the english and irish traditions

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:57 AM

When I first began to visit folk clubs in the early 1970s I shared the assumption that the English tradition was dead. There were a couple of survivals like the Coppers and Fred Jordan, but proper traditional singing had died out at the time of Cecil Sharp. "Folk music" meant folk revival music, and it is true to say that this has developed in a very different style from the original tradition (although the same can be said for many modern Irish groups).

As time went on I slowly discovered that the tradition had carried on and was alive, albeit only in a few places. I discovered there was a generation of singers who had only just passed away, who I never got to hear live but who had been recorded. More excitingly, there were singers and musicians who were still alive, and I was able to hear the likes of Walter Pardon, Bob Roberts, Percy Ling, Bob Cann and Oscar Woods, to name but a few. 40 years after I first became interested in folk, there are still authentically traditional English singers and musicians to be heard.

To say that the English tradition died out, or that the Northumbrian tradition was the only survival, is simply wrong. Yes, it was moribund, and it is true to say that the revival has often shown little continuity with the tradition, but English traditional music is still alive and is still there for those who wish to seek it out.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

Well, the facts from Reinhardt and additions from Dick seem to support my view.

I don't think they do Richard, Paul Burke summed it up well though. There's a difference between increasing popularity and raising from the dead. While traditional music in Ireland had reached a relative low point in both opportunities to play out and in popularity, it was well alive and today's music has an undeniable and unbroken link to past generations of musicians.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:37 AM

players like McGoldrick and Dezi Donnelly were English by birth (of Irish family) and their music developed in England- in Manchester to be precise.

But not in the English folk scene. Incubated in the Comhltas competition scramble, they developed through bands revolving round the Manchester Irish pub session scene.

That wouldn't make enough of an audience to form the basis of a career, surely? I was thinking of who paid to listen to them, which, until they went global, was surely English folkies more than anybody else?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jim Martin
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:45 AM

As far as I know, trad was always around in the NE/Dorset/Suffolk/Shrops.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

I doubt that anyone would dispute that the Irish tradition is in a stronger state than the English. That's a long way from saying the English tradition is dead.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:37 AM

i would dispute that the song tradition is any stronger,it is in my opinion about equal.
in fact in england there are more places for singers to perform in a concert or club like situation.
imo this is the better setting for a wider repetroire the songs are better can be performed.
pubs in ireland are better than pubs in england, people do listen more, but it can become wallpaper music,and just the popular end[wild river, kilgarry mountains, irish rover, nothing wrong with that
but this is why singers clubs are often like folk clubs in seperate rooms so that a wider repertoire can be sung, unfortunately these singers clubs are far fewer than english folk clubs.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:41 AM

the opportunity is there in Ireland, to have the music in a quieter setting because most of the pubs are private tenants with seperate rooms, but because most of the irish people are forced to emigrate , there are less people there to appreciate the music.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:55 AM

And the pubs here are dying like flies.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:20 AM

that is one reason why I have started a new maritime folk festival in Ballydehob and why i am involved in the Ballydehob jazz festival. Here is a link to the new festival.https://sites.google.com/site/thefastnetmaritimeandfolkfest/

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:21 AM

real irish people have to emigrate,Folkies searching for some utopian tradition move to Ireland. It's a funny old world. John

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:10 AM

"England has always been reasonably open to other people's folk music" Jack I don't know if yourself or anyone else experiences this. As you know we play in the Cobbles in Kelso every Friday (after the initial open mic) night and through the summer it is invariably full of tourists. I know it doesn't fit for everyone, and maybe some will criticise me for saying it, but I have noticed a trend of the typical English tourist sitting and lapping up the Scottish repetoire whilst on the other hand though they enjoy themselves equally it often doesn't take long for the Irish tourist to start asking for Irish songs. I don't know why there is this difference. Maybe the Irish just enjoy their own music more! I find it strange though. I couldn't envisage a group of us going to Ireland then starting to request lots of Scottish songs in a pub. I think we'd be more interested in what the locals have to offer.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM

Allan - that does fit with what I've noticed, but: the more musically knowledgeable Irish visitors do tend to be curious about Scottish music as well. An Irish tourist who can't carry a tune in a bucket will often ask for Raglan Road or the Fields of Athenry, particularly after their third pint, but one who's a competent flute player will usually want to hear some pipe marches.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:14 AM

Here's an idea: screw all the differences, opinions, facts, economic classes, revivals, histories, personalities, and traditions.

Do you like a song? Play it, listen to it. Do you dislike a song? Don't play it or listen to it. What possible difference does it make where or when the song is from, or who played it, or why? You all are heaping a tremendous amount of baggage onto songs and tunes, none of which are made better or worse -- or more proper or authentic -- thereby.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,PhilB
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:47 AM

Hear Hear

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:11 AM

What possible difference does it make where or when the song is from, or who played it, or why?

Meaning, understanding, and feeling, that's the difference it makes.

If you don't care about any of those, stick to what Sony wants to sell you.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

yes liking a song is a good reason for singing it, but knowledge about a songs background is important to me, although that is not the reason why i would choose to sing a song, the reason has to be because a song does something for you.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:53 PM

Do you like a song? Play it, listen to it. Do you dislike a song? Don't play it or listen to it. What possible difference does it make where or when the song is from, or who played it, or why? You all are heaping a tremendous amount of baggage onto songs and tunes, none of which are made better or worse -- or more proper or authentic -- thereby.

This sort of relativism is attractive; but has its limits. I am reminded of the time I met Ken Woollard, many years ago now when he was founder-organiser of the Cambridge Folk Festival, in the refreshment room at Cambridge Station. He took me up on something I had recently written in my monthly Folk Review column about the lack of real folk music at that festival. "People don't mind what music they listen to," he pompously asserted, "so long as it's good." So I asked him if we could please have a session next time where he would hire the London Bach Players to play all six Brandenburg Concertos. He looked at his watch, said he had a train to catch, and went away.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:12 PM

"but knowledge about a songs background is important to me"

.,,.

Sure, Dick. And knowledge of the source of a quote offered to form the basis of a discussion is important to all concerned likewise.

So stop mucking about, please ~~ and come clean as to the source of that original quote.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:33 PM

Michael, I do not need to, read through the posts including the abusive and irrelevant posts aimed at me and the crap and lies slandering me.
you will find the persons name is mentioned in this thread.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

You can't be slandered on an Internet forum, but you may be libelled.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:56 PM

Meaning, understanding, and feeling, that's the difference it makes.
Yes, these are very important. Do they change if the song is from Ireland or England? Do they change if the song old or new? If you want to talk about the differences and similarities between traditional music and contemporary music, I'll chat all day. Likewise, talking about the history and meaning of specific songs is fascinating and important. But this thread seems to be about which tradition is better or more valid or more alive or something. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the reality of making or understanding music. And anytime I see economic class being mixed in with discussions about music I get bothered. People of all classes who like folk music like folk music. People of all classes who don't like folk music don't like folk music. Seems obvious to me.

If you don't care about any of those, stick to what Sony wants to sell you.
Wow, where did that come from? It's a jump. Since I haven't bought any mainstream CDs in about 30 years, it's QUITE a jump!

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:52 PM

The source of the quote is mentioned in an earlier post. Here is the detail.
The big difference between English and Irish music is that the English tradition is a broken one. It was lost and then made up. It's sad. It's quite possible that English music could well have been as good as Irish music, and I'm certain that English music heavily influenced Irish music in a positive way. But it was lost and that's that. And I'd rather you cried about it than tried to revive it with hopelessly shallow middle class earnestness.
# Posted on March 16th 2012 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/29539

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 04:25 PM

I should probably know better than to get involved in an argument with history behind it of which I know nothing, but taken at face value, the statement: "The English tradition is a broken one. It was lost and then made up" doesn't need to be taken seriously. Others have mentioned the Coppers, Northumbria and Suffolk, but what about Jackie Beresford and Billy Pinnock in the Yorkshire Dales in recent memory, Mark Bazeley inheriting the mantle from Bob Cann (and deeply involved in an ongoing Devon tradition), Will Noble, Vic and Viv Legg, Oscar Woods, Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan, etc. etc. All those are of recent memory or still very much with us. Also the writer conflates 'revived' with 'made up', which doesn't display much respect for the language.

The Irish tradition has obviously been more vigorous than the English, but to suggest that it hasn't changed in terms of context, and hasn't been the subject of conscious acts preservation, renewal and revival would be to live in a fantasy world - if that is indeed what the author was seriously claiming. But it sounds more like Yah Boo to me.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 04:45 PM

You're right to doubt the sense in getting involved in this one, Brian. The motive of the original poster was ulterior. Mr Llig over on the Session is famed for saying very provocative things at times, abrasive even, and "Diplomacy" is not his middle name. But his provocations frequently bring about fertile discussion, as you'd see if you read that thread over there which contains his remark. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/29539 On the whole he is a pretty sound fellow (and a damn good fiddle player to boot, I hear). Yah Boo on this topic is wide of the mark, I think. If you do happen to read the thread it may or may not be useful to know that our Dick is The Kerryman over there (though that could change in a heartbeat), even though he's denied it once.

Remember The Tree Inn Folk Club, Brian? I won one of your vinyl albums in the raffle! :-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: stallion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:14 PM

Two hers ago i went to a family wedding in Kinsale, some of the family from somewhere west of kin sale can't remember were exactly were being patronised by the Dublin dwelling city folk who referred to them as bog hoppers, I thought it was wonderful but it was explained to me that by clinging on to that culture it was holding them back as being forward and dynamic country to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

Might have kept them out of parts of the current recession too.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:26 PM

Steve, my motive was to discuss the statement,on a forum that was moderated, and to take the statement and discuss it without prejudice, which was why I thought and still think that the poster should remain anonymous, by mentioning who the person is and that they are a renowned troll, immediately alters the perception of the person judging the staement.
please stop making assumptions about my motives, you have accused me of hating Michael,how can I hate someone I do not know,you on the other hand, by persisently suggesting I have an ulterior motive, and by constantly bringing in irrelevancies and stupid nonsense about the session, are only illustrating how puerile you are.
Steve, Brian happens to be a good friend of mine, whose house I have stayed in many times,our friendship goes back some 30 years.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:26 PM

All traditions tend to become mythologized. Rousseau is lurking about somewhere here.
It is helpful to understand as much as you can about a song, a style, a tradition of music
but it doesn't follow that the performance will be better because of this. In some cases,
when mimicry or imitation is done, it vitiates whatever the performer has to say. The voice becomes as a result phony and unnatural.

I reiterate that to force a national identity on a singing style or song ignores the particulars of region, personal character of the performer, and draws unnecessary lines that obscure rather than enlighten.

The big culprit here is over generalization about what is English or Irish or any other culture. Irish music must contain elements of English and Scottish music, and the reverse is true as well. Balkan and Spanish music has found its way into Irish music which is to say that there is no pure true Irish, English or Scottish music or any other national music.
Every musical form retains historical elements from other places and past times.

This also means that to understand the history and tradition of each musical form opens
a world of enjoyment and impact on the listener and the performer.

Visiting the St. Ann's College in Cape Breton, an official scholar informed me that
Scots were "some of the biggest mutts in the world".

I think this could expand to include almost anyone from any national heritage and it certainly true of musical styles.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:54 PM

Frank, thankyou for such an informative and intelligent post.
it is posts such as this that are singularly lacking on certain other forums where an unfortunate gang /bully mentality appears to exist the sort of pathetic mentality that is reminscent of s[eakers question time in the house of commons, of the yah boo and other Billy bunter puerile insults

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

There are some excellent posts in the thread I referred to, actually. Which is why, for the third time, I recommend a read-through of it to anyone interested in this topic.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:04 PM

And oddly, despite your claim that the Session is unmoderated, you would find that a post with the tone of your last one would rapidly vanish from there. You yourself have been moderated out of that forum a few times, eh, Dick? Is concertinadotnet not moderated either? Or does "moderated" simply mean "run Dick's way?"

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:36 PM

The Session.org is quite a bit more tightly moderated than Mudcat, as I found out when I posted a criticism of Frankie Gavin playing for George the Lesser in the White House.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:48 PM

It's differently moderated, I would say. You won't get away with sweary lingo for long and ad hominems will get you suspended. It can take a day or two to kick in. The atmosphere over there can be quite abrasive and there is always someone who will not suffer a fool gladly. It's OK though. None of it anywhere is ever going to change the world.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:48 AM

Whilst the premise of the original statement (that the English tradition is dead) is demonstrably wrong, I think it is true that the English folk revival is somewhat disconnected from the tradition. It is entirely possible to be fully involved and engaged with revival folk whilst completely ignoring the actual tradition, and I know many people who have no interest in listening to traditional singers and musicians (as well as a great many who do).

The Irish revival began as an attempt to reinvigorate a tradition which was in decline, and was motivated at least in part by cultural and political nationalism. The English folk revival of the 1950s and 60s was driven by a number of things, including the American folk revival, the American civil rights/anti-Vietnam protest song, blues as well as traditional folk from all over the British Isles and elsewhere. It was only as time went on that it became more narrowly focussed on British and specifically English music, but even then it was mainly derived from collections or circulated between revival musicians, rather than living or recorded source musicians.

As a result a style of interpretation and accompaniment developed which had only passing reference, if any, to the tradition. I had been involved in folk music for some years before I realised that authentic traditional music hadn't died out at the time of Cecil Sharp.

I don't think this is entirely a bad thing. It does mean that English musicians are far less constrained by "the tradition" and feel able to take from it and adapt it as they see fit. This results in much greater diversity.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:45 AM

An interesting demonstration of the difference between "folk" and "traditional" Howard, for which I thank you.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:08 AM

"his provocations frequently bring about fertile discussion, as you'd see if you read that thread over there which contains his remark. Yah Boo on this topic is wide of the mark, I think."

I read it. Some informed comment, some prejudiced nonsense, some bizarre digressions (orang-utans? TV remotes?). A bit like here, in fact. Devil's Advocacy notwithstanding, I still find the quoted remarks boneheaded and deliberately offensive. I've shared my (English) music with some pretty good Irish musicians in my time, and most of them were simply enthused by the tunes, rather than sneering about middle class revivals.

"Remember The Tree Inn Folk Club, Brian? I won one of your vinyl albums in the raffle! :-)"

Congratulations, Steve! At least you chose the album, rather than the packet of biscuits (that did happen to me once). The Tree Inn...? Must have been a while ago... Bude or somewhere like that?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:43 AM

Yep, must have been early 90s-ish, with the estimable John Maughan looking after you! :-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:47 AM

Ireland had the same disconnect between traditional and revival singing. There had never been a tradition of macho celeb showoffs doing a narrow repertoire of stereotyped rebel and drinking songs until the Clancys and the Dubliners came along, and the real traditional repertoire of Irish song (in either English or Irish) is not a lot more widely performed than pre-revival English song.

The same things happened on each side of the Irish Sea, with performers whose main interest was local traditional music and those whose main focus was mass-marketed American popular culture both labelling themselves as "folk". Ireland had a more active and diverse culture of instrumental dance music but that was about the only real difference.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM

Steve, the pot calling the kettle black, you have been suspended or is it banned from at least one music forum, you persistently read motives in to my posts you consistently accuse me of hating someone I have never met, you consistently bring in matters relating to other forums,   
why do you do this? if you were purely interested in discussing this thread, you would not bring in this irrelevant trivia, why can you not discuss the subject without continuously indulging in personal attacks.
Steve, this forum is a moderated forum,please do not insult the moderators by suggesting as you did, quote
"Or does "moderated" simply mean "run Dick's way?"

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:32 AM

Wottevah! :-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:21 AM

JC: Contrariwise, can you think of even one English musician who's managed to make a career of playing English music in Ireland?

Shane McGowan? :-)

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:45 AM

I've shared my (English) music with some pretty good Irish musicians in my time, and most of them were simply enthused by the tunes, rather than sneering about middle class revivals."
Exactly Brian, furthermore I have shared mine with old traditional musicians, one of whom Jamesie Kingston with whom I gigged and busked many times, had english as well as Irish tunes in his repertoire, such as the bourton six.
what Steve cant seem to take in is that because i dislike some of a particular persons posts, that I dislike the person who posted the comments.
I do not.I cannot dislike someone I do not know.
I do dislike trolling flaming and bringing in irrelevant smears from other forums, I dislike boneheaded offensive ill thought out comments that are aimed at damaging a particular traditional music.
I am in favour of any kind of musical creativity.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:52 AM

Wottevah!

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:55 AM

I don't think this is entirely a bad thing. It does mean that English musicians are far less constrained by "the tradition" and feel able to take from it and adapt it as they see fit. This results in much greater diversity.
absolutely, whereas Comhaltas are attempting to enforce constraints upon the Irish Tradition, they are doing this by encouraging competitors to play in one particular style, to win a competition, this attitude is not so prevalent at county level but kicks in at regional level,
it can mean that on occasions competitors even play in a particular style to impress a particular judge, how ridiculous.
comhaltas even enforces rules about no harmony playing in certain competitions.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Morris-ey
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:38 PM

No one is compelled to enter competitions...

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:16 PM

correct, but neverthless they do,and many people are also encouraged to play in a certain way through the comhaltas examination system, now that is ok, if w the players then go on to develop their own style, and it is good in the sense that people are being encouraged to be creative, but unfortunately the influence of comhaltas,encourages people to play in the same style to win competitions.
   but it is not just the fault of Comhaltas, let us take concertina playing and the IRISH TRADITION, years ago people played whatever system of concertina they could lay their hands on,and there was much more variety in the playing, now ALL the teachers of irish music in ireland encourage the anglo, and there are very few[maybe 3OR 4 different approved styles]based upon Noel Hill, Mary Mac and Chris Droney, It was not always thus, back in the enlightened times there was even an all Ireland champion who played the English.
Where are the duets players in the irish concertina tradition, the duet[imo] is not unsuitable for irish tunes.
so we have a situation in irish traditional music, where only certain approved ornamentation is used,Furthermore players are told to get an Anglo to PARAPHRASE MandyRiceDavies "they would say that wouldnt they" Because they teach it
this can result in the tradition stultifying, and not progressing.
The Anglo is a good instrument for Irish music, but it has one drawback it is limited, because the phrasing is imposed upon the player by bellows direction, initially, the frequent bellows reversal seems like an advantage because it is inherently more rthymic, but it is limited because it cannot copy a fiddlers bowing.
The Unisonic concertinas are better for airs, But have the opposite problem to the anglo.
in English Northumbrian Music The unisonic Concertina use finger attack to produce staccato notes similiar to the northumbrian pipes, but this disapproved of by SOME of the irish anglo teachers as not authentic, there lies the problem so many players of irish trad music are so much up their own backsides[example, a few of the posters on www.session.org], they cannot see that they are preventing the music from changing ,or even occasionally they are so back ward looking they dont want to change it, the big joke is that Comhaltas with all their concerns about presrving the music have inadvertenly changed it through their stupid marking system in competitions

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:27 PM

Who was the "All-Ireland" champion who played the English concertina, what year was it, and what age group was he / she in ? Asking solely out of curiousity. And thinking about it, if he / she won once, that would make it about 1 out of 57.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:12 PM

Madeline o Dowd.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:28 PM

She's not listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Fleadh_Champions#Concertina_.28Consairt.C3.ADn.29

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:37 PM

I've read that Ewan MacColl at his folk club enforced a policy that no one could sing a song in a language they didn't actually speak. Apparently this caused some controversy. There might be something to that, though. When songs are sung in English by people who obviously have no fluency in the language, they tend to sound obviously stilted.

Can a fluent speaker of Irish or Scots Gaelic usually tell when someone is faking the language (i.e. singing from a syllable representation of the lyrics)in a song?

Jon Corelis
Celtic suite in G major