BS: Re the Mudcat

Subject: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:35 PM

This is NOT a slagging/complaint thread. It is however serious.

There are more brains kickin' around the 'cat than Carter had liver pills.

1) What's the problem?
2) What can we do to help?

There are a gang of computer guys/gals here who know their stuff. However, until the problem is stated, there isn't much anyone can do.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:39 PM

Sorta got the hiccups [hiccoughs?] this end, starts fast fades early like a teenage lover.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:59 PM

My guess would be that apathy at the helm is one of the major factors...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:18 PM

That is bullshit, Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:20 PM

If it was apathy, this site wouldn't exist at all. You know that. You have been carping this same litany for ages. You have few takers on that view.

Allow me to re-ask the question because this has turned to a slagging thread by post three.

1) What's the problem?
2) What can we do to help?

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: DougR
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:28 PM

brucie: perhaps you should better define the problem. I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:39 PM

OK, Doug. Good point.

The 'cat has been slow-loading for many moons--not consistently, but frequently. Of late, it has been a chore for folks from many places to get on the Mudcat. Hard to logon--or impossible, thus making it necessary to use the alternate server. The problem is not restricted to one locale or country. Today so far it has been a long wait to see if I could get on or if my computer would time out. Other people have had the same problem. My question was to management. Is there an identifiable problem, and if so, what can we do to help.

We have brains here (I ain't one of 'em) who know lots about computers and systems, servers and hardwear/softwear. (Those things are just words to me.) But those things aren't just words to some Mudcatters. If I am told, for example, that I am posting too many things, I will cut down the number of posts. If it is something over which there can be control taken, then for me, I need to hear it from management. I love this place 99% of the time. It is a valuable site for many reasons for many people. Thus, my questions:

1) What's the problem?
2) What can we do to help?

Thank you for asking that, Doug.

PS I just called you a Republican on another thread. I should apologize for that. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:55 PM

SSSCCCCOOOOOORRRRRREEEEEE!!!!!!!!And the crowd goes wild!!!! A NEW RECORD!!! Used to be these threads would go maybe 25 or 30 posts before some dickwad jackleg like Clinton would start with that crap. But now in these days and times IT COMES IMMEDIATELY...much like Clinton I imagine. Oh well.........Everything else this thread might have to say has already come out in the first three posts so do you want to waste time with it brucie or do we just request it be closed now? (;<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:03 PM

There ya go again spaw... your voice muffled by your butt...

There are a bunch of things Max could do to generate a little revenue to help life mudcat outa the technological dark-ages it's stuck in... but he either doesn't want to or doesn't CARE to do any of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:12 PM

Nice gesture Brucie - It seems to be a sad fact that volunteering to help - only makes things worse.......

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:18 PM

Clinton, you seem to have a thorough understanding of the problem. what do you think Max should use the money for?

It IS frustrating, and I (unlike Clinton) have no idea what's causing the current problem, why it's gone on so long and whether there's any hope in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Michael
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:57 PM

'There are a bunch of things max could do to generate a little revenue'
Why Max? He has enough on keeping the system running.
Why not Clinton?
Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:02 PM

Spaw,

The question may have been asked in the first three posts, but the answer ain't been given yet.

I do NOT perceive this to be Max's problem. In some ways the Mudcat is a community. So my questions were sincere. If there is something
I--as a community member--can do to help, I would like to know what it is. If possible I would do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:26 PM

New hardware (though I don't know the specifics) seems to be in order first off...   at least that what it seems like from where I'm sitting...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:32 PM

"Why Max? He has enough on keeping the system running."
Apparently it's MORE than he can stand...


'Why not Clinton?'
It's not MY web-site... and as below re: lowly end users...

Brucie... my point is the OWNER has to want things done to improve Mudcat first... otherwise there's nothing that we, the lowly end-user can really do that matters... Short of not using mudcat at all... if NO ONE ever came here, the place'd never have any problems...

But what then, would be the pont?

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Little Robyn
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:45 PM

I thought it wasn't the hardware any more but those adverts that are tacked on all over the place that cause the thing to crash.
Yes, I find it frustrating but just be patient. I wouldn't want Max to quit.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: number 6
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:49 PM

New hardware?!?

What kind of hardware??

How about the software?

How about the communication protocol/lines/links?

Have to know the specifics involved before solving the problems.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: number 6
Date: 17 May 05 - 03:54 PM

.... my first off guess (just a guess at this point) seems to think it has to do with the size of the database and how it is accessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:02 PM

"but just be patient."
We've been enduring these issues for years... how 'patient' do we have to be? Especially when people keep asking over and over and over, "What can be done to help" and they keep gettind NO response...   It's like the Exon Valdeze (sp?) all over again...

" Have to know the specifics involved before solving the problems"
And for that we'd need a communicative 'captain' and bridge crew at the helm of the "Good Ship Mudcat"...

If they have been, I musta missed it...

But when the 'news' pop-up is still going on about a virus wartning from January... and about the 2002 version of the digitrad... well... that says just as much to me about the state of the place as the terminal slowness and constant crashing

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:13 PM

There was on offense in your direction brucie. Indeed, we have been running these threads for years now as most of us are like you and would do what we could if we knew. Several times in the past we have had som major drives for funds and have had to drag Max kicking and screaming into the discussion. After the last one of those, Max was certainly grateful but he was also pretty definitive in saying enough of this!

Mudcat is a community to be sure and I would suggest that a note to Pene or Max might be your best course of action in this case. This is never something that Max is comfortable dealing with and believe me, WE HAVE TRIED! Look back and you can find some significant fundraising threads! My problem with CH is that he has such a wonderful way of stating the obvious.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:23 PM

You know, from where I sit, I think we all have to patient for however long it takes. This is a free site, nobody is getting paid to run it, so lighten the f*ck up and enjoy what's here. Yeah, it's slow sometimes, or sometimes I can't get into Mudcat for a day or two..yeah, I get frustrated too but getting pissed off at the guy who is in charge isn't going to do much of anything except maybe to sit back, flash some folks the bird and wait until the mood strikes to do something. I don't know Max or what kind of person he is, but the constant criticism is enough to drive anyone to the point of such a thing.

So why not shut up and enjoy what's here unless you are constructively looking for a way to help? I think Brucie asked a good question with good intention.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:27 PM

This part should have read as follows:

I get frustrated too but getting pissed off at the guy who is in charge isn't going to do much of anything except maybe make him want to sit back, flash some folks the bird and wait until the mood strikes to do something. (sorry, my hands don't keep up with my brain sometimes....)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:29 PM

The only times Clinton has ever given any indication of the websites that he would like to see the Mudcat emulate, it's made me grateful for the way it is, for all its delays and outages.

I'm sure there are things that could make it more consistently reliable. But not those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:32 PM

Hey, brucie:

I truly appreciate the spirit of your initial post. I know that there are Catters who have far more expertise on computers than you and me (even Lassie knows more about computers than I do.) I can also understand the frustration of Spaw, in that conversations do become more of a "Hello, is anyone there?" I am deeply appreciative of Max and what he has done, and will enjoy the Cat on whatever level I can for as long as it is around. But, Max is kinda like the Wizard Of Oz.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..

You're a good man, brucie..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:34 PM

Constipation.

The site needs a laxative.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:36 PM

Most technophobes are like you McGrath...

Know what website I wanna see Mudcat emulate? Mudcat... from a couple of years ago... when it was reliable, and quicker than any text only site needed to be... Now a-days, it seems to be down at least once a week or so... And well, I've accessed the internet faster over an etch-a-sketch than Mudcat is currently running...

That the digitrad hasn't been updated for 3 years says more than I ever could...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:42 PM

What if Max has gone and got himself a life? OMG! He has other priorities in his life than Mudcat. How dare he?!?!?!? *eye roll*

Listen, if this site were something I were paying for, I'd be the first one in line to complain. Considering that I have access to all these resources for FREE, I'll be patient for as long as it takes.

If that doesn't suit you, why not create a *better* site yourself?

I don't get it. It's like a homeless guy bitching because someone gave him a green blanket instead of a blue one. Be glad it's here at all. Sheesh.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:55 PM

Mudcat is not pure, original programming. It's based on a software package called ColdFusion. ColdFusion is an interesting program. Every time somebody goes to the Forum Menu, ColdFusion takes information from the database of messages and creates a new Forum menu Web page. Since we have almost 1.5 million messages and over 80,000 threads, this can be a very complex process. On top of that process are all sorts of specifications and customizations - but it all boils down to ColdFusion, and the limitations of that program. We also have occasional hardware and connection issues that can freeze things up, but ColdFusion is the usual suspect when things go wrong. I suppose Max could upgrade or replace ColdFusion, but that involves an investment of a lot of time and money - and all the new bugs that come with adapting to new software.

When they encounter problems that make ColdFusion "hang," Max and Jeff have to devise workarounds. This, too, can be a complicated process. As I understand it, one of the shortcomings of ColdFusion is that it has a tendency to develop memory leaks that make the system freeze up. It wasn't so much of a problem when Max had a computer services company with a 24/7 staff available to reboot Mudcat whenever it froze, but he doesn't have that staff any more. So far, Clinton has not allocated funds for us to be able to employ a 24/7 staff. So, when it freezes, Mudcat stays frozen longer than it once did. There are times when Jeff can reboot Mudcat remotely, but that remote reboot doesn't work as well as we'd like it to. Since it's still in the experimental stage, Max and Jeff are the only ones who can reboot the system.

I'm not sure why the "back door" access continues to work when www.mudcat.org shuts down - I imagine it's because the backdoor doesn't handle cookies and chat and all the extra features connected with the cookie system.

So, that's more-or-less my understanding of what happens when it happens. Clinton, when are you going to come up with funding for staff for us? I suppose we could move Mudcat to some company that has 24/7 attendants, but that has other drawbacks. And somehow, I don't think Max wants to have a staff of Mudcat-watchers in his basement. That being the case, I guess it's best for us to learn to tolerate outages when they happen.

Max and Jeff are well aware of the problems. I talk with Jeff about this sort of stuff all the time. Most times when there's an outage, somebody will get up and post impatient or critical messages. Worse yet, they try to give advice. I can't imagine that sort of response makes Max and Jeff feel good about what they do.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:04 PM

"Be glad it's here at all."

What a pussy-ass mentality... I hope you (And the others who have expressed the same sentiment at this and other elements of Mudcat) don't live your WHOLE life with that attitude...

Women never woulda got the vote... Blacks never woulda been allowed to drink from 'white' water fountains...

Not that the issues that Mudcat has are anywhere near THAT important, but only through people standing up and asking "WTF is wrong with this!?!" do such issues get cleared up...

Not that I expect this thread will achieve any more than any of the other countless "WTF is Wrong With This Place Now" threads that people have started over the last couple of years... And well, it's not like Mudcat is the ONLY place for folk music discussion on the net... That so many other good folk music sites don't even KNOW it exists is testament enough to that...

What keeps me bitching? I came here a few years ago, and the place was great... and I met some very cool folks... now the place has gone to hell, but some of the cool folks have stayed... I stay to keep in touch with them... and well, because I'd like to see Mudcat returned to even a shadow of it's former glory...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:12 PM

Nobody said that asking what is wrong is a problem CH. Nobody at all. In fact, what was asked, is what can WE do to help? YOUR response is like a tantruming 2 year old who wants something done when he wants it. I'm not going to be rude to the folks who have created this site whether it has glitches or not. I'm glad it's here. "Pussy ass mentality"...your words say it all buddy.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:18 PM

The forum isn't all that valuable of a resource, and certainly not with the bullshit search engines here. The valuable resource at this website is now, and always has been, the DT.

The DT is being held hostage, and it's owners are not allowing it to be utilized to it's fullest. Many very knowledgeable people who truly value the DT as a resource have volunteered to help update and maintain it, create a newer, better, faster, and accurate search engine, all to no avail.

The owners don't give a shit what the end users want. They are passive aggressive jerks, holding the best song database hostage, and thumbing their nose at those who would be able to help.

It is for this reason I think Max is a real jerk. I could give a shit about the Romper Room forum. If it was gone tomorrow, you would hear my evil cackle booming loudly across folk cyber space.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:22 PM

I guess the thing we can do that would help most is to be patient. Sooner or later, Max and Jeff will resolve things. Well-intentioned advice often comes out sounding almost as insulting as the posts from dear, sweet, well-mannered Clinton.

Donations help, though. Click for donation information.

I suppose it would really help if somebody could teach Clinton about manners, consideration, and generosity.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:24 PM

"I'm not going to be rude to the folks who have created this site"

I wasn't rude to them either... I was rude to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:27 PM

Why in god's name would anyone keep pouring their hard earned money down the Mudcat rat-hole, when nothing ever changes? Isn't 5+ years patient enough? Just how many years of patience (and fleecing of the forum) should people coming here be expected to have? Reasonably speaking, I think people have shown too much patience.

You want to see change, sometimes you have to be willing to shake things up--especially at the late date we have arrived at waiting around for Max to get off his ass, or hand the resource over to someone who is actually willing to do something with it other than sit on it and collect spare change from the occassional deluded users "fund drives".

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:32 PM

Clinton,

Give us links to other good folk sites, if you have time. Mudcat will still likely stay on the top of my Favorites list though.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:35 PM

Thank you, Joe. If there is nowt I can do to help, then that's the way it is. If there is something I can do to help, please let me know. If a clone would like to close this thread, that's fine with me. I promise never to call it censorship.

I have enjoyed myself more on the Mudcat than I have for many years. Met some very intelligent, brilliant people and had more laughs than I've had for decades. So I will never 'dis' Max, Pene or the 'nameless' ones under any circumstance. Just wanted to know and my question has been answered by you. Thanks again.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:39 PM

Thanks for the clues, Joe.

I found myself wondering. During the past few weeks I've been on-line only sporadically because I recently opted to drop my dial-up connection in favor of cable, and for maximum flexibility for my wife and me, I've been struggling, with little success, to set up a wireless home network. I just learned recently that a friend writes books on this sort of stuff, so having reached a point of extreme frustration, I picked up the phone and called in the cavalry. He came over yesterday and set the system up for Barbara and me. Bless his heart! It works like a charm! Bloody uncanny!

The first thing I did this morning was to go cruising cyberspace. Things load in the blink of an eye. Incredible! It's a whole new world. Not just streaking along at warp speed, it's practically instantaneous!

So I zoomed in on Mudcat. And it took   f   o   r   e   v   e   r   to load. Same for individual threads. 30 to 45 seconds, sometimes over a minute for a page to load, not always, apparently, depending on the number of messages. And sometimes the little green worm at the bottom of the page crawls halfway across its box and just stops.

I''m fairly computer literate, but I'm no whiz, and I just spent a couple of weeks ripping out what's left of my hair while trying to work my way through what is touted as being a fairly simple set-up process. Nothing like this for getting clue as to just how frustrating computers can be, so I'm not about to bitch about other people having computer problems.

But--beside whining and complaining and/or trying to learn patience, is there anything anybody can do to help?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: number 6
Date: 17 May 05 - 07:06 PM

Thanks Joe for the.

All Bruce asked for was some feedback from us on the tech problems with the Mudcat. Then there are those that take this as there own soapbox to pathetically whine about the 'good old' days and express some limited knowledge on computer technology without providing constructive remedies. Either contribute Bruce's request in a positive manner or stay away. Simple as that.

Funny, it's these type of people that rant and rant in a negative manner about what is wrong with society. Take a look into a mirror.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: number 6
Date: 17 May 05 - 07:56 PM

BTW that was ... thanks for the input Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 May 05 - 08:33 PM

No One I know has ever suggested to me that there is a better Folk Music site than Mudcat , but I have only been involved in Folk Music for Forty odd years , and havent met EVERYONE in the UK folk scene .
I have been a member here for only four or five years , and have had some great times both on line and at Mud Gathers , met some good guys and gals , good musos and just listeners , and all for FREE !!!
I will go along with Bruce on this and agree that IF we were told what was required , perhaps we COULD help , but if there is nothing we CAN do to help , perhaps a message to that effect would make it easier for the ones who (it seems) cant live without their cat fix to put up with the situation .
Just sniping at Max and the Clones is not going to achieve anyting ,
except to annoy the people who CAN do something about things .

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:31 PM

In my past life, when I had to work for a living, we had a computer system that was down continually, and our laptop computers had a software package that had some really stupid features that made us take scads of time to do very simple things. A word processor would have worked better for us, but it dod not gather the statistics that management wanted so they could keep track of us. So, we got stuck with unreliable mainframe service and inadequate laptop software.

AND, when the mainframe or the laptops weren't working and prevented us from getting reports in on time, managment considered it OUR fault because we hadn't anticipated the possibility of an outage and gotten reports in ahead of time. My employer's computer service was far more unreliable than Mudcat, and my career depended on it.

So, I get offended by people who bellyache about my friends Max and Jeff, people who seem to forget that Max and Jeff do all their work without pay. Clinton is a primary offender, but there are others. I'd bet they don't know a damn thing about ColdFusion, or SQL, or Web Servers.

People have often suggested that it would be nice if Max or Jeff would post a notice explaining why Mudcat is down, but I can't see a great deal of value in that. The Clones and I usually post a message in the Help Forum explaining THAT Mudcat is down when it is, and suggesting alternatives. I can't see where an additional message from Max or Jeff would be helpful - it's better for them to get right to work fixing whatever needs fixing. I can't do the fixing, so it's my job to post the notices - they're in the Help Forum, which is usually still working when Mudcat is down. The Url for the Help forum is easy to remember - help.mudcat.org

So, Clinton, why don't you tell us what right you have to make all these know-it-all remarks? How's your knowledge of Cold Fusion? SQL? Web servers? As far as I can see, the only skill you've exhibited is your ability to post insults.

-Joe Offer-


Oh, by the way, if you're posting something long when Mudcat is being unreliable, it's a good idea to save the post first as a text file on your own computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:58 PM

Oh please. There are plenty of people passionate about this music, willing to work for free too, just to be able to maximize the resource that is the DT. But Max won't let them help. Why?

Good question. Why? A question that Max also refuses to answer. He's a jerk, and a jerk who by his inattentiveness, is wasting what was once the best folk music database online. Which is why so many music people have written this place and the DT off.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: dwditty
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:04 PM

Guest,

I think it is fortunate that you, at least, have not written Mudcat and DT off. It's great that you are here.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:24 PM

It is more than OK by me if this thread gets closed.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:25 PM

Dick Greenhaus has said that the Digital Tradition is free, and people can do what they want with it. Our self-righteous Guest is free to take the DT and make it better.
But our Guest is too busy trolling.
Same with Clinton.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:30 PM

Clinton,

   I think you should reread some of your posts. I'm not about to get in a pissing contest with you about this. You can view the situation as you please and I will do the same.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Gypsy
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:38 PM

Once again, thanks to all the volunteers who do ALL the work to keep the site going. And of course, if you really are unhappy with the site folks, you don't have to log on to it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:46 PM

Clinton isn't the one who NEEDS to know anything about Cold Fusion, SQL, or Web servers.   The people who claim to be running Mudcat should though. Apparently they do not. Or what they do know is not up to the challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: number 6
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:24 PM

Bruce .... at least you tried !

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:26 PM

Mudcat has been here for 3,150 days, and I have been here for 3,127 of them, and I have seen it go from fast with few features, to faster as Max & Jeff added new tricks, to slower as MANY folks discovered it, to faster and stronger as they added new machines, to slower as those machines wore out and Max's business faltered and no longer supported it, but still MANY new features were added......and eventually to the point where Max had to move and keep Mudcat going on less reliable lines and with very few redundancies. Through it all, it has been here 'almost' constantly and has allowed many, many people to do many, many wonderful and important things even beyond finding some words to songs.

During this time I have MET Max, Jeff, & Joe Offer on numerous occasions and discussed, in person a lot of this with them, and I KNOW they care and are trying to make it all work.

Those who, like some anonymous critics..(and one who at least has the balls to be obnoxious to your face)..call anything less than perfect a failure, should try understanding just how much FREE work has gone into this amazing place and how tempting it must be at times for Max to say "screw it" and leave a blank spot on the WWW where a community used to be! Like EVERY community, though, there are always a few grumpy folks who complain if you don't mow your yard often enough or if your dog barks or if your pickup truck has a loud muffler.

Clinton...and all you cowardly assholes who won't USE your names...shut the fuck up and let 'em work on it, and be glad you can use the place MOST of the time! I wish it were faster and more reliable too, but I have faith that it WILL be again...and I'll be here as long as Max and his crew have the will to keep it here.