“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…

Subject: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:47 PM

“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's…

There’s a newspaper article reporting comments by Barbara Dickson in relation to the music in Sandy Bells. I also had a lot of respect for Barbara and have enjoyed her music for many years. However, I’m quite upset about her comments here.

[long link removed so page would wrap properly] ---mudelf
Sorry about the long link..

Of course, the pub has changed over the years but there’s nothing wrong with with the quality of the music albeit the sessions tend to be more “organised” these days. However, there were tunes in Bells as far back as the seventies and many legendary musicians e.g. Jock Tamson’s Bairns and many more cut their teeth there.

I am hoping that Barbara was misquoted/represented by a young unknowledgeable journalist as I’d like to think she was a lot more charitable than that.

Anyway even if the music wasn’t great, that’s not the point. It’s all about people getting together for a tune or song and not “big names”.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:49 PM

Here's a shorter link but it's still too big for the "blue clicky" facility

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-pubs-barbara-dickson-upset-by-musicians-making-a-racket-in-famous-edinburgh-pub-4884093

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: DaveRo
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:57 PM

Johnny J wrote: still too big for the "blue clicky" facility

Use my Simple linkifier

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-pubs-barbara-dickson-upset-by-musicians-making-a-racket-in-famous-edinburgh-pub-4884093

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:10 PM

Thanks Dave....

I also realise part of the article was behind a pay wall. So, here it is in full..

"Fife-raised chart-topper Barbara Dickson, who now lives in the Capital has said she gets “very upset” when she hears fiddle players in Sandy Bell’s “making a racket” and feels like telling them to “shut up”.

The multi-million-selling artist, who recently announced her Farewell Tour, was a regular at the famous Forrest Road pub back in the mid-1960s. But Dickson, 77, told the 'A Kick Up The Arts' podcast that “everybody has a completely wrong idea of what Sandy Bell’s was”, adding that “it was not a music pub”.

Recalling what the boozer was like in her younger days, she said: “The first archway, forward of that to the door was all regulars, like crusty old guys with flat caps on with their pints of light, probably in those days. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the arty-farty crowd at the back.

“We would meet at the back, by the ladies’ loo door, there could be 20 of us. We would be Edinburgh people and also people coming through like Billy Connolly, Gerry Rafferty, Tam Harvey and people from Glasgow, and we’d all just stand with our pints at the back.
“Nobody took out instruments and eventually somebody – usually someone like the late Derek Moffat, who was a wonderful member of The McCalmans – would burst into song a capella and we would all join in. That was Sandy Bell’s to me.

“We did that all over the place. You didn’t presume to take a guitar out of a case, it was like taking the mickey.”

Dickson continued: “This is why I get very upset when I hear rather lamentable fiddle playing in Sandy Bell’s. I feel like going up and saying ‘excuse me, do you think you could just shut up, because that’s horrible, that racket you’re making. You need to go and listen to Aly Bain, and then come back’. "

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:41 PM

It's Sandy Bell's, you moron!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:50 PM

It was actually called The Forest Hill Bar in Barbara's younger days but I won't stoop to the last poster's level.

Maybe Joe could correct my typo? However, I probably drank in Sandy Bell's Bar before this "Groovy" gadge was born.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 03:51 PM

We all have start somewhere Barbara.
Don't forget that.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 06:39 PM

Admirable restraint shown by JJ.
Archie Fisher tells us she used to ask friends for spare change to get transport home,
only to be seen hailing a taxi. He joked she was a star even then.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 08:28 PM

Interesting that her last sentence recommends a performer who got banned from Sandy Bells for life.

I wonder if Dickson ever got on the naughty list too?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:17 AM

Not just Sandy Bell's. The Scotia in Glasgow was a great singing pub, but gradually 'the plague of fiddlers' took over, became incessant, and drove song out! They were so competitive too.
Eventually microphones and formal performance had to be instituted.
Last time I was in Sandy Bell's, I took English friends, and was asked to stop singing after two songs, because a fiddle featuring group were being paid to start. The Royal Oak was more welcoming.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:21 AM

PS - the two songs in Sandy Bell's were one from me and one from my guests.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:35 AM

Barbara Dickson, reminds me of the Hurlers on the Ditch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVMSLHDdRw8

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:45 AM

Hi Ewan,

I don't want to revisit the Musicians V Singers debate although I feel uncomfortable about the "Plague of Fiddlers" comment.... Incidentally, I've also seen the same thing happen the other way around when a few musicians are having a quiet tune and singers have attended "en masse".

However, it's basically all about good manners and respect whatever view you adopt.

Sandy Bell's began to become a predominantly "tune oriented" pub from the seventies onwards although there were still singers who attended there. These days, you will still get some songs as well depending on what night you go.

The main difference is that things are much more organised these days and, as you say, the main session musicians are "booked" to play and they all have their own "This is my" nights. Some are more welcoming that others but this happens in many establishments.

In Edinburgh, singing is usually welcome in The Captains and The Royal Oak and there are other possibilities too. Probably even more now than back in the day.

Re the Royal Oak, I recall that one of the reasons it took off in the early eighties was that Sandy Bells wasn't that conducive to singing even then. Also, The Waverley Bar had declined in popularity too. there was still music there but it tended to be more formal. So the casual and cosy "wee room" downstairs in the Oak was ideal at the time for singers whether unaccompanied or with minimum instrumentation.

Having said all that, I agree that establishments do change over time for better or worse. However, others usually emerge to take their place. It's constantly changing but there's no point on us all forever dwelling on the past.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:57 AM

“We would meet at the back, by the ladies’ loo door, there could be 20 of us." 20 - that is not, and never was, physically possible.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 06:15 AM

Yes, even although the lay out has slightly changed these days.

However, it was always the case that the "folkies" and now "trad musicians" tended to gather at the far end of the pub and still do to this day.

The clientele at the front of the bar has changed over the years though. It did used to be the more "regular hardened drinkers" and "auld worthy" types in the old days and there was often a very clear demarcation although some of us did tend mix in both circles at least some of the time.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 07:56 AM

Sandy Bell's would not be my choice of pub for music, since I went in with a friend some years ago: we were thinking we might like to try a song, but the back area was occupied by a tight group of young things all hunched over a table, playing tunes at break-neck speed without any breaks. They never looked up or acknowledged anyone coming into the area, so we just finished our half-pints and left. Maybe not like that every night, but put me off going back.
My preference would be for Captain's or The Royal Oak any day, where you are much more likely to get a mix of songs and tunes, ---- and a pleasant welcome.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 08:18 AM

Yes, probably "not like that every night" (I've not been in for a while myself) but it does seem to be much more that way compared to the days of old.

Sunday afternoon sessions are still more relaxed with an "older crowd" and I believe Wednesday is good too. It clashes with the folk club though.

I remember Sandy Bell's as far back as the seventies(I was a relative latecomer and my first folkie pub was The Waverley... I also visited the likes of The Nicky Tams, Yellow Carvel, Cottars Howff, various establishments in Royal Terrace and many more. Folk *singing* was very popular back then)

In those days, the music was less organised and often spontaneous although some nights would attract a fairly regular crowd of musicians and followers.
The popularity of the pub declined slightly during the early eighties after Jimmy Cairney's time and when Maureen(known to regulars as The Phantom Belle) took over. After that, Mary was the manager for a few years. She was a good soul but her hands were tied by the brewery.

Things improved greatly when Tommy and Charlie Woolley took charge in the mid eighties. Charlie was later to become sole owner and the pub went through a very good period during that time..especially as regards music, sessions, and even the beer improved greatly.

New management again and they are doing their best I'm sure but I think the pub has a slightly different feel these days.
However, as I said, nothing ever stands still nor should we expect it to do so.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 10:55 AM

I doubt if Aly Bain was barred for playing his fiddle.... Barbara's description of the Forrest Hill Bar as I knew it in the late 60s sounds about right- I wouldnt know about the present 'Sandy Bell's' version, but it sounds all too familiar generally, but I'm even older than Barbara, with me.mories of that time- the Marsden Rattlers were regular daytime visitors.

   And the mention that 20 people would fill it reminds me of the wonderful John Eaglesham's verse in his 'Inveroran' song

'Noo the bar at Inveroran's not the biggest one you've seen
   I once was in with fifteen blokes but they were very lean
   I heard they once got twenty in wi' using Vaseline
   Aye it's cosy in the bar at Inveroran'

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 11:33 AM

Great song, Jim.
I remember John singing it too at various festivals over the years.

Yes, everything changes and it suits some people better than others. If that's what the bar and its regular customers want, so be it.

As I (and Trish) said, there are still singing opportunities in other Edinburgh bars and more informal music sessions too. Almost every bar I know is different from what it was 50-60 years ago for better or worse.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:03 PM

It’s all about people getting together for a tune or song and not “big names” QUOTE
I agree

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:33 PM

LOVE the Inveroran song! Still being sung by others since John departed.
Have been part of the "sardine or Vaseline experience" in our local pub (sadly now shut!) on Jan 2 every year when everyone assembled for a song and a tune. If one person started to sway in time to the music, everyone had to sway!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:50 PM

An old person grumbling about how things have changed. Some things never change.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 03:38 PM

It's part of the job description, 'meself'.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 07:48 PM

Does my old cobber Michael Gill still do Sandy Bell's?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 11:42 PM

never heard of him

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 05:39 AM

To be a little fairer on Barbara, it transpires that these quotes were taken from a longer podcast.

https://youtu.be/pdzTtZDaLIw

After listening to the actual interview on the podcast, her comments taken IN context don’t sound quite as bad although there are obviously some negative aspects.

It was just a segment of a much longer interview where Barbara was telling her “story”.

As I suggested at the start, the quotes look much worse when they have been selectively reported elsewhere in various newspapers.

Basically, she’s just reminiscing about how times have changed. She might have chosen her words more wisely but there’s probably much less harm intended than it first appears

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 10:17 AM

Didn't quite sound like herstyle. Just goes to show what the papers say isn't always complete, I'm thinking "Reports of my death have been exaggerated" here.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 12:32 PM

I've only seen Michael Gill playing once - he did Tuesdays and it was (as far as I know) a purist Irish session, not my thing. I hadn't heard that he stopped.

He did leave TheSession, I think. Their most interesting and most banned member. I'm not surprised he quit after one too many "you can't say that here"s from Jeremy. I packed it in long before for the same reason.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 04:08 PM

I think you were the most interesting of the members

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 04:44 PM

I'm still there but rarely post. Jezza did take a firm grip on things but it became anodyne. Sandy Bell's seemed to be Michael's go-to place. For years, he and I hated each other's guts, but we ended up seeing eye-to-eye on most things and getting on really well offline. As you say, he had an interesting (and bullshit-free) take on things.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 05:04 PM

Is the opinion of Barbara Dickson on the quality of the imstrumental playing, of any consequence

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 06:35 PM

Michael was not fond of sessions being indiscriminately publicized. At one point he found a loophole in TheSession's listing interface and shifted the location of Sandy Bell's to 20 miles out of town beside an offramp on the M8.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 02:36 AM

I think that is rather a negative approach, someone else is trying to run a session and he tries to mess it up

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 03:28 AM

"Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power." — Shirley MacLaine

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 04:27 AM

All the "sessions" I went to over 25 years were gloriously un-run by anyone at all!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 04:37 AM

the positive aspect of session .org is the resources of sheet music.

as a medium of discussion it fails like many internet sites, because of some of the people that use it who are either negative and or argumentative, and it fails because there is no body language as a means of communication
I know of two people who used it who were in fact beginners but contributed as if they were experts.
I am not refrring to Michael Gill, who by all accounts wasa very competent musician.
The strength of the site is the sheet music resource, this very day i learned a tune 95 percent by ear, but used a sheet note transcription to get some fine detail, that was eluding me

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:50 AM

"the positive aspect of session .org is the resources of sheet music"

Well, that's actually the most used and visited part of site. I know of many people who check out tunes there who never contribute to discussions and many aren't even members of the forum.

I'm not sure if that's altogether a good thing or not as, while the tune section there is useful, many casual users aren't fully aware of its limitations.
There are lots of non standard settings, some contain errors while a few are just "plain wrong". Even if the tune is the official "composer approved" published version, then this isn't necessarily ideal either as the ethos of the tune section is that members should submit tunes as "played at their local session". Actually, even the composers of tunes don't necessarily play them exactly the same way every time.

However, I'm not "dissing" the facility but its important to understand its limitations. It also gets unfairly criticised by some people including some well known musicians who aren't fully familiar with its flaws and idiosyncracies. It isn't perfect by any means but when you use it sensibly i.e. by listening to the actual tunes in sessions and recordings and "tweaking" to suit etc, it can be a very useful tool.

As I recall, Michael Gill himself didn't rate the tune section at all... His advice was always to "Listen, listen, listen".   One classic comment was "The Tune Book is in your head and not some crazy cyber space nonsense.."
;-))

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:51 AM

“Is the opinion of Barbara Dickson on the quality of the instrumental playing, of any consequence?”
She is a very accomplished musician herself, both on guitar and piano, as well as being a stunning singer, so is very well qualified to express an opinion, having worked pretty consistently in both folk music and musical theatre for around 50 years. She has been given two Olivier Awards for her stage work, and an OBE for her contributions to music and drama.
She returned to live in Scotland in 2015, and has since gone back to her folk roots, with some fabulous concerts, but has just been doing a farewell tour prior to retiring. She has some equally talented musicians in her band.
There was a TV documentary about her in 2012, in which she is filmed singing with Archie Fisher accompanying her on guitar. Sandy Bell’s is mentioned in the discussion.
She was our headline guest at Linlithgow Folk Festival a few years back, and was both polite and charming, no big diva airs and graces. She kindly gave me one of her CDs for having looked after her merchandise table.
As Johnny Jay says, her remarks may have been taken out of context, and as meself says, she may just be “another old person grumbling about how things have changed”.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:04 AM

Well we've all heard bad musicians and singers in sessions over the years and I've been guilty of such misdemeanours myself on more than one occasion.

I've also passed opinion in private conversation too(sadly) but I've never gone as far to suggest that poor performers should just "shut up" or question whether or not it was appropriate for them to be singing or playing at all. Unfortunately, Barbara gave the impression that she was questioning the actual ethos of the "pub session" and this what bothered me.

Again, I'm not sure if that was really her intention as in the longer interview it came over more as just a passing comment. However, when reported in the press, it was presented as being much more negative.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:35 AM

There's a sad tendency here to find fault with people who've 'made it' in the commercial world. Barbara was always a fine musician & as good a piano accompanist as I ever had in thoose early days, quite apart from her singing.
Mind you, he always had an eye to a commercial future & well done to her success in that context.
   I remember one time in Fife, the Marsden Rattlers were support to her at the Elbow Room which was a folk club but with a stage. We did our bit & then she ran on stage. She'd made some arrangement with the organiser about her entry & after a lavish spoken intro, a spotlight highlighted her entry to huge applause- Barbara was a local hero after all!
Older mudcat folk may recall ITV's Sunday Night at the London Palladium & the closing 'tableau' in the 60s??   Well one of our band wryly observed...
          'that stage'll torn roond in a minute'

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 08:15 AM

As I recall, Michael Gill himself didn't rate the tune section at all... His advice was always to "Listen, listen, listen"
yes of course listening is important and yes the tune section has limitations,and is not to be taken as always 100 percent accurate

but not everything is as black and white, as in the world of michael gill
accurate tune sheet music can be useful for tunes that have been forgotten,
here is an example
I remember the fiddler Paddy Cronin saying that he used to go through
O Neills 1001 to bring tunes back into the general repertoire
Paddy Cronin had no problem occasionally using sheet music

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 11:31 AM

"always had an eye to a commercial future" ... as most who make a name for themselves in the music business do, of course - but it made me wonder if there was any (unintended) irony in her criticism of "attention-seeking behaviour" ... ?

Nothing against the woman, btw, just a comment on her comments.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 03:13 PM

Michael's take on sheet music was that it's a complete no-no for beginners/inexperienced players, but he was more flexible, though with many a caveat, when it came to accomplished musicians who already had hundreds of tunes. I agree with that. As Alan Ng stated on his Irish Tunes Info website, learn by ear and learn it right.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:47 PM

We’re thread drifting a bit here, but I will echo what one of our trad music tutors said, “There is no right or wrong way of learning - everyone has their own way of doing it”, and I would totally agree with that. Speaking for myself, I learned to read music at a very early age, so that was my modus operandi for learning new pieces, and later committing them to memory, and discarding the sheet music.
When I started going to mixed instrument classes, the method of learning was by ear, so I made myself do it, but still drawing heavily on all that music theory I had learned as a youngster, e.g, that note is a 4th/5th above the last one, or that run of notes is a scale. What you very rarely see in sheet music of trad tunes, as compared with classical scores, is any phrase marks, dynamics indicators, accents, pauses, ornamentation, etc. You can learn that or make up your own by listening to recordings, but not a good idea to copy them slavishly.
But I will never agree with anyone who says learning by ear is the ONLY way, especially now my hearing is seriously compromised. On the other hand, fully respect those who play brilliantly but have never learned to read music.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:40 PM

Recordings are set in stone, but the best ones have playing that uses lots of variation, ornamentation, etc., that you can both enjoy/be in awe of/learn a lot from, without (as you say) necessarily trying to copy slavishly. In recent weeks I've dropped Spotify, which I was paying for but not using much, in favour of an ad-free sub to YouTube. There's a lot of live/spontaneous performance on there, flaws and all, which, for me, beats the ultimate sterility of even really good recordings. But you really can't beat learning from active listening and learning from your mates in sessions. It may be slow, but it's the best way if you can ditch the urge to be impatient.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 09:01 PM

By the way, my hearing is also seriously compromised.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 04:36 AM

The best way to learn by ear is by selecting good players on you tube and listening carefully, and replaying for fine detail, but sheet music can also be useful.
as far as i am concerned understanding what I am doing harmonically is helpful, but whatever works for different people.
People like Michael Gill who are didactic about music learnibg are narrow minded, and people i try and avoid, from the description jack campin gave of him dissing sessions online , he sounds rather negative

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 05:50 AM

MaJoC's €0.02 (which probably belongs in a different thread):

One of the hazards of learning a song from a recording is that one tends to pick up the accent of the original singer. By all means, learn to sing it like the original, but then learn to sing it as yourself.

We now return you to the Subject line.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 05:55 AM

"One of the hazards of learning a song from a recording is that one tends to pick up the accent of the original singer. By all means, learn to sing it like the original, but then learn to sing it as yourself."

Same applies to tunes, of course. You will or should adapt it to your own style whether or not you learn it by ear or from the dots.

That's if you've got a good "style", of course. You may want to try and emulate a musician or singer or get ideas on how to improve yourself. One still shouldn't slavishly copy.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:00 AM

He had the gift of seeing through bullshit. That's a positive, not a negative. I had a large collection of tune books but I gave the whole lot away a quarter of a century ago. The notation of a traditional tune on a page is far less than bare bones. It's precisely what a beginner, or an experienced musician just starting out with traditional music, doesn't need. I don't know what Capt. O'Neill was thinking of!