BS: The Debates

Subject: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

McCain already has websites celebrating his victory in the first debate.

Why did Barack agree to ol Miss, the college stomping frounds of McCain. Poor judgment like the Rick Warren fiasco.

First impressions are so important. I saw 2 signs for Obama outside the debate and 200 for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

What websites? Obama has poor judgement?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:29 PM

Ole Miss was the sad site of national furor when the national Guard was called several thousand strong, out to quell a riot of white bigots trying to prevent the admission of one soft-spoken black man named James Meredith.

Tonight, Ole Miss will stand tall in American history by being the site where a single soft-spoken black man will start his ascent to the leadership of untold numbers of more rational humans of all races across the United States.

That's a historical perspective of some importance and a chance for Mississippi to regain her pride and recover from her role in a national disgrace forty odd years ago.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM

That puts a better light on it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

Hear hear

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: harpmolly
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

Well said, as always, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

Ole Miss was the home base of William Faulkner. One man who understood racism to it's core, and could express it better than anyone before or since.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM

I believe in Amurika.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

Ole Miss may not be Obama's "home turf," but he's doing a darn good job there. I don't think he has anything to worry about the venue.
McCain seems flustered, almost every moment of the debate.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

Anybody listening to the present one?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: LilyFestre
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM

Joe,

   Agreed.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Beer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:34 PM

"Go Obama Go"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:39 PM

An old favorite of the glory days of Ole Miss................


ALMA MATER
(words by Michael McWhinney, Music by Jerry Powell)

Bright college years, we sing to thee, the golden years that quickly flee
Oh, shining moments of our youth, where we can seek the truth.
May what we learn midst toil and strife
Direct our footsteps throughout life
No man can ask for more than this, we sing to thee, Ole Miss

*We bow our heads, we give thee thanks, we'll ne'er forget, alas,
Those teargas raids, the army tanks, those riots after class
The National Guard, the barricades where we shared our first kiss
The senior prom, the hand grenades, we're going to miss Ol' Miss

We'll miss the cafeteria
That's crawling in wisteria
We'll miss the clasrooms where we learned,
And effigies we burned
My girl was only seventeen when she was chosen riot queen
These memories we'll ne'er forget, God bless thee Ross Barnett

We're going to miss Ol' Miss
Glory, glory, what a heck of a time we had
We're going to miss Ol' Miss

{*tune: America the Beautiful
the rest of the tune is a varation of "Bright College Years"
from The Mitchell Trio songbook}




Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:57 PM

I was impressed with both men; their comments and remarks were predominantly substantive.

More than Obama, John McCain resorted to continuous slashes at his opponents, couching many of his remarks in ad hominem terms. But both men spoke well. McCain was the frostier of the two, but neither of them was brilliantly humane or warm.

McCain's familiarity with the world as a puzzle of threats and military maneuvers contributed strongly to his various positions, but my sense was that he overplayed the weary-soldier-from-endless-war card. Obama was stronger in balancing the needs of the nation economically alongside of the military needs of the nation.

McCain asserted a lot of military truisms for which I do not believe there is as much truth as he would like to pretend, and used them to create the vision of a dangerous world riddled with threats which he is uniquely qualified to deal with.

Obama, in contrast, was fully aware of the situations John referred to, spoke about them knowledgeably, but declined to compound them into a picture of a world fraught only with danger. As such, he was much stronger in implications of opportunity for constructive change.

It was a good tug of war, and both men carried themselves with intelligence and dignity. Obama stayed very much down to earth and McCain only flubbed once, in a minor way, when talking about Ahmadinajad.

I will be most interested to see the feedback across the country in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: heric
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:14 PM

Obama kept interrupting McCain, who never did the same.

McCain almost never looked at Obama, especially when Lehrer told him to. One CNN talking head said you can tell that there is something about Obama that McCain just doesn't like.

Obama and I both got a good laugh when McCain compared him to Bush in his inflexibility. That was a godd line.

I scored it as a tie. McCain needed a win.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:16 PM

I saw the debate. McCain did what he set out to do--portray Obama as the neophyte in foreign policy. Obama held his own in general--especially pointing out that Afghanistan and Pakistan, not Iraq, are where the focus of any "war on terror" should be, and pointing out that we need to talk with our adversaries, not just our friends.

Obama could have hit McCain on his "League of Democracies" idea--missed an opportunity to do so-- any "League" of that sort is not likely to mean any counterweight to Putin's Russia as long as European energy needs remain what they are.   Obama should have pointed out that McCain, the elder statesman, is naive to think his "League" would have any weight--or even unity--perhaps drawing a parallel to the other well-known League--of Nations.

But McCain never blew up, as had been a possibility--in fact he remained quite calm by and large, while conveying experience and gravitas. Anybody seeking a steady hand at the tiller will likely be impressed with McCain.

Except for the section on the economic crisis. Obama nailed McCain as being an integral part of the problem--which has been building for quite a while. Too bad he didn't cite McCain's longtime good buddy, Phil Gramm and his wonderful contributions.

In any debate centering on domestic issues, the shoe will be on the other foot. And that is where the focus will be for most voters.

All in all, Obama is lucky that foreign policy will very likely take a back seat to domestic issues--and there McCain has big problems.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

I think you're right there, Ron. Heric, the thing about Obama's "interrupting" was that it frequently occurred when Obama had started to reply to a point, and John then kept talking right through him. It was more of a reciprocal interrupt if anything.

I think Obama had more style, looked less nervous, but John held his place well and bulled his way through.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Beer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

Obama I feel lost an opportunity to strike hard but didn't. But maybe it was planned that he shouldn't. I was disappointed. Both were to passive.
Beer(adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:32 AM

I thought McCain overdid the condescension towards Obama; you could almost see him thinking, "Oh, you stupid, young whippersnapper, you!" He also lied about Obama. I was glad Obama called him on it and pointed out "John, you were wrong" on the points about the Iraq war and all. I was really pleased with how Obama came across.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:02 AM

Kat: Happy you were so pleased with the performance of your candidate's performance. I thought, on the other hand, Obama came across as a overly ambitious inexperienced politician who believes that all you have to do is promise impossible deliveries of programs to gullible people that should know better.

McCain ate his lunch.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:20 AM

Which traditional values would those be then... empire, resource wars, torture, and gutting the Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:03 AM

They would be traditional values like...militarism, zenophobia, paranoia, grandiosity, imperialism, moral blindness, stratified corruption, greed, excess, jingoism, moronic simplicity...that sort of thing.

I agree that if America votes for the "traditional values" that Americans are most familiar with instead of something newer and much wiser they will elect John McCain. That won't be good, but it would be reasonably unsurprising as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:16 AM

Please don't try to twist it. The traditional values that has made America the country it is today. So what exactly are you saying ? Elect a novelty into the Oval Office ? Dump arms ? Hug ghetto brothers ? Charge National Guard vets over what happened in Kent State ?

Clearly you fear a republican victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Sheesh. Traditional values? No contest. Look at the record.

I was impressed by both men in the sense that both of them came off well- neither blew up, neither lost their focus. (I would say, though, that McCain said things he didn't really believe while it seemed to me that everything Obama said he meant.)

To me, Obama didn't sag anywhere but McCain surged (no pun intended) when it came to foreign matters. Not his wisdom- because if it was there, it did not show - but his long history of familiarity with trouble spots, personalities and outcomes. Obama couldn't match that but he, I thought, did very well.

As NBC said, probably those who favor McCain think that he 'won', those who favor Obama think that he won. I'll be very interested in the next debate. (Not to mention, the VP debate. snort)

What impressed me most was the change in Jim Lehrer. In contrast to last election when he was bland, low key and disengaged, tonight he was animated and on top of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM

McCain awaited the "age digs" which never came, these won the election for Regan back in the 80's.

McCain is a war hero and also suffered skin cancer, attacks on the "older" man would not go down well with the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM

The traditional values that have made the US the country that it is today are exploitation, genocide, theft of resources in other countries, slavery, waging wars against other countries (both overt as well as covert) for control of resources, raping and pillaging the environment - these are the traditional values that have made the country what it is today.

We need some new traditions and values.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:11 AM

With the drama leading up to it, it was about a C+ for political street theater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

Well, it was a civil debate - no fireworks, and no serious flubs. It let the people see the candidates and their views, and not be distracted by the flim-flam. I was impressed by the performance of both candidates.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Carol please, it's not 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

I think I'd agree with GUEST,Justin Urqhart's post of 27 Sep 08 - 02:16 AM, overall.

Obama's constant interruptions were annoying, but they did not prevent McCain putting his points across.

Obama's tactic/strategy (He doesn't know the difference) seems to be and have been to have been too busy attacking George W Bush to realise exactly what has been going on and why things have been done the way they have. John McCain touched on it in a reference to agreement between Admiral Mullen, General Petraeus, Osama bin Laden, and himself regarding the importance of the fight against terror in Iraq.

Afganistan and the assistance given to the Northern Alliance to sweep the Taleban from power was in direct response to an attack on American soil by an international terrorist group based in Afghanistan - To all those left wingers who chatter away about it - there was never a US Invasion of Afghanistan and once the Taleban had been swept from power the matter has been in the hands of the United Nations Security Council.

Iraq - In the wake of 9/11 Iraq was identified as the nation that posed the greatest threat to the United States of America. This evaluation and assessment was undertaken independent of the Bush administration by Congress and the US Security Services (No surprise they'd done the same thing and come to the same conclusion four years before for the Clinton administration).

By December 2001 neither Afghanistan, or anybody in the country was in a position to threaten the United States of America or anybody else. Experts advising Congress and all 19 intelligence and security agencies in America concluded that Iraq posed a threat and that threat had to be erradicated. The problem and the USA's concerns were taken to the UN Security Council, things looked good for a while, then they dropped the ball. America couldn't, and didn't, Bush had told them as plainly as possible from the outset, "Either you act to resolve what we see as being legitimate concerns, or we will, we have no choice".

Obama completely fluffed it in attempting to explain his withdrawal "strategy" for Iraq - it still amounts to a staged withdrawal irrespective of conditions on the ground, or advice from Commanders on the scene - i.e. the precipitous withdrawal that everybody is saying would be disasterous for all concerned.

Obama came out with the amazing statement about "The war on terror started in Afghanistan, should have been fought in Afghanistan and should end in Afghanistan". Utter nonsense "The War On Terror" is not a fight associated with one particular group, if he doesn't know it yet, the man should be appraised of the fact that "terrorist groups" like mushrooms spring to life overnight, like one-post Guest's on mudcat. Obama also misses the point that the "war" in Afghanistan now has been pushed towards the tribal areas of Pakistan and that is where the fight against terrorism in the area will be fought - Obama's solution is to attack Pakistan, McCain's is to work with the Government of Pakistan and work out a mechanism to allow cross-border co-operation - According to BBC reports from yesterday the newly elected President and Government of Pakistan are beginning to take concerted action against militants within the tribal areas.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

Our values haven't changed significantly since 1967. We're still doing the same things around the world now that we were doing back then.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:35 AM

Fact checking the debate...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26910327#26910327

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

yeh and you're doing them broke.....

Whoever got you into this situation economically has some explaining to do.

Probably a traditional idiot, which will get Justin's tradtional vote.

strange combination ...Urqhart a highland warrior's name. Justin's an interior designer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

The current situation is down to estate loans being given out too freely. Bank reclaims are unpopular with government.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

Well, I had a gig last night but it was over right as the debates were beginning so I missed the first 12 or so minutes but listened to it on the car radio and then on the TV when I got home and my impression is that it didn't change too many minds... Those who support McCain probably think he did better and those, like myself, who support Obama think he did better but...

...with that said, I was surprised to read this morning that polls indicate that Obama won the debate...

I was glad to hear Obama say several times "That's not true, John"... I considered those counterpunches to be body shots that may not look impressive but take a slow toll... I hope Obama will continue to use that phrase in future debates... It's a polite way of calling McCain on his obvious lies...

Now for the fun debate: Biden v. Ms. Sarah!!! Yazzir, that one is gonna be fun to watch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

Heiner's Bakery makes three diet breads, Whole wheat, Vegetable fiber Wheat, and plain white. As diet breads, they're okay but most all diet breads are pretty bland as bread goes. Of the three only the Whole Wheat has any distinguishable taste.

In this debate, Plain White met Vegetable Fiber Wheat.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

How many of us make over 250 k per year?

I don't think either man hit a home run, but there will always be those who believe the right wing lies about O'Bama raising taxes.He even tried to push it with O'Bama standing right there!I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth.

McCain didn't blow up, but he was obviously seething and that "shit eating grin" couldn't mask it either.

Let's look at the truth for a minute. This title, "War Hero". John McCain flew half way around the world and bombed the piss out of a country (including women and children)that had not done a damn thing to us. They shot him down, exactly what we would do, and put him in prison, exactly what we would do, when they could have simply beheaded him.
He languished in that hell hole for over 5 years and refused to cooperate with the "enemy" That, I honor him for; but, war hero? I don't get it.I also don't get how that qualifies him to be president.Well, other than the fact that this "Gingoism" appeals to the ignorant NRA redneck types.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: RangerSteve
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

For the first question, both candidates spent a couple of minutes not answering the question. Jim Lehrer had to remind them what the question was. Unfortunately, that's exactly what I expected would happen. I lost interest after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:53 AM

"all 19 intelligence and security agencies..."

Big fat deal.

It was not established then that a US massive attack on Iraq was the way to solve the danger seen.


And it still is not.

Spare us your pathetic attempt at justification, yet again, of an unnecessary war, entered into by means of a despicable propaganda campaign that all thinking beings can easily see now.

And as for McCain using Iraq as a model for Afghanistan, that dog obviously won't hunt. Main problem in Afghanistan is the lack of any good alternative to the drug-based economy.   Our enemies have found that rather than try to stamp out the drugs, it's better to exploit the situation. No Sunni "Awakening" is possible--the opposition is not stupid enough, a la Iraq, to alienate their own supporters by a thuggish "Puritanism".   Their vicious---and stupid--behavior in Iraq, not any so-called "Surge", is the main reason for the improvement there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

Yeah, I gotta agree, Capt'n... McCain did come off as purdy pissed off... One of the late campaign themes that Obama is nurturing is about "temperment" and John McCain played right into that theme...

BTW, the poll I referred to is a CNN poll which has it 51-38 in Obama's favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

I watched. No surprises. Each did a fairly good job of reiterating his views. No winner.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

Here's some excerpts from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/26/233010/756/209/612019

CNN: Polls Say Obama Won, Disaster for McCain
by EmperorHadrian
Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 08:57:55 PM PDT

"Somehow, CNN has already conducted an actual phone poll which shows that voters overwhelmingly think Obama won the debate. Apparently, CBS just released a poll with a similar result. One CNN pundit (David Gergen) implied that these numbers, if correct, may be a fatal disastor for John McCain's campaign...

David Gergen said:

I cannot emphisize how important I think these numbers are, because this is a pivotal night for John McCain. He needed to take this night, and if these polls are right, that is a major deal in this election, because this is his home turf, because Barack Obama is the younger man, and the issue is 'can the younger man hold his own with the older guy with more experience'. Thats what John Kennedy did in 1960, because that won the debate that drove the election and elected him, because he held his own.

I don't know who won or lost, but because I cannot say that McCain definately won, I have to say that ultimately it is a loss for McCain. He is behind in the polls, and is falling further behind. Without a big win, he loses one of his last chances, maybe the last chance, to cut Obama's lead. And if he can't win tonight, when is he going to win?

Update: CNN just released some internals from their poll which showed that Obama won the debate. 48% of voters 50 and older thought Obama won, but only 40% thought McCain won. This, of course, is McCain's base. Men gave McCain a margin of only 3%, and women gave Obama a margin of about 20%. More horrible news for McCain. John King made the point that it is these people (50 and older) who are looking at their 401K's, which they spent decades building up, only to see everything now gone"...

-snip-

It appears that Senator Obama's debating strategy was to reassure the undecided voters not only that he knows about foreign policy, but also that he is not threatening. CNN polls, Halperin, and other commentors confirm that the majority of undecided viewers thought that Obama was calm, knowledgable, and presidential and McCain was much less so.

Imo, Senator McCain's rude, condescending body language coupled with his rambling comments reinforced the image of an old, tired, mean spirited man, and helped him lose this debate.

Next up-Sarah Palin vs Joe Biden. And, somehow, I don't see that going very well for the McCain-Palin camp.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:19 AM

"Main problem in Afghanistan is the lack of any good alternative to the drug-based economy."

                Yes, there is an alternative. Simply legalize drugs in the western democracies, the stuff won't have any value, and the Afghani economy will collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Azizi (and David Gergen) makes the excellent point that since this election is in large part a referendum on Obama, he had to show that he knew about foreign policy--and that his policies were not so wild as to threaten the US.

And that in this debate, he accomplished both of those goals.

What's more, even if McCain had edged out Obama in this one, the focus of the US voter is on the US economy--and there, as I said, McCain has big problems. Especially his record of supporting deregulation--cue the Gramm citations, especially "nation of whiners"--will haunt him.

McCain was Gramm's campaign chairman in Gramm's 1996 presidential bid--they've been tight for a long time.

And it's their longterm philosophy of "less government", though the WSJ editorial page loves it-- which will turn off the US voter. McCain's stance of born-again populist is not convincing to the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:48 AM

Bumper sticker: McCAIN IS NO ABEL

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM

McCain did what he set out to do--portray Obama as the neophyte in foreign policy.

No. But he was trying a swift boat touch, continuing his mantra "Obama doesn't understand. . ." even though Obama understands perfectly well. I suppose it was too much to hope that Obama could conclude by asking "And did Karl tell you to repeat the same tired but inaccurate phrase over and over, hoping to create a sound bite?" That's what they were trying for, a sound bite, something that would live in news broadcasts for the next six weeks without reference to the Truth.

But this debate was remarkably free of the grandstanding that was typical of so many other presidential "debates" that played lip service to the forum type. They actually tried to do a debate--more power to both of them for that. They treated the American public like they have brains in their heads.


GUEST,Justin Urqhart said
Please don't try to twist it. The traditional values that has made America the country it is today. So what exactly are you saying ? Elect a novelty into the Oval Office ? Dump arms ? Hug ghetto brothers ? Charge National Guard vets over what happened in Kent State ?

You should have listened to Bill Moyers Journal after the debate. He replayed an August 15 discussion with Andrew Bacevich--we are an economy of excess, of consumers on a scale not seen before in the entire history of the world. Not something to be proud of or want to maintain. Anyway, after the week Dubya spent trying to fund his golden parachute, any plans for the future either candidate had toward establishing universal health care or any kind of minimal socal good may go out the door. Bush is leaving such a steaming hot pile of shit for the next president to clean up that it boggles the mind that eight years will begin to be enough to start the job.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

It was mosty Theatre with actors upon a stage, yes?

Remarkably it was a tie when you remove factors such as the truth and ideology from the equation.

Touched upon by Amos, when McCain refers to dead US troops as dieing in vain, when and if a conflict does not end in unconditional surrender, it is a terrible thing to say and a worse thing to believe.

I pointed out this absurdity 6 years ago in a picture I made of a war memorial with the inscription "No one dies in vain as long as war is endless". In a war against terrorism there can never be an unconditional surender, there is no government to sign those terms as Japan did aboard a US battleship.
Fortunatly Obama pointed this out.

Barack however did not go for the jugular on veterans voting records or the economic suffering of real people.

Best moment for John (the expression of his sincere love for his fellow veterans)

Barack's best moment (You were Wrong...wrong...wrong)


it was not right for Barack to accuse John of not wanting to meet the Prime Misnister of Spain. John clearly confused the name of the Spainish official with Latin American countries. That was an artificial gotcha. And Barack erred on the side of statemanship than too many gotcha attempts. Obama protrayed respect while McCain portrayed elite egalitarian indignation.


999999999999999999999999999999111111111111111111111111 111111111111111


Something no one else may have noticed - BUT AT THE VERY END - when the candidates seperate to kiss their wives Obama broke a choreographed protocol. They both walked the 60 feet across the stage to shake hads with John and Cindy... OMG   McCain was livid afterward and was gesturing with bith hands at his manager for letting this Happen!

You see McCain made eye contact only once upon the initial handshake prior to te debate...after that he did not look at Barack even once.
Not during the debate and wierdly not even when they shook hands immediatly after the debate. When Mr&Mrs Obama strolled all the way over to the McCains, the theatre of Barack being the one to reach across was cinched while John was squirming to get away. Again when all four shook hands, McCain did not look at the Obamas.

Maybe you need a wide screen TV but McCain was really miffed at his female manager for letting this happen.

As theatre goes it was a small thing but emotionally albeit subliminally significant to a viewer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

Yeah, I guess if the goal for Obama was to hanf tough and not allow McCain to steal a voctory then it was a successful night for Obama...

As I have pointed out, "temperment" is the quality that Obama has been slowly developing in his campaign and McCain, though he tried his best to not blow up, played right into Obama's trap with his condescending mannerisms...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM

SRS--It's a matter of pereception. I believe McCain did establish that he knows more about foreign policy than Obama. But Obama established that he does know quite a bit--and that he was right whether the Iraq war was justified, and McCain was wrong. And that we should talk to enemies as well as friends.

As to who "won", it was not a clear victory for either.   YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

Justin:

I was in the National Guard at the time of Kent State shootings. It was a massive breakdown of command and control and both a strategic and tactical disaster. It has been used for years by the National Guard during riot control training as a TRULY good Awful Example.

Those involved WERE investigated and tried and found not guilty (not, please note, "innocent") at the time in an atmosphere of "they got what they deserved!" Three years later, when I was LIVING two minutes from Kent State, there was embarrassment over the verdict.

It is not the rank-and-file who should have been tried, but the leadership for the multiple failures involved.

I shan't discuss this further, but I DAMNED well wanted to set the record straight.