BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 09:02 AM

I've asked this before. What is the leadership of the RC church..the leader(s) in Rome, who claim to steer the church (and also Christianity) representing Christ through Peter... Each within the flock who claim to be RC,those with many different RC views (some convenient, others not) dedication and practices around the world..The priests and bishops, who claim to represent the church locally. Joe seems to say it's the individual and the flock, and the rest don't mean much. If so, is that state sustainable?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM

Ed asks "The priests and bishops, who claim to represent the church locally. Joe seems to say it's the individual and the flock, and the rest don't mean much. If so, is that state sustainable? "

Am not sure, but it seems to work that way better. I thik if it was not for those 'on the shop floor', so to speak, adapting and interpreting on an individual level then is could be less sustaianable. They would watch their flock walk away otherwise.

Of course not all Priests are flexible but then see what happens to them and their congregation.

Whilst some RC people are still in fear of the Priest - more than God themself in some ways - I think it is less prevalent these days. Like other Christian churches, Roman Catholics are no different in individual padres living in the real world and actually being more Christian than the faith itself appears to allow. In other words, just because the Pope is supposedly infallible does not mean all see him like that. What issues from his mouth, if seemingly un-Christian, they work around it to try and keep their congregants on a right path.

Some will say this does not happen. I have witnessed, and have some personal experience, that it does. There are some good Priests out there who see beyond the rehetoric and dogma

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:44 AM

An underlying thought seems to be pervasive in this discussion: since the Catholic Church has an incorrect opinion on the subject of birth control, it is therefore evil and has no right to speak about any issue. I disagree.

While I don't remember anyone saying the RCC was "evil" or had no right to speak about "any issue," I disagree also, Joe. The RCC has a right to speak out on any issue. What is damning, imo, is its lack of speaking out on certain issues, esp. a woman's right over her own body.

And, for the record, the RCC has spoken out plenty against condoms, actually using *that* word:

From HERE in 2009:

YAOUNDE, Cameroon — Pope Benedict XVI said condoms are not the answer to the AIDS epidemic in Africa and can make the problem worse, setting off criticism Tuesday as he began a weeklong trip to the continent where some 22 million people are living with HIV.

and:

The late Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo made headlines in 2003 for saying that condoms may help spread AIDS through a false sense of security, claiming they weren't effective in blocking transmission of the virus. The cardinal, who died last year, headed the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family.

I know there are priests and nuns who minister to their parishes and do NOT follow what the Pope has said, but Catholicism is growing the fastest in Africa and there needs to be clear leadership from the Pope on down on the issue of condoms regardless of anything else they may teach.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM

mauvepink
It does seem to work now, at least at some level. But, I suspect that (among other issues, like sexual abuse) could have had an impact on fewer RCs in the west?

But, will it work with the next generation, and the next....who may not have the same type of "imbedded" RC grounding from the past, when the central RC church dogma seemed more pertinent and followed?

What will the impact of a closer association with others be...like the Anglicans, Orthodox cathlic churches and possibly the Lutherans... with different interpretations of the church, faith and issues?

This pope seems to lean towards less local freedom to interpret and practice central church dogma and a tightening, rather than a loosening from the center (IMO. except financially, where there is a lawsuit). But, possibly his future successor may swing yet another way, by necessity or conviction (likely the latter)?

The local church does good charity work. But, so does other groups, some religiously affiliated, some less so.

I suspect that this popes travels, and the spreading of his personal message (on behalf of Peter), those that are at times at odds with the personal beliefs and practices of many in the the congregation does not make for a stronger Global church. But, this is just speculation on my part.

But, maybe there is a logical Rome master plan behind it all. I certainly feel that reaching out to a dialogue with other churches is progressive... after centuaries of division. Strategically so, if traditional growth seems to be on the decline. Hopefully, the person he put in charge of that, who seems to be doing a good job, did not discredit himself (internally and externally) with the unfortunate "third world" remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:02 AM

Could it not also be that the Catholic church is opposed to contraception with the underlying belief then that more babies will inevitably be born into Catholic families?

That's an argument that has been posed many times. I suppose it could be so, but the Catholic Church is not a particularly evangelical religion. It hasn't been interested in aggressive recruiting for at least the last forty years.
What it says in the Catechism is that the "marriage act" should be open to the conception of children, because that is an inherent part of the sacredness of the "marriage act."
With a billion mermbers, does any church need more?

---

From classes in Church History, it is my understanding that the development of the "cult of the Pope" is relatively new, mostly since the loss of the Papal States when Italy became a nation in the 1870s. Before that, the Pople was looked upon as just another petty European political leader, with some spiritual functions. But since the Pope ceased to be a significant political power (and since the advent of worldwide communications), many Catholics began to look to Rome for leadership, sometimes ignoring their own pastors and bishops and going to the top for direction. And oftentimes, people follow their own interpretation of what Rome has to say, which may or may not have any connection to reality. Most Catholic Church documents are very carefully nuanced and reasoned, and presented with great diplomacy. Right-wing pope-followers tend to dumb down anything said by the Vatican, so it can be contained in sound bites. Mother Angelica's Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) is a prime offender in the U.S.

There is a careful system of division of authority in the Catholic Church. In most situations, the local bishop is the final authority. The Pope, as Bishop of Rome," is "primus inter pares" (first among equals among the bishops. The Pope is also officially "primus inter pares" among the patriarchs. Although the patriarchs of the Orthodox churches are separated from Rome, there is still formal respect among the patriarchs.
And in most circumstances, the pastor is the final authority in the local parish, and almost all Catholic functions are centered in the parish, not beyond.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM

Ed said "What will the impact of a closer association with others be...like the Anglicans, Orthodox cathlic churches and possibly the Lutherans... with different interpretations of the church, faith and issues?"

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that for the Christian faith to survive it will need more unification rather than splitting up. They need to combine and literally be "singing off the same hymn sheet" if they are to volve into one body. Christ never spoke of there being many churches: just the one. It is what happened after he died, and was ressurected, that seems to mean more now to those in power. More weight seems to be given to the rest of the new testament over the four Gospels. For me, if I were a Christian, what would be most important, is for me to follow Jesus, not those that came after him. Jesus gave all the rules that needed to be followed. It seems other men - mortals - have added their own bits and bobs over time.

I could be very wrong. That is why I am not part of any particular religious group. My agnosticism leans toward Christ's words when I look for something spiritual. I have always had a hard time going along with most the rest of it.

I am not an expert. My comments above, and below, are based soley on my own observations and experiences as I have wended my way through the years. The only thing I am certain about is my uncertainty.

Nevertheless. I do know there are good men and women out their who try and adhere to Christs teaching, whilst still part of a larger Christian church, and that I have been priveliged to meet many good Roman Catholics of all flavours who have lived by Christ's words rather than the Popes.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:35 AM

The trouble with the original proposition that Stephen was debating i.e. "Is the Catholic Church a force for good" is that it is a force for some good. But, of course, Hitler was a force for some good in as much as he rebuilt the German economy in the 30s but...

And the "but" factor really kicks in with the Catholic Church.
For example, my head was definitely screwed up by a Catholic education and their "hell fire" threats.
When I was 11, I was told by a teacher that if a I deliberately missed mass on Sunday, and was then knocked down and killed on Monday, my soul would go straight to hell!
Now, I would be interested to know if that would constitute child abuse today.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM

I have seen a lot of beautiful things in the Catholic Church growing up. And likewise seen some things that could really screw a person up. I could go on an on about my grade school Catholic education but I won't. I can't resist this story however to make you laugh: "In 6th grade the nun came in one morning and said that if us guys ever touched our bodies in the wrong place we would go to hell" .. so at recess (bathroom break) you had 20 6th grade boys standing in line at the urinals trying to pee without touching their 'thingy' cause they didn't want to go to hell .. LOL absolutely true story ...

anyway, what both sides are saying is true to an extent and not true to an extent. I don't defend them, I don't throw rocks at them, I accept that they are run by people and they will have what people have. Mainly the good and the bad that is within all ..

I want to see problems addressed openly, steps taken to correct the issues.   I want to see people jailed who broke the law. I also want to see those that do so much good get the recognition they deserve also. There are a lot more Mother Teresa's out there then we know doing work for God and showing the love and compassion that is expected by such calling. Sadly like anything else, we only hear the bad.

In order to be better, to grow, you have to accept the faults and correct them. Not hide and deny .. I see cover ups that took place and only when one accepts the wrong, takes measures to change, can the good come out. Sadly for too many years the sins of the church have been silenced by pay offs to the victims or transfers of priests to other parishes ect .. It is time to change, admit the failing and get back to God's work only.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Joe, Monsieur La Pope will forevermore be known to me as The Pople. ;0)

You know, I really think that all those cardinals should just go and get themselves laid...same with the nuns...then they'd all realise what they'd been missing for so long and have the holy books changed in an instant!

I remember a very glamourous woman coming in to my office in Harley St, many moons ago. We're talking Joanna Lumley Gorgeous, here, dripping in elegance and highly expensive clothes. I commented on how lovely she looked and she grinned. Then she told me it was her way of 'getting her own back' on the nuns who'd done so much damage to she and her friends when they were growing up. She told us how the girls hadn't even been able to take a bath without wearing a gown that covered them from shoulders to ankles, because to view your body was bordering on evil. So taking great care of herself, loving her body, loving the way she looked was her 'two fingers' back at 'em...

These people are seriously nuts. Sorry, Joe, but someone has to say it. They've all got so many hang ups that they'd keep thousands of psychiatrists busy for eternity...

I mean, where the hell did all this weird stuff come from in the first place?

The good people in any church are very good...and the bad are more bad than many folks inside our jails, but for some reason they're allowed to be out there in charge of children and adults alike...screwing up their minds and souls, often their whole life long.

And tell me, how many Catholics who've left the fold, return to it, shortly before they know death is coming, just 'to be on the safe side'...

Terrible terrible things have been told to children in the name of many religions, for no other reason than control, power and absolutely shitty cruelty. What goes in to a young child's mind, repeatedly, at such an early age, stays there. It takes a strong adult to be able to release his/her inner, damaged child from all the crappy things said 'in the name of God'..

If I was Pope-ess, and I was the head of a church run entirely by women who preached to little children that staring, feeling, fondling or simply loving your body, or letting someone else do all of the above, was downright evil, it would be shut down immediately and the majority of men, in particular, would write me, and my fellow religious maidens off..for life.

Whoever first decided that nuns and priests should show God how deep their love for him was, by giving up one of the most wondrous and loving things on the planet, was completely off his rocker and had the biggest hang up going..(no jokes, please, boys)

I *am* with the pople inasmuch as soooooo do not like all this rampant sex with any Tom, Dick or Harriet that's going on around the planet, with no need for there to be love thrown in there somewhere..and yes, in that respect, condoms, and the Pill, have wrought havoc on what was once regarded as something very special...

I strongly think that Love should replace Sex again...Everyone's 'having sex' but so few are 'making love' any longer..and it's desensitising to the point where something so beautiful has become nothing more than a physical act where, hey, you don't even have to ask each other's name when it's all over..just pack up yer condom and go...

I mean????????

Anyway, I'll leave the jokes to start flowing now..and go back to my naughty step..Gawd, I get bored sitting on the naughty step.. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM

Bad Lizzie, Bad Bad .. Lizzie ... go to your room LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

...for the Christian faith to survive it will need more unification rather than splitting up..

The word "Catholic",meaning "universal" reflects the fact that this has always been, and continues to be the aspiration - not too successful much of the time. But the fact remains that the Catholic Church does include by far more of the world's Christians than all other denominations put together. It's mainstream Christianity - warts and all.

Like anything human it's imperfect, and needs constant fixing and adjusting. Sometimes the fixing and adjusting isn't done too well, and re-fixing and re-adjusting is needed, time after time.

I'm reminded of the stuff Obama said about America aspiring to build "a more perfect union". Same thinking really.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM

Right on Mcgrath!! well said

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:59 PM

Never trust a man who wears red slippers.. ;0)

I think, as well as allowing priests and nuns to fall in love AND be able to do something about it, they should also give all their wealth away to the very poorest of their people.

That would be a very Holy thing to do....and...it would make God smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

Stephen Fry - Isn't it bad enough, without arse bandits like yourself critising the problems of an age old Christian religion?
Stephen Fry should read Lizzie's post. I agree wholehartedly that the Catholic Church should allow Priests and Nuns to have sex, as, the suppression of such human instincts is mentally ,and physically, unhealthy .
It is completely unnatural for adults to engage in such denial and abstinence.
Nice to see we can all have a view and discussion on this particular religion, no doubt Mr Fry is not going to expound or impart his views on the Jewish or Muslim religion behaviour and their particular peculiarities and suppression of females, - perhaps not !

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:01 AM

I absolutely think that the church's crazy dogma on birth control is a wish to outbreed other religions for one thing, and a response to the potato famine on another, to replace lives that were lost, regardless of the cost to the impoverished living. There was so much cruelty related to that, and not a one, priest or nun, ever said I am sorry it has to be this way, I realize a lot of pain comes from this but after all it is God's will. Not a one I ever heard. I truly think they thought it was God's will though, as come to us through crazy men in the deserts of Palestine..oops holy men but if we saw them now we would hospitalize them and they have run our lives. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:44 AM

Well, I spent most of the last 48 hours with my boss, Sister Judy, who has been a nun for 50 years now. She taught math in a Catholic high school for a number of years, and has worked for the poor for about the last 25 years. Her previous job was at the Loaves and Fishes Dining Room in Sacramento, where she supervised a gathering place for homeless people who were waiting to have lunch. She took two years off that job to work with refugees from the conflict in Rwanda.
For about the last five years, she's been director of the women's respite and hospitality center where I do volunteer work, and we have become great friends. Judy loves men, and she's a great flirt (and I flirt back, quite outrageously). She once went to Holland for a weekend with a man who needed a "date" at a wedding - I think she likes to tell the story because of the somewhat scandalous implications of the trip....
Her vacation this year was to drive to Massachusetts to attend the wedding of some lesbian friends, one a former nun. There were several nuns in attendance at the wedding - don't tell the Vatican. They went to the wedding because they loved the people who were getting married, not because of any particular agenda.
Judy spends her time caring for people. Currently, it's Frances and George, a couple who are seriously ill and unable to care for themselves. Judy has known them for years. Now that they're incapacitated, Judy calls them every day and visits several times a week. Before George and Frances, Judy was watching out for her own sister, who was dying of cancer.
A few months ago, Judy gave me a tour of the Loaves and Fishes dining room, where she used to work. The homeless people treated her as a well-loved celebrity. Many homeless men came up and kissed her - on the lips.
I'm not sure a woman could have a husband and family, and do what Judy does. Her "family" is her religious order, and she has many close friendships within the order that have lasted fifty years. Her religious community is a true "sisterhood." The other nun on our staff, Sister Jane, entered the order 48 years ago, and Judy was Jane's "big sister" when Jane entered. They've been close friends ever since, and it's lovely to listen to their (somewhat earthy) banter.
So, today, Judy and I were painting the interior of the women's center, and we had a wonderful time. I did the planning and prep work for our five volunteers from a labor union, and Judy made them feel important. I had thought it would take fifteen people to do the work we did today, but Judy has a way of making people feel like they can do anything they put their minds to.

Jane and Judy chose not to get married - celibacy is an integral part of life in a religious community. There are some religious communities like Taize and I believe the Iona Community that welcome non-celibate persons or couples, but that's a new development.


Another new development is the addition of Associate members of religious orders. Associates do not take the usual vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, but they do participate in the ministry and work of the religious orders. In about twelve hours, I will become an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy. My wife teases that I'm becoming a nun, but it's not quite that. Still, it's nice to associate myself with such a wonderful community of women. Spaw has always called me "Fr. Joebro." Maybe that's not the appropriate term anymore....

My experience is that the nuns are the only part of the Catholic Church that aren't screwed up. I've worked with nuns all my life. Generally, I've found them to be extraordinary people. There are a few nuns that are screwed up, but not many. Most are doing exactly what they want to be doing, most often something extraordinary. And they are unbelievably happy doing what they're doing. They serve as centers of joy and wisdom wherever they are.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:59 AM

GUEST Betsy ~~ Your use of the vulgar and dismissive phrase "arse bandit" in connection with Stephen Fry ~~ as if his particular, perfectly legal and far from unusual, sexual orientation disqualifies him from holding views on the subject under discussion ~~ is beneath contempt.

Why should he be prevented from fulfilling his sexual needs and instincts, whatever they are provided there is no non-consensual element involved, any more than the nuns & priests whose rights in this connection you appear to espouse?

You should be ashamed of yourself for such a formulation~ but I don't expect you are.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:25 AM

I hear what you're saying, Joe - I too have known some really nice celibate lesbian nuns, uncelibate heterosexual priests, gay monks & trendy laity etc. etc. but then again I dare say Nazis were really nice people too. After all people aren't the issue here, people are people whatever crap they espouse or believe in. Throw as many smokecreens cas you like, but the issue here is the Institutionalised Promotion of Ignorance, Lies, Murder, Paedophilia, Oppression, Superstition, Hocus-Pocus and Assorted Hoo-Hah that is, and always has been, The Very Unholy Roman Catholic Church and its Universal Mission to Repress and Pacify Humanity to its Rancid and Inhuman Cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

Sorry if my post was a little flippant, but I've heard a few stories of the cruelty of some nuns to young girls.

I'm sure Sister Judy would be a suporter of this song, Joe...which to me would be a song that I'm sure Jesus would be happy to sing. And I don't think that Jesus's's's' Dad would want folks to be celibate for *his* sake. Fine if that's how they want to live, many choose that path and that's absolutely fine, but I'm sure that God would not demand that of anyone....

Not the God who has stood beside me throughout my life, at least..

Roy Bailey - 'Everything Possible'

‎'Everything Possible' by Fred Small

"We've cleared off the table, the leftovers saved,
Washed the dishes and put them away
I have told you a story, tucked you in tight
At the end of your knockabout day
...As the moon sets its sails to carry you to sleep
Over the midnight sea
I will sing you a song no one sang to me
May it keep you good company.

Oh you can be anybody you want to be,
You can love whomever you will
You can travel any country where your heart leads
And know I will love you still
You can live by yourself, you can gather friends around,
You can choose one special one
And the only measure of your words and your deeds
Will be the love you leave behind when you're done.

There are girls who grow up strong and bold
There are boys quiet and kind
Some race on ahead, some follow behind
Some go in their own way and time
Some women love women, some men love men
Some raise children, some never do
You can dream all the day never reaching the end
Of everything possible for you.

Don't be rattled by names, by taunts, by games
But seek out spirits true
If you give your friends the best part of yourself
They will give the same back to you."

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM

May I politely suggest that 'Betsy' reads the words above as well, and takes them into 'her' heart..

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:53 AM

Great story Joe and generally true I know. As someone said earlier in the thread "there are more Mother Theresas out there than bad ones". But Nun's have not been without blame entirely and there were several incidents and places in Ireland where young children were terribly mistreated and dealth with cruelly. That aside... good luck on becoming a Nun and maybe you will establish a new order? ;-)

Most Nuns I have known have been really nice and had an almost 'devilish' sense of fun and humour.

------

Betsy: Are you not aware that a great many gay men asbstain and never practice anal sex? It is also something that not only gay men do. The term "arse bandit" has no place in decent discussion. I'm quite surprised you used it

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM

Seems to me that anal sex is practiced on women by a great many heterosexual men these days, isn't it? It strikes me as a strange and unnatural thing to do, given that Nature did not design the anus for that purpose, but I'm strictly speaking for myself when I say that...it's not my business what other people want to do of their own mutual consent in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM

there are more Mother Theresas out there than bad ones

Let's sincerely hope not, eh? See Shattering the Myth of Mother Teresa etc.

*

It strikes me as a strange and unnatural thing to do

The wonderful thing about Humanity is that we are, out of necessesity, both STRANGE and UNNATURAL. Trumpets are both STRANGE & UNNATURAL; steam engines, Large Hadron Colliders and TV sets likewise. Do we find 'em growing on trees? I think not! So all our works are STRANGE and UNNATURAL, which is why we're able to talk to each other across the ether on Mudcat, which is a pretty STRANGE and UNNATURAL thing to do too. We are The Transfiguring Alchemists of Nature - able to tranform the mineral deposits of a billion years into the strings on your guitar or the alloys of your penny whistle; we butcher GOATS and chop down TREES just so you can play your BODHRANS. So, by the same token I'd say ANAL SEX is no more STRANGE or UNNATURAL than any other sort of sex. SEX is primarily about PLEASURE; actual PROCREATION is, at best a RANDOM BY-PRODUCT of a procedure which is, nevertheless, the reason why we're on this planet in the first place. And for all you BIBLE FREAKS out there who feel ANAL SEX in ANY CONTEXT is AN ABOMINATION AGAINST THE LORD, or NATURE, then check out SONG OF SONGS, Chapter 5 Verse 4, King James, in which such an act is desbribed with delicious consequence. How SCAT is that? UNNATURAL? Damn right it's UNNATURAL - everything we are is UNNATURAL and for that fact alone let us be truly thankful.

Here endeth the lesson.

Connubialis Licentia exsisto vobis!
Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:33 AM

Shouting a bit there...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:46 AM

Read it as gentle emphasis rather than shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM

"So, by the same token I'd say ANAL SEX is no more STRANGE or UNNATURAL than any other sort of sex. SEX is primarily about PLEASURE; actual PROCREATION is, at best a RANDOM BY-PRODUCT of a procedure which is, nevertheless, the reason why we're on this planet in the first place. And for all you BIBLE FREAKS out there who feel ANAL SEX in ANY CONTEXT is AN ABOMINATION AGAINST THE LORD, or NATURE, then check out SONG OF SONGS, Chapter 5 Verse 4, King James, in which such an act is desbribed with delicious consequence. How SCAT is that? UNNATURAL? Damn right it's UNNATURAL - everything we are is UNNATURAL and for that fact alone let us be truly thankful."


Hmmmmm...well, you speak for yourself, Sunshine. (stone the crows, smiley!)

I'm not strange and I'm most certainly *not* unnatural...whatever that may be.

Speaking as a woman, I find the idea of anal sex very peculiar, but heck, I'm an old-fashioned-old-gal and I don't believe in letting those with er..slightly (imo) bonkers dispositions tell me that SEX has replaced LOVE or that I should be Made Love to as if I were er....er...um...er...someone from a dodgy movie who spends their Christmas Holipops in an Anne Summers shop.

"I'm sorry, dear, you want to do WHAT?....I really think you should go and get yourself a nice cup of tea and calm down, dear."

;0)

But heyho, we're all different, thank heavens...and we all have different outlooks, likes and dislikes.

Anyone is, of course, free to do whatever they want behind their closed doors. But, bottom line, if you'll excuse the pun, is that the most important thing in life is to feel loved. But, please don't tell me about the private affairs stuff because it's private, between the 2 people concerned, or the 16, or the pig and the camel and the woman down the road.

But folks who want to behave thus in a public manner will get the short end of my fuse...not my arse, or any where near it...Just like that bloke did from the Labour Party when I rang up years back to complain about New Labour relaxing the law on funny folks who want to have 'sex' in public toilets...??????? It went something like this:

"Oh, you don't like gay people then, madam?" he snarled at me sarcastically.

"No, I merely don't approve in any way, **whatsoever** of folks of any gender, age, size, height, race, religion, or planet, having sex in a public toilet, because quite frankly it's horrible and it's creepy, but more than that it's just plain WRONG, in my opinion. And also, I'm the mother of young children and I should be able to feel that they are safe from weird people, doing weird things should they need to use a public toilet at some time. Thank you very much."

That shut him up, I can tell ye.. ;0)

I mean WHAT the **** has happened to us as a species???????

Anyway, we seen to have digressed a little from the original theme, but really, Sunshine, you are only speaking for yourself there, not for me.

Bring back Love and Making Love, say I.
Aye!


Yours dearly
Lizzie Love (with no lace attached)
(as opposed to Lizzie Sex Kitten)

Thank ooo
:0)


And I still like Mother Theresa, by the way. Maybe she stopped believing in God because when she gave the money to The Vatican they merely put it in their Banco de Catholico and watched it earn even *more* money so they could buy La Pople In Waiting decades worth of handmade scarlet slippers?    Meanwhile, poor Mother T simply had to get on with things, ad infinitum...And maybe she was hoping to save the souls of all the old sods she had to meet? Maybe she was trying, in her own way to convince herself that *no-one* could be *that* evil in their hearts..?   

It's very easy to write the most appalling things about someone when they're dead and gone, no longer here to answer the accusations from their perspective...There are always two sides to everything you know......

Why, it was only the other day that I read that the Beefeater in the Tower of London Female Bullying Fiasco, the one who lost his house and job because of accusations made against him by the first lady beefeater, has been given a huge apology and around £50,000 in compensation for the loss of his job and home.

Beefeater story in The Independant

So, who knows what the truth really is with Mother Theresa...
She was most certainly loved by a great many people and seemed very far from the evil dragon she's almost portrayed as in that article you posted.

And now, back to Stephen Fry and La Pople di Scarletto :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM

Well despite our troubles we can still have pretty songs that are pretty much gone now but here is one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNOsaT0A__Y&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

Pretty questionable interpretation of that verse in the Song of Songs.

A bit akin to assuming, for example, that if someone is described as "a heartbreaker" they must obvously be involved in open-heart surgery.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM

I mean WHAT the **** has happened to us as a species???????

Personally, I find the idea of people making each other happy in public toilets a lot less depraved than the sort of inhumane racket Mother Teresa was operating, much less the cloying for Santification that invariably arises at the mention of her name. The passage that always sticks in my mind: On another occasion, Teresa told a terminal cancer patient, who was dying in extreme pain, that he should consider himself fortunate: "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you." (She freely related his reply, which she seemed not to realize was meant as a putdown: "Then please tell him to stop kissing me.")

More depraved than both, however, is the spectacle of Susan Boyle & Daniel O'Donnel singing Our Lady of Knock. Out of common decency, I beg you, not to post links like that again without giving due warning of the sort of deeply offensive horrors they lead to! If I'm in the mood for a spot of the old Marian Devotion (and why not?) I'll listen to something a little more appropriate, something like THIS maybe, which has nice lyrics too:

Mary, asylum for the whole world, protect us. Jesus, refuge all of us, hear us.
Indeed you are our place of refuge, truly a refuge for the whole world.

Jesus, supreme and truthful good. Mary, sweet and most gracious mercy.
In the same way you show your pity to us, we who are strongly oppressed by the vanity of life.

Mary was the salvation for all, Jesus the redeem for the damned.
Fighting ardently for their followers, bearing hard beatings and blows.

Shame Susan Boyle can't sing stuff like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

Betsy maybe interested to know that Stephen Fry claims (or did a couple of years ago) to be celibate, his only indulgence being "self-pleasuring" s he likes to call it.

Joe, you're in a dream world. It is simply farcical to blather on about life in Sacremento when the Catholic church wreaks most of its havoc in deprived communities. The more primitive the society the greater the abuses. You have a peculiar understanding of your own power within the church. If it were anywhere near what you think it is, you would no doubt have righted many of the wrongs before now. As it is, you are merely a pawn for an institution that you yourself seem to regard as pretty much fucked up. no doubt you intend that to sound rebellious, but fucked-up is too feeble a term, implying little worse than incompetence or innocent muddle. You need to find a term that embraces mendacity and exploitation. That's the kind of rebellion your church is crying out for.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

There's a saying about that kind of reform. "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater." (As in the song "My baby has gorn down the plughole"...)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM

I became an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy today, and it was a wonderful thing to become part of that community. It seems a shame to come back to this crap today. I've worked in the Catholic Church all my life, but Fionn claims I know nothing about the Catholic Church. You MUST be right, Fionn. I'm sure all the blatherings from you and Suibhne are the absolute truth, and all these wonderful people I've worked with are actually horrible and perverted.

If you say so, it must be the truth, and my real-life experience is an absolute falsehood.

Say, by the way, has either of you actually ever known a nun or a priest in your entire life? When was the last time you even dared to talk with a nun or a priest?

I'm sorry, but after a lifetime of membership and work in the Catholic Church, I think what Fionn and Suibne have to say is sheer bigotry. The incidents they cite may be true; but in an organization with a billion members, there's enough anecdotal evidence to prove anything you want to prove. I've studied the Catholic Church all my life, and with a critical eye - so critical that many extremists claim I'm not really Catholic. There's a lot wrong with the Catholic Church, just as there's a lot wrong with every large organization - and yes, Catholics must continue working to right those wrongs. Then again, there's a lot right with the Catholic Church, especially in Third World countries. The Catholic Church has many problems in third world countries, but the Church is also a source of joy and justice for millions of people in impoverished nations. Agencies such as Catholic Relief Services have worked hard to alleviate poverty in Third World nations, with no attempt to convert the recipients of their aid.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM

I'm sure all the blatherings from you and Suibhne are the absolute truth, and all these wonderful people I've worked with are actually horrible and perverted.

This isn't about Roman Catholics, it's about Roman Catholicism - two very different things; the Theology is horrible and perverted and as Fry points out acts very much against human interest.

Say, by the way, has either of you actually ever known a nun or a priest in your entire life? When was the last time you even dared to talk with a nun or a priest?

As I explained earlier I've known some great Roman Catholics from various points of the hierachy - priest, monks, nuns, sundry laity, ordinary punters - but their greatness was very human and did nothing to convince me of the bullshit they believed in otherwise.

I'm sorry, but after a lifetime of membership and work in the Catholic Church, I think what Fionn and Suibne have to say is sheer bigotry.

I'm not bigoted in the slightest; I take a keen interest in the culture, history & theology of the RCC and it is from this point I am arguing. I am not suggesting we burn all RCs as evil doers, just be wary that, given half a chance, they might burn us as heretics for not buying into their Universal Truth, as they have been wont to do in the past. Don't worry though, I hold all religions in equal contempt, though I might celebrate their more folkloric aspects in terms of culture and history which I do find fascinating on human terms because, ultimately, it's all a bunch of made up shit no matter when it was written, or by whom.

I was talking to an RC friend recently who reckoned the wholesale massacre of (say) the Cathars by the RCC was too long ago to worry about, likewise things like THIS and other related atrocities down the years, but she nevertheless wept at the thought of the shedding of one man's blood on the cross some 2,000 years ago. Personally I would think the amount of blood shed in His Name ever since then has rather diluted not just the sacrifice, but the message.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

Yes, Joe, I've known and talked to nums and priests, more so in Belfast than here in Bosnia where,as you know, many priests and bishops were complicit in the forcible conversion to catholicism of some 300,000 Orthodox Christians. I think i may have told you I gave my piano to Fr Des Wilson's People's Theatre group in Ballymurphy. Wilson was as decent a guy as you could shake a stick at, but what does that prove about the Catholic church? Incidentally he was a bit of a rebel too. A bit too nationalist for the prevailing tastes of the day, and lost his parish.

If 300,000 sounds a lot in a small population, by the way,   that's beause it is. That is the kind of scale on which your beloved church (perhaps no more so than some other religions) has blighted innocent lives all over the world.

Can't remember who it was who said that thee are good Unbelievers who do good, and good Believers who do good. But for good people to do bad, that takes religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM

I can think of an awful lot of bad things done in the name of politics of one sort or another by people with the most admirable motives, without religion coming into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:28 AM

Likewise I'm sure - the difference being that whilst Nazis and Stalinist alike are universally reviled for the atrocities committed by their respective regimes, the equally bloody-handed Roman Catholic Church is held up as the paragon of benign human charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM

"An underlying thought seems to be pervasive in this discussion: since the Catholic Church has an incorrect opinion on the subject of birth control, it is therefore evil and has no right to speak about any issue. I disagree."

That's way too black and white. The Church not only has (in the view of many) an incorrect view on birth control but, twenty times worse, it fairly forcefully propagates that view, and it does so regardless of the state of education or poverty level of the people in many developing countries with big Catholic populations. I abhor that but it still doesn't mean I think the Church shouldn't be free to speak out on other issues. What it does mean is that the Church itself has made it much more difficult for any of its pronouncements on anything to be taken seriously. Its recent outrageous cover-up behaviour has given it even more of an uphill task. The Church hardly needs us cynical outsiders to bring disrepute raining down on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:59 AM

Interesting insight into the history of the clerical child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church from today's Irish Times - note the date of the incident.
Jim Carroll

SAINTHOOD FOR AUSTRALIAN NUN WHO EXPOSED PAEDOPHILE PRIEST
PADRAIG COLLINS
In Sydney
THE FOUNDER of the Sisters of St Joseph, who will be canonised as Australia's first saint next month, was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1871 after exposing a paedophile Irish priest, it has been revealed.
Australian television has reported that Sr Mary MacKillop discovered that children were being abused by Fr Patrick Keating in the Kapunda parish near Adelaide in South Australia.
She told Josephites director Fr Julian Tenison-Woods about the abuse. It was then reported to the vicar general and Fr Keating was sent back to Ireland, where he continued to serve as a priest.
Fr Charles Horan, a Galway man who was a colleague of Fr Keating, swore revenge on Sr MacKillop and her order. After only four years as a nun, she was excommunicated by Adelaide's bishop Laurence Shiel, who was originally from Wexford.
She was turned out on the street with no money and nowhere to go.
Five months later, though, on his deathbed, Bishop Shiel instructed that Sr MacKillop be absolved and restored.
Fr Paul Gardiner, who has advocated for Sr MacKillop's canonisation for 25 years, said Fr Horan had been working for Bishop Shiel and had urged him to break up the Josephites. When Sr MacKillop, who was then aged 29, refused, she was banished from the church. "She submitted to a farcical ceremony where the bishop had... lost it," Fr Gardiner said.
"He was a puppet being manipulated by malicious priests. This sounds terrible, but it's true."
In 2009,100 years after Sr MacKillop's death, Archbishop Philip Wilson of Adelaide publicly apologised to the Sisters of St Joseph for her wrongful excommunication.
"On behalf of myself and the archdiocese, I apologise to the sisters ... for what happened to them in the context of the excommunication, when their lives and their community life was interrupted and they were virtually thrown out on the streets... This was a terrible thing," he said.
After being reinstated by the Catholic Church, Sr MacKillop became known for her work with disadvantaged children, female ex-prisoners and prostitutes.
She was beatified by Pope John Paul II in 1995 following a Vatican decree that in 1961, a Sydney woman was cured of leukemia through Sr MacKillop's intercession. The second miracle required for sainthood occurred in the mid-1990s when a woman sent home from hospital to die due to inoperable lung and brain cancer was cured.
The family of Cork man David Keohane, who was beaten almost to death in Sydney in 2008, said his waking from a coma in Cork University Hospital in March last year was due to their praying to Sr MacKillop.
"All we can really say is that faith in Mary MacKillop helped them to get through this," Steve Carey, a Keohane family friend, said at the time.
Sr MacKillop, who was born in Melbourne to Scottish immigrant parents in 1842 and died in Sydney in 1909, will be canonised by Pope Benedict in Rome on October 17th.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: olddude
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:05 AM

Joe
you are trying to argue the points and good points by the way with folks that don't want to hear what you are saying .. I get it, many others do also. One only has to look at their own town or any collective group of people to see the absolute good and the absolute bad that exists in every organization that has more than a single person in it .. Like I said - sadly only the bad will ever get the press. Like politics, each party has great people and terrible people. It is particularly hard when it is an organization founded to only do good, does some very bad things, then the bad takes on a more odorous form. Although I will go to any church or not go to any church I still call myself Catholic. I like to fix things that are broken, probably why I still carry a watch made in 1905.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM

There were many good folks in Germany, doing many good things during WW2.There was the government organization, the Nazi regime,that was doing very bad things. Does the first group of good citizens, make the second, the Nazi regime, as an organization, any better?

This is an extreme case....and yes, maybe too extreme and unfair for this comparison. But, I feel a similar comparison can be considered when assessing the statement put forward in the original debate that Fry participated in.

Are local parishoners having bake sales to help refuges in Haiti doing enough to negate the other bad stuff in the RC organization (pope, bishops, cardinals and priests included. and we can even throw in nuns and monks to help it out), past and present?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

"I like to fix things that are broken, probably why I still carry a watch made in 1905."

That's your next song, Dan... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

"I already know what the first amendment is. What I want to know is how it's been violated. You haven't answered the question.

A National Day of Prayer and a yearly Prayer Breakfast given in Congress is one way.

Putting "god" in the pledge of allegiance is another.

Funding for religious groups with tax dollars is another.

Putting "god" on US currency is another.

Leading Christian prayers at congressional sessions is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

And the pope advising a politician on abortion is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM

None of those is as bad (though they are all pretty bad) as putting religious instruction/worship/observance into schools. That's just wicked. Note that I didn't say "religious education."

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM

How can anything anybody says to a politician be "a breach of the First Amendment"?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

"There were many good folks in Germany, doing many good things during WW2. There was the government organization, the Nazi regime,that was doing very bad things."
Do you really believe it to have been as black and white as this?
Can't remember who said "All it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing".
And then there were those 'ordinary citizens' in Germany who were quite happy to let the Nazis doo what they did without getting their own hands dirty.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

"All it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing".

That is very true.

Godwin's Law: Well, good for those who raise and adhere to "Goodwin's law". Let them all tune out now, and bury their heads in the RC sand:)

Those who constantly talk about the good the RC parish folks do, in a discussion about the overall RC organization, remind me of Mothers who only "see" only the good in their children, even though they may be very bad folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM

Godwin's Law is not applicable. No-one is comparing anyone here to a Nazi or Hitler. The post on Germany, mentioning Nazis, is appropriate because that is, in fact, where the Nazis operated at the point in history the poster is referring to. To ban any mention of Nazis on the internet on account of a "law" that Godwin is now embarrassed about would be an infringement of the right to free speech. The person who raised this has acted either in ignorance or in mischief. Godwin himself would be ashamed of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

"There is therefore no function in society which is peculiar to woman as woman or man as man; natural abilities are similarly distributed in each sex and it is natural for woman to share all occupations with men." "The Republic" by Plato (427-347 BC)