say on the matter (probably). OK, Joe! ;-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 09:14 AM

For completeness, and as a courtesy to the author, I will add for you that the review you quote above from Musical Traditions

(Just Another Saturday Night: Sussex 1960
Songs from Country Pubs - Various
Musical Traditions MTCD309-10)

was written by Roger Johnson and dated 13.2.01.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM

It's this bit that tickles me most -

It's quite possible that English music could well have been as good as Irish music

Sounds like something one of the bhoyos that has never been to either place would say.

:D tG

(Ducking and running)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 09:53 AM

Dick
Of course the statement is wrong, but it looks as if it is a heat of the moment reply to some similar insult. It is a gross generalisation which does however have some truth in it, and the Irish situation is almost a mirror image of the English, Scottish etc situation, in that there is some continuity, but a great deal of all is actually new traditions with different types of personnel involved.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 10:05 AM

Surely "is English or Irish music better?" can stand as a textbook example of a meaningless question.

Though I would have to qualify that statement by adding that there is a vigorous tradition of popularized, sentimental "Irish" music which is worse than almost anything else I can think of.

Jon Corelis
The summer will come: an Irish song

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:03 AM

So you can't judge the truth or validity of a statement without knowing the author's name! Like that's how you determine how you ought to think. ("If G. W. Bush says it's raining, obviously it's a lie....")

First-year university classes call this arguing ad hominem, and it's bogus.

A statement finally stands or falls on its own without regard to who said it.

The original quote, as annoying as it may be, is of little significance. It's partly factual (for example, English tradition really was about done by about 1900), but mostly it's just an expression of taste ("I don't like English music; so don't try to revive it").

And there's no factual arguing about taste. (Not that you can't try to influence somebody else's taste, but doing so still isn't establishing a fact.)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Logician
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

'A statement finally stands or falls on its own without regard to who said it.'

Bollix

Compare 'There will be a 2.5% increase in VAT.' as said by a) the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or b) Russell Grant.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:23 PM

The truth of the statement is based on the facts, not who says it.

So if GWB says it's raining, you won't believe it even if you feel the drops yourself.

Good luck to you!

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:26 PM

Yes, but if the facts are, or appear to be, indeterminable, then it's not as clear cut as you make out. The statement quoted by Dick was not fact but opinion - not at all the same thing, and not to be compared with raindrops.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Logician
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:38 PM

Lighter, you don't seem to understand either formal logic or the ad hominem argument.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:03 PM

"The big difference between English and Irish music is that the English tradition is a broken one."

As regards recreational instrumental music, I think this is incontovertible. Some parts of English music survived, notably Northumbrian. And the Gypsy tradition preserved some- though not until recently much explored.

"It was lost and then made up. It's sad."

I think most people would agree that the loss of, say, Lancashire bagpiping is incredibly sad. The playing styles of the post- 70s revival of English instrumental music doesn't sound much like old recordings I've heard. Though I'd love to be corrected.

"It's quite possible that English music could well have been as good as Irish music, and I'm certain that English music heavily influenced Irish music in a positive way."

Most people would agree that when the English instrumental tradition was living, there was a great deal of cross- fertilisation between that and other neighboring traditions. The repertoire of common tunes attests this.

"But it was lost and that's that. And I'd rather you cried about it than tried to revive it with hopelessly shallow middle class earnestness"

This is a statement of opinion. The Irish style of playing has changed radically over the years, at least as evidenced by old recordings- particularly as regards accompaniment. But its change has been evolutionary rather than recreation.

Middle- class or classless, the tone of the early revival was definitely earnest. Nobody on the other hand could accuse the following generation of being over- earnest. But in the absence of continuity, much is necessarily recreated - the "made up" that some people have taken exception to.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:21 PM

The original quote, boiled down, is a statement of personal preference, not a statement of fact.

I like Coke. You like Pepsi. Who's right?

But back to facts for a moment. Even when a source may be biased or lying, the truth still isn't based on what he or she *says*.

It's based on independently observable facts.

The future of a tax is not a fact. It's a prediction or a promise. Predictions and promises aren't facts: at best they're opinions, or statements of intention, and at worst they're lies to get your support. If I say, for example, "Elect me and I'll revoke Obamacare," maybe I will and maybe I won't. If I say, "With a stroke of this pen I, President Palin, will revoke Obamacare in the next ten seconds," it's still just a promise, albeit one likely to be fulfilled.

If you believe that a fact is are indeterminate, that in itself means you're thinking independently. You don't need the source's name. Of course, when it comes to a factual claim, you'll be safer in distrusting an unidentifiable source.

The truth of a fact is independent of the person who asserts it. If I feel the raindrops, or if I don't, it doesn't matter what GWB or President Palin says. What matters is feeling the rain.

If it's expert knowledge you want ("Space aliens are real!" "Space aliens aren't real!" "Maybe space aliens are real!"), you may have to choose from disagreeing experts (including self-proclaimed fake "experts"). But that has nothing to do with the reality or unreality of space aliens. They're real or they're not, regardless of who says so. It just means that maybe you'll choose the wrong expert.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Logician
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

Long message, Lighter, but it still proves your ignorance of logic and the ad hominem argument. Even worse, you don't understand the meaning of 'statement'!

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:44 PM

This topic would be inconsequential if it were not for the historical enmity between
England and Ireland. The crossover must be obvious to anyone who has intensely listened to the music and for that matter, this would include the U.S.

All tradition is broken to some extent and continuity may be real or manufactured and in the field of folk music, I suspect the latter prevails more.

From the standpoint of DNA, scientists have found little difference in any of the British Isles
peoples and it would follow that music would be similar.

The musical diversity might be regional which is a good thing. This is not a national characteristic but a localized one which finds different varieties of English or Irish music depending on which towns, farms, etc. are in question.

Is there an English, Irish or American music that can be measurable? Music from Cornwall differs from the Ring of Kerry or Donegal but traces of similar musical elements can be found in both.

My question is, what is the purpose in defining a national music? Is it a ploy to create jingoist views or to honor traditions from areas in each country?

This is why I think that much work needs to be done in ethnomusicology and folklore still to determine the value of the area music lest it be co-opted by a musical imperialism
involving the commercial music business.

We can start with the background of the song and the singer. I think we have to separate the two from a studied point of view since many traditional singers have sung songs that are pop songs and not necessarily from their own cultural background.

My view is that we define and slice and dice music for the purpose of understanding it
better without losing sight that all music is historically connected as in evolution of
species. If we go back enough time can we not determine that Irish and English music have antecedents that are perhaps a root form?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:34 PM

[rolls eyes]

I agree with Frank.

SRS

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:39 PM

In some of the above posts it would be useful (perhaps) to distinguish between "recreation" - ie enjoyment and re-creation" ie the re-making of something.

It is my understanding (from Dick's previous posts, before capital letters were invented, and related arguments from various sides) that Irish instrumental traditional folk music was to all intents and purposes extinct as a folk-form before the Comhaltas-led re-creation. I don't like it so I don't much care but it's what I understand to be the case.

In England it seems that whether there was a "revival" or not at least the Watersons and the Coppers were still singing English folk song as folk song and as the former and to same extent as the latter as folk singers.

Traveller communities both in the UK and Ireland were still I think indulging in folk music (somewhat more cross-fertilised) into the late 60s and perhaps later still. They add to the argument that there was continuity in both places.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:54 PM

'It is my understanding (from Dick's previous posts, before capital letters were invented, and related arguments from various sides) that Irish instrumental traditional folk music was to all intents and purposes extinct as a folk-form before the Comhaltas-led re-creation.'

Sorry Richard, that is a monumental misconception.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Reinhard
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM

Wikipedia says in the article Folk Music of Ireland:

"From the end of the second world war until the late fifties folk music was held in low regard. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann (an Irish traditional music association) and the popularity of the Fleadh Cheoil (music festival) helped lead the revival of the music. The English Folk music scene also encouraged and gave self confidence to many Irish musicians. Following the success of The Clancy Brothers in the USA in 1959, Irish folk music became fashionable again."

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:46 PM

"held in low regard" and "to all intents and purposes extinct" are roughly the difference between an ASBO and hanging.

Yes, Comhltas brought government support and the Clancy Brothers made it sexy, but the old diddly diddle was going on, in Ireland, England and America, as witnessed by the large number of high quality commercial recordings from the 1900s to the 1950s.

And all those fine musicians of Camden Town didn't pick it up from nowhere.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:28 PM

Comhaltas came into existence in 1951, because Irish music in Ireland faced extinction, it had very nearly died out completely IN Ireland because the catholic church had banned housedances, it had also got in this state in Ireland because many people had left ireland to seek work elsewhere, and because IRELAND had lost a lot of people in the first world war and to a lesser extent the second world war, ireland also lost population in the civil war.
PaulBurke here is a quote
Foundation

Comhaltas was founded in 1951 in Mullingar, County Westmeath by a group of traditional pipers who felt that the Irish musical tradition was in decline. It was the most successful in a series of attempts around this time by lovers of Irish culture to revive the country's rich musical heritage and to publicise and bring it to a wider audience.
PeterLaban, if it is monumental misconception, please explain why Comhaltas was formed.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM

I will not be intimidated, if I choose to discuss a staement discussing traditional music, I will do so,furthermore I will choose which forum i want to discuss it , without your permission. Michael is free to enter the discussion as a guest,or even join, but there are rules on this forum that are enforced and this forum is [most of the time] moderated.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:07 PM

if we were in a pub together and you talked to me like that, I would tell you to fuck off,

Sorry, but I've just spotted someone I need to talk to in the other bar. Do excuse me. Must dash. Let's get together sometime and talk about this. It's terribly interesting. Tootle pip.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:17 PM

more polite than this;
Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Paul Burke - PM
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

Well Dick, if you spoke to me like that in a pub, I'd shove your concertina up your arse before punching your nose through the back of your head. You seem to have a talent for twisting everything that's said to your own interpretation. Read what I wrote again, with the aid of a dictionary if you posess one- though It appears that you are marginally literate- and then start the discussion with a clear understanding of what I thought of the value of the anonymous quotation.

But before you do identify whom you are quoting."
   by the way Paul,it is a good idea if you are going to call me marginally literate to spell the word posess correctly.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:40 PM

The English Folk music scene also encouraged and gave self confidence to many Irish musicians

ha ha ha

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:00 PM

The English Folk music scene also encouraged and gave self confidence to many Irish musicians
ha ha ha

Brian Finnegan and Mick McGoldrick, for two, have managed pretty successful careers while mainly being based in England.

Contrariwise, can you think of even one English musician who's managed to make a career of playing English music in Ireland?

England has always been reasonably open to other people's folk music. Could do better, but then who couldn't?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:02 PM

Noreen,the above statement is true of singers, examples are luke kelly,donal maguire[through the critics group].
Dolores Keane was encouraged as a singer as was Christy Moore and Andy Irvine,Sean Cannon, the musician Packie Byrne, in the part of England I lived in.... East Anglia, musicians like John and Julia Clifford,
as were jackie Daly and Seamus Creagh in london clubs, lucy Farr used to be booked at swindon and islington.
the same applies to margaret barry and michael gorman singer and instrumentalist, also freddie mckay. sorry but thats quite a lot

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:11 PM

Jack,Ireland is improving slightly in that regard, I was booked at skibbereen club and asked specifically to sing English songs, ihave been booked many times at cork folk club and been asked to sing english as well as irish songs.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:11 PM

Well, the facts from Reinhardt and additions from Dick seem to support my view.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:03 AM

Quoting McGoldrick as an example of a player "encouraged by the English folk scene" shows complete lack of understanding of the culture in which they developed.

Yes- players like McGoldrick and Dezi Donnelly were English by birth (of Irish family) and their music developed in England- in Manchester to be precise.

But not in the English folk scene. Incubated in the Comhltas competition scramble, they developed through bands revolving round the Manchester Irish pub session scene. This had very little to do with English folk- of which they tended to be somewhat contemptuous. As a beginner on the whistle, one fine old player (Jimmy Taylor if I recall aright) praised my style as "very folkloric". I took the hint.

Judging by recent posts over on The Session, those sessions have all but died. There was a plaintive quest about Manchester sessions recently- twenty tears ago you would have had a choice of three within a couple of hundred yards of each other, and half a dozen others if you went two or three miles further afield. Pubcos and their serf tenants don't want sessions, they want football on TV.