BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church

Subject: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Some highly intelligent thoughts on this subject. This was recorded last year, I believe..before the pope's very recent visit to the UK.


Part 1

Part Two

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM

Interesting discussion, when you include the two other folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:10 PM

Very interesting. Thanks so much for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM

And he's so right, thanks for the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:11 AM

Stephen Fry looked very emotional at the end of the second video. It clearly meant a lot to him to say those things and no doubt a lot also to many other people including me.

He has a way of holding an audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

I thought so, too, eanjay and Bonzo3legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Wonderful. Thanks for the 'heads up'.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:52 PM

I mainly know Stephe Fry through his presence on the BBC's Last Chance to See, during which his co-presenter, Mark Carwardine, came across as a much more polite competent person - even though he is more used to being behind a camera.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

He's a good debater, and a sincere one. But it's important to remember that a debate is a performance.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:10 PM

Debate is an art. I was very impressed with his speaking and couldn't help but agree with everything he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:19 PM

That was a brilliant speech. I have seldom heard such a fine piece of oratory, and the man obviously cares deeply about what he is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM

He's an 'aggressive secularist' - burn him!

Oh no, we can't do that any more - drat!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

"He's an 'aggressive secularist' - burn him!"
Wring thread....that's pirate talk:)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

He's an 'aggressive secularist' .

Except that he isn't, as even a superficial skim through his speech indicates. Unlike his fellow debater Christopher Hitchens, who is.   Which makes Stephen Fry a much more effective debater.

Maybe it might made for a better debate if it had been George Galloway instead of Ann Widdecombe...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:23 PM

I was going to start another thread for this one, but thought I'd better put it in here. Took me an age to locate this, as it's been removed from Youtube now, but I thought I'd share this programme.

It's Stephen Fry's documentary about depression, following his own diagnosis, where he opens up the whole world of manic depression.

The Secret Life of a Manic Depressive

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Martha Burns
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM

What an impressive man! I've known and loved him as Jeeves, but never knew this other side. Wonderful speech, wonderful mind. Thanks very much for sharing!
P.S. Did you happen to notice that he barely looked at his text the whole time he spoke? What a memory, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Micca
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 03:03 AM

For another (and interestingly different) side of Mr Fry try his book on how to write Poetry " The Ode Less travelled" it is quirky, funny, but FULL of useful suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:05 AM

SF is something of a national treasure, and it is no surprise to me that he makes such good sense on this subject.

He has written extensively in several forms, but I feel he is best in brief doses, journalism rather than novels. Paperweight is a collection of his short writings over several years for various purposes, which I can recommend with some pleasure. I believe he has more recently produced a further collection, but I have yet to read it.

His voice as a recorder of audio books is also well worth seeking out imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:38 AM

McGrath,

It would be interesting to know if the Catholic Church finds Mr Fry's particular brand of secularism to be 'aggressive' or not. His attack on the CC's attitude towards sex seemed to be pretty aggressive to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:54 AM

He has written extensively in several forms, but I feel he is best in brief doses

This brief enough for you? http://twitter.com/STEPHENFRY

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM

I found no trace of aggression in the speech. Neither did I find it was over biased towards 'secularism', in fact Stephen Fry said he had no issue with Catholics or any other faith and belief systems. He spoke on the motion that the Catholic Church (as an institution) was not a force for good as its dogmas had historically and currently caused harm to individuals or groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:09 AM

Interesting. At least at the beginning, there's nothing I can disagree with. I especially liked this:

It's also very important to me as it happens that I have my own beliefs. They are a belief in the Enlightenment, a belief in the eternal adventure of trying to discover moral truth in the world. Discover: it's a terribly important word to which we might return.

...but then he goes to extremes, and I can't agree.
Fry says the Catholic Church is obsessed with sex, but yet I've rarely heard mention of sex from the pulpit. He talks of selling art and giving the proceeds to the poor, but neglects to say that this is generally religious art.

In many ways, I agree with Fry completely, and the issues he addresses have been addressed by intellectuals within the Catholic Church. There is no doubt that there is need for reform within the Catholic Church and that much evil has been wrought by the institutional church. I guess the main flaw that I see in Fry's presentation is his assumption that the "institutional church," the power structure within the Catholic Church, is the essence of the Catholic Church. I disagree. I have found that the essence of any institution is not in its leadership or its organizational structure, which are most often corrupt and confused. The essence of any organization, including the Catholic Church, is the people.
I think we put too much faith in leadership and structures, and we place too much blame on leadership and structures. The Catholic faith is in the people. The leadership and structures exist only to serve - not that leaders understand that very often.

I've been a Catholic all my life, and the Catholic faith is part of who I am. For most of my life, I have been extremely annoyed (or worse) at the "institutional church" - but for me, that's not the Catholic Church - that's just the authority structure, which has very little relevance to my day-to-day life as a Catholic. To me, what's far more relevant is the nun who gives me a warm, welcoming hug every time I see her. To me, what's far more relevant are the people I see every week at Mass, people who care about me and help make my life rich and full.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM

Mrs. Duck says Fry "spoke on the motion that the Catholic Church (as an institution) was not a force for good as its dogmas had historically and currently caused harm to individuals or groups."

I would submit that the dogmas (official teachings of the Catholic Church) are generally benign - and if not, at least they're innocuous. The practices of the power structure of the Catholic Church (and, indeed, of most every organization) are another matter, and seem to be dominated by power issues rather than by what is at the essence of the organization.

Take a close look at any organization that has an effect on your life. Is it the leadership and authority structure of the organization that affects you, or is it the people in that organization who have direct contact with you?

I submit that for most Catholics, Rome is unimportant. If you want to understand how the Catholic faith affects Catholics, you have to look at the life within individual parishes - not at the power structure. The power structure, for the most part, is barely relevant. It's individuals that count.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:00 AM

Catholic apologists are akin to Neo-Nazi apologists, maybe worse given the tenure of the Catholic Reich which ensures the suppression of The Enlightenment will continue unabated for some centuries yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:12 AM

If "the Enlightenment" is in trouble I can't really see that that is the doing of us Neo-Nazis (or worse) who collectively make up the Catholic Church...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

I would revise his statements entirely and just do a generic all churches in general. The Catholic church gets all the press because it is the oldest and largest but one only has to look at the others to see the mess is not confined to one flavor. Until Christians get back to God and not churches it will continue even if it didn't exist at all. They all have more then their share because they are run by people and people want power and it all turns ugly.

Joe is right, you don't make general statements, there are many good people in the Catholic church. JOE is one of them .. and like most Catholics we could care a hoot about Rome. Well it was a nice place to visit and I liked the art.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:33 AM

case in point, it ain't limited to the Catholic church
church of England

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

One of the points that Stephen Fry was making was about the restrictions put on people by their faith and the impact of those restrictions. Clearly not everyone of that faith adheres to those restrictions but some people feel they must.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:23 AM

As it happens, I agree with Stephen Fry on every point, but I agree with Joe too. However, it is obvious to most people that the management structure of the Catholic church has for far too long been allowed to misrepresent the actual views of most of its community. Most Catholics I know find the idea of taking guidance on sexual ethics from an octaganarian celibate as ridiculous as I do. The hardest criticism I can make of most Catholics is that for centuries they have allowed the management of their church to become seen as a career ladder for the sexually non-functionl or in some cases the sexually disfunctional. In real life, most Catholics, as do Christians in general, try to live a life inspired by the teachings of a Nazarene carpenter. Fry and Hitchen are attacking an absurd institution and set of dogmas. The more absurd pronouncements of that institution are not found in the bible I read. On a personal level, I have found most monks I have met to be helpful, polite and fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM

eanjay's comment two posts back reminds me of a small, but I think relevant, experience of my own, which I found at the time both amusing and thought-provoking.

I was teaching in the 1960s in a secondary school. At school lunch one Friday, one of the boys on my table went to the cooks to get his specially provided fish lunch. "You do know, John," I said to him, "that the Pope has said you don't have to eat fish on Friday any more?"

"Never mind the Pope, sir," he replied with a grin; "it's my mum!"

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM

On the one hand, the Catholic Church (and many of the other Christian churches) have a terrible historical record of oppression and various crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, there are many extremely good and sincere people within those churches, people who do help others, and Fry did take notice of that in his excellent speech. He is aware of it, and he is not attacking individual people of faith, nor is he attacking Jesus, nor is he attacking the Bible, he is attacking a dogmatic, corrupt church hierarchy and tradition. It's the power structure and dogma he is criticizing, not the membership.

As such, I find his comments on the subject very apt. It was interesting to see that the religious personage on the panel (the black man) did clap his hands at the end of the speech.

By gosh, it's good to see someone talk that intelligently for a change, and at length without being interrupted!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

As Iam at present in a God-forsaken land that hasn't yet had the wit to forsake Him in return (Bosnia) I haven't yet seen the debate. But a couple of points have been made here that deserve to be challenged.

First olddude in his assertion that the Catholic church gets all the bad press. It doesn't get a fraction of the stick dished out to the Islamic church.

Second, Joe's usual defence that a church is not its hierarchy but its people still doesn't work for the Catholic church. The views of its hierarchy (a hierarchy which in my view most certainly HAS been obsessed with sex (or at least pre-occupied) have wrought great harm on many lives, not least in Africa, often through the manipulation and exploitation of the more vulnerable among its people. Those thinkers and intellectuals within the church who know its behaviour is wrong (I would say morally corrupt) can't say "Not me" unless they are openly applying their efforts towards ending the abuses - starting perhaps with the desperately urgent question of the church's attitude to protected sex in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

The human race has "a terrible historical record of oppression and various crimes against humanity."
..........................................

The name of "the black man" is John Onaiyekan, and he is Archbishop of Abuja and President of the Christian Association of Nigeria.
......................

Agreed about it being good to see a discussion about an isssue where people have serious disagreements, but they in which they listen to each other and don't insult each other. We should try to do it that way here more often.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:34 AM

And I agree with nearly everything he said. His speech was sincere and was accurate IMO. My only comment is it happens everywhere anymore Catholic and non Catholic churches ... and it is sad . One is better off without any leaders and without any buildings .. works for me lately although I freely admit I will attend when the mood hits me but I see God everywhere and not in one building.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

So we'd be better off with just shopping malls in our cities?

Though of course if it's a matter of "without any buildings" there wouldn't be any cities either...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:01 AM

Right on, olddude. One doesn't need leaders, big buildings, or a set of rules and dogma to find spiritual comfort and inspiration. If you can't find it on your own, how will you ever know it's real?

McGrath, you are quite correct about the human race. Not only our religious institutions, but our business institutions and our political institutions and our military institutions have brought great oppression and abuse down on both humanity and Nature. None of them are above criticism. All of them have also done some good. One needs to look at the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM

"on your own" - but we aren't "on our own".

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:48 AM

McGrath, I think possibly you are misunderstanding me (or maybe I'm misunderstading you?" When I said "find it on your own", I meant to find something by direct experience rather than simply on the word of another human being. What other people say is often worth listening to, but it's not the final authority. You can only know for sure by your own direct experience.

In any case, I didn't mean that there's "nothing out there" with which you can make spiritual contact. I have no basis for saying that there is nothing like that out there, and if I did say so, it would be a dogmatic act of faith on my part! ;-) (I actually DO think there is something out there (and in here), but I wouldn't attempt to define it...)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: MAG
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM

We've probably beaten this to death for as much as it's worth;
I would agree that all rigid top-down organizations which do not allow questioning authority are prone to the types of abuse discussed here and elsewhere.

I would also like to point out that the Catholic Workers newsletter brought up the seriousness and prevalence of child sexual abuse decades before it hit the news bigtime, and that it was dealt with by silence, denial, and blaming the victim.

I also remember British feminists at a certain border throwing condoms to their sisters jumping for them on the other side.

kudos to Mr. Fry for bringing up our right to control our own bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM

Not really a misunderstanding, Little Hawk - my point was, we aren't just individuals - in a phrase found both in the Epistles of St Paul and in the Koran, we are "members one of another". Collective worship of one sort or another is a natural expression of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

I agree with you, McGrath. To realize that is to enable both empathy and compassion. I have found the greatest happiness in life through close relationship with others (and also...the greatest challenges).

The fact that people need to experience what you term "collective worship" can be seen in their devotion not only to various religious concepts, but also in their devotion to nations, political parties, football teams, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:50 AM

It's interesting to look at the result of the debate. An entry poll gave:

678       for the motion
1102    against
346       undecided

Clearly, the Archbishop and Anne Widdecombe had their work cut out as they not only had to win over the "don't know"s but also had to convert some of the unbelievers if they were to win.

After the debate, this had changed to:

268       for the motion
11876    against
34       undecided

(Some must have arrived late as the totals are not the same)

The landslide swing away from the proposal was due, in part, to the lack of credible argument for the motion, particularly from the Archbishop who seemed to take it as a given that they would win and therefore made no real effort. But above all, it was the clear, factual, well argued case put forward by Stephen Fry that won the day.

Somewhere up above, McGrath posted:
……… But it's important to remember that a debate is a performance
A good singer still needs a good song.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM

In theory at least you should vote on a debate according to the quality of the debating rather than according to your own views about the issue being debated. Rather like being on a jury.

11,876? Rather a lot of late arrivals...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:09 AM

"I submit that for most Catholics, Rome is unimportant"

Maybe when it comes to matters that effect local followers personal daily lives. But, I submit that on broader RC issues, the Rome based structure gets its power from support of the local church and it's members.

If one belongs to an orghanization and do not object, in any meaningful way, to wrongs that are committed,I see these you as being in league with those in positions of power, who do, advocate, allow or encouraging these wrongs.

Being appologists for clear wrongs puts one a few steps closer to the bad guys, as it enables additional wrongs (and, most of them, if not all, are guys).

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM

I suspect this is a tip of the iceberg when it comes to Vatican loot.


Vatican loot

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM

An updated story on the Vatican bank: Should the Vatican bank should be above the laws that govern other banks? Maybe a claim could be made that Peter said it should be so?

"The Italian bishops' conference newspaper Avvenire called the probe 'offensive and inexplicable'. The probe risks straining relations between the Vatican and Italian authorities, especially over the issue of sovereignty and jurisdiction"


http://sify.com/news/vatican-defends-its-bankers-in-money-laundering-probe-news-international-kjxpOdbhabf.html

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:23 AM

Sorry, the link:

http://sify.com/news/vatican-defends-its-bankers-in-money-laundering-probe-news-international-kjxpOdbhabf.html

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM

Very interesting. Yes, I agree with everything he says, but I'm sure many Catholics do. and in Australia, I note that Catholics have been at the forefront of helping refugees, prisoners, AIDs survivors and many marginalised people. It's clear that apart from all the institutional problems, Catholics have a sense of compassion that they are willing to put into action, where many others just spout words.

While I'm not a Christian, I greatly respect the social justice movements (including unions) that have evolved out of groups of people inspired by Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM

The thing that's important for most people who belong to any church is their own personal connection to that church through their own personal history....and that is where their affection for the church stems from. If their own experiences in the church have been, for them, positive ones...then they will see the church in a positive light.

When they are defending the church, they are not so much defending its doctrines or its dogma in most cases as they are simply defending their own past.

Having said that, many Catholics are kind and compassionate people who DO good in the world...regardless of the abuses that have been committed by the Catholic Church.

It works much the same way with patriotism to a nation...even when that nation commits wrongs against other nations. People naturally will defend the various cultural foundations they grew up standing upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:54 AM

"It works much the same way with patriotism to a nation...even when that nation commits wrongs against other nations. People naturally will defend the various cultural foundations they grew up standing upon"

No one that I have seen has ever suggested on Mudcat that there are not good people in the RC church, doing good things...so, I don't know why this has to keep coming up in every discussion, as it only diverts one from another discussion...possibly it is like the Seinfield segment on gayism "not that there is anything wrong with that"

I disagree that (in the example given by LH) that "people"... which seems to be presented as all people... do not critise their government when wrongs are being done or endorsed. There are many cases, the Vietnam war, for example, where patriotic USA people, who believe in the US government foundations, actively came forward and said that wrongs were being committed and should stop. Yes, a few people (appoligists) tried to say that statistically, USA wrongs were no greater than the agerage wrongs committed by other nations.....as the attempt used by many main stream RCs in the sex abuse cases.