Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 20 Oct 25 - 04:06 AM

CJB666 wrote There does but appear to be any other sources. Aha - an email elicited the title: "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960.

Just to people know: The Reed company was busy with popular history sorts of books around 1960, but their level of scholarship is not very high. They are not aimed at the scholarly market. (This doesn't contradict what you way, but I imported several of their books and was... less than impressed.)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 03:06 AM

Kaikopere (I presume J.A.):

Thanks for the added ideas!

Were you the author of the circa 2002 (?) page about "Wellerman" on folksong.org.nz? If so: What a revision! Good on you.

Also: Can you say anything about where the Tommy Wood quotation, via Mike Harding, comes from? It's similar, but not the same as what Mike Harding posted in this thread. Did re-tell the story from Tommy Wood to you or somewhere?

Mike Harding, from this thread (paraphrased from remembered speech, or copied from text/email?):

In response to the world-wide interest and in preparation for a radio programme on New Zealand folk I contacted Tommy. From the source... 'From memory I came across the poem in a book on NZ sailors and as a folk singer in those days was collecting songs to sing at the clubs. I had mentioned it to Neil Colquhoun, then a fellow club member, who knew about it and hummed a rough guide to the tune. It became my song at the time, singing it at various clubs around until finally singing it on the album 'Songs of a Young Country'...unfortunately I have not got the book anymore. All I can remember was stories connected to whaling, exploring NZ and immigration ships, containing personal letters of life on board these ships, including poems...black and white sketches of ships, sailors etc...it was fairly old then [late 1960s?]! My late wife Margaret was a librarian and she brought it home after it had been removed off the shelves...The Wellerman was an actual poem in the book but not quite in rhyme I had to adjust some of the words to fit the tune that Neil and I managed to put together..'.

Mike Harding, from from webpage on _New Zealand Folk Songs?_:

...Mike Harding later spoke to him about it. He told Mike...

"I came across the poem in a book on NZ sailors. Unfortunately I have not got the book anymore. All I can remember was stories connected to whaling, exploring NZ and immigration ships, containing personal letters of life on board these ships, including poems... black and white sketches of ships, sailors etc. The Wellerman was an actual poem in the book but not quite in rhyme so I had to adjust some of the words."

I'm particularly fascinated by the part in the first quote that says, "I had mentioned it [i.e. the poem I/Tommy found in a book] to Neil Colquhoun, then a fellow club member, who knew about it and hummed a rough guide to the tune." So, Colquhoun knew about this poem, too? Sounds strange if Tommy came across it by chance in a book his wife brought home. And: Who hummed a rough guide to the tune? Neil or Tommy? Without a comma in the sentence, the grammar implies Neil hummed the tune, but commas are pesky things. I guess it was Tommy who hummed a rough tune. Is it the tune Tommy recorded in 1971 on the album? If so, why did Neil sing a different tune in 1969?

***
I just edited Wikipedia, incidentally. Someone had recently added to the article the "information" that the song was written "circa 1870." Their cited source was some article in a law journal about whether "viral shanties" can be copyrighted and in which the authors stated, without any source given, that "Wellerman" was "understood" to be 1870. Evidently they thought the facts didn't matter, as they wanted to just make their point about the legal status of hypothetical "shanties" composed in the 1870s.

Such articles as this one by the legal scholars were surely part of the fallout after 2021 #shantytok when journalists were jumping to write about the song and simply repeating non-reviewed statements that probably had their ultimate origin in the OLD old folksong.org.nz page.

Everyone reading here should note that Kaikopere's page on the site also includes audio of the 1969 NZBC broadcast. Fascinatingly, Colquhoun sings "Wellers' men." (I think that bit was omitted, for understandable reasons, from this Mudcat posting.)

Please forgive any mistakes I've made—it's getting hard to keep track of everything at this point!

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 04:07 AM

Gibb Sahib wrote: If so, why did Neil sing a different tune in 1969?

For what it's worth, John Roberts, who had better musical sense than I do, suggested to me (in a private communication) that Tommy's tune is basically Colquhoun's done in major (or that Colquhoun's is Tommy's converted to Aeolian, expressed as Dorian in Colquhoun's guitar arrangement). Just another little complication.

John Archer's work did reveal one very important point: That Colquhoun's tune preceded "The Lightning Tree."

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 08:17 AM

Does anyone has this recorded … ?

Date: 26 Jan 22 - 09:53 AM

BBC Radio 2 The Folk Show with Mark Radcliffe 19 January 2020

Bristol shanty singers the Longest Johns talk about surfing the recent wave of online shanties, and recording their new album, Smoke & Oakum.

23 days left to listen on BBC Sounds.

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 09:30 AM

see also: Michael Brown's blog post:
https://www.ngataonga.org.nz/explore-stories/stories/sound/soon-may-the-wellerma

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 01:47 PM

Michael Brown’s blog is wonderful. As well as an early arrangement of Wellerman there are 7 folk song programmes from the NZBC dating from 1969. The only fly in the ointment is a bloody tin whistle played too loud and out of tune.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 02:17 PM

The name of the ship was the William O'T

Is somebody extracting the michael?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 02:29 PM

Jack Campin wrote: Is somebody extracting the michael?

It does sound that way, but the name Billy of Tea is also problematic. The Australian National Dictionary cites only one use of "billy"-as-in-billycan prior to 1849 (although that one use was in New Zealand). The Otago whaling operation shut down in 1841.

There is no time for a Weller Brothers to have had a ship called the Billy of Tea. It's an anachronism.

Not the biggest problem with the song, to be sure, but if one is going to claim the song as from the Weller Brothers era, it's something that has to be explained.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 21 Oct 25 - 02:29 PM

The YouTube links in Michael’s blog post do not work, but all the other links do.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 09:12 AM

Re: Billy - I thought this was jargon for an empty can in which to boil water over an open fire for a brew of tea. But also current in Australia. I read that if tea leaves were in short supply just boiling water within the tea-stained billy can would be enough to create a weak brew.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 11:10 AM

Idle speculation is only worth so much, but if I may be allowed some idea chat:

Toward the end of hunting a theoretical source text, my current thought is to expect something like this—

Two stanzas, which suggested a pattern.

First stanza
Begins with some variation on "a ship that went to sea / put to sea / was sailing on the sea." Its second line tells the name of the ship, something that rhymes with "sea." This is a common way to begin a "Golden Vanity" rendition, though it narrows things somewhat by eliminating version that open by saying e.g. "there once was a skipper who was boasting on the quay."

Second stanza
Begins with some form of saying that "they/she/ the ship" "had not been / hadn't been" sailing for but [X length of time]. This narrows it down to another pattern that is consistent in Golden Vanity variations.

"Wellerman" follows both of these patterns for its first two stanzas.

It could be narrowed further by looking for another pattern, though less common, where the variation forms three rhyming lines, followed by the "Lowlands." The more frequently encountered (in my experience) rhyme pattern has two rhyming lines followed by two lines about Lowlands.

To reiterate, "Wellerman" has 1) a stanza about a ship going to sea, followed by a rhyming name of the ship 2) a stanza about the length of time at sea with the characteristic grammar "had not been" 3) sets of three rhyming lines.

The third characteristic is a wild card though. The writer(s) of "Wellerman" may have found the sample fragment in a two-rhyming-lines form, then went to references other versions of Golden Vanity, found three-line forms, and adopted that idea.

Another helpful earmark could be whether the same text elsewhere plants the idea of a "blow, my bully boys, blow" chorus for mariners' songs. That's another wild card since it's a familiar trope anyway.

A an example that fits some, not all, of these criteria, Verrill's _The Real Story of a Whaler_ (1916) begins a chapter with a stanza that, though we recognize it as a verse of Golden Vanity, could just as well appear as a stanza of poetry:

There once was a ship in the northern sea,
And the name of the ship was the Green Willow Tree.
As we sailed in the lowlands, lies so low,
And oh, we sailed in the lowlands O.

Elsewhere in the book are quotes two variations of "Blow, my bully boys, blow."

The text minimally includes other features described by Tommy Wood: stories about whaling and illustrations.

It lacks my hoped for criterion of a second stanza and three rhyming lines (each of which, again, could be gathered by cross checking other sources for Golden Vanity). Yet it makes up for this with a poetic rhythm that fits "Wellerman" perfectly.

I think it may be useful to search deliberately with variations on the formulation "had not been."

More idly, some collected versions of Golden Vanity use a phrase describing how the boy (who went into the water and hoped to drill a hole in the opposing ship) "bowed down," which reminds me of the "Wellerman" line about "her bow dipped down."

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 11:48 AM

CJB666 wrote: Re: Billy - I thought this was jargon for an empty can in which to boil water over an open fire for a brew of tea. But also current in Australia. I read that if tea leaves were in short supply just boiling water within the tea-stained billy can would be enough to create a weak brew.

This isn't the issue I'm raising. Yes, this is what a billy is. Witness the use of the term in, for instance, "Waltzing Matilda."

But "Waltzing Matilda" was written in 1895, by which time the term was well-established. The Weller Brothers pulled out of Otago in 1841, only two years after the very first attested use of "billy"/"billycan."

It is almost certain that no one, in the Weller Brothers period, would have named a ship the "Billy of Tea," because the name wouldn't mean anything. Of course the ship's name could have changed in oral tradition, but its use in a song about the Wellers is an anachronism.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 02:14 PM

With reference to sketches of sailors and whales etc. in the rare children’s book referred to above I’m reminded that the Alexander Turnbull Museum in Wellington actually has the originals. I’ll try and find the reference.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 02:40 PM

https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22267101?search%5Bpath%5D=items&search%5Btext%5D=Whaling+early+new+zealand

Whaling in early New Zealand / by A.W. Reed ; illustrations by Conrad Frieboe.

Date - 1960
By - Reed, A. W. (Alexander Wyclif), 1908-1979
Series - New Zealand pioneers series
Notes - Includes index.

Bagnall, R236
Other Titles - Whaling in New Zealand
Publisher - Wellington [N.Z.] : Reed, 1960.
Format - 31 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 03:07 PM

Conrad Freboe was prolific illustrator of children’s books.

Search ‘Conrad Freboe whaling’ …

BOOK
Whaling in early New Zealand / by A.W. Reed ; illustrations by Conrad Frieboe.
Reed, A. W. (Alexander Wyclif), 1908-1979
Wellington N.Z. : Reed, 1960

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 03:07 PM

CJB666 wrote: Whaling in early New Zealand / by A.W. Reed ; illustrations by Conrad Frieboe.

FWIW, when I was researching "Wellerman," I examined a great many books from New Zealand and tried to trace others. My best guess is that the book is not one of the Reed books (most of which are really not reliable) but The First White Born Born in Otago: The Story of TB Kennard by Herries Beattie. Unfortunately, this book is extremely hard to find in the United States, and I don't dare try international ILL these days, but anyone in New Zealand might wish to look.

I'm not saying to ignore the Reed book if you can find it easily, but I imported two Reed books (their histories of New Zealand and Otago) and frankly wished I hadn't. They weren't worth the shipping costs.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 03:12 PM

Conrad Frieboe - note spelling. The original illustrations are at the Turnbull. I thought they were online, but maybe not. Maybe Michael Brown can add them to his page.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 03:21 PM

I have to opine that the mention from New Zealander Mike Harding that his late wife found illustrations of shore whaling in an old children’s book seems to indicate this was the Reed book. After all it is a children’s book, it was published in NZ, and Reed did publish such books. Also Conrad Frieboe was a prolific children’s illustrator. It could well be a children’s book discarded from a school’s library.

RBW mentions another obscure and rare book The Story of TB Kennard. I would opine that this is not a children’s book at all and its rarity unlikely to be in a school’s library. I don’t think this is a candidate for the tome being researched.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 04:10 PM

Since we're having a qualifications argument here, I will point out that I learned this song in about 1981, from someone who had learned it in New Zealand in the 1970s (very possibly from Neil Colquhoun himself, though there's no way I can test that now), and I started researching "Wellerman" long before it became a hit.

And the typical Reed volume is not a children's books, although they targeted schools. Moreover, they are easy enough to come by that if "Wellerman" were in one of them, someone would have spotted it by now.

The reason I cited the book I did is because it is cited quite a bit in other New Zealand whaling books. Kennard grew up around the Weller settlement, and (IIRC) he kept a record of poetry and such that he heard. Studying everything I could lay my hands on, it appears that by far the likeliest ultimate source for "Wellerman" is the Kennard book.

That is, assuming that (A) there was such a song in the 1840s (dubious), (B) that Tommmy Woods correctly recalled his source after many years (dubious, if one knows anything about human memory), and (C) that all parties are telling the truth.

I don't say "Wellerman" is in The First White Boy Born in Otago; I say that if it actually comes from the Weller period, that that is the place you should start looking.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 05:58 PM

I've placed an ILL request for The First White Boy Born in Otago and will report back here when I have it in hand and had a chance to peruse it.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 06:29 PM

Wm wrote: I've placed an ILL request for The First White Boy Born in Otago and will report back here when I have it in hand and had a chance to peruse it.

Thank you! I'll be very interested in what you learn. All I have, after all, is a chain of logic based on a lot of very low-quality data. :-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 06:40 PM

The first white boy born in Otago : story of T.B. Kennard / by H. Beattie is also available in the National Library of Australia. NLA lends to other Australian libraries, but prefers to provide digital copies!

I have friends in Canberra, including a few shanty singers & will see if someone can view it.

sandra

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST, CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 10:43 PM

Just as an aside the Reed book that I believe Mike Hardings wife acquired is listed in the Turnbull archive as a children’s book.

Here’s a link to the sketches …

https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.501881

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 10:51 PM

Another link to the Conrad Frieboe sketches …

https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22785769

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 25 - 11:11 PM

The Conrad Frieboe sketches in detail…

https://natlib.govt.nz/items?i%5Bcollection_any_id%5D=501881&i%5B-category%5D=Groups

Showing 1-15 of 15 results for “”
*                 Filtered by:
*                 Collection: Frieboe, Conra...?
*                 Groups?

1 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Jacky Guard catches whales from off shore. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-009
Description: Illustration shows sealer Jacky Guard, having climbed a cliff at Tory Channel, seeing two right or baleen whales near the shore below him. The illustration was made in preparation for "Whaling in early New Zealand", Reed Publishing Ltd, 1960. Supplied title is taken from that of the corresponding image in the book "Whaling in early New Zealand". Quantity: 1 drawing(s). Physical Description: Ink drawing on card, 378 x 270 mm.

2 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[A day at Jacky Guard's whaling station. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-010
Description: Illustration shows a large whale in the foreground, lying on its side after having been caught by whalers in a dinghy. In the background is Jacky Guard's whaling station at Te Awaiti.
SNIP

3 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[The first callers at New Zealand. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-008
Description: Illustration shows a group of whalers standing on the shore at the Bay of Islands, with Maori helping to land the dinghies.
SNIP

4 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Whaling in Tory Channel today. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-017
Description: Illustration shows a speedboat in the foreground, with a man standing by a mounted harpoon in its prow. In the left distance is a similar baot, and two whales swimming in the water.
SNIP

5 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Whalers in the Pacific. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-003
Description: Illustration shows seven men in a rowboat; one is throwing a harpoon towards a sperm whale.
SNIP

6 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Why whales are hunted. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-005
Description: Illustration shows the silhouette of a whale, flanked by products using parts of the whale: margarine, whale meat, perfume, fertiliser, lubricant, whalebone brushes, soap and processed food for livestock.
SNIP

7 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Modern whaling. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-016
Description: Illustration shows a whaling ship in the foreground, steaming towards other ships in the distance. The foreground ship is towing three inflated whale carcasses on each side of it, in the water.
SNIP

8 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Life on a whaler. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-007
Description: Illustration shows the occupants of a rowing boat in the foreground, being lashed by the tail of a whale they have harpooned. In the distance is their sailing ship, with a second rowing boat approaching from it.
SNIP

9 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[The whaler at home. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-013
Description: Illustration shows a whaler seated at a wooden table in his home, while his Maori wife and children, and two older Maori are engaged in domestic activities. A boy helps the whaler wind or tie rope, while the wife and her daughter are engaged in food preparation beside a fire.
SNIP

10 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Catching and rendering down at sea. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-006
Description: Illustration shows whalers on the deck of a whaling ship, handling whale carcasses and pouring melted whale oil into moulds.
SNIP

11 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[The harpoon gun. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-015
Description: Illustration shows a whaler standing on deck, aiming a harpoon on its stand, towards to sea. At the top of the page are three different items: a older-style harpoon with a barbed tip, a hand-held harpoon gun, and a harpoon that is fired from it (with an explosive tip).
SNIP

12 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Different kinds of whales. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-004
Description: Illustration shows scale drawings of five different whale species: blue whale, fin whale, right whale, sperm whale and humpback whale. At the right are a lance and a blubber spade.
SNIP

13 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[The value of their catches. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-014
Description: Illustration shows the deck of an American whaling ship, with whalers using blubber spades to cut blubber from a whale carcass.
SNIP

14 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[More about the shore whalers. ca 1959-1960]
Date: 1959 - 1960
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-012
Description: Illustration shows a whaler using a blubber spade to cut into the carcass of a whale, at a shore whaling station. In the background a man is preparing a pulley for use to lift whale blubber or carcasses. At the right, others melt down the blubber in a tripot.
SNIP

15 Image
Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :Early shore whalers and Maori
Date: [ca 1959-1960]
From: Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Original drawings for "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]
Reference: A-407-011
Description: Illustration shows a whaler and two Maori men doing farming work at a shore whaling station, while a group of wahine are seated further away near a cottage. One tane is digging with a ko (wooden foot hoe), while the whaler in the foreground is about to cut grasses with a long-bladed knife. The illustration was made in preparation for 'Whaling in early New Zealand', Reed Publishing Ltd, 1960. Title supplied by Library. Original title was taken from the corresponding image in the book "Whaling in early New Zealand". Quantity: 1 drawing(s). Physical Description: Ink drawing on card, 378 x 270 mm. Processing information: Description updated in December 2024 as part of reparative description work. Previous title" Frieboe, Conrad, d 1989 :[Early shore whalers and the Maoris. ca 1959-1960]

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Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 23 Oct 25 - 11:25 AM

No-one has yet remarked on the similarity of the Wellerman tune to the theme tune of the Brit kids t.v. programme Follyfoot.

Michael Brown writes "

After its TikTok fame, commentators pointed out that the chorus melody was strikingly like that of “The Lightning Tree”, written as the theme for 1971 UK children’s television series Follyfoot. The series had started screening in New Zealand in July 1971, almost a year prior to the Song of a Young Country anthology coming out.[viii] It was also released as a 7” single. This timing begged the question: had Colquhoun ‘borrowed’ the catchy chorus from “The Lightning Tree”?"

The Settlers, “The Lightning Tree” (1971). Theme song for the series Follyfoot (1971-74). YouTube.

https://youtu.be/8vDZHANTXW8?si=lKakJjY4ESpojvO6

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 Oct 25 - 11:48 AM

Borrowed is unlikely as Colquhoun was already broadcast singing it on NZBC in 1969, long before The Lightning Tree.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 Oct 25 - 12:09 PM

Reinhard wrote: Borrowed is unlikely as Colquhoun was already broadcast singing it on NZBC in 1969, long before The Lightning Tree.

I think it's now established that Colquhoun is the ultimate source; he did not borrow the tune. The question is whether he originated it.

On that point, I am genuinely torn. I've already talked on this point, somewhere in this thread, about this, but it might bear repeating. The two gems of Colquhoun's Song of a Young Country (both book and recording) are "Wellerman" and "Davy Lowston," neither of which he claimed credit for. I think this is pretty much universally agreed: those are the two songs that are by far the most widely sung.

But no one seems interested in investigating the other songs in Song of a Young Country. They are relevant. Colquhoun's hands are all over that book. He wrote the entire song "Murderers Rock," and he copyrighted eight other tunes in the book. At least four other tunes he "reconstructed."

I don't know how many of you have listened to the Song of a Young Country recording. I've had it for forty years, and listened to it many, many times. And Colquhoun's admitted tunes are not at all memorable. Some of his texts I remember (e.g. "Hang down your head, Dick Burgess" from "Murderers Rock"), but the tunes mostly don't do it for me.

Whereas "Wellerman" clearly has a great tune. If Colquhoun wrote it, why is it so much better than his other melodies?

Of course this isn't proof of anything; there are plenty of One Hit Wonders in the world. But it is truly strange, if Colquhoun made the thing up, that it's so much more interesting than all the tunes he admitted to. And, further, note that he was willing to admit to making up tunes -- so why not this one?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 Oct 25 - 02:15 PM

But did Colquhoun copyright the Wellerman tune, i.e. is that one of the "copyrighted eight other tunes"?

I just bought Song of a Young Country from iTunes, and the accompanying booklet does state for Soon May the Wellerman Come "Anon / Neil Colquhoun / Copyright Control".

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 Oct 25 - 02:43 PM

Reinhard wrote: But did Colquhoun copyright the Wellerman tune, i.e. is that one of the "copyrighted eight other tunes"?

He didn't copyright it. In the second edition of the book (the one that goes with the recording), it's listed as "Words: Anon. Music: Anon."

The back page of the book is a list of sources. The source for "Wellerman" is "P.D. F. R. Woods" for both words and music.

The third edition rearranges the information a little, but doesn't change it.

The LP lists the song simply as "Trad." (Of course, the LP uses Tommy's tune, which is not Colquhoun's.)

It is not one of the eight copyrighted items, which are (there are actually more than ten; I counted too fast:
The Black Swans
Digger's Farewell
End of the Earth
How to Dodge the Hard Times
I'm a Young Man
John Smith, A.B.
Murderers Rock (the one for which he also wrote the words)
Run for Your Life
Talking Swag
Trade of Kaori Gum
Wakamarina

Of these, I think the only one I've ever heard from any other source is "John Smith, A.B."

"Wakamarina," or "The Wakamarina," is an interesting case. The words are by Charles R. Thatcher (Colquhoun is uncertain of the attribution to Thatcher, but the attribution is correct; it's verified from other sources). Thatcher set his texts to popular tunes, so there is an original melody. Yet it was set to music twice, once by Colquhoun and once by Les Cleveland. Even more interesting, Colquhoun printed hist two tunes twice (once in Song of a Young Country and once in Bailey and Roth) -- and the tunes aren't the same; one is 4/4, one is 6/8.

I just bought Song of a Young Country from iTunes, and the accompanying booklet does state for Soon May the Wellerman Come "Anon / Neil Colquhoun / Copyright Control".

Interesting. But, even were he alive, he'd have a hard time enforcing that, given that his own publications claimed he got it from F. R. Woods.

Maybe he's claiming an arrangement credit. That would actually be valid, in a way, because Colquhoun's arrangement is not instantly obvious -- as I stated earlier, he uses a Dorian rather than an Aeolian chord pattern for the verse. (Something most of the recent recordings don't observe. I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person left, at least outside New Zealand, who sings it the way Colquhoun meant it to be sung.)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 02:15 AM

Reinhard,

"Borrowed is unlikely as Colquhoun was already broadcast singing it on NZBC in 1969, long before The Lightning Tree."

Well, that was not known until very recently. In my opinion, that is precisely the reason why this thread was revived. Although, CJB happened not to notice that.

Michael Brown, whose head is in this subject (wrote a thesis on it etc) got wind of the freshly discovered/remembered 1969 archival recording and wrote the linked blog piece (August 2025). He even cites this Mudcat thread by way of contextualizing the discussion. The part he cites begins with my 17 May 2021 post, discussing "Lightning Tree" and giving credit to Bob Waltz for that information.

Kaikopere, I guess, came to know of Brown's blog and then revised his webpage by October 2025. Then he reposted some of the material here without mentioning Brown's blog. That's why *I* put the link to Brown's blog—after Bob wrote "John Archer's [Kaikopere] work did reveal one very important point: That Colquhoun's tune preceded 'The Lightning Tree.'" In other words, the lack of attribution to Brown caused a mix up. Correct me if I am wrong so I can duly apologize. I don't mean to offend. As someone who does scholarship, I simply have seen the bad results of when we lose track of the chain of information and ideas. After all, that's what started the whole Wellerman fiasco: A webpage had loosely called Wellerman a 19th century whaler men's song, that was Googled up by everyone in Jan 2021, and now 99% of sources say that.
***

Now, whereas what I just said may sound reasonable and valuing of rigorous attention to empirical data... I'm about to say something that will make me sound contradictory and possibly even a looney: !!!!

I'm having trouble accepting that there is no relationship between "Lightning Tree" and "Wellerman" tunes. Yes, despite the evidence that is (now) right there in front of us: Colquhoun recorded Wellerman in October or November 1969 and Lightning Tree came out in 1971.

So, I can understand when Bob writes, "The question is whether he originated [the Wellerman tune]. ... On that point, I am genuinely torn."

Whereas I'm compelled to accept the difference in dates--1969 comes before 1971!--dates aren't the only type of evidence in the mix. I also have my ears. Both the Lightning Tree's and the Wellerman's chorus, in my ears, including the shift to the major VI chord at the beginning, is a "folk-pop" thing. They are products of that same general time.

While I'll have to accept that Lightning Tree did not directly give way to Wellerman, the similarity is too great for me to (yet) accept a flat "coincidence." I'd like to know if there were other songs going around at the time that could have influenced both. (Or, if even Lightning Tree's writer heard Colquhoun! Because that is still more likely than sheer "coincidence.")

The Settlers (performers of Lightning Tree) say the brother of the producer of Follyfoot wrote Lightning Tree: Francis Essex. In an interview, Settlers member Cindy Kent said that Francis Essex took inspiration from the Settlers' own cover version of "The Rhythm of Life" from the April 1969 musical film _Sweet Charity_.

...it was Tony [Essex] who was the producer [on Follyfoot], but he’d obviously shared the idea of the programme with [his brother] Francis. Francis happened to come along to the Royal Festival Hall in London, where we did our annual concert, and the song that we used to end the show with was an amazing version of Rhythm Of Life, from Sweet Charity. Very much like The Swingle Singers, with that “dobedoo” idea going on in the background! He went home and wrote The Lightning Tree based on our version of Rhythm of Life. And then they got in touch and asked if we’d do it… (Bracketed editorial marks are mine.)
https://hauntedgeneration.co.uk/tag/the-lightning-tree/

Now, I can kind of see the resemblance between "Rhythm of Life" and "Lightning Tree." But only so far as I could see it influencing Lightning Tree, whereas Kent says Essex "wrote The Lightning Tree based on our version of Rhythm of Life."
Here's The Settlers with a medley of "Rhythm of Life" and Lightning Tree"
https://youtu.be/x7wMfUY5jsQ?si=9mJ_ayoZyFpzPQ9P

OK, well, Rhythm of Life does have the chord progression, starting with the major VI chord in the minor key and the (minor) tonic melody note at the start. So, similar shape. I don't know when The Settlers started performing their cover of Rhythm of Life at annual concerts in London. They "used to end the show," implying repetition, 1969 and 1970 annual concerts had it, and Essex heard in in 1970 or 1971. Nor do I know when The Settlers first got inspired by The Rhythm of Life, but evidently a big broadcast of Diana Ross and The Temptations performing it on 12 November 1969 gave the song a big boost. Here's that performance:
https://youtu.be/-EZwyRfFyzg?si=bPkjtXfO_kl_ZgZS
The main point of interest appears first at 0:28. It becomes a vamp toward the end of the performance.

In some way, The Settlers had technically put out a similar song to Lightning Tree before 1971's premiere of Follyfoot. But am I saying Colquhoun got Wellerman from The Settlers' Rhythm of Life? No. Still, the fact that you could go from the 1966 composition "Rhythm of Life" to "Lightning Tree" via the sense of contemporary music of TV producer Essex helps to make sense of what might have been "in the water" in the late 60s to inspire Wellerman.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 02:22 AM

Re: “I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person left, at least outside New Zealand, who sings it the way Colquhoun meant it to be sung.”

Listening to the 7 NZBC programmes from 1969 featuring Colquhoun’s singing and arrangements I would hope that you don’t sing it like him. His arrangements and singing of many of the songs are appalling, out of time, out of key, and lacking rhythm, and that damned tin whistle drowning everything. I think they do an arrangement of Blood Red Roses - but as unlike a sea chanty as I ever heard.

Whilst his collecting and arrangements might be deemed to be pioneering they are truly appalling. And there is no excuse because at that time New Zealand was well populated with musicians and singers from the U.K. and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 07:08 AM

Listening to the 7 NZBC programmes from 1969 featuring Colquhoun’s singing and arrangements I would hope that you don’t sing it like him.

Song of a Young Country isn't all that great, either. I'm not arguing for Colquhoun's singing. :-) (I think, given his background and what I have heard of him on other instruments, that he was better on piano than guitar.)

But you're actually agreeing with my real point, which is that he wasn't that great a tunewriter. It's why the suggestion that he wrote the "Wellerman" tune seems somewhat improbable to me. Now if you told me that Phil Garland had written the tune to "Wellerman," I would have said it explains everything....

When I say that I conform to Colquhoun's arrangement of "Wellerman," I mean (e.g.) that I do not regularize the note lengths in the first line of the chorus, which seems to have become common, and I use the dorian IV chord rather than the aeolian VI chord in the second line of the verse. Things like that.

My first source for New Zealand songs, before I got the LPs of "Song of a Young Country," was Larry Carpenter, a Minnesotan who spent a long time in New Zealand before coming back here. From him I learned "Wellerman," "Davy Lowston," "The Stable Lad," "Down a Country Road I Know," and "John Smith, A.B.," among others. Those of you who have heard Gordon Bok's versions of New Zealand songs should know that he learned them from recordings Carpenter sent him of the songs. But Bok changed them to conform to his own style. Much as I love Bok -- and I do -- I still shudder when I listen to his recording of "The Stable Lad," e.g. It's not right. :-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 08:43 AM

I've come to this thread decades late, because I'm probably the only person on the planet who has never heard this song.

My two cents is simply to commend Gibb, Robert, and others for trying to sort fact from fiction here. And succeeding.

Additional two cents: I can't imagine anybody in the nineteenth century naming a whaling ship after a "a tin or enamel cooking pot with a lid and a wire handle, for use when camping" (Oxford).

"Walloping Window Blind" would be a better choice.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 08:45 AM

Out of curiosity, Bob, what's this Dorian vs Aeolian thing you've been referring to?

I've never heard those modal terms in relation to chords.

In concrete terms:
If we are in the key of say, A minor, and the first chord of the song is an Am chord...
what now is the next chord you're playing for the start of the second line?

Not Dm?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 08:53 AM

D major.

Dorian chords go i ii III IV v vio VII.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 09:37 AM

So, just a major IV chord, AKA "IV." I could have guessed he meant, because Dorian on A would have an F#, that the four chord would be D (major).

But he also refers to an "Aeolian VI."

So would that be F (major) according to this notion of modal chords.

Yet having already thought through the possibility of that meaning (i.e. building all triads on the notes of the respective "modes") before asking the question, I didn't recall any modern renditions of Wellerman that use an F chord in the second line.

Hence the confusion.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 09:56 AM

Is there an AI app to negate the shrill and out of tune tin whistle on the NZBC recordings?!!

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 10:12 AM

"I've come to this thread decades late, because I'm probably the only person on the planet who has never heard this song."
I have not heard it either

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 11:11 AM

I wonder if Willian Clauson ever sang or recorded Wellerman?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 24 Oct 25 - 11:20 AM

Gibb Sahib wrote: Hence the confusion.

Sorry about that. Yes, if you're in the key of Am, the issue is whether you use a D chord, or an F chord -- or a Dm chord -- on the word "name" in the second line "And the NAME of the ship was Billy of Tea." The Colquhoun book specifies D, and that's the chord I play.

I can't claim to have spotted this. John Roberts did. We were discussing "Wellerman," and I complained about the versions that were coming out on YouTube. He asked me to send him a recording of the way I learned it, and I did. He commented that I was using a IV chord rather than a VI on that note, and that the VI would be the expected one.

And while my ears are not as sharp as his were, I have heard at least one multi-person performance that harmonized on VI rather than IV. I'm pretty sure that was one of the performances I complained to him about. But I don't remember who it was; I was just listening to version of "Wellerman" on YouTube. And finding that almost all of them had the timing wrong. That was what I noticed; it was John who noticed the different harmonization.