BS: Film: The Wind That Shakes The Barley

Subject: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:33 AM

Just been revued at Cannes the new Ken Loach film, ' The Wind That Shakes The Barley 'it won't be popular in England, it's about the IRA and the true nature and actions of the Black and Tans.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:41 AM

No problem.
We are always prtrayed as the villains when Hollywood rewrites history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 06 - 08:48 AM

Ken Loach is a British film director, get it ! remember ' Kes. '

Fuck all to do with Hollywood.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 May 06 - 09:03 AM

Many of the Black and Tans were recruited straight from prison, where it was a way of getting out of jail early for them. They were the scum of the earth most of them, and were just the sort of person required by the then British government to do their dirty work.
It must be noted however that while they apparently enjoyed it, they were only carrying out orders.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 06 - 09:07 AM

By and large the B&T's weren't nice folks. Neither was the Gestapo or the Kempei Tei or the Operchina or the Stasi or any number of similar organizations.

But every nation seems to have had such an organization at one time or another.

History is what is happened. And if we don't learn from history we'll have no future.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 May 06 - 11:37 AM

And if we don't learn from history we'll have no future.

Very true and if we don't learn from history we will find that the past will be re-written.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Alba
Date: 22 May 06 - 11:57 AM

"No problem.
We are always prtrayed as the villains when Hollywood rewrites history."

That statement really urks me.
Maybe the author of the statement would like to give others some idea of the goodness the Black and Tans did and the pride that England has for them?

Now THAT would be rewriting History imo.

Sound like an interesting film Eric.
Ken Loach is a fine Director.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 May 06 - 12:40 PM

Alba, It's the typical remark you would expect from him, waste of time expecting anything worth reading, to make a remark such as,

We are always protrayed as the villains when Hollywood rewrites history ?

Why were the Tans or the Auxiliaries, ex alter boys ?

Sorry this is not re writing history, it shows the bastards for what they were.

No doubt you thought they were jolly good lads over to teach us lot a lesson ? Sorry, they left and we stayed.

Come on tell the good deeds the Tans or Auxiliaries did ?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 06 - 12:42 PM

I know what Keith means, and you should too.

Ken Loach gives the low down on what a bunch of bastards the the Black and Tans were.

It's a bit formulaic, like all these gits in the folk clubs who keep writing about the first world war, as though its some great revelation. Eric Bogle did it nearly thirty years ago, and you get a feeling, we've this one again and again and again and again.

Maybe they can use some of the footage from Titanic of the jolly Oirish before the beastly Brits barge in.

Loach used to be better on contemporary stuff - kes was contemporary once, and raining stones.

The one about the spanish Civil war dragged.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Alba
Date: 22 May 06 - 01:12 PM

Sorry Al. I have to disagree with ye.
Keith's remarks are based on a mind set that he makes no attempt to disguise here.

The Ken Loach Film 'My name is Joe' is a film close to my heart.
It is a hard film.
Some stories will have to be told more than once over the Years.
Some History can't be forgotten because without examining it we cannot see where we have come from.

Just as aside I asked a young fella who had asked me for a particular Song at gig, not all that long ago, if he knew who the Black and Tans were....he had no clue.

Hollywood didn't supply the money for this production and while I would like to believe that the poster of the sentence I remarked on was not coming from his usual stance, I have to say that some unsavory facts about one's Country's History are best accepted and acknowledged because that way we learn how to never repeat those mistakes again and possibly, just possibly may even find a way out of a cicle of Hate.

Again Ill say,
Thank you for the info Eric.
Ken Loach is, imo, a fine Director. I look forward to seeing the Film.
I will be sure to let ye all know what I thought of it when I do.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 May 06 - 01:27 PM

a Cider and Guiness can do pretty nasty things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 May 06 - 01:50 PM

Brought to Ireland by Winston Churchill. Maybe Churchill wanting to shoot the striking miners in Britain would make a good film ??

The Tans have a drunken history whilst in Ireland besides a murderous one. You should read their service records which are now available through the military records office. Not one was charged with the murder of an Irish man. I lived through the period of their predecessors.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:35 PM

Interesting about the records office, Divis - Can you send me details either through here or a PM?

My Mother reckoned her Dad was a Tan - Which I find hard to believe to be honest. He was wounded twice in WW1 and barely fit to do a days work at times let alone be part of that crew. Besides which he was always a decent law abiding chap - French galantry medal for rescuing a young girl from a well while on active service in France. On top of all that his his maternal grandfather was from Gallway! Name of Hart if that means anything to anyone?

Perhaps if the records are now available we can complete the picture. We have his military service record from 1914 to 1919 but nothing after.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:37 PM

BTW - What caught my eye about the thread is that I sing "the wind that shakes the barley" and thought it may have been a thread about that - Funny old co-incidence init!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:53 PM

Presumably there were some nice Tans as well as the thugs, much like other armies. Occupying colonial forces never get a very good press from history, though, do they? Thoughtful novels about decent Tans doing social work among the poor Irish dont tend to get written, do they? As always, alas, the atrocities of the Tans pale into insignficance when the Civil War started. The course of events after the French revolution and the Russian revolution were followed closely. The overthrow (moderately violent) of a repressive government, followed by a seriously horrifying brother against brother situation after. I look forward to seeing this film, though a balanced historical view is not what we get from Ken Loach. He comes from the redhaired frecklefaced colleen school of stereotypes, which makes a good story of course.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 May 06 - 03:08 PM

Dear Dave
Hope all's well with you. If you go to /www.nationalarchives.gov.uk or go to The Imperial War museum, they will supply you a list of researchers who will do the search for you for around a fiver. www.iwm.org.uk
Give the researcher as much information as you can, such as full name, regiment if known, number if known and place of birth. A lot of the World War One records were destroyed during the Blitz, but you may be surprised what these guys can turn up.

I got a guy to do mine, he was a student who like many advertised and this gave him an income, sorry can't remember his name now.

Good luck with it.

They came to Ireland in March 1920. All were ex soldiers, mostly Scottish. The Welsh came home to the mines, the English to ship building and the mills. Unemployment was the highest in Scotland, and records show so was alcoholism. The records I got sent over was for a soldier who's WW1 medal trio I had and with it was his service records whilst serving in the force. I was unaware he was a Tan. The records recorded he faced several charges for drunkeness whilst on duty and two for fighting with other men on his patrol, there mustn't have been any Irish about that night !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 May 06 - 03:11 PM

Can't recall any stories about the Tans doing any social work Greg. Know they did some dental and orthopedic work though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 06 - 04:06 PM

ae fond kiss.....now there is a very good film by the great Ken Loach who is a member of Respect the left wing anti war party.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 06 - 04:15 PM

Come to think of it, theres not a lot of credit given to the Deaths Head Flower Arranging Squadron of the SS. the floral arrangements at the Nuremberg Rally were something else.

I had a weird experience at the weekend. I was doing this gig at Belvoir Castle Folk Weekend in Rutland, and I found myself in a room I hadn't been in for nearly 50 years. I used to be taken there as a day out with my cousin Bernard as a day out. And we loved this room - all one side of it beautifully maintained rows of muskets. The other wall had swords of all kinds - arranged in circles - sabres, claymoors, daggers.

I think me and Bernard hoped one day the Duke of Rutland would pass by and fix us up with a spare couple of flintlock pistols and a dagger each.

Anyway, usual sort of festival scene - a gang of morris dancers waiting to go on, some bloke at the other end hoping to move us to tears with the Fields of Athenry.

Out of interest, I asked the curator lady, what is the provenance of all these arms - what are they doing in an 19th century ornamental castle in the middle of the quitest shire in England - surely never a shot has been fired round here except at the grouse.

Oh the Duke of Rutland, she told me, he raised a regiment in Napoleonic times to fight in Ireland........these are the guns they used.

Suddenly it occurred to me, my family and Bernards would have been the sharp of those bayonets and cutlasses - that we so lusted after as little boys.

low lie the Fields of athenry....right mate!

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:41 PM

The Black and Tans And the Auxilaries

In case our overseas members have not heard of this brave British force here is a short account of them.

The British government, hired former World War I soldiers residing in Britain to 'police' Ireland. This new force arrived in 1920. Because of the shortage of uniforms, the new police were given a mix of army khaki and RIC dark green, and so they became known to the public as the 'Black and Tans'.

Later, ex-army officers were recruited into another force known as the Auxilaries. The new forces were exceptionally ruthless in their methods. The Black and Tans reacted to any IRA attack by terrorising ordinary people, usually women and children.

A strict curfew was enforced and if they suspected someone of being an IRA member they were often executed on capture.

Houses, shops and creameries were burned and ordinary people were taken hostage or beaten. These 'policemen' often used local people, priests and young girls, as human shields as they patrolled the countryside in convoys of trucks. This terror, intended to undermine support for the IRA, had the opposite effect.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:54 PM

I sat me in the valley green I sat me with me true love.
And sad my thoughts were torn between the old love and the new love.
The old was her the new hat made me think of Ireland dearly,
And sad the wind blew down the glen and shook the golden barley.

Fabulous tune - probably my favourite of all time.

Is what I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 May 06 - 08:03 PM

I sat within the valley green, I sat me with my true love
My sad heart strove the two between, the old love and the new love
The old for her, the new that made me think on Ireland dearly
While soft the wind blew down the glen and shook the golden barley

'Twas hard the woeful words to frame to break the ties that bound us
But harder still to bear the shame of foreign chains around us
And so I said, "The mountain glen I'll seek at morning early
And join the bold united men, while soft winds shake the barley"

While sad I kissed away her tears, my fond arms round her flinging
The foeman's shot burst on our ears from out the wildwood ringing
A bullet pierced my true love's side in life's young spring so early
And on my breast in blood she died while soft winds shook the barley

But blood for blood without remorse I've taken at Oulart Hollow
And laid my true love's clay cold corpse where I full soon may follow
As round her grave I wander drear, noon, night and morning early
With breaking heart when e'er I hear the wind that shakes the barley

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 May 06 - 05:38 AM

Robert Dwyer Joyce methinks, a fine song which Ken Loach must have had in mind.

Ken Loach is never afraid to be controversial, if telling the truth can be called controversial, I can acknowledge the truth of the Black and Tans.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:26 AM

I do not defend or justify the atrocities committed by the Black And Tans.
I agree with the likes of Divis Sweeney on that.
Unlike him I also abhor the atrocities committed by the various paramilitary groups.
Now a film that focused on the bestial activities of say, the IRA would be controversial, but who would make it?
The Black And Tans were stood down long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:57 AM

No, Keith. It was the gerrymandered partition of Ireland in 1922 that created the IRA. It also created backward Catholic Ireland that they are only just beginning to get over, the Orange order as the respectable face of terrorism, and the excisemen of either side who tax the drug dealers of their respective areas- they needed to raise money, just as the State raises it by the tax on alcohol. So a long time ago is still going on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 06 - 07:33 AM

Keith the Brits have a problem learning from history, the soldiers they sent here from the early 1970s were the scum of the earth.
It has now been proven that the British government colluded with the Protestant paramilitaries,they armed them and sent them out to kill Catholics irespective of them being involved with the IRA.

Do yourself a favour Keith and take your friends along to see this film, and it could be, that all of you can learn from history and not to continue making the same mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 08:39 AM

They were just the army Ard
The same army that stood against the fascist junta forces in the Falklands, and with US and Nato stood against the Warsaw Pact armies of 60s 70s and 80s
Some were scum and some were saints.

The revulsion at the Black and Tans in the 20s did not stop decent Irishmen flocking to England and the North in their tens of thousands to fight for Britain against the Nazis, even though the IRA openly sisded with them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 06 - 08:42 AM

I strongly sympathise with what you are saying, ard mhacha, but calling the soldiers scum of the earth does not help your cause at all. I am sure some of them were. I am sure some of them were positively angelic by comparison. I am equaly sure that the vast majority, like the vast majority of people everywhere, lay somewhere in between. Blame the government by all means. Blame the situation. Blame me if you like. But calling the ordinary squaddie the scum of the earth does not help anyone.

Kipling put it far better than me.

It's Tommy this and Tommy that and Tommy go away,
But it's "Thank you Mr Atkins" when the band begins to play..."

BTW (for a second time) - The song I sing of this title is a different one to the onle detailed above.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 08:44 AM

Ray Bennet, Cannes Hollywood reporter said in his revue...

The British in the film are nameless cardboard villains used mainly to establish just how horribly occupying forces behave. It's such a common device to make audiences root for the rebels that Loach and screenwriter Paul Laverty might have been cleverer about it. But it works,

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:00 AM

So the only Irishmen worth a toss are those that fought for Britian in the war the English started and the Americans ended.

Regarding this line, Irishmen flocking to England and the North in their tens of thousands to fight for Britain.

Check those figures again and re write it. I have the figures, seeing you are so sure of them I will allow you to list them.

Regarding the British army here in the North of Ireland during the troubles, they certainly left a lastly mark on me. Scars.

The bottom line is no matter how you wish to dress it up, Britain invaded Ireland and beat her people into the ground for eight hundred years. Are you defending that ????????????????????????

No you clearly attack those Irishmen that fought to protect and defend their homes and called us criminals for doing so.

Tell me what you would have done ????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:18 AM

http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/war.htm

An estimated 70,000 volunteers from neutral Irish Republic served with British forces in WW2

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:34 AM

Regarding the British army here in the North of Ireland during the troubles, they certainly left a lastly mark on me. Scars.

I know it's only words, Divis, and I would be the last to play semantics - Honest! But saying that the British Army left it's scars on you does not do either you or the Britsh Army justice.

That some evil bastards in the British Army kicked the crap out of you - Yes. That someone higher up the chain not only ignored that act but actively condoned it - Yes. But to tar them all with the same brush is a bit like the way the local yobs consider that all policemen are bastards!

I am not sure quite how to put what I mean but if you have to blame anyone blame the politico's. The soldiers, like the local plods, were just doing a job. That they played dirty at times is not in doubt but in war, which this was considered to be by both sides, shit happens. The difference between the squaddie putting the boot in and the provo setting the timer is a question of justification.

That your side was more justified than the soldiers is a different argument altogether. That the soldiers justification had official sanction is much more a reflection on his bosses than on himself.

I think!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:36 AM

And another 50,000 from the North.

Yes England started the war against Hitler.
I think that was the right thing to do, as did those tens of thousands of Irish men.

The IRA sided with Hitler's Nazis.
I think that was shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:04 AM

If you care to read that report by Geoff Rodgers, which isn't credible by the standards of most historians, you will see he uses the term, if at all accurate. Yes he's questioning it too !

Waiting on an answer as to what you would have done if another country invaded your land, or did you not see the question ???

Dave The British invaded Ireland, we did not invite them. They came to Command & Conquer. What should we have done, roll over and lay down ?

Sorry that isn't in me. Not that kind of guy.

Keith calls me a terrorist because I would not accept those he admires greatly, coming over to terrorize me and my people. Give me a break.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:14 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency

I did read it and I would not say he was questioning it.

This Wikipedia piece puts it at 43,000.

What are the figures you say you have?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:27 AM

What should we have done, roll over and lay down ?

Sorry that isn't in me. Not that kind of guy.

Divis, I wouldn't like you any other way:-) Me neither. Probably why I can't help myself when I see what I view as inaccurate statements;-)

I am not disputing anything you have said at all - Just taking ard mhacha to task about the use of the term 'scum of the earth' to generalise about the army. I don't think they are but accept that some people see them as such. Just as I accept that some people will always see that 'All coppers are bastards'.

I don't think it does anyones cause, or the flow of the argument, any good to generalise or resort to simple name calling. It just invites similar from the other side. And you have already felt what an escalation of bad feeling can end up like:-(

Would ard's message not have been more effective if it contained exactly the same words without the 'scum of the earth' statement? Don't you think that was just a knee-jerk gining the opposition carte blanche to respond in kind?

Just my views and not much to do with the argument in question realy. But, like yourself, when I see something I believe to be wrong I am not a roll over and die type of guy!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:27 AM

Divis Sweeney anger is true and admirable. His history, though, is something else. He generally simplifies things down to "the British(or sometimes "the English") invaded us 800 years ago". But he did actually point out a rather crucial fact a way back, that the B@T atrocities were largely committed by digruntled Scottish ex-squaddies. He would do well to remember that the Irish invaded Scotland(and were never expelled by the locals) 1500 years ago. They took over the majority(but by no means the whole of the country(you can track this quite easily by looking at the areas where the place names are Gaelic/Irish). Till quite recently, the lowland Scottish referred to the Highlanders and Islanders, and their language, as "Irish"...they had a long memory, this description was pretty accurate. Ths division was made much worse from the 17th century civil wars on, when there was a rough division in Scotland into Catholics(the Gaels) and Protestants(largely Lowland). This is a crude description of course, there were anomalies. For example,the Campbells(Gaels /Irish from Argyll) went Protestant and allied with the Edinburgh protestant government against the minority Catholic Jacobites, but by and large the Catholic/Protestant or Irish/Scots split remained.
    These bits of history, as well as the Anglo-Norman direct invasion of ireland, need to be considered seriously when people attempt to solve current problems. The English have short memories. The Irish and Scots have long memories. This has consequences now. I am neither one of the three, i try to take a more detached view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 May 06 - 11:43 AM

Okay Keith large numbers of decent Irishmen fought for King and Country. My fathers two brothers were decorated pilots in that war, both so called Irishmen. Both not worthly of that title. I did not acknowledge them in life for it, and I have no wish to do so in death. Two embarrassments.

Your right again greg, we are the real bastards in all of this.
Should look into our history more.

Understood and accepted Dave.

Black and Tans did a great job on us.
British army 1969- only doing a job.
British government policy in Ireland, very fair.

Right any other Irish misdemeanors we have missed here that you require an apology for ???????????????????

Teribus hasn't arrived yet and joined your little group, but to preempt it, sorry to him too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 11:54 AM

See the anti Irish have arrived again !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 06 - 11:59 AM

and the anonymous shit stirrers...

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 06 - 01:49 PM

The British Army that invaded our towns and villages were the scum of the earth,the dregs of the gutter, I have encountered these uniformed football thugs.
I only wish the boot was on the other foot and a squad of uniformed paddies had some of our brave Brits spreadeagled against a wall while having great amusement in digging their rifle butts in to your ribs, a taste of this treatment wouldn`t endear you to the invading army.
Also this was minor in relation to the arming and collusion with the UDA UVF and other Protestant paramilitaries,who went about their murdering business at will, safe in the knowledge that their Brit masters would turn a blind eye.

One of the Brit hired murderers was released from jail to-day after serving 3 years for the murder of Belfast Soliciter Pat Finucane, collusion with Protestant paramilitaries will come back to haunt you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:09 PM

That killer was given 20 years.
Like other killers he was released early under the terms
of the Good Friday agreement.
I don't like it either, but it was the price of peace.






















l













































l

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Boston Boy
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:20 PM

Where the other killers armed and in collusion with the British too ?
Would like to hear more viewpoints on this collusion business.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:23 PM

I think that most were PIRA, but it applied to all paramilitaries.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:41 PM

I wonder if anyone has ever actually changed an opinion or a position, after one of these heated exchanges.

At some point the positions will have to change if we are to progress to a period of peace and friendship, between our nations.

For the sake of Englishmen and Irishmen as yet unborn, we should get to it. And stop worrying about the Black and Tans.....

we have a democracy. theoretically we can make our rulers DO WHat WE LIKE.

I've heard both sides call each other scum, theres nothing new or interesting in that. If you want us to change English policy -try explaining what you want us to do that will make things better. Preferably without calling any of us scum.

Personally I'm a bit pissed off with the wind that shakes the barley and cools nobody's porridge even.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:17 PM

In Ireland's decades-long conflict against oppression and occupation by the British government, much controversy has arisen from the fact that British authorities have conspired with loyalist and Protestant paramilitaries to kill Nationalist and Catholic civilians.

Although collusion was at first denied, evidence before the courts proved its existence.

Many investigations into cases of collusion are at this time underway; many more will reach the public in the very near future.

Welcome to a world of spies and a corrupt British army and Ulster police force. Government crimes against civilians, of conspiracy, murder and more.

This is what Keith finds acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 06 - 04:31 PM

There's this wonderful piece of schtick Lenny Bruce used to do, something like:-

I'm from New York. Let me tell ya, corruptions no big deal. In New York, we grow up with it. Everybody's corrupt. the cops are corrupt, the politicians, the newspapers...... When i was a kid, I figured I was probably corrupt as well.

what Im trying to say is, let's take it as a given, everybody is corrupt

I believe the catholics have a phrase for it, they call it original sin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,the real me
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:30 PM

"My fathers two brothers were decorated pilots in that war, both so called Irishmen. Both not worthly of that title. I did not acknowledge them in life for it, and I have no wish to do so in death. Two embarrassments."

Thanks for this - it clarifies my view of Irish republicanism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 11:29 PM

Gratitude indeed for the clarity that can be attained when a person reads a statement that does not contain hypocrisy but honesty. The person is rewarded by being offered an insight to the depth of feeling and truth behind the words. An expression of Thanks is the least that should be given in return.
Then again, sadly, some people may have selective reading skills due to a mind that is closed and as a result will lack the capacity for empathy, education or understanding.
A mind that is closed and quick to judge deserves to be fed pity rather than truth.

Bíonn dhá insint ar scéal agus dhá leagan déag ar amhrán!

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:16 AM

Either way people think what they think, it's only different ways of coping with reality. And everyone's entitled to their thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:01 AM

Ken Barrett, Britian`s hired murderer was whisked off from prison to a secret hideaway in England were he can live out the rest of his life on his generous allowance for doing Britain`s dirty work.
But he would be wise to watch his back, now that he is of no further use to his former employers, they won`t hesitate to do to him what he did to innocent Catholics.

This is only one episode in the vast array of dirty deeds committed by loyalist gangs at the behest of the British government.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:09 AM

I do learn quite a lot, WLD, and have on one topic changed my stance. I used to be of the opinion that the publication of some Irish rebel songs was quite insulting and hurtful to the British peoples in general and not appropriate when attrocities were still happening on both sides of the fence. I have, though discourse and listening to some of the good representatives of the Nationalist cause, tempered that view.

Although some of the songs do refer to cowardly Brits and bastard Brits and so on they are only reflecting a strong feeling and are a good record of what went on at the time. Moreover, having visited Ireland and listened to these songs on their own ground, so to speak, I now know there is nothiong personal in it. They are the songs of people fighting against oppresion and in war feelings do run high.

Like ard mhachas feelings that the British Army are the scum of the earth, which brought me here in the first place. I can understand that feeling but, though a flaw in my own personality, I feel obliged to point out that I do not believe that to be true. No more than I believe a gun or a knife is inherantly evil. It is the wielder of the tool that is at fault. Not the tool itself. The army is a tool of the government. A good army and good soldiers do whatever their masters tell them. These soldiers did what they were told so rather than being the scum of the earth I feel they were particulary good soldiers. If there is evidence that some of these were working outside their brief then fair enough, they were indeed bad soldiers. I am sure that every barrel has one or two bad apples but I still that that the bald statement about the 'Army' being scum needs lots of qualification!

I don't think I have any more to add to this thread, apart from to say I am looking forward to seeing the film. And, to Divis, I will keep you posted as to my progress with my Grandads post military record. Thanks again.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:13 AM

At least the guy above has shown he has principles, disregarding that these were family members or not. I admire honesty and despise hypocrisy. Sadly something most of the other posters suffer from.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 06 - 09:38 AM

I would add that soldiers always make bad policemen.
At least they have gone now that PIRA has announced an end of hostilities.
If only that had happened 25 years ago.

As for Sweeney's honest declaration, I have tried not to be quick to judge, Guest, and to have an open mind, but it is hard to understand how he can be ashamed of his war hero uncles, because they fought against Hitler.

Especially as we now have the benefit of hindsight and history to show us how evil his regime was and what it planned for us.

Should they have gone to be concentration camp guards?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 06 - 11:52 AM

A few bad apples my ass, the soldiers that your government sent over here were the dregs, otherwise if they weren`t, then your country is in serious trouble, and further proof is shown almost daily on TV of the young drunken rabble that inhabit your streets.

If any of you would Google, John McGuffin and read his two books , The Guinea Pigs and Iternnment you will get an education on how your soldiers behaved on the streets of the north of Ireland.

This is an abject lesson on learning from history, although sadly the British government have never learned.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:14 PM

in what way are we hypocrites. most people are exactly saying what we mean. if you don't like our company, sod off somewhere where you like it better..

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:23 PM

We have also been accused of being anti Irish.
I challenge and defy you to show hypocrisy or anti Irishness in any post so far.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:45 PM

oh come on Keith - everybody's anti Irsh now and then. We're talking about the country that gave us Ian Paisley, Daniel O'Donnel, Terry bloody wogan, those bagpipe things that nobody in England can play - or perhaps they and they really sound like that, ballykissangel.......

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:49 PM

OK - I admit it. The English are a set of drunken louts who live only to drink and fight. Our army is the worst in the world and every single man jack of us is anti-Irish. I can't wait to leave this hole of depravity behind and settle in a good civilised country that has no criminal element, no drug dealing, no violence and no drunkeness. Can you send me your address, ard, and meet me at the nearest airport this time tomorrow.

I'm out of here.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:09 PM

Keith your hang up with the Irish on this site is legendary, at least admit it man.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:41 PM

and as for those nauseating gits dancing round below decks on the Titanic with Leonardo de Caprio......I almost felt sorry for the iceberg having to bump into them....

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:36 PM

No Guest.
My only hang up is with the paramilitaries.
Search my posts as far back as you like you will find NO anti irish sentiments expressed EVER.
Happy hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:42 PM

really you could start a whole new thread...nauseating Irish stereotypes in cinema history from The Quiet Man to Gangs of New York....

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:53 PM

Drummer boy and the rest of the class of no-nothings, when will the penny finally drop that slobbering on about your brave boys here without the slighest knowledge of what went on over the past 30 years.
Did any of you care to dip in the waters and read John McGuffin`s books, are you frightened of learning the truth?.
I see you have just won the European bobby prize for having the worst record of street violence, that beats football, although we still have the World Cup to come, as usual you will again show the world your bloated beer bellied thugs, what a country, hated throughout Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:55 PM

ard mhacha. Just Googled John McGuffin, wow ! Can see why these guys are so defensive.
Internment camps, before that concentration camps in which Britain killed 27 000 Boer women and children(24000) during the Second War of Independence (1899 - 1902) today still have far-reaching effects on the existence of the Boerevolk.

Keith, paramilitaries or freedom fighters ?   Read what ard mhacha told you to. Your blind and so narrow minded and one of the worst bigots I ever met, seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:06 PM

These guys are all high !
                
England cannabis capital of Europe
40% of teenagers and 9% of adults have smoked cannabis
40% of teenagers and 9% of adults have smoked cannabis
More cannabis is smoked in England and Wales by both adults and teenagers than in any other country in the European Union.

The use of ecstasy, amphetamines and LSD in England and Wales is also higher than anywhere else in the EU.

Europe's drug monitoring agency also says teenage schoolchildren in England and Wales have the worse drugs record.


Across all age groups more people were found to have used cannabis in England and Wales in the last 12 months than in any other country.

The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction agency, based in Lisbon, has more damning statistics for England and Wales.

More school children have abused solvents than in any other EU country.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:09 PM

Could this be true ?

England has worst crime rate in world
By David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent Telegraph


England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world's leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:15 PM

European governing body Uefa has threatened to ban English teams from Europe if there is anymore crowd trouble.

Home Office figures released in April showed a 19% rise in football-related offences in the past season.

In a period marred by violence since England's Euro 2004 qualifier match with Turkey, 4,793 people have been arrested compared with 4,035 the year before, the Home Office said.

Nearly half of arrests at international games.

Roll on the World Cup !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:18 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:41 AM

No problem.
We are always prtrayed as the villains when Hollywood rewrites history.

Rewrites history ? Yeah this guy really speaks the truth !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 06 - 06:29 PM

Still not sent me your address, ard. I'm waiting to book a flight! Or do you hate me too much?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 06 - 06:34 PM

Guest,
I think it is time for your medication.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Alba
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:25 PM

This Thread is one of the saddest I have read on the Mudcat in a while.

Heartbreaking actually.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:36 PM

Have to agree with you Alba. I left it yesterday for two reasons. One because it simply became ridiculous and the other I had to attend a house of a friend who died.

He had served 16 years in an English prison for a crime he did not commit. The British goverment accepted he was wrongly convicted along with five other Irishmen.

One thing I did find though on this thread was the fact I thought I knew some members, sadly my judgement was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Alba
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:48 PM

Aye Divis.
My thoughts are with you on the passing of your Dear Friend.
May he rest, as he lived. In Peace.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 09:22 PM

Did U Know....

That Neutral Ireland locked up 30,000 Nazi spies during The Emergency, and let captured British soldiers 'escape' over the Border to NI?

In fact, Keith, if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German.

Nice thought isn't it?

And unre-writeable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 02:59 AM

Yes Guest, Neutral Ireland did all that and more to help.
It was the Quislings of the IRA who sought to bring the Stormtroopers to Erin.
Freedom fighters Guest?
The Nazis were not known for bringing freedom to the lands they occupied.
The SS and the Gestapo would have been more than worthy successors to the Tans.
Had IRA had its way it is you who would be speaking German.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:03 AM

I sense that many will doubt what I say.
Here is a piece by a professor of Irish History at NUI in Maynooth.
Those who see the IRA through rose tinted glass prepare to be shocked.
Especially on the subject of Jew Cleansing.


Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the 'respect and esteem' in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.

The above information comes not from one of Russell's many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin's Fairview Park and concluded that he was a 'worthy successor to Tone and Casement'. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations.



However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain.

The IRA's statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting 'German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing'. These papers also noted how the IRA and their 'strange bedfellow General O'Duffy' were lauding as 'liberators' powers that held 'Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia' in subjection.

War News, the IRA's main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:08 AM

Thank God for the bravery men like Sweeney's uncles who stood up against such wickedness.
And shame on him for dishonouring them on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:41 AM

Such a load of twat this guy has written above. Why would the I.R.A. not support Britain ? I wonder why ? After all it did on her people for hundreds of years. There was more support for Hilter in Britain than Ireland ! Sir Oswald Mosley had more members than the I.R.A.!

Arthur bomber Harris did a clean up Keith on German women and children in dresden, what's your views on that ?

Keith a well known anti- Irish bigot. You have some hang up friend. Seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:46 AM

Will someone [ Joe ? ] please kill this thread, we really can do without
all this personal abuse etc.

eric the red AKA Dave Hanson

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:49 AM

"this guy" gives the sources he drew on, mostly Republican publications.
Yes, the IRA had very few members. They were utterly out of touch with ordinary Irish people.
I have nothing to say about area bombing of cities, except that it was appalling.
How dare you call me an anti Irish bigot.
Back up your slander with examples, or withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:01 AM

Eric, the abuse is all coming my way.
Thank you for your support, but I hope this thread is not deleted on my account.
It only hurts those who make the false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:04 AM

The only one I see making any sense here is ardmhacha. Keith you didn't like the idea of the nazi's coming into Britain and forcing rule on you. You were asked what you would do against an occupying force ?

You failed to answer !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:10 AM

Star a new thread and I will try to answer.
Let us try to keep this discussion to the film and rewriting history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:40 AM

They are two different subjects Keith. In your attempts to twin the two together, you show your blatant anti-Irishness.

I would welcome the film that shows how the IRA bombed the British to the negotiating table.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:51 AM

The suggestion is that most historical films have rewriten history.
One subject.
Why does that make me anti Irish?
I am going to stop responding to nameless guests who are starting to dominate this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:13 AM

This news just released from a Kigs College Cambridge study shows that some 25% of part-time recruits and 19% of regular British soldiers returning from Iraq have mental health problems.

Post-traumatic stress disorder [PTSD]was one of the mental conditions that was found to be recurring in these soldiers.
Former soldier turned author Alistair Renwick documented some of the Northern Ireland cases of PTSD in his book Hidden Wounds. In one case soldier Jimmy Johnson suffereing from PTSD beat a man to death.

He was imprisoned in 1974 but at that time his condition was not diagnosed. He came out in 1983 and 18 months after his release killed another man.

Johnson has done much from inside prison to raise the question of lack of treatment for PTSD.
For too long those at the British MOD have been content to kick the question of mental illness under the carpet.

Given that the level of prisoners suffering from mental health disorder has been put as high as 70% surely a detailed breakdown of service personnell should be made a priority.

As I keep telling you these mental cases having done their bit for Queen and country return to haunt YOUR streets, you are welcome to them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Stu
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:45 AM

The film looks good though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 May 06 - 07:38 AM

Are you saying that maybe the Tans weren't the scum of the earth, but just ordinary blokes with really bad PTSD after four years on the Western Front?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 06 - 02:13 PM

Glad to see peace seems to have come to this thread. All of you have a viewpoint and lets respect that. Heated,passionate and emotional sums it up. Let's hope this bloody film is as good !

All still friends I hope? Yes this is the great thing about mudcat.

Good luck to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:16 PM

I wasn't gpong to post here again but I feel I must say "Very well said indeed, Guest of 02:13"

That is indeed the beauty of Mudcat and, after some of the nastiness that has been happening on other threads of late, it is wonderful to see a grown up discussion that does not resort to foul mouthed name calling. Shame that any personal attacks occurs at all but as, on this thread anyway, it all seemed to be the work of other nameless characters I think we can safely ignore it. Guest 02:13 you are the reason that Guests should be allowed to post here.

Many thanks.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:37 PM

A peaceful night to all.
I expect we will be at it again tomorow.
Good luck,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:43 PM

And a peaceful good night from Ireland to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 08:16 AM

I've been away for a while, but I have to agree with ard mhacha's comment on the status of serving soldiers.

To call trained troops "scum of the earth" is acceptable.
I'm afraid that many people here are unable to accept that military training brutalises. These young men simply become hired killers, doing the bidding of whatever madman weilds power over them.

The Iraq conflict is a very good example of this.
The reasons for war have been changed so often, and nuanced to such an extent that I'm sure most of the soldiers neither know nor care what is right or wrong.
I remember National Service in Britain, and the brutalising of many of my young friends.
On leaving the Army some recovered after a few years....some did not...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:01 AM

I've never heard such crap in my entire life Ake, I've served in the British Army, have you ?

eric, [ ex cavalry man ]

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:20 AM

When I was a boy every adult male, Dad, uncles, teachers, tradesmen,
were all ex military.
I don't remember any brutes though.
The army in Iraq can not be said to be acting like hired killers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:54 AM

Well Keith you were either lucky or blind.

The young men I speak of, I knew intimately.
I live in what was then a very isolated area and those men went to school with me, grew up with me, chased the girls with me.
They were well adjusted people with the well devoloped sensitivity of country folk.
Almost every face I call to mind was badly affected by his spell in uniform.
Some were almost unrecognisable on their return, many suffered severe pschological problems, all returned harder and less sensitive.

The syndrome is put best in my opinion by Lewis Grassic Gibbon in his famous novel "Sunset Song", where Chris's husband Ewan ..a peasant farmer, returns from France to a horrified Chris, who cannot believe him to be the kind gentle boy who left her a year before.

Everyone should read Lewis Grassic Gibbon's novel, it would aid our understanding of the state of our society today...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley
Date: 26 May 06 - 10:24 AM

I served in the Artillery for three years during National Service. Remember the beatings well. It was brutal take it from me. Few of us like to talk about it. Think it's best passed over. Flora, mustard and jam.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 May 06 - 11:02 AM

I juast woder if those people in Kings College Cambridge are really planted Paddies?.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley
Date: 26 May 06 - 11:46 AM

Ard mhacha I was in Kings College. Remember awaiting the conference results in a hell of a blizzard. Some people don't like to admit to it as the practice is somewhat shameful. Remember an Irish guy there called Cassidy, he collected postcards. Maybe he was involved !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:04 PM

Damn! Missed the 100 and lost the plot while I was at it. Who are these Irishmen at Kings College? I was just begining to re-enjoy it as well!

Thanks, Guest of 8:16, I begin to see, at last, where you and ard are coming from. You say To call trained troops "scum of the earth" is acceptable. and, believe or not I now understand the sentiment. I quoted a few lines of Kipling earlier on - From Tommy Atkins to be precise. The Soldier, it seems, has been considered scum from those times at least. A lot longer I suspect!

I must admit I picked up more on the 'British Army' bit than the trained troops aspect. In the context that the British Army is part of that group of 'trained troops' (Perhaps the Universal Soldier to give us a musical leaning?) I will accept that they are, to many, the 'scum of the earth'. I disagree in other ways as all the soldiers and ex-soldiers I know have been decent human beings - But I have only seen thm in civies!

Rememeber of course that in war there are only allies and enemies. The scum of one side are the angels of the other. Chances are neither view is the whole truth though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:14 PM

You've summed up my ramblings very well Dave.
Thanks..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 May 06 - 04:49 PM

A post from DtG that is honest, and unlike some of the others who never did take my advice and see the workings of an army of occupation by Googling John McGuffin for an education on how the British Army behaved in the north of Ireland.

This bye the way is far from being a Thread drift, just pointing out similar terror tatics as the Tans and Auxies used to subdue a risen people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 06 - 05:50 PM

Not just in Northern Ireland either, ard mhacha. And not just the British army! Until we stop training people how to kill and maim it will continue happening all over the world:-( How do we have soldiers that aren't trained like that though? Are they a necessary evil? Trouble is I don't know what the answer is.

But knowing the Mudcat someone will;-)

BTW - before I lose the thread altogether does anyone have any details of where and when this film is showing?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 08:34 PM

I have watched this thread daily. It started out reviewing a film. Then it attacked the Irish people. It then attacked individual Irish members. Saw very little sense in some of the posts.

Have to say what ard mhacha has said here has made a lot of sense and I took his advice and read the pages he referred to.

Divis took a lot of hits and never got replies to the questions he posed.

Dave brought calm to rough waters.

If you ask do us lot in the States understand the English ? NO!

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Alba
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:34 PM

Dave the UK cinema release date for the Film is 23rd June 2006.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:39 AM

Cheers Jude - The timing makes it a good remedy for World cup fever! I am looking forward to it even more now. No-one has told me about the Irish in Kings college though...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:57 AM

Fascinating to read about a the various Catholic and Protestant pressure groups leafleting and protesting outside cinemas showing The da Vinci Code over there.

i saw the film last night. Couldn't really see why Hope Ireland feel the population is at risk from it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 May 06 - 06:59 AM

Drummer boy speaking for a hell of a lot of Irish friends we have as much interest in the Da Vinci Code as we have in the Mogolian local election, and on second thoughts don`t read McGuffins books, it would be better to let you rave on in your ignorance of all things Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:03 AM

American Guest, if you are also all the previous Guests you are getting very repetitive.
anti Irish?
attacking Irish?
At the risk of being as repetitive as you, PLEASE GIVE EXAMPLES of such posts here or shut up.
And if you want to debate you need a name so we know which guest you are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:14 AM

Sorry did not realise I needn't to be a member to debate.

Convenient answer from someone who was asked several questions in above replies and still refused to answer them.

Are you saying Member Keith that you did answer all the questions the above members put to you ?

If so they didn't appear !

Please reply and say why you will not answer these members.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:32 AM

No need to be a member, just give a name or nickname.
I offered to answer the question about how I would respond to an invasion of Britain in a new thread.
This is not the place.
I take it that you could not find an example of an anti Irish post so please drop that spurious allegation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:50 AM

Why is there no room in the above for your reply ?

You seem to be willing and able to cover most other subjects in it.

Yet again convenient.

So are you now saying you are pro Irish ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:56 AM

Yes Guest, I am pro Irish but anti the paramilitaries, Loyalist and Republican, who have brought so much death and misery, and delayed the legitimate aspirations of the Nationalist people of the North.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:20 AM

Thank you Keith. I agree with your viewpoints and I am sure you will agree, those paramilitaries came about due to Britain being in Ireland in the first place, otherwise why did they exist ? what cause had they.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:33 AM

Guest(s??)
Interesting discussion points that I have debated many times on this forum.
I will gladly repeat my arguments to you by PM because all the other contributors here have heard them before.
However if you think up a Guest name and start a new thread I will happily debate with you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Guest,
You said you are from the States (or one of you did)
Are you a Native American?
If so your lands were invaded more recently than Ireland was.
Do you think that you should explode bombs in shopping malls and railroad stations because of that? Backshoot young police officers and service people, on and off duty?

Are you a Mexican American from California?
Then your state and others were taken by force from your ancestors much more recently than any part of Ireland.
Your Californian gold financed the industrialisation of USA. Your histories would have been very different.

Should you start killing the Gringos now?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:22 PM

Do you think that you should explode bombs in shopping malls and railroad stations because of that? Backshoot young police officers and service people, on and off duty?

Or there is the other side of the coin.

Come here and defend paid government assassins. Be involved with loyalist gunmen in Collision. Be found guilty in the European courts of human justice of torture and other crimes.Defend an army who murdered children in the streets. Shoot young men involved in no crime in the back. Send innocent Irishmen to jail for crimes they did not commit.

It's not black and white Keith. Don't try to make out that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:41 PM

leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann have apologised unreservedly to the victims of their actions.

A dramatic and unprecedented move occured last July when the IRA apologised 'unreservedly' to anyone affected during their campaign.


To this day neither the British Army nor the British government have made any form of apology to the Irish people for their actions. Nor have they made any form of apology to those interned without trail.

I hope people reading these posts can see that Keith is continuously trying to provoke me about the IRA. Only he has the answer as to why. I see no point is asking him for his reason as he doesn't answer my questions anyway.

How many times must I repeat the above statement ? I think I have done this twelve times since last July.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Bente
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:51 PM

Keith. Divis has posed a good question here to you. What is your problem ? He said sorry to you, are you going to sorry to him ?

Or is it your afraid of your mates in the territorial army reading it ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:52 PM

I was just responding to our American Guest's last comment Divis.
I do know that PIRA has announced an end to hostilities.
30 years late but welcome all the same.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:55 PM

30 years to late for you Keith, how long must the Irish people wait for the one from the British, it too would be welcomed ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:00 PM

Guest Bente,
A lot of questions have been flying around.
Which are you referring to?
I wish I could find the post where Sweeney said sorry to me.
Was it for the insulting way he dismissed my viewpoint at the start of this thread?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:04 PM

I am native, Boise, Idaho. Clearly you support the British remaining in Ireland and defend their crimes against it's people, please answer.

Yeah I noticed to that you ignore the tricky questions. So why post if you only want it one way ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:07 PM

Territorial soldier, enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:15 PM

No i will not answer here unless it is about the film or that period up to WW2
Instead I will start a new thread.
Here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:17 PM

Keith in front of other members as my witness can I ask you these questions once again, simply answer them yes or no.

What would you do if your country was invaded by another countries army. Would you rise up or lay down ?

Have I not on more than one ocassion showed you that the IRA said sorry to it's victims for their campaign ?


Have I not asked you to admit that the British army were guilty of murder of innocent people in Ireland ?

Please Keith answer these simple three questions before more build up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Bente
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:20 PM

So you will only answer to questions about the film ? you have had plenty to say about every other topic only the film !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:36 PM

My new thread

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:15 PM

This is a very sad song: boy and sweetheart are saying goodbye because he can't stand "foreign chains around us". He's going to "join the bold, united men while soft winds shake the barley." While they have an affectionate farewell a sniper shoots the girl, "...and on my breast in blood she died while soft winds shook the barley." He goes out for revenge, then lays "my true love's clay-cold corpse where I full-soon may follow. As 'round her grave I wander drear--noon, night, and morning early, with breaking heart whene'er I hear the wind that shakes the barley." Very sad report on some reasons why war & conquest are the wrong ways to relate to people. Belligerants attend...cease belligering.             Tw

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:29 PM

Ah... the dirge I sing most often. I heard it first sung by a lad of note when I could first hear as a babe in my crib. Ya know...I recall that songman, who shall remain nameless, saying, in a nutshell, and I paraphrase, radically, "God Bless England... for the last nine hundred years."

Being a Canuck of Irish Descent, I know very little of any of this. I only know of the spirit of my forefathers who left Ireland five generations ago. I only know the songs they taught to me. From lullabies to fight songs. They were songs of humour and of sorrow. But, overall, they were all songs of spirit. The songs, the poetry, the prose, the dance... this is what I cherish. I am forever grateful that I know not of the strife... even though, that is why I am me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:12 PM

Well Ken Roach does at least make good films , wether you agree with the sentiments expressed or not ! This one has won the Palm d'Or at Cannes !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:24 PM

Like you, gnu, I'm an aussie of Irish (and scottish) descent, and grew up on a diet of music and stories, handed down over generations. My father was a wonderful singer and storyteller, and a wonderful man.

Its interesting that Ken Loach has commented that The Wind That Shakes The Barley is a critique of today's war in Iraq. He has also said, "Our film is a little, a very little step in the British confronting their imperialist history. And maybe if we tell the truth about the past, maybe we tell the truth about the present."

Palm d'Or at Cannes is no mean achievement - I look forward to seeing it.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:11 AM

Well done Ken Loach a unanimous verdict from the Cannes jury, Irish actor Cillian Murphy was amazed to have so many English friends asking him for more information on the Black and Tans and their role in Ireland.
His astonishment was, that none of them had heard of the Tans and their dirty deeds in Ireland, a hell of a lot more has been swept under the carpet from then.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:34 AM

Got two pm's myself ard from members about the Tans. One had read up a bit on the internet the other asked what books I would advise to read to learn more. Great to see the repression highlighted in this film. Hope it's one of more to come from Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:30 PM

I see the film is to be released in Ireland on June 29th, so as this Thread heads over the horizon, a futher chapter can be added when we see the film.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:15 PM

If only ard another member could keep it to the film in question this time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:03 PM

SUCH A LOAD OF TWAT.
Review: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
By Darren Waters a well known supporter of British policy in Ireland
BBC News entertainment reporter

Ken Loach speaking at the Cannes film festival said The Wind That Shakes The Barley was a story he had to tell.

Set in Ireland in the 1920s it recounts events that led to the formation of an independent Ireland and the creation of Northern Ireland.

The Wind That Shakes The Barley
The Wind That Shakes The Barley is set in 1920s Ireland
Loach's aim is to cast his political eye on events that are rarely discussed in the UK and beyond and remain open wounds for many Irish citizens.

Cillian Murphy plays Damien, a young man set to leave Ireland and become a doctor in London.

But events overtake him.

At the start of the film, Ireland remains an effective colony of the UK; with British soldiers stationed in the country.

Damien witnesses the murder of a young friend, killed at the hands of brutal British soldiers because he would only give his name in Gaelic, and not in English.

Determinedly political

As he prepares to depart for London, soldiers attack a train driver because they have been told by unions not to carry British military personnel.

Encouraged by friends to fight the British he enlists in a small cell of Irish republicans, part of the IRA.

Paul Laverty's script is one-eyed, and unashamedly so. Loach and Laverty's aim is determinedly political - to show an occupied country which rises up to throw off the yoke of an invading army.

It is a clear attempt to find resonance with events in Iraq, with the US in the role of the Empire clinging on to the past.

Such lack of balance, however, results in a one-dimensional script. The British are depicted as cardboard cut-out thugs and the motivation for the protagonists is delivered with a heavy hand when a lighter touch is needed.

The film works best when examining the emotional turbulence felt by ordinary Irish men and women when they have to turn to armed struggle and murder.

In one scene the Irish Republican Army attacks a British troop convoy and many of the Republicans are visibly distressed with the deaths they have caused.

But the power of the scene evaporates when the soldiers return home only to find British troops attacking an Irish farm and its female-only habitants as part of a search for IRA members.

The Wind That Shakes The Barley
The film heralded Ken Loach's first Palme d'Or win
It clumsily absolves the characters of any guilt over their murderous actions and sets the tone for the subjective stance of the film.

Fractious tensions

Murphy handles his role well - and wrings out depth from his character that is not written down on the page. His sense of torture when forced to shoot an informer from his own ranks is both touching and the touchstone of the film.

The supporting cast of Padraic Delaney, Liam Cunningham and Orla Fitzgerald is also very strong.

The film loses its sense of purpose towards the end when Loach and Laverty examine the division within Irish republicanism that led to brother against brother and family against family.

In one scene, characters reel off dull, political rhetoric. It was intended as a glimpse into the fractious tensions of the time but feels rather more like a party political broadcast.

As one of several films at Cannes which dealt squarely with war - and specifically aimed to make connections with the war in Iraq and its aftermath - The Wind That Shakes The Barley was the most straight-forwardly political.

Loach has lamented that the events of the 1920s in Ireland remain little known outside the country itself.

The Palme d'Or win will ensure the film reaches a wider audience but it is disappointing that his Cannes win comes for one of his weaker films.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 May 06 - 05:05 AM

Well Billy what else did you expect from Watters,the sour grapes are choking him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 06 - 05:50 AM

Billy,
Good to catch you here.
You forget to give the posts that would make a liar of me in the other thread.
Please do so or take back the slur.

(Billy is an unusual name for a Republican.
Do your friends call you King?
...'king Billy perhaps.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:03 PM

"His astonishment was, that none of them had heard of the Tans and their dirty deeds in Ireland, a hell of a lot more has been swept under the carpet from then (sic)."

You don't know how true this is Ard, and films such as Loach's will hopefully open the eyes of the general populace in Britain to some of the oppression dished out in their name over the centuries (and still being in other parts of the world).

Where I lived in England we never even did our own history in our O level lessons (early 80's), our exam board preferring social and economic history of the eighteenth - 20th centuries (when we were robbed of our lands by the Acts of Enclosure - we've all suffered under the Norman yoke on these Islands).

There was no chance of finding out what happened in Ireland or any of the other places our predecessors stuck their oar into. Previous to secondary school, our history lessons pedalled the same old tripe. Cromwell was portrayed as a crusader of justice and defender of the common man, and the Empire was a force for good that never did any wrong etc.

All complete twaddle of course, but that's the way we were brought up. When IRA bombs were going off in the city I lived near people were scared witless - there was no way of questioning the reason why this was happening - of the cause and effect so to speak.

I know plenty of people who still hold strong views about the various protagonists in The Troubles which have not changed for decades because we were never given a different point of view. Just look at the reaction in the British press to the film and you will see what I mean - no attempt to see another side of the coin, to address the core issues because it was seen to be almost traitorous to critisise 'our boys' over there.

Of course the situation is not that black and white as we all know now, but I find it disturbing that those involved in all sides of the conflict are still portrayed in such basic terms (interestingly, Loach has been critisised himself for portraying the British in the film as one-dimensional villans, which is an easy trap to fall into when represeting an enemy).

I consider myself lucky. I came to view the situation differently because I love Irish traditional music and wanted to play it. Gradually I became familiar with some of the arguments from the other side of the fence, and I can say now my view has changed dramatically. This is due to folk music (from all our Island's traditions), which carries an honesty and fundamental truth film makers would do well to learn from, and which enables anyone to see more than the one-sided black and white viewpoints that some would like to make us all accept.

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:24 PM

Stigweard, Quite a few years ago the BBC did a series on the British Empire, for the India episode they had John Cameron the Scottish journalist write and narrate his account of the Raj and their doings in that part of the world.
He referred to an incident in Afghanistan in which a large number of British troops were wiped out by the Afghans, John found after much research that this episode of the Afghan campaign in the [circa] 1850s was never seen in any history books.    In my time in England I was amazed to find that very little was known of Englands affairs with her neighbouring island,in a recent University Challenge TV Programme, three simple questions on Irish geography went unanswered by the students.

Nothing seems to have changed when we are confronted by some of the opinions on Ireland by various British `catters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:55 PM

I wonder who ard? Charolotte ? Keith ? John ? or Looney tunes !

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 04:03 PM

And Zebadee said "Time for Bed"

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:22 PM

Only hibernating.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM

Just watched a programme there on Ulster television about the hired police hitman Haddock. Six ex detectives have come forward and stated that he was responsible for the murder of over 20 people. One said he arrested Haddock after two local people who saw the murder and name him, he wasn't masked. The ex detectives were told in the station by special branch to release him ! The UVF have killed 32 people since 1994, and not one person has been charged with any of these murders. The programme stated there was clear evidence of British collusion in twenty of these murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Film: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM

This evil "Divas Sweeney" should rot in hell - true scum!

Subject: RE: BS: Film: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:44 PM

Hi GUEST DB
Good chance I probably will ! So your wife and mother have confessed all to you !
I suppose to late to say sorry, but a man's needs are many !

Subject: RE: BS: Film: The Wind That Shakes The Barley
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:58 PM

Divis Sweeney the above post did not come in from the real DB. I will pm you the true identity of poster.

Best regards
J