BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?

Subject: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:10 AM

Folkies such as Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A.L.Loyd, Dick Gaughan and others were paid up members of the Communist Party. They wanted to turn Ireland and Great Britain into communist countries. They failed. Thank God! We do not live under a totalitarian nightmare that they invisaged.

However, in these post-socialist days, does anyone still call themselves a socialist, or, indeed, a communist? If so, why? Socialism and communisim are totally discredited - or are they? Maybe you think differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM

First, Communism socialism and totalitarianism are three different things.

Communism won't work because it can not deal with greed. It is human nature to want whatever we have for ourselves, and if possible, what others have.

Russian communism was not communism at all. It was the next thing to slavery.

Socialism is the best of the three, and even America has a certain amount of that. Otherwise, who could afford his own roads, schools and army?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

It's beginning to look like Big Bill Haywood was right all along, and that any meaningful labor movement would have to be world wide. This has become more apparent with the growth of multinational corporations.
          That being the case, I'm starting to lean that way.

       WORKERS OF THE WORLD ARISE!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM

Please give a working definition of socialism, PE. At least for the purposes of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

Socialism is far from discredited, and I think it won't be long before we see a resurgence of interest in Marxism as the false promise of consumererism is revealed.

In my opinion (and you know what Clint said about them) the capitalist sytem is on the verge of failing. In the Western world, and increasingly across the rest of the globe citizens are being turned into consumers. We are simply becoming targets to buy more and more junk we don't need - we are bombarded with advertising and are made to pay for everything - the banks refer to us as 'lemons' becuase we're there to be squeezed for profit.

Capitalism fails because the benefits don't filter down to the lower castes of society (although the politicians would have us believe this is the case). The gap betwen rich and poor grows wider at a steady pace, and the underclasses that inhabit cities globally are increasingly disenfranchised from the democratic process as they struggle to keep up with the demads where money is the only passport to freedom.

Capitalism fails to combat climate change, fails to address the gross injustices visited on the third world, especially Africa (remember the vacuous crap the G8 leaders spouted last week - all words, no action). This is mainly because we have no politicians of any integrity left any more - they are all so in the pockets of their various private sector benefaactors that no decision is made that takes into account the interests of citizens over business.

But changes are afoot - there is a growing realisation that to protect the most vulnerable members of society, to make sure we have a planet left for our children and everyone gets a chance to earn a living free of exploitation, we have to change, and socialism and Marxism provide some answers. Heck, even Tony Blair said the 'S' word on the telly the other day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:57 AM

Seiri Ommar, I wont give a definition of socialism. I allow everyone to interpret the word as they see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,bloke in the corner
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:57 AM

Of course, I am one. In fact I am one the few Thatcherite Socialists around, being both utterly committed to the well being of working class people such as myself, and also recognising that Maggie did so much more for the working class than any Labour government ever did, by making Britain prosperous again. For we all know, don't we, that socialist cant during poverty (eg during the Wilson regimes) does not fill bellies or create happiness. Remember 'the pound in your pocket' remember 27% inflation, remember the dead lying unburied, remember the dreadful Healey going cap in hand to the IMF for 4 billion quid to bail us out?
God bless the great socialist leader Maggie, for she made the country rich, some of which filtered down to us poor ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM

Socialism "totally discredited"???? Oh, don't be silly. Any well functioning modern society is a harmonious combination of socialism and capitalism. That's normal. To think it's an "either or" proposition and you must choose one or the other is simply downright stupid. They complement each other very effectively. They each do well what the other doesn't do well.

As such, I am both a socialist AND a capitalist, because I am not a fanatic or an absolutist.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:05 PM

I think that a pure communist society (which has very little to do with "Communism" as the countries that have designated themselves as communist up to now have practiced it) would work perfectly, if all the members of the society conducted their lives thinking only of the good of the society as a whole, without any concern for their personal desires. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

I think that a pure capitalist, libertarian, society would work perfectly if all the members of the society conducted their lives thinking only of their own personal self-interest - but their long-term self interest. Of course, that isn't going to happen either.

I think that the two societies that would result in the above two ideal cases would be hard to tell apart.

In the meantime, we need to strike a happy medium (flash of a guy in a robe looking into a crystal ball and giggling, while someone whacks him with a stick).

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

As I've said before in this forum, but not recently, when the Soviet Union self-destructed, they jettisoned the baby of Socialism with the wash water of Communism. The ideal would've been to have that revolution in Russia eradicate totalitarianism while keeping aspects of Socialism in place. Socialism is just common sense; providing health-care and a living for all----especially the young, the elderly, and the infirm in a way that has no stigma-very important----and is, indeed, accepted, by all, as a normal and humane way to operate in this so called best of all possible worlds.

This is not to advocate outlawing capitalism. But I think we can keep aspects of socialism that simply make us better people--- and a better society.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM

Penguin Egg, your lack of a definition means you are operating based on a view of Socialism that is an incorrect generalization. In other words, you don't know what Socialism is, just what you have been fed.

You already have elements of Socialism. Social Security is one. If you are in Canada or the UK you have National Health Care. All social service programs are socialist programs.

Socialism is not discredited. In fact, here in the US, when they finally resolve the health care problem, it will be with a social program. When the powers that be decide to protect the workers ability to make a living, it will be with a social program.

Communism and Socialism are not necessarily the same thing. And Communism as practiced in the Soviet Union was not a good example of anything except totalitarianism. And it failed, as it should have.

I agree with Art. Capitalism has many advantages, but it will be the socialist types of reforms that will fix the ills.

And to answer your question, yes, I consider myself something of a Socialist.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

Exactly, Art. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Peter...LMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:34 PM

They wanted to make the UK a communist country. Oswald Moseley wanted to make it a fascist country. Thank goodness both sets of extremists failed!

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Canada is somewhat socialist. It works for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Never been a communist, never been a socialist, and anyone who would favors totalitarianism shouldn't be allowed to roam about without a nurse. I have always favored capitalism. Oh, sure, I knew there were some inequities, but I believed those advocates of capitalism who claimed that everything would eventually work out (i.e., when the government stopped interfering).

I've grown older and wiser since those days, and I've seen a lot more of the way things actually work. Through reading history and through general observation of the world, I've seen that those main agents of capitalism—businesses and corporations—rum amok like a tribe of robber-barons unless they are held in check by government regulation (which, of course, is why the corporations concentrate greatly on buying politicians with lavish campaign contributions and other bribes—what else can you call it?). Capitalism, it turns out, is institutionalize greed.

And I now have an idea of the way other countries work out their problems, and manage public services:   good, efficient mass transit systems, universal health care, services that show a regard and respect for human dignity, such as taking care of the poor and those elderly who are unable to care for themselves, and a host of other manifestations of simple decency. Believe me, America is not the "shining city on the hill" that's supposed to be an example to the rest of the world.

Communism? No! But if getting this country's socks pulled up and getting it to become one of the civilized countries on this planet takes a dose of socialism, then so be it, say I!

Stigweard has the right of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:40 PM

Russia doesn't use the "communist" label these days. The KGB has been been renamed. Otherwise a lot of things still seem to go on much the same. Get in the bad books of the State, and you are liable to get liquidated. Try going on strike and you're in real trouble.

And in many of the other former countries which made up the Soviet Union the situation is even worse.

The idea that the Cold War was really anything to do with ideology doesn't really stand up. It was about power.

Totalitarian governments can operate under any type of economic structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM

To suggest that Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A L Lloyd and Dick Gaughan envisaged a totalitarian nightmare is crass, insulting and disingenuous to the nth degree. How do you usually open conversations with acquaintances, by punching them in the mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

Well said, Ythanside.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

"The idea that the Cold War was really anything to do with ideology doesn't really stand up. It was about power."

             It seems to me it was about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:11 PM

It was about global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:16 PM

I'm happy to aspire to be a socialist, but I don't think Penguin Egg would understand why, given his/her staggeringly inept first post.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

I am one of those Godless, filthy socialist swine... In fact, I would tend to go along with those posters, who effectively say that any sane society must balance socialism and capitalism. In their most fundamental forms, socialism and capitalism are simply the extremes of structuring society to cater for the needs of society as a whole or to protect the rights of the individual. It does not take a genius to see that any society with a future has to achieve a balance between the two.
I personally think that society currently confers too many priveleges on those, who already have wealth and power. That makes me a socialist in most people's book.
We get into the same trap here that we do with the religious debates. There is always a danger of believing that other poeple are going to define themselves by our definitions of particular concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

In defence of Lenin he was actively opposed to the slaughterhouse that was the First World War.

It is a hard to remember now but the whole of European democracy loudly embraced the War and played the patriot war card.The only parties to oppose it were the Bolsheviks in Russia and the Independent Labour Party together with a very few parties in Holland.

In Germany the home of the largest Labour type party in the world only Karl Liebknecht voted against "war credits" in the German parliament.He was to spend time in prison for his anti war work and was murdered along with Rosa Luxemburg, in 1919.

The anti war position was a hard one to take especially in the first years of the war.In 1916 when an international peace conference was called at Zimmerwald in Switzerland the delegates who attended numbered around 30 including Lenin.

I think he saved the honour of International Socialism and the huge anti war rebellions broke out with the help of left wing agitation in both Russia and Germany within the next two years.Also this anti war atmosphere infected the french and British armies ...the soldiers wanted an end to the war madness and that made Lenin an inspiration to the most political and anti war sections of the working class throughout Europe.

Alistair Hulett has made a great CD about Red Clydeside which is ,in part,about Lenin's ally in Scotland,John McLean.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

I keep seeing articles that tell how liberalism and socialism have failed and withered away. It does seem like they took a downturn in the 1980's, when Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher ruled the roost, and liberals were being voted out of office all over the world. The Reagan-Thatcher brand of capitalism didn't work very well, either. As has been said above, what seems to work best is a blend of the best of both capitalism and socialism. Now, if we could add integrity and common sense into the blend, we might finally accomplish something.
-Joe, who calls himself a Social Democrat-

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

Socialism has become a device to render capitalism more user friendly.

The health of the planet requires that we use/waste less of everything, especially organisation.
If the species is to survive we must stop promising an unsustainable standard of living to our people.

As we strive for more of everything, we destroy what is of real value but costs nothing....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

"VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE,
VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE,
VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES, GET UP OFF DER ASSES,
DEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE!"
(with many thanks to the late Walt Robertson, with some harmony in the background from several current MC members)! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

"The Reagan-Thatcher brand of capitalism didn't work very well,"

         I don't think it became apparent to a lot of people how completely this brand of capitalism did not work until recently. Now that we have hedge funds and holding companies in control of huge gobs of amalgamated capital, and they can simply run all over the world and, in effect, control markets at will, socialism looks a lot more attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM

I am Socialist (I have a card and everything).

Socialism is a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by and in the interest of the whole community. This means a moneyless, stateless and classless society.

The terms 'socialism' and 'communism' were used interchangeably by likes of Karl Marx.

Describing capitalism with "worker-friendly reforms" or capitalism with state-ownership as socialism or communism is a massive hindrance to the movement.

Socialism/communism have never been tried so they are not discredited. All around us everyday is the evidence that socialism will be a more successful society. People are not inherently greed, we do not generally take more than we can consume. People can work together, democratically, without leaders and we get things done. People are not lazy, millions of people volunteer to work for free every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:25 PM

Well said, Piers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:28 PM

a little appropiate music

- proud to be a socialist too!

btw - anyone have the lyrics to "As soon as this pub closes the revolution starts"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:40 PM

I guess I'm closer to being a socialist than anything else...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:43 PM

To Tony Bliar, socialist is a dirty word. I've always worked under the premise that if Tony says it's good for me then it isn't.

I believe socialism is something to aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

Hear, hear, Rog!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:01 PM

I don't usually comment on PE's posts but here I'll make an exception.
I am not or have ever been either a capitalist or a communist but I will always be proud to call myself a socialist. As a past labour union leader
I have dealt with capitalism at it's highest levels and I believe that it is a necessary force to generate an economy from which we all benefit. However without socialist input and moderation greed would rule and the worker would see little benefit beyond exploitation.
What really puzzles me is right wing religion. It would seem to me that Christ was also a socialist. Be your brothers keeper, cast your bread upon the waters, and that bit about getting the camel through the eye of the needle. No right wing sentiment there!
                            Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

Well said Sandy.

Ewan MacColl also recognised Jesus to be a socialist re:

'The Ballad of The Carpenter'

Jesus was a working man and a hero you will hear
Born in the town of Bethlehem
At the turning of the year, at the turning of the year

When Jesus was a little lad the streets rang with his name
For he argued with the older men
And he put them all to shame, he put them all to shame

He became a wandering journey man, he wandered far and wide
And he noticed how wealth and poverty
Live always side by side, live always side by side

So he said "Come all you working men weavers and fishermen too
If you could only stand as one
This world belongs to you, this world belongs to you."

When the rich men heard what the carpenter had done to the Roman troops they ran
Saying put this rebel Jesus down
He's a menace to God and man, he's a menace to God and man

The commander of the occupying troops just laughed and then he said
"There's a cross to spare on Calvary hill
By the weekend he'll be dead, by the weekend he'll be dead"

But Jesus walked among the poor for the poor were his own kind
And they'd never let them get near enough
To take him from behind, to take him from behind

So they hired one of the traitor's trade and an informer was he
He sold his brother to the butcher men
For a fistful of silver money, for a fistful of silver money

Jesus sat in the prison cell and they beat him and offered him bribes
To desert the cause of his fellow men and
And work for the rich man's tribe, and work for the rich man's tribe

Oh the sweat stood out on Jesus' brow and the blood was in his eyes
As they nailed his body to the Roman cross
And they laughed as they watched him die, they laughed as they watched him die

Two thousand years have passed and gone and many a hero too
But the dream of this poor carpenter
Remains in the hands of you, belongs in the hands of you.

Also recorded by Phil Ochs

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

Socialists are not communists and vice versa. true communism is the ideal form of living as delineated in Moore's Utopia.
Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation.
The stated aim of socialism is to raise everybody's living standards to the same level, what it usually ends up doing is lowering everybody's standard of living to the lowest common denominator.
Neither system works as a method of governing a country, mainly because idealism does not translate into workable policies.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM

Read that in a Murdoch tabloid did you, John, or heard it on Fox News, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:59 PM

"the people who produce the wealth" - that's pretty well all of us together, one way and another.

There's really very little relationship between the value of the contribution we make as individuals and the reward we get for it. There are still people doing the hardest and most useful work and getting some of the lowest wages, for example care workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

"Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation."
(I find this a rather strange definition, perhaps driven more by dogma than truth)
First of all is it not the worker who "produces the wealth"?
Most workers don't despise their employer, but they demand a fair share of what they produce.
   I'm not sure what taxes have to do with defining socialism except perhaps demanding that the wealthy pay their fair share.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:35 PM

socialism - from Marxs definition was a step toward communism..
(the ideal of communism was when the state 'withered away')

however socialism has come to mean something else, generally
social programs for people - national health plan, pension plan etc..

Capitalism - as it is right now, however leaves out one major component.
that of the external costs, the environment, the commons, nature if you will. And unless a system accounts for third party external costs, then the destruction of the commons will continue..

Ie. dumping pollutants in the atmosphere, or oceans/lakes, overfishing,deforestation. etc.
and its not just a matter of assigning costs..

see Amory Lovins, Natural Capitalism as a proposal

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:57 PM

I'm a socialist slightly to the left of PolPot.

George Moore (not very famous Irish novelist) described Jesus, as 'the pale socialist of Galilee'. Mind you Thatcher thought Jesus was the first monetarist - he's a good one to have on your side!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:18 PM

Those who wish to demonize anything are always quite adept at finding some peculiar rationale for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:36 PM

I'm more a socialist than anything else. I grouch about the NDP (Canada's most left major party) not being socialist enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:20 PM

I rarely get into political discussions (hah!) but what was good enough for Brecht, Woody, Brel, Pete Seeger, Luke, Dick Gaughan, Christy Moore and about a thousand other singer/songwriters is good enough for me.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:30 PM

I'm almost afraid to comment as I don't feel I have a good enuogh handle on the various definitiions but I know after years of living in the US, when asked if I would rather live here or in the UK my answer is always, here, if i am rich, and there if I am not. And oddly enough, I wouldn't mind being there, being rich, and paying my fair share of taxes to support them as are not. It is simply ludicrous to expect everyone to have the ability to take care of themselves fully -- not everyone can. Those of us who can should help contribute towards the health and well being of those who can't -- just as they contribute towards the roads we all drive on and our schools all of our kids can attend through their taxes (they just pay less taxes but out of a smaller income -- seems fair to me).

As I understand Socialism, it is just FAIRER......

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:10 AM

I'm a post-modern socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:16 AM

'I was an anarcho-syndicalist marxist leninist......'

lyric from one of my autobiographical songs - Trish

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/trish.mp3

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:14 AM

Hello Petr and all -

"socialism - from Marxs definition was a step toward communism.."

This is incorrect - this was Lenin's view, not Marx. Marx did state that where capitalism wasn't developed, such as Russia at his time of writing, there would need to be a higher and lower phase of communism but he nowhere referred to either as socialism or communism. This distinction is irrelevant now as capitalism dominates almost every corner of the world.

Let's define capitalism:

Capitalism. A system of society based on the class monopoly of the means of production and distribution, it has the following six essential characteristics:
- Generalised commodity production, nearly all wealth being produced for sale on a market.
- The investment of capital in production with a view to obtaining a monetary profit.
- The exploitation of wage labour, the source of profit being the unpaid labour of the producers.
- The regulation of production by the market via a competitive struggle for profits.
- The accumulation of capital out of profits, leading to the expansion and development of the forces of production. A single world economy.

To define socialism we need a definition that opposes the essential characteristics of capitalism, otherwise we are defining a form of capitalism.

Thus, welfare-states, nationalised health services, "progressive" taxation, are part of capitalism.

The definition I gave above is the most robust definition because it opposes capitalism, and opposes the contradictions of the various other 'socialisms' that have been proposed. Socialism as a moneyless, stateless, classless society is the only way to have a society where democracy, creativity, ingenuity and humanity can flourish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:18 AM

No Ythanside, I wouldn't read a Murdoch newspaper or watch his TV channel if you paid me. I very rarely watch TV news, and when I do it is either BBC1 or BBC 24.
I am capable of forming my own opinions, and I would expect you to do unto me as I would unto you, and to respect my point of view.
I don't ask you to agree with it, merely to note that there are other points of view, and all points of view have the same validity!
I expect if you are a 'true socialist' you will now go on strike until I retract my statement!
That last sentence WAS by the way, a wee joke ¦¬]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

"Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation."

Aw heck Giok, whilst I respect your right to hold a (equally valid) personal opinion, I can't let that one slide. This comment betrays a degree of snobbery - the idea the vast majority of people are talentless drones who should allow themselves to be exploited by the bright shining lights of capitalism - deserving victims of their own lack of equality. It implies the only worthwhile work a citizen can do is that which contributes to the free market - so excluding health workers, carers etc.

Socialism represents the politics of justice - a system whereby a society can look after it's weakest members and make sure everyone, irrespective of personal wealth or accident of birth will enjoy basic standards of living and state-administered healthcare without the intervention of free-market economics. It is a fair system that encourages social responsibilty and ensures cohesion within individual communities, whilst retaining the idea of a tolerent, integrated society on a wider level.

The free market simply doesn't supply this. I'm a sole trader (and socialist!), I work bloody hard to contribute to my local economy, pay my taxes without trying to dodge them - this means I probably pay more tax that (for example) Phillip Green, uber-capitialist who lives in this country (as well as Monaco), makes plenty of money from it's citizens yet personally pays possibly less tax than me because his team of expensive accountants use loopholes to ensure he pays as little as possible, and thus he avoids his social responsibility to pay taxes for the benefit of our society.

Consumerism, the social face of capitialism, represents the true politics of envy - creating a marlet where we all aspire to become the thin, rich, perfect mannequins that are lauded as role models by a media that needs to secure advertising to function. Consumerism instills a degree of status anxienty into the populace based on the premise that to success is only measure in material wealth or personal beauty. It attempts to sell us things we don't need by making us insecure about our place in the social order - you're only a success if you have an expensive car, Sky + and a mortgage. You must be thin, of immaculate, ageless appearance or else hey - you're not worth it!

Whilst we need a degree of capitalism to function economically (as much as I'd like the communitst utopia to exist I agree with Giok's assertion that greed is always a factor), letting the free market dictate how the public sector functions is a recipe for disaster. When Thatcher instigated the selling of of the UK's social housing stock she germinated the crisis facing young people and many public (and increasingly private) sector workers today - a lack of affordable housing driving honest working people into potentially disasterous mortgage agreements simply for profit. At best this was a naive and short-sighted policy, at worst it was deliberate exploitation of a shared resource. Either way, it illustrates the failure of capitalism when dealing with public welfare issues.

I suppose it comes down to accountability. Capitalism takes way any degree of social responsibility because it only seeks to benefit those with a vested interest in profit - the shareholders or the board. Unelected, faceless and unknowable individuals pursing their own agendas. Socialism relies on accoutability - with elected representatives of the people administering the system and ensuring the civil service remains in the service of society, working for it's common good - true democaracy working from local to national level for the benefit of all.

And that has to be an ideology worth striving for - because we are ALL worth it.