Folklore: Pewter Tankards

Subject: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:00 AM

Served up in pewter it tells its own tale...

Further to the Folk: Image & Presentation thread, I was tempted by some lovely old Victorian pewter tankards in an antique shop in Cromer last week and, in resisting said temptation, I pondered their folkloric significance; at least their significance to folkies - pragmatic, symbolic, or otherwise. So what is the deal with Pewter Tankards? Is it purely an English thing? Is it just about being loathed to sup from plastic at festivals? Do you have such a thing? Come! Let us celebrate this most derided accessory of our calling - memories & anecdotes, customs & rituals, odes & origins...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Darowyn
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM

Pewter? that's not real folk.
Bourgeois, Victorian, academic revivalist nonsense.
A true trad folkie would have a leather tankard lined with pitch!
(I'd put a smilie here if Mudcat had such things)
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

I feel that a pewter tankard somehow adds the finishing touches to the ensemble: beard, smock, clogs, red, knotted handkerchief worn round the neck and clay pipe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:29 AM

I have both. (The pitch one is well made and makes the beer taste awful. It may be that it is in the mind - can't help that).

When around charity shops I tend to buy any tankard I see under £3.00.

That way when I leave one behind as I invariably do - I have a replacement.

Useful for carrying beer around and saving the 0.50p deposit at festivals.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Doc John
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:33 AM

Best not to carry the pitch lined leather tankard on your belt as a fashion accessory: the pitch fractures and the tankard leaks. Still to pewter.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:38 AM

Some of us will remember the pre-plasic glass times. The problem was that the pubs and bars were not too keen on people walking off with pints of beer in glasses that were owned by the pubs. Also, when morris dancing it was difficult to find your own beer after a dance - one pint of beer looks pretty much like another (I always new mine though - it was the fullest glass - always!). Tankards seem to be the obvious answer. Also a friend of mine (Hi collin) used to have a pint and threequater tankard which he used to get away with most of the time (cheeky bugger) untill he was discovered by a local pub who's manager hurled it down the cellar steps on finding out and it broke its glass bottom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:46 AM

Portable, reasonably unbreakable and, until relatively recently, a legally acceptable measured pint. Bit hard to tell with 'frothy' beers though if you've got the whole pint.

I have a tankard with a lid for Towersey - it keeps the wasps out but is heavy and cost me £12, 15 years ago, but I know there is only one other mug like it in the world. This year I've taken to using a plastic one - it's lighter, still a pint measure and has a jolly skull motif. ASDA's Hallowe'en range... cost me £1.95.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Dick The Box
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM

SHAMELESS ADVERT - I will have a selection for sale at Sidmouth from behind the bar in the Blackmoor marquee so you can experience the joy of pewter for yourself.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Sheeesh! And I thought a pewter tankard was a drinking vessel, not a fashion accessory. My tankard used to be lodged at the Ring O' Bells in St.Issey unitl I moved to N. Devon. Then it got moved to my new local at the Top George in Combe Martin. Very satifying drinking proper beer from a pewter pot - and nothing to do with folk music. Eventually it got stolen from backstage at the Bracknell Festival(along with seven others) when it was being used as a prop. for The Everlasting Circle - must have been the Southern Rag tankard mafia.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: pavane
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

I used to have a nice pewter tankard, many years ago, 21st present from someone. But I went away to work for a few years, and when I came back, found my mother had been keeping it on the mantlepiece with water and flowers in it.
Totally ruined it - so beware.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:11 AM

Carrying your own Tankard at least means you dont have to pay a deposit on a glass or otherwise , and that you CAN walk out with your drink if you move from bar to bar (Especially useful at Town Festivals with sessions in different pubs) .
And beer tastes better out of pewter than out of a collapsible plastic thig !n

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM

Eventually it got stolen from backstage at the Bracknell Festival(along with seven others)

Now there IS a job for the folk police......

At Wychwood Festival they had "plastic" glasses which were much more environmentally aware - they were not made from plastic. And cost the same as ordinary plastic ones.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:07 AM

Sadly, at most venues where one might have a mug, in the US it generally is illegal to transport a drink from one bar/tavern to the next. (I was once informed in a Pennsylvania bar that it was illegal to have a glass in hand while standing up, and was severely chastised for taking my own drink from the bar to join friends at a table.)

At most festivals in my immediate locale, "spirits" of all sorts are strictly prohibited and not for sale. That usually means bringing your own, and pouring it discretely into an unlabelled container so that you can pretend it's "sody pop" or "lemonade." For this, a tankard might be of use.

Pewter was, according to what I've heard, a sort of "class thing" since metal vessels of any kind were too expensive for the peasants, so a pewter mug would be a status thing. As to folkish authenticity, it would then depend on what "social stratum" you wished to represent.(?)

It should be noted that some pewter had high lead content and could cause "drain bamage" if used regularly. That would hardly be noticed for some dancing troupes, but might be of concern to musicians. In the US, lead-pewter wasn't reliably removed from commercial channels until perhaps the 1940s, so mugs older than that might be suspect.

Modern (non-lead bearing) pewter is safe enough, but it's always been my impression that any kind of metal container affects the flavor. I've had a number of "pewter" mugs (although a couple were clearly alumin(i)um in drag) and have not found one that I enjoyed using because of the "edge" on the flavor. (Note: commercial beer/beverage cans, at least here, are copiously lined with "lacquer" so that there is no metal contact with the contents.) The flavor effect might be less noticed with stronger flavored beverages of the kind more popular in differently-civilized parts of the world.

When I need a "carry mug" in camp, I generally just use a quart "mason jar" with a screw on lid (sort of a tradition in my part of the US), so that I can cap it to keep the bugs out and the lid is secure enough that if it's necessary to kick it out of sight nothing spills. I have rigged a "necklace" to carry one, but don't usually bother with it.

I may be a bit fussy, but I've NEVER seen a plastic container of any kind that was really fit to drink out of, although sometimes there just isn't a way to avoid it (esp. if being polite is an issue).

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM

Hi John

The difference here is that our beer is real living product - it is not a chemical product like american 'beers' it does not react with the pewter like your stuff does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Micca
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM

I have an assortment of Stainless steel tankards!! for a number of reasons,
the "portability factor" is an important one, as we Gianting Folk are often in processions, not having to "drink up, we're moving" is easier to manage
I can ALWAYS taste the pewter if I drink Cider out of it
secondly all this tosh about "lead free" pewter not poisoning you or being tasteable!, No It has cadmium instead of Lead!!!! and cider would, and does, leach that out quite effectively.
but also Stainless steel is much less susceptable to dents and other damage from being dropped and is just more Robust. All I need now is a Stainless steel with a lid for the same reasons (Kamikazi wasps) given by Liz above.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM

Some a capella folk ensembles seem to grasp tankards while singing
as a sort of stage prop.

The first time I had occasion to affect such a thing myself, I
observed that the tankard actually could act as a sort of vocal
monitor, reflecting one's own voice back and aiding greatly in
distinguishing pitch, when held at the right angle and when
less than half-full (for an optimist).

So the question is, if Ewan MacColl had affected a tankard, might he
have spent less time with his finger stuffed in his ear-hole?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

I use a pewter tankard 'cos I like it. I have a William and Mary one that tastes particularly good!( Must be the lead) No signs of brain damage yet! (Some would disagree)If I drank cider like Micca, I'd be sure to use stainless though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM

Someone mentioned Combe Martin....we used to go there for pub crawls...as did many groups of Folkies and footballers and rugby players..and stag parties etc. We all used to take our pewter tankards!!!!!......Combe Martin in the 60s had around 14 pubs in about half a mile of main road....coaches used to drop a party at one end and collect them at a pre-arranged time at the other.....they were good old days as i remember.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: BB
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

Funny, that half a mile has stretched to at least 2 miles! (To all intents and purposes there is only a main road.) And I believe there were nine pubs - now only six, sadly. Started at The London and finished at The Dolphin.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

Great stuff. I'm well tempted. Is the old glass bottom / King's Shilling thing true? The ones I saw in Cromer didn't have glass bottoms, but were marked as true pint measures...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Dunno about the toxicity of the lead in old tankards.
The same question applies to old cut glass. I alway serve single malt in the heavy tumblers, and offer water on the side from a cut glass pitcher for them as wants it.
The whisky never stays in the glass for long, and it is always cleaned after use, so I figure the amount of lead is not worth worrying about. I'm antique myself, and the lead hasn't killed me yet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: glueman
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM

Terrible, vile things tankards. Every pub I've ever used served beer in perfectly good glasses. Anyone who had their own tankard hanging up behind the bar I'd mark down as a complete tosspot. I'd like to be more liberal and understanding about tankards but they're the worst kind of snobbery in a portable form. Everything that's wrong with folk, superficial, ahistorical, superior, backward looking, twerpery. In short, ridiculous.
Thanks to the OP for the opportunity to sound off on the subject.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:59 PM

Land of the free, JohniK?

I used to use a tankard at English festivals, as others have said, because the landlords didn't like you walking out of the pub with one of theirs. Tried a glass one but it was too similar, and I didn't go to festivals to irritate landlords.

At one festival I went around with a guy who had a quart tankard (Tez from Coventry Mummers) and we mostly got charged for a pint and a half, not three pints.
I'm more honest nowadays.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:50 PM

BB We used to start at the White Hart....not sure where we ended LOL.....I assure you that in the fifties/sixties there were certainly 14 pubs in Combe Martin, on the main road.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM

Georgiansilver - the beer had addled your brain!

From Top to Bottom, Combe Martin pubs (and there were no pubs on side roads - hardly any side roads for that matter) went: London Inn (now deceased), Top George Inn (formerly George & Dragon when Bottom George was George III, now deceased), The Lion (now deceased), Bottom George (aka George & Dragon - formerly George III), The Castle, Pack O' Cards, The Fo'c'sle, The Marine (that's the one the elephant walked into), The Dolphin. In the days before the Dolphin there was The Star (now Star Cottage) but that's long gone. Nine pubs there were in the 1860s, nine pubs there were in the 1960s - now there are only six. For that matter, The Miramar Hotel has gone (returned to Velacott House, which is what it was before a hotel), as has Rone House Hotel - but they were never pubs - and there never was a White Hart.

Fourteen pubs? Half a mile? - Drinkers tales, my boy!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:14 PM

Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world is not. -- A.E. Housman

They are particular about their drinking glasses at "The Moon under Water" and never, for example, make the mistake of serving a pint of beer in a handleless glass. Apart from glass and pewter mugs, they have some of those pleasant strawberry-pink china ones.... in my opinion, beer tastes better out of china. -- George Orwell

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: meself
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:28 PM

Of course, George O. was talking about an establishment that existed only in his imagination - possibly "superficial, ahistorical, superior, backward looking, twerpery. In short, ridiculous."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: meself
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:29 PM

(Still, I wouldn't mind joining him there for a pint some day).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:40 AM

The little hell reserved for tankards is based on the fact they're seen in no other context but folk. The perfect synecdoche for everything pretend about the form but backed up by olympic level pedantry. Preserving something abandoned for perfectly good reasons, reinvented with a new backstory, and placed central to the hearty, hail fellow nonsense that's attached itself to perfectly good music to ensure it never reaches the ears of those with an ounce of irony.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:47 AM

BTW, that hasn't even begun to exhaust my bile on the topic but it's the glorious 16th today and I'm off to kill worms.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:49 AM

I guess my memory must be playing tricks...LOL    They were good old days anyway!.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:51 AM

Of course, if I'm feeling particularly generous, I'll take my four pinter sharing tankard along to a festival... not even I can empty that on on my own - although I did become a legend one year at the Stag in Hastings when the other drinkers saw me get it filled and reckoned I'd drunk it all myself - they were talking about it the next evening in tones of awe and wonderment!

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:29 AM

They certainly were the good old days.
TomB

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

The whole association between beer and folk music is a liabilty anyway. Younger people drink far less beer than people in their 50s and don't romanticize it. Why should they want to get involved in a musical scene that makes a religious issue of it? Does drinking Baileys or vodka and fruit juice make you less good as a singer or or fiddler?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Valmai Goodyear
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:19 AM

You don't have to make a religious issue of beer to recognise that it's celebrated in quite a number of traditional songs, whereas Baileys, vodka and fruit juice aren't.

Valmai (Lewes, home of Harveys Brewery)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:20 AM

"Younger people drink far less beer than people in their 50s"????

If for this purpose beer includes lager, where is it that that is so?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:23 AM

Somebody I'd never seen before came into Sandy Bell's last Sunday and sang Bottle of the Best, but that's the first beer-related song I've heard in a traditional music venue for years. (I believe they're commoner in England).

You only have to correlate the age of the clientele in a pub with the fittings on the counter to see the pattern. Beer is declining in popularity and a close association with it does the folk scene no good at all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:33 AM

My 21st birthday present inscribed pewter tankard was stolen at a subsequent birthday party at the Shakespeare Hotel, Lancaster, c1967. If the b*st*rd who took it is reading this(not unlikely, there were a lot of folkies there) please return it, there will be no recriminations. Then I could hang it on my belt and go to Sidmouth with pride.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

Faux-rural arrant nonsense for a self-invented plastic peasantry.

None the less, totally harmless fun in the right (and some of the wrong) hands. In fact, you could see it as part of the great, now sadly dying, tradition of tribalism in musical dresscodes. The folk equivalent of bondage trousers or the duck's arse haircut.

Anyone who says it's not a signifier of tribal belonging - frankly, I don't believe them.

Does ownership of a rather fetching repro Toby Jug win me any bonus points?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:00 AM

Sorry that was me. Must join one day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

Beer is declining in popularity and a close association with it does the folk scene no good at all.

The numbers who drink and care about decent beer aren't huge, but neither are the numbers who play and care about traditional music. I think it'll be a long time before the folk scene's grown to a level where the association with beer is what's holding it back.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:02 AM

"I think it'll be a long time before the folk scene's grown to a level where the association with beer is what's holding it back."

Yup, sod the beer. It's the dodgy trousers that'll be the death of folk.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:28 AM

Hey! You guys haven't tried REAL beers from the US! Dead Guy, Polygamy Porter, Bitch Creek, Moose Drool, Fat Tire, Firehouse, Cutthroat, Sam Adams Winter, Midnight Satin, Alaskan Amber...to name but a very few.

I have a tankard of "new" pewter -- haven't used it in years. I drink from glass, either as a bottle, a mug, or a glass.

(Beer mugs are good -- when the fight starts you can smash the cylinder part and you have a handy set of glass knuckles.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: nickp
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:16 AM

Wow.... what an extreme range of emotion over a simple object!

I never understand why people get so het up over tankards. To me it's a useful item. And the few I own I bought because their looks pleased me.

I first started drinking out of tankards simply because I hate trying to drink out of those wobbly plastic glasses. On more than one occasion I'd end up with cider all down me front after being knocked by some eejit in a crowded bar (the instictive reaction to grip your pint glass harder when your arm is jogged kinda backfires when holding a wobbly plastic 'glass'), not to mention that they often were highly unstable. I lost more than one pint when the other side of a table was knocked, or the ground wasn't as level as I thought. I use my tankard whenever I know I'm going to be drinking outside (picnics etc), or at places I know I'll be moving around between venues, or I'll be away from my pint (easier to recognise when I come back), not just folk events.

As I used to mainly drink cider I originally bought a stainless steel tankard. Later, a very nice man called Tim Westwood came up with very fetching tankards made out of pewter that was far more inert in the prescence of acid (and no, they aren't loaded with cadmium Micca) so I bought a couple of those.

Now I mainly drink beer, but my tankards are still preferable to drinking out of wobbly plastics and, let's face it, a lot more eco friendly than all those disposable plastics. Pewter shouldn't affect the taste of your beer, unless you're one of those people who (gaggingly) insist that one should never use more than water to rinse your tankard out with - Blech!

I think Ewan(SAM) is right about the tribal signifier thing. It did used to pretty much be the sign of a folkie (regardless of gender or age)- that if you saw either a leather pouch or a tankard hanging off a body's belt, odds on they were a folkie. But to go on with this idea, musical boundaries are blurring and it's far more common to see people who are into various types of music at folk events and their 'tribal signifiers' are more likely to be from their main interests, or from the group they feel most associated with.

But mostly, have a tankard or don't. It's just a cup.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM

The user just needs a Meerschaum pipe to be a complete ****.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ned At Work
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

I always talk of you in tones of awe and wonderment LTS! especially when you are passing me the four pinter!
The General.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Just remember that if you take a quart tankard to a pub and ask them to fill it each time you buy.....you occasionally get charged for only a pint.....many bar persons don't know the difference........

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM

All I want is a proper pint of porter

Poured in a proper pewter porter pot

I may be off my tot, but I want a pint of porter in a pewter porter pot

Iron porter pots and tin porter pots, they're no use to me

If I can't get a proper pint of porter in a proper pewter porter pot, I'll have a cup of tea...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM

If I wanted pitch, I would drink retsina! Pine flavoring and ale or beer seem an unfortunate pairing. What about carved hardwood tankards? I have an intricately carved old meerschaum pipe once owned by my wife's grandfather, a navy rear admiral. Would that be over the top? What's a birkin?
Doesn't pewter contain some lead?