BS: IRA ends armed campaign

Subject: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Den
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

There was some discussion about this on the loyalist weapons thread but I felt it deserved a thread of its own for discussion. For those who would like you can read the full statement HERE

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM

What is this going to do to Irish music, is what I want to know!

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Excellent idea, Den

Oh I think 'The Mountain Road', and 'The Crosses of Annagh' will still sound the same...

I haven't heard a 'new' rebel song in years...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

I thought it was an important historical watershed; but I have been disappointed before.

A

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

The Mountain Road'

What is it with you and roads?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

They can still sing about leprechauns, sex and drinking!

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

You travel them, Shakey, on the way to your destination...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:14 AM

Naw, you're right, Amos.

... isn't worth the paper its written on...

Let's forget it all then, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

Fair enough. I'll drop the roads thing.

S'pose I should say something serious but I've said it on the other thread.

Anyway it's is a Good Thing

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

With such an outlook amos it's dificult to see how you've been disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

Outlook express?

One word, four letters

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

One letter four words

Dear sir, yours faithfully.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM

Amen?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM

Maybe Amos is remembering Canary Wharf, but I don't think anything like that is going to happen this time round. It's great news. Bravo Adams and McGuinness.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Amos methinks

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM

That was after a 17 month ceasefire, and no statement of 'cessation of the armed struggle'

Comparing apples with motor cars again, Peter K?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

... some people will hang on to anything...

Mailed your MP yet on the Loyalist weapons issue, PK?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM

Comparing apples with motor cars again, Peter K?

To be fair he said "but I don't think anything like that is going to happen this time round. It's great news. Bravo Adams and McGuinness."

Give the guy the benefit eh?

I think we need to look for what we can agree with not which divides, not today at least.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

Refreshing !

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

The news is dead flat here, we know they have retired a long time ago, it`s the drug barons on the loyalist side battling over their patches that is is the problem, and despite muder and secterian attacks on Catholic homes and Churches, being completely ignored by the Brit media.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

Article here (Voice of America News).

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:22 PM

Geeze, guys; I am an outsider, and was simply commenting. I hope with all my heart this is true and permanent. I consider it good news.

Peace,


A

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

We have heard it all before, we want to see some proof that they have really done this. And what has this got to do with Loyalist, it's the IRA we are talking about. But if the IRA really mean it this time then good on them.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM

And for Tir Eoghain

i'll go back to sleep again

ZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

We have heard it all before, we want to see some proof that they have really done this

Do you now?
Anything else?

Be grateful for what you have, Tam.
Remember how lightly y'all got off ;-)

Sorry Amos, couldn't resist it, what with the crossword thread and all of that... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

... to late, he's off again....

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

I have to agree with Amos in that many organizations world wide have made the statement that they'd end armed strugge and circumstances have then caused an aboutface. I too hope it's not the case with the IRA. What would be a giant step toward peace in Ireland--however you all define it (Ireland)--would be for the other faction to lay down its arms also. It would sure make the process easier and give the move by the IRA a greater chance of success. The best to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

This sounds like good news although I would agree with Peace - both sides need to agree, otherwise the violence will still be there.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

That's the problem, you feckin ninny. All you want to talk about is the IRA and never mind what the Loyalist bunch are doing.

I, for one, am put off by these dolts who act like this is some watershed and something new. Have you been paying attention throughout the process????? Once again it is the Republicans who are making the steps for peace, once again the Loyalists and their minions are acting as though they have nothing to do with this. The Republicans have been upholding the peace process in the face of repeated attacks for a number of years.

Good on ya, lads.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

I take that you don't like people that are different to you or hold different views, you are one nasty peice of work.

You still haven't answered the question about what this has to do with the loyalist weapons.

and why don't you become a member instead of being a coward ie guest.

Ach well never mind talking to you is like talking to a sewer full of crap.

I'll go back to sleep now

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM

The Repulicans have been upholding the peace, tell that to the McCartney family

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

This bloody stupid we're behaving like stupid children, let bygones by bygones, and let's forgive and forget eh!

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM

In case you hadn't noticed Tam, it wasn't "the Republicans" that killed McCartney. Were I to hold the British Security forces and the Loyalist factions to the same standard, I could blame most things on "Brits" or "Prods". Your use of that example makes my point.

Having said all of that, good for these folks for once again going the extra mile for peace. What will Paisley and his ilk use for an excuse now?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:29 PM

I was lead to believe that it was the IRA that killed him, are they not republicans?
McCartney (murder victim)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Robert McCartney (1971 – 31 January 2005) was the victim of a murder in Belfast, in Northern Ireland, carried out by members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. He was a father of two and was engaged to be married in June 2005 to his long-term partner. He was a Roman Catholic and lived in the predominantly nationalist Short Strand area of Belfast and was known to be a supporter of Sinn Féin, which is closely linked to the IRA. His killing by IRA members has had extensive political repercussions for Sinn Féin as many people have expressed revulsion to the crime in a way not seen before. Opinion polls, all over Ireland, showed a dip in support for Sinn Fein after the murder, and Sinn Féin lost their council seat in the Short Strand in the recent elections.




Contents [hide]
1 The fight
2 Investigation
3 Political fallout
4 External link



[edit]
The fight
Robert McCartney was involved in a fight in a bar — Magennis's — in May Street, in the centre of Belfast, on the night of 30 January 2005. He was found unconscious with stab wounds in Cromac Street and died in hospital the following morning.

According to Robert's family, the fight arose from his friend Brendan Devine having been accused by members of the IRA of making an insulting gesture or comment to a woman in their company. When Devine refused to accept this or apologise, a brawl began. The IRA men dragged them into Verner Street and beat and stabbed them. Devine also suffered a knife attack, but survived.

It was claimed by the family that the killers issued a threat to all those present not to discuss or report what they had seen. No ambulance was called and the bar was quickly cleaned to destroy forensic evidence. Film from security cameras was removed and destroyed.

[edit]
Investigation
When the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) launched a murder investigation they were met with a "wall of silence", with none of the estimated 72 witnesses to the altercation coming forward with information, although this is not an unusual attitude among nationalists who have mixed views of the new police force. In conversations with family members, many potential witnesses claimed to have been in the pub's toilets at the time of the attacks; this led to the toilets being dubbed as the TARDIS, after the time machine in the television series Doctor Who which is much bigger on the inside than on the outside.

Police carrying out search operations in the nationalist Short Strand and Markets areas of Belfast in connection with the investigation were attacked with stones and missiles. Cars were set on fire and some police officers were injured. Such treatment of the police by young nationalists is in no way unusual in Belfast. Several people, including a senior republican figure, were arrested. Sinn Féin claimed that the investigation was being used as an excuse to disrupt the community and accused the PSNI of heavy-handedness. Over a thousand people attended a vigil in memory of McCartney five days after his murder. A similar number attended his funeral.

McCartney's family were among those who publicly stated their belief that Provisional IRA members were responsible for the silence surrounding the murder, with his sister saying, "their cover-up and their clean-up operation afterwards was meticulous." The IRA admitted this some weeks later and expelled three members. Mark Durkan of the moderate nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party also accused the IRA of orchestrating a cover-up, claiming that the "full force of the IRA has been used to intimidate witnesses and prevent the killers from being brought to justice."




[edit]
Political fallout
However, Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Féin, urged witnesses to come forward to "the family, a solicitor, or any other authoritative or reputable person or body," also saying, "I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans." He suspended seven members of Sinn Féin. This stops short of asking witnesses to contact the police directly with information and this approach is consistent with the long standing position of Sinn Féin and tens of thousands of Irish nationalists who have no confidence in the police in Northern Ireland, whether it be the PSNI or its predecessor the RUC. The usefulness of making witness statements to the victim's family or to a solicitor was derided by the McCartneys and by a prominent lawyer and SDLP politician, Alban Maginness, soon afterwards.

Such reference to the Sinn Féin political agenda in response to what was a passionate plea for justice from Robert's family was seen by some to be insensitive at best and potentially indicative of something much more sinister. One opinion piece on this subject from Trudy Rubin of The Philadelphia Inquirer even asks "Has the IRA `morphed into the mob'?" The McCartney family have remained quite firm that they do not wish to become involved in the long political debate over police sectarianism but that their sole aim is legitimate justice administered through due legal process and this is being denied because witnesses are being intimidated by people connected with the IRA and Sinn Féin.

For their part, the PSNI stated that they did not believe the IRA had sanctioned the killing, and that it was carried out by IRA members independently of the organisation's leadership. They later claimed that a very senior IRA man was involved in the murder. The victim's family shared this assessment, claiming that it was the unnamed senior figure who ordered the killing. Gerry Kelly, a Sinn Féin member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, accepted that witness intimidation had occurred, but like Adams he did not call for witnesses to talk to the PSNI. Instead he encouraged those with information to give it to the Police Ombudsman.

On 16 February the IRA issued a statement denying involvement in the murder and calling on the perpetrators to "take responsibility". McCartney's family welcomed this, but insisted that intimidation and threats had come "from the highest level of Sinn Féin and IRA". Gerry Kelly denied that this had been the case.

The McCartney family has stated that a total of 20 individuals were involved with the murder.

The murder came amidst controversy following the Northern Bank robbery of December 2004, in which £26.5 million was stolen from a bank in Belfast. The belief that this had been carried out by the IRA is widely held, and many lamented that the scandal surrounding alleged IRA involvement in this kind of criminality had overshadowed the scandal surrounding the possibility that its members had killed a man in a pub brawl for no good reason, or had at least tried to cover up the circumstances of his death. The murder and its aftermath resulted in a strong backlash against the IRA in the Short Strand area of East Belfast, a nationalist enclave in an overwhelmingly unionist area. The area is traditionally regarded as strongly republican, due in part to its "siege mentality" and history of attacks by unionists, from which the IRA had defended the community.

On 8 March the IRA issued an unprecedented statement saying that they had made an offer to McCartney's family to shoot the members involved in the murder. The family made it clear that they wanted the people concerned prosecuted, not physically harmed.

On 9 March, the Daily Mail named the following men as three of the four men, all members of the Belfast Brigade, whom the PIRA offered to shoot in retaliation for the murder of Robert McCartney - Jim "Dim" McCormack, Gerard "Jock" Davison and Gerard Montgomery. The Mail stated that McCormack, aged about 42, is the Officer Commanding (OC) of the Belfast Brigade of the IRA. It also stated that Davison, 41, is a current and senior member of the Belfast Brigade, and its former OC. According to the Mail, Montgomery — whom it showed in a crowd photograph — is also a long standing PIRA member, and has acted as a bodyguard to both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. All three men have close ties with Gerry Adams.

The Mail also stated that both McCormack and Montgomery shot and killed UFF members and renowned killers of Catholics Joe Bratty and Raymond Elder in the months running up to the 1994 ceasefire. These murders apparently 'made' them amongst Belfast Republicans, and enshrined their reputations as "hard men".

Virtually the same statements were made in the Irish Daily Mirror and the Irish Times, with only the Daily Mail actually naming the men.

In the days running up to 9th March, Davison had made a number of comments posted in Irish and British newspapers denying all and any involvement in the murder of Robert McCartney.

All five McCartney sisters and his partner expressly rejected the IRA's offer to shoot the men, and again asked that the IRA lift their threats against witnesses to McCartney's murder, allowing them to testify to the PSNI. Their cousin, Gerry Quinn, stated that McCartney's family wanted "justice, not revenge."

Since this time, the sisters of Robert McCartney have maintained an increasingly public campaign for justice (through the legal process) which saw Martin McGuinness make a public pronouncement that the sisters should be careful that they were not being manipulated for political ends (this was reported by many news agencies, including the BBC on 14 March 2005). This was interpreted by some as a veiled threat towards the McCartney family.

The McCartney family travelled to the United States during the 2005 St Patrick's Day celebrations where they were met by US Senators and US President George W. Bush who expressed 100% support in their campaign for justice. Meanwhile Gerry Adams was noticeably shunned by politicians, especially Senator Ted Kennedy, who had previously welcomed Adams in an attempt to assist the Peace Process in Northern Ireland.

On May 5, Terence Davison and James McCormick were remanded in custody, charged with murdering McCartney and attempting to murder Devine respectively. Terence Davison is the uncle of Gerard 'Jock' Davison.

Explain that Big MIck.

Anyway as I say let bygones be bygones.

Forgive and forget eh!

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM

We have heard it all before

When have we heard anything like this before, Tam?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:42 PM

Did you read it before you cut and pasted it, Tam?

But, it is important now not to get any further into this argument. This is a good day for the peace process and puts the ball squarely into the obstructionists court.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM

Guys guys, guys. Everybody take a deeeeeeeep breath. The IRA has offered to lay down its weapons. Maybe we can follow their example.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

Regarding the McCartney murder you refer to the IRA men taking him out kill him. Those involved in this action were not acting as a unit of the Provisional Irish Republican Army, please stop putting it across as if they were. Regarding the statement, many have mixed views about it. But we all have to stand by the leadership's decision. It's a sad time for many tonight, when they recall the loss of loved ones. And that's on all sides. Much thought went into this statement and it's the combined views of all active service units who have been involved in today's outcome for the past two months.It is over make no doubt about that. I watch with interest as the UVF & UDA both said they exist because of the Republican threat through an armed struggle. There is a serious turf war going on at present here between them over control of drug ridden areas. approx 36 families connected to those involved have been put out of their homes in the past eight days.Many may not agree with me, but I feel we had a just cause over the past 35 years. I lived here all my life and can remember in the 1960's catholics not being allowed to own a house, get work or a vote. The British government ingored these basic rights and from that grew a generation that fought for it.I am not going into the debate of, this one died and that one died. We all lost great friends and none of us were without fault. Sad we had to rise to this, but that's the way it was.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Best news I have heard for ages. My fear is that the loyalist faction will now begin the taunts and jeers. Trying to tell people that they have forced the republicans to give up. Trying to say that they have 'won' against the opposition. That they will push and push and push until some poor kid in a republican area has had so much that they 'snap'.

Lets make sure it doesn't happen. Keep up the pressure on the Government. I for one will follow up my letter to Hazel Blears (see the loyalist disarm thread) especialy now she is climbing the ladder in the home office! Make sure that the loyalists not only disarm but follow the peace process in spirit as well as action.

It takes a brave man to admit he was wrong. The IRA have done the bravest thing I have seen them do today. Lets not let the nay-sayers and cowards who want to keep to the old ways have their way.

Good luck to you all.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Yeah, Curator. I just didn't think I should have to take him by the hand. Tam doesn't seem to be able, or willing, to make the distinction between a couple of IRA men committing an act, and an operation by the IRA against a target.

Time to give this a chance, lad/lass. The UVF/UDA folks must be panicked this night. As I said above, the ball is squarely in the obstructionist's court. I am hoping that they don't do what they traditionally have done, and try to sabotage this thing using the pogrom methods they used before.

For the children of the North, I pray this move brings the desired result.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

Perhaps, on a musical and happy note, we can now see Anthony John Clarks wish come true now when he sings

I want to eat at the same table, break the same bread
March down the same streets, hear the same bands
Sing the same songs, say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years.

One of my favourite songs about the troubles:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Thanks gentlemen, no there has also been a lot of thought put into obstruction via any means. Sadly the loyalist people have enough on their plate at present. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:21 PM

Let's agree to disagree.

Up the Republic

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM

I mean the Scottish Republic
as I say let us agree to disagree

Tam.

We could argue forever about this.

So let bygones be bygones, and let both sides get together and talk about peace in Northern Ireland.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

It's a deal. To there and no further.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Would work lads, great to see you two pals.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:55 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM

Good man Dave the Gnome, and fair play to you Brucie!

... and just like Coke...
... It is the real thing..

The Establishment are just going through the last involuntary muscle movements of expiration, and a fella ain't gonna stand over the remains and crow.

Let's sing a new song instead:

Ready Tam?
Tam?

TAMMMMMM?

Ok
H-all together now,
1,2,3,4,

'Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Paisley?
De-comm-iss-ion-ing's begun!
You tell your boys to sit down and think again;
to lay down their swords, and to learn to use a pen.
SO, who do you think you are kidding Mr. Paisley?
The onus now is on the Hun'
Dee dee, dee dee, dee dee, DEE!

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Good night and thank you for listening...