Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK

Subject: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:57 AM

I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control.

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/07/05/islamic-sharia-law-courts-operating-in-west-midlands-66331-24075255/

Does it concern other mudcatters, or is it a storm in a tea cup?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

Yes, it worries me. There are, it seems to me, three different levels of interaction between voluntarily assumed "legal" principles and indigenous law using in the latter case the word "law" correctly.

First, there is a wide range of circumstances in which individuals (if not coerced) are free to agree what their legal rights and obligations are. This is "freedom of contract". It does not apply in relation to the criminal law.

Second, there is another range of circumstances in which UK (and European) law has decided that individuals may not agree to give up thier legal rights - some exclusion clauses are unenforceable against consumers, for example, see the Unfair Contract Terms Act (which also has some application in relation to rights in tort as well as contract) and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. I am of the view that the voluntary agreement to exclude such rights should be (and indeed is) unenforceable whether it arises through the adoption of a differnet system of "law" or otherwise. Indeed UCTA contains provisions directed at such practices, and so does European law relating to the recognition and enforcement of judgments.

Third, there is crime. Personal agreement does not affect what the criminal law is.

I am therefore of the view that agreements between parties in this country to be bound by eg Sharia (or Rabbinical, come to that) law should be treated as contrary to public policy save so far as my first category is concerned. That is, however, not, it seems, the government's view.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:32 AM

I was with you all the way, Richard, until the last sentence. On the very few occasions I've heard anyone from government speak on this, they have agreed with your 1st and 3rd points (the second was not mentioned, rather than disagreed with.) Their view seemed to be that people could agree to be bound by Sharia and Rabbinical Law (type #1), except where it contravened UK law (which would be both #2 and #3)

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:39 AM

well if it is factually correct,it is something I would be concerned about.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:02 AM

I guess the newspaaper would be very silly, if it hadn't done it's research properly and the report was not factual. You would expect that they would check every sentence in the article, as it could spark a huge amount of controversy.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:05 AM

I have never heard such a load of bollocks in my life.

The story is bunk. It mixes up the concept of any Sharia tribunal that might be operating in this country with nutty ramblings by independent clerics on IslamOnline.

UK law does not recognise any unrecognised tribunal. Simple as that. One sharia tribunal (mentioned in the article and based an university, has been recognised for its mediation service. Some mosques offer sharia as a valid form of ADR (alternative dispute resolution) whereby parties in dispute attempt ADR in an effort to avoid a court-date. If both parties don't feel a fair compromise in ADR then they walk away and continue through the courts. What's the problem?

Now if community-members choose to go to a sharia court to resolve their own disputes, without prejudice to their legal rights - what's the problem? The Jewish community have operated religious courts (Beth Din) in this country for decades - and if you think that Judaism is nice cuddly inclusive set of beliefs then you are sorely mistaken.

In Nigeria the Sharia courts work in Parallel with the secular legal system. Criminals can choose Sharia courts or Secular courts. If they don't like their sentence then they are free to appeal to the secular court. Only the secular prison and justice system can carry out sentence so there is the maximum protection to people. The system works very well there - so well that an increasing number of Christians opt into the Sharia process.

A lot of Muslim women resort to Sharia courts because the Sharia is much more weighted towards the women and children in cases of the husband's infidelity or unreasonable behaviour, where it leads to divorce.

This story is very poor and is carefully crafted to wind up reactions in reactionary people. Very disappointing.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:22 AM

"I guess the newspaaper would be very silly, if it hadn't done it's research properly and the report was not factual."

Yes, it's inconceivable that a British newspaper would be so silly!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:24 AM

There was an article about this in the Guardian on, I think, Friday. One point made was that women in some social groupings are at a huge disadvantage, through poor English (thier access to information being filtered through their community), and consequent ignorance of their rights and access to the mainstream legal system. This latter has already been greatly restricted by the virtual abolition of legal aid.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:41 AM

Paul, you are right. There are regrettably some who are in the position you describe, but this is a tragic minority - typically the small number of "imported" brides and does not apply to British-born or educated people, making up (in any statistically correct the descrption) effectively all of the UK Muslim community.

A lot of community effort (outreach, charity, refuge-provision) is directed at finding and helping these people and the police are beginning to work fabulously with these groups. Just a shame that they find it difficult to get the funding they need.

So it's not all bad, just remember to keep perspective. The problem of abused Muslim wives is no more prevalent than abused wives in the wider community; the only difference is until recently there was less support for Muslim women.

A lot of problems of abuse and deprivations are becoming apparent now in connection with the the growing popularity of "internet-brides" amongst American / European men.4

Regrettably the desire of some men to abuse women is a phenomenon that transcend all lines of race, creed and colour.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:54 AM

Royston, you seem to have a good understanding of what is going on. So what are your comments on this extract from the article.

Civitas director Dr David Green last night called for an immediate end to the recognition of Islamic courts by British law.

He said: "The reality is that for many Muslims, sharia courts are in practice part of an institutionalised atmosphere of intimidation, backed by the ultimate sanction of a death threat."

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:18 AM

UK law does not recognise any courts other than the courts of the crown in criminal matters. That will never change. Unless the BNP get in, as they advocate the death penalty.

So UK law does not recognise any Sharia court or Beth Din in the criminal sphere and in any event this country does not have the death sentence, so it would not be available to any tribunal now or in the future. The story is a total farce. Wrong, fallacious, incorrect, mendacious, spurious, vexatious. Get the message?

UK law recognises jewish courts deciding civil - property, family, money - cases where both parties have agreed the jurisdiction. So why not Muslim courts. Or Christian courts. I just don't see the problem.

Beth Din are not open to public scrutiny, nobody complains. In fact a lot of the UK family court proceedings are in closed chambers for obvious reasons. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, i added the comment about bnp in the wrong Place. Should attach to the bit about death penalty, not about recognition of tribunals.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:33 AM

So are you saying that people are not intimidated or that anybody is killed due to Sharia Law?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:35 AM

Sorry, I should have added "in the UK"

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:39 AM

Are there any examples of murders carried out under the banner of Sharia law in the UK?

Anyone who commits a murder in the UK faces prison.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:01 AM

If the article is correct,I would like to raise this point.
ok,do we as English have the same right to English law,in Muslim countries.
if this article is correct[which I doubt],we as people of a different race and religion should be entitled to English law,in Israel,and also in Muslim countries.
Correct me if I am wrong,but I dont think this is presently the case.
the English system of law[which includes Innocent until proven guilty],is in my opinion the fairest in the world.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:02 AM

Villan, I am saying that to both counts in your message. There are cases of so called honour killings which are rare and which are simply murders investigated and dealt with as such.

The most recent 'honour killing' was perpetrated by a white briton who massacred his family, horses, pets and torched the family home rather than face the dishonour of losing them all. I can't remember the name of the case but others will. It was in Reading or Swindon?

People are intimidated into all sorts of things every day. That is why we have laws, courts and police. This is just another islamophobic scare story. Utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:07 AM

Oh grow up you reactionary fool - birdseye - we don't flog people here either so don't start arguing we should take a leaf out of the Saudi's book. Idiot.

Whether you agree with religious courts or not, you must recognise what the debate is about. Religious courts, like the recognised jewish ones, are optional for people who choose an alternative forum and limited to civil, not criminal, issues.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:11 AM

>>Oh grow up you reactionary fool - birdseye - we don't flog people here either so don't start arguing we should take a leaf out of the Saudi's book. Idiot.<<

Roysten, you are now flaming. Please make your points without getting personal.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:11 AM

>>Roysten<<

Sorry it should have been Royston

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:25 AM

The paper is a right wing rag and the reporting and the use of inflammatory visulas is disgraceful. Deliberate and dishonest tension raising.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:33 AM

That's strange Greg. As a brummie, I always thought that The Sunday Mercury was a decent paper. Maybe it has gone downhill since I left Birmingham.
Les

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM

quote,Royston
Whether you agree with religious courts or not, you must recognise what the debate is about. Religious courts, like the recognised jewish ones, are optional for people who choose an alternative forum and limited to civil, not criminal, issues. End of quote.
logically then Jewish people should have these options in Muslim countries,do they? do Christian people have an option in Muslim countries?Do Muslims have this option in Israel?
Royston,I am not reactionary[backward looking].
I am a believer in equality,regardless of creed race or sex,something that the Muslim religion is not.
I shall ignore your childish insults.
if this report is true[which I doubt],I would be concerned unless the freedom and tolerance that IS shown in this country is reciprocated by the allowance and tolerance of other religious courts in Muslim countries.
how much respect and religous tolerance is shown to hindus, jews,christians in Muslim countries.
how much respect is shown in Israel to Muslims and Hindus?
the Muslim religion,in common with many other religons is reactionary[backward looking]it looks back to the Prophet Mahomet,its treatment of women is indefensible.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

Dick, you're throwing out red herrings like a surrealist muckspreader. Stick to the point. Sharia Law in the UK is constrained by British (English or Scottish as it applies) law. Any decisions that contradict British law are unlawful, and potentially criminal. What happens in other countries is as irrelevant as claiming it's wrong for morrismen to black up because Christy Minstrels did.

Villan, Civitas is a rather suspect organisation, shading rightwards from Telegraph style Disgusteds, and it's not safe to use them as an authority on much. Their general thesis is that the Whole Country is Going To The Dogs.

Greg, by "inflammatory visulas" did you mean "inflamed fistulas"? You can get a cream for that nowadays.

I think what it boils down to is:

Whatever Muslims do, some people will object.
Attitudes to women in some Muslim communities are lamentably similar to those in some of the traditional British communities of the BNP heartland.
Ignorance is seldom bliss, but it's always useful to anyone with an axe to grind.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 11:40 AM

1. Sharia 'aspires' to jurisdiction over all areas of law and life, not just civil arbitration.
2. We don't execute rape victims, even in Yorkshire. Nor do we kill people for adultery, homosexuality or apostasy.
3. Even though women are maltreated in our society, 'honour killings' are not sanctioned and lauded by society, religion, law and state.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 11:45 AM

Birdseye, your original argument amounts to;

Some so-called islamic states are not tolerant of other faiths, so we should be intolerant of our British muslim citizens.

Which is the same as saying that Saudi dictatorship is an exemplar for relations with minority faiths.

Both of which are silly. Neither of which you actually believe; I don't get the sense you might be a salafi / wahabi fundamentalist.

If you believe this great country of ours to be better than a tinpot dictatorship then you probably should feel some symapthy with the progressive views on this board.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:01 PM

'fairplay'

Sharia aspires...

No, it does not. Sharia is a name for a system of social rules and procedures for maintaining order in a society.

Sharia cannot aspire to be or do anything.

Some politically motivated creatures use the religion of islam to further their own aspirations for power and control. They do not speak for the 1 billion plus muslims. Hell, go to your local mosque and you won't find 10 people who agree on anything.

If you go to any culture that's about 1000yrs 'behind' the west then you will find things that seem incomprehensible. I know, I've been there! This tells you nothing about anyone or anywhere else and certainly tells you nothing about Birmingham!

People keep spreading crap about muslims and their crazy outdated superstitious beliefs when the world should really fear doctor-murdering christians - resurgence of USA christian terrorists attacking and killing abortion doctors.

12 lunatics killed 3000 people in 9/11 but bush got as many servicemen killed in Iraq plus about 300,000 innocent civilians because God told him that gog and magog were doing the devil's work in Baghdad. Source - Jacques Chirac reporting a conversation with GWB in 2003.

That a few decent folk in UK want a different way of resolving civil disputes before they resort to courts is not what we should be worrying about

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

If it was possible to elect for a determination of a civil dispute (be it contractual, tortious, or matrimonial) under Sharia law, then remedies/defences conferred by UK law would not be available.

The same applie, in my view, to the Beth Din, which is why in my view it should not be possible to contract out of one's legal rights.

Mediation is a different kettle of fish (whatever law applies). The resolution reached in mediation is binding becase of agreement of that resolution, not the rules applicable in it, in just the same way as civil legal proceedings may be settled by agreement.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:27 PM

Fair view, Richard. Everybody else please note.

Why does this have to be, in some other people's minds, another "bash the muslims" festival.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:13 PM

>>Their general thesis is that the Whole Country is Going To The Dogs<<

It already has gone to the dogs, but nothing to do with Sharia Law

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:18 PM

Royston,I did not say that.
I said that the Muslim religion ,
expects tolerance but is not tolerant of other religions,the same applies to the jewish religion,if in the country of israel,they do not allow sharia law,or any other religious courts.
both religions expect other peole to be tolerant ,but are not tolerant themselves,they need to put their owen houses in order.
tolerance is a two way street.neither am I Muslim bashing,I said that if this newspaper report was true[which I doubted]I would be concerned,being concerned is not Muslim bashing.
so Royston,p### off,and stop putting words into my mouth.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:37 PM

It is too late to worry, this is not OUR country anymore.
Please don't bother to take the time to call me a racist because I AM NOT! Just a realist.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:56 PM

I personally do not want to see the growth of any courts no matter who are what they represent, other than British Law Courts.

If you go into other countries you should live life the way they do. If you don't like it, then you should go back to your own country.

I also think that you shouldn't be allowed in anybody elses country unless you have a job to go to.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:04 PM

Birdseye, I am not putting words in your mouth, you are!

both religions expect other peole to be tolerant ,but are not tolerant themselves,they need to put their owen houses in order.

All the religious texts of the abrahamic faiths preach tolerance and respect to all. It is some people that fail to live up to that and who take selective quotes from Torah, Qur'an and Bible to justify their own wrong-thinking.

Because GW Bush murders thousands 'cos God told him to, or because some christians gun down doctrs, should we infer something about the minds of all Christians?

Should we expect the peaceful muslim citizens of Birmingham to reform the middle east before we treat them with respectful interest? Or are you saying (above) that until the Muslim world and faith (of which you know nothing) appear to act as you would wish, that we should reserve the right to exact some sort of revenge or punishment on our own Muslim citizens?

Is Islam intolerant?

Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other (not hate each other) Qur'an 49:13

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error Qur'an 2:256

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62

Discuss, but for god's sake make sure you actually know something first!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM

Skipy

It's no more or less your country than it is mine or than it is a hard-working Muslim or Jew or Rastafarian or Atheist or whatever. We're all in this together, mate.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

I am not your "mate"! If I ever meet you I will decide as you will if we are to be "mates"!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:49 PM

If Sharia doesn't 'aspire' to total jurisdiction, it certainly asserts a claim to it!

According to Bawer, 40 % of Muslims in Britain favour the imposition of Sharia Law.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:50 PM

Royston,
do muslim countries allow other religious courts,to make decisions,in muslim countries,are jews allowed to hold their own religious courts in muslim countries.
and are muslims allowed to practise their religious courts,in Israel.
please answer these questions.
if the answer is no,then they expect to be treated in a more tolerant manner,than their own religions practice in the countries where they are the established religion.
now provide us with facts.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM

this is not OUR country anymore

It never has been, skipy. Nice to see you posting again btw:-) It has always belonged to the rich and powerful. Us plebs, of all faiths, need to stick together. The press are owned by the powerful and use these stories to keep us fighting between ourselves. They hope that by being devisive we will not notice the real injustice. Unfortunately most people do seem to be fooled most of the time:-(

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:14 PM

Captain, isn't that true of all organised religions, including the religious right in the USA, who, for example, assert that fornication is a crime, and that persons carrying out legal abortions are murderers?

It seems to me that all religions seek special privileges. Take "faith" schools, for example - all of them.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:39 PM

DeG - Thank you!

Birdseye...get with it! No I do not think that we should be showing any favouritism or consideration to despots or countries which allow bigotry.

We are talking about being fair here, to our citizens. What happens in Saudi / Pakistan / Iran...is not relevant at all.

I say again, I hate intolerance wherever it appears and I will fight to stamp it out in MY country. Let the others fester. Because country 'A' is rotten, doesn't justify us following suit.

fairplay...Bruce Bawer is a right-wing polemicist. He does not claim to make an evidence-based argument, he argues a personal conviction. That he says something does not make it so. Anyway, if you ask a person of faith if they regard their moral/ethical code as being "right" then they are bound to say yes.

From my extensive immersion in Islamic culture here and abroad, I would tell you that probably 40% of Muslims say Sharia law should be ovserved by Muslims, wherever they find themselves, not forced on non-muslim populations; and that is a vital distinction. You can take what I say or you can leave it but it is no more or less valid than Bawer's views or your own views. If you only listen to Bawer and his like then you have limited input to work with.

Islam, like Judaism, is not a proselytising religion, it does not canvas believers and does not seek to impose itself on the unwilling. (See references above). When has anyone ever seen a shouty Imam in a shopping street, or had turban-wielding shia clerics handing out "Umm Al Watchtower" door to door? Only nutty firebrand lunatics make it onto CNN / FOX / SKY etc and their inane ramblings have little or no bearing on the lives and views of over a billion Muslim people.

By the way I can absolutely promise each and every one of you that if you wanted to go to your local mosque and just sit and watch or talk to people or the Imam about any questions or worries then you will be absolutely welcomed with open arms. Give it a go. You only have to stow your shoes at the door!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:45 PM

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM

DeG, I just made one comment, that does not mean that I am "posting again" I would like to but Joe will take me out because can, so he will.
I do read threads most nights but know that my joining in is pointless.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM

I never suggested that we should follow suit or show intolerance,but I think we should be under no illusions about religions, be they muslim or jewish, or right wing american christians[as mentioned by Richard Bridge] that show intolerance to others but expect tolerance themselves.
for the record when I lived in Nottingham,I regularly went to my local sikh community centre,for my midday meal,and I observed and fitted in with their custom,of not sitting next to or on the same table as an indian woman.
I do think it would help,if the Muslim and the Jewish religion extended the same tolerance to other religions in their own countries,as they expect to be shown in England.
Royston,I see you still havent answered my question,I would suggest that before you insult people[and read meanings into other peoples posts] on this forum ,that you read their pots carefully.
I am not a reactionary,but muslim fundamentalists are,and their treatment of women is outdated,backward looking and reactionary.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM

The oppression (maybe I mean enthrallment) of women by Islam - and I do think it exists - is I think alarming, but only somewhat more so than other religions - for example Hassidic beliefs impose many obligations on women and so indeed do many branches of Christianity.

Unless it is underpinned however by some sort of law, the acceptance of that oppression by Moslem is at most a matter of cultural conditioning and peer pressure (possibly illegal peer pressure) and ultimately therefore is voluntary.

Another reason why I oppose religious courts.

Does anyone know when the last petition for jactitation of marriage was heard in an English ecclesiastical court?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 03:41 AM

Royston

If you think Islam is non-proselytizing, you haven't been to Brick Lane or Hyde Park recently.

The best that non-Muslims can hope for under Islam is a state of Dhimmitude. Europe's Muslims are becoming more assertive as they grow in numbers and power.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:07 AM

Yes, keep ALL forms of religion out of education, politics and legal matters. Most especially where anything to do with women and children is involved.

Bit of a tangent, but there was quite an interesting doco. the other night demonstrating the importance of racial tolerance within an Islamic school: where a white girl was being excluded and teased by the other girls for not being a 'proper' Muslim, the school took action straight away to eradicate the exclusion based on skin colour.

Though, the fact that an eight year old child believes she will burn in Hellfire if she doesn't cover up her hair, is more than a little sad.. And I think, is worth considering in relation to Richards comments above. It looked a very good school, and I was interested to see how seriously the teachers took the bullying, but I dislike intensely all forms of brainwashing.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

...perhaps these lovely folks are just misunderstood:

Taliban buying children for suicide bombers

By Sara A. Carter (Contact)
Originally published 04:45 a.m., July 2, 2009, updated 02:11 p.m., July 2, 2009         

Pakistan's top Taliban leader, Baitullah Mehsud, is buying children as young as 7 to serve as suicide bombers in the growing spate of attacks against Pakistani, Afghan and U.S. targets, U.S. Defense Department and Pakistani officials say.

A Pakistani official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named because of the sensitive nature of the topic, said the going price for child bombers was $7,000 to $14,000 - huge sums in Pakistan, where per-capita income is about $2,600 a year.

"[Mehsud] has turned suicide bombing into a production output, not unlike [the way] Toyota outputs cars," a U.S. Defense Department official told reporters recently. He spoke on the condition that he not be named because of ongoing intelligence efforts to catch Mehsud, a prime target for a U.S. and Pakistani anti-Taliban campaign.

An apparent U.S. effort to kill Mehsud last week failed. On Sunday, the Pakistani government offered a reward of about $615,300 for information leading to the capture of Mehsud, dead or alive. The U.S. State Department has offered a bounty of $5 million for Mehsud, who is thought to be hiding in the tribal areas near the Afghan border.

Suicide bombings have become frequent in Pakistan in the past year, including high-profile attacks on hotels frequented by Westerners, as well as on Pakistani police and military installations. There has also been a spate of such attacks directed at U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan.

The U.S. official said the price depends on how quickly the bomber is needed and how close the child is expected to get to the target. "[Mehsud] produces these suicide bombers, which are sold or bartered, which can be used by [Afghan Taliban leader Mullah] Omar's Taliban or ... other groups," the U.S. official said.

In some cases, he said, the children are kidnapped and then sold to Mehsud.

Using child suicide bombers "is the grim reality of the Taliban Frankenstein that now threatens to overwhelm the Pakistani state," said Bruce Riedel, a Brookings Institution scholar who chaired a review of Pakistan-Afghanistan strategy for President Obama.

Efforts to reach a spokesman for Mehsud were not successful.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:28 AM

If true, just to despicable for words.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Ah yes,

Thanks PDQ,

More proof I see that Islam is the religion of violence murder etc ...


... just a quick question though, ... if Moslems are all hell bent on killing everyone else and don't care if they die in the process, then how do you explain the fact that Pakistan, an Islamic state which, by all accounts is full of Moslems - quite a lot of them - and run by Moslems, and has a nuclear arsenal, yet hasn't nuked anyone?

What's goin on?

They've had nukes for ages ...

Is it because they're just deviously waiting for the right moment?



And does it have any relevance to this thread?

Hmmm....


I'm going to go and think about both of these difficult questions.