BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?

Subject: BS: Wither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: mkebenn
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM

Being across the pond and rather distracted with our own shit, would the aforementioned be better of or even viable w/o the UK and still in the EU? And would North unite with Ireland? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:42 PM

Ireland (Republic) exports a lot to Europe. What's Scotland's main export market? Northern Ireland's?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:55 PM

Scotland has moved towards another referendum in Independence and Northern Ireland is considering a border referendum.
Both voted overwhelmingly to stay in the E.U. - Northern Ireland in particular will lose out heavily when Britain leaves - their industry depends heavily on E.U. grants.
It was announced a few hours ago that the Irish Post Offices have reported a record number of requests for application forms for Republic of Ireland passports.
Haven't seen hordes of refugees pouring over the border or people smuggling yet - early days!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:15 PM

I'd imagine that the Irish passports are desired by people who may want to work and/or live in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:34 PM

The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU

The two issues, Independence and EU membership have become conflated and in reality they are incompatible.

Sturgeon is left in a terrible position, having to push for a referendum that she does not want, over an issue that most of her supporters in the country don't care about.
She pushed her Party supporters into voting Remain to bolster the UK vote and ensure that the Indy Ref issue would not have to be addressed, but "the best laid plans o' mice an' Nicola, gang aft agley"

I am an SNP supporter to gain Independence, but they will need to stop playing politics and their pathetic rights agenda and appeal more to the gut instincts of the Scottish people, or their perceived success at the ballot box will turn out to be yet another false dawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:23 PM

Well the proportion vote to stay in the EU in Scotland was much higher than the proportion to leave in the UK as a whole, or in England and Wales.

It would have been perfectly possible to make a decision to leave conditional on all four parts of the UK voting for that. That's what the SNP and Plaid Cymru called for.

In a new referendum there'll be two differences to the EU referendum, both of which would help favour a vote to stayiing in the EU as an independant country - immigrants from the EU will be able to vote, and so will 16 and 17 year olds, as in the last independence referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 PM

The EU referendum has been won....end of story.
Miss Sturgeon has been HWHOP, she wanted a Remain victory so that she would not have to go for a second Indy Ref which will be almost impossible to win given present economic circumstances.

Also those who voted NO to independence are unlikely change their vote to stay in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Andrez
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM

Out of curiousity, if it takes 2 years to follow the EU exit protocol, when is the next UK general election due in the normal course of things? Is there one due in the next two years before expiry of the exit protocol time? If so when might that be approximately?

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

The next General Election in the UK can be no later than May 2020, one could be called earlier but does not need to be if the incumbent government does not wish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

akenaton writes:
The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU

Surely joining a group of states with a common trading area and a common approach to law and practice isn't hitching your wagon to it? Being a member of the EU gives you trading partners.

Britain is due to take on the rotating presidency of the EU, which is ironic; other countries are singing "If you wanna go, go now, go now, go now", hoping to avoid a long limbo period that will be damaging to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: mkebenn
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:10 AM

Do the more than 3 million supporters for a petition for another vote on separation mean anything beyond "buyer's remorse" or is the issue, as Ake said, done? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

"The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU"
Yep - can always rely on Good Ol' Britain to look after them - that's why the Conservatives have so many MPs there.
Scotland needs Europe grants to survive especially as the British ship is sinking as fast as it is.
As the Brexits appealed to the basic xenophobia of those worried about their jobs, you mean?
You appear to be a prime example of this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

I assume that, whatever his views on the EU, aken won't be voting against independence in a second referendum, and nor will other independence minded voters.

As I pointed out many people excluded from voting on the EU will be able to vote in such a referendum, most of whom are likely to vote for staying in the EU. And even if the economic experts do warn that breaking up the UK might be bad for Scotland, the EU referendum suggests that what the economic experts say doesn't necessarily count for too much with angry voters.. A lot of Scots will be indignant at having their choice overuled - and it was a far higher proportion voted to stay in Scotland than voted to go in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:20 PM

There will NOT be another Independence referendum any time soon Mr McGrath.....and I am as committed to Scottish Independence as I was to the UK's exit from the EU.

Unfortunately the young people of this country are not one homogeneous unit.....most of the remainers are from well off families with a wish to travel the world in their "gap years" and in time join the ranks of the high earning achievers;
In the large cities of Scotland, proper jobs are scarce, many young folk are without future or hope, many are trapped into addiction and criminality.
In countries of the Eurozone youth unemployment is running at 50%, and establishment parties are ineffectual

The young people are ruled by the media and a false childlike ideology...just like we were all these years ago,

Even they, will grow up some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:33 PM

akenaton - 25 Jun 16 - 04:34 PM

Spot on you have pegged it 100% right.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Thank you teribus we may differ politically, but I value your opinions and clear thinking very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:43 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 26 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

The same people who voted in the last Scottish Independence Referendum will vote in the next one - and the answer then was NO.

As both Akenaton and myself have pointed out the circumstances both politically and financially have changed in the interim to further distance the possibility of the electorate of Scotland voting for independence. Sturgeon did not want this in 1000 years hence her language over the past few days. The SNP are about to be strung up and shoved into a battle they cannot win by the uneducated enthusiasm of their own "supporters" who haven't grasped the significance of oil now being $49 per barrel instead of $90 per barrel, or the fact that Scotland's main trading partner is not the EU but the rest of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM

Thompson - 26 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

All very well Thompson but please correct me if I am in error but twice now the population in the Republic of Ireland told the EU "NO" and twice the EU rejigged the question until the electorate of Ireland compliantly gave them the answer the EU wanted from the start - that is what "hitching your wagon to" means - "You play ball with us and we'll jam the bat right up your arse" - the UK has cottoned onto it and kicked it into touch where the whole damn experiment belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM

i predict scotland will leave the uk and apply for membership of the eu, if they do, this will be good for rep of ire, as they can still export beef and farm products to scotland, which will then be geographicaly the closest european country, the uk will be pleased to get rid of northern ireland which is a drain on their economy, if northern ireland leaves the uk and joins europe, the uk will consist of wales and england without northern ireland the uk will be better off economically, the most likely scenario is that they may refuse to join the rest of ireland but apply for membership of the eu, as a seperate entity.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:18 PM

One option an Independant Scotland might consider would be to avoid some of the requirements for new applicants, such as joining the Euro and Schengen area, but still get the other advantages of EU membership, by seeking a Norwegian style relationship, including freedom of movement.

...............

Whether advice by economics experts about the danger of leaving the Union would carry more weight with Scottish voters than similar warnings did with English voters is a interesting question.

It may be that there were many young voters in Scotland who voted for Brexit as you suggest, or would have if they've had the vote, akenaten. But does that in any way suggest they'd be in any way more likely to vote against independence?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:22 PM

Unfortunately for your scenario GSS:

The UK still remains to be the biggest "EU" trading partner of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Nevertheless please tell me how 5 million people in Scotland are going to buy the beef and farm products from Ireland that they currently export to 60 million people in England?

Application for membership of the EU? You are looking at 5 to 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:29 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 26 Jun 16 - 05:18 PM

Big difference Kevin is that being in the EEA costs Norway £400 million per year - but Norway actually makes a profit out of this arrangement - i.e. Norway sells more to the EU than it buys from it, which is why they are in it. Could you outline what Scotland would have to offer to achieve a similar position?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:22 PM

Teribus writes:
All very well Thompson but please correct me if I am in error but twice now the population in the Republic of Ireland told the EU "NO" and twice the EU rejigged the question until the electorate of Ireland compliantly gave them the answer the EU wanted from the start

Well, I voted no in one of these, and when the EU removed the factor that caused me to vote no, I voted yes the second time.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Andrez
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:18 PM

Thanks for the info Raggytash. So I guess that means the Conservatives actually do have the time to do the deed unless events come together to point to a major electoral disaster for them. O me miserum :-(

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 06:46 PM

Giving people in Ireland another chance to vote was an expression of democracy, as would be the case if we were given a second chance. When couples wish to divorce there are two stages, the decree nisi, after which they have a chance to rethink, before the decree absolute. That seems a very sensble idea.

It won't happen here of course, but that represents a failure of democracy rather than a victory for it.
............
I note that Gibraltar, having voted 90% in favour of staying, is discussing things with Scotland, to try to get a Deal analogous to that with Denmark, which allowed part of the country (greenland) to be out and the rest (continental Denmarj) to stay in.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 10:36 PM

terribus and akenaten agreeing proves two heads are worse than one. regressive english nationalism is ruining the eu, as it ruined the possibility of a true commonwealth rasther thasn an empire when joseph chamberlain proposed an imerial parliament above westminster.imperialiam can bring stability and general wealth if it's not poisoned by this crude nationalism.

slovakia separated by a vote of their legislature with no referendum, that was upheld by the european high court as legal and constitutional. the snp could run on the promise of udi and leave.with the laterreferendum for a treaty with the eu.

lets hope this brings and end to england permanent war in ireland if the north joins the south. but then what would british establishment terrorists do to pass the time? they aren't ready to work in the city orget a real job, become blackwater mercernaries i suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:07 AM

olliamh - Could you pass that last post of yours to your carer and perhaps he/she could get it translated into English.

In the case of Slovakia, I do not think that the European High Court came into any part of the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, of course what they chose to recognise would be entirely up to them. Timeline was - declaration of independence 1992, then joined NATO & the EU in 2004, finally adopted the Euro as their currency in 2009. (Scotland can't wait that long it's got only two changes of clothes)

That England is engaged in a permanent war with Ireland is news to me, as is the contradiction stated that it would appear that somehow "English Nationalist" is bad but "Irish Nationalism" is good.

The "North" will only now ever join the "South" olliamh when those who live in the "North" decide that that is what they want to do. After that has happened the people living in the "South" then get a say via a referendum as to whether or not they want those in the "North" to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

Wales now
Cornwall & Yorkshire are you in that queue yet?

History repeats itself. It has to, nobody is listening.

remember Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

Unfortunately for those yabbering on about the break-up of the UK, they somehow seem to have mistakenly read the results of the EU Referendum as signs of nationalist aspiration - that is a mistake.

The majority of the electorate of Scotland recently voted to reject the call for independence and remain as part of the UK - FACT

The majority of the electorate of Northern Ireland show no sign at all of wishing to end their association with Great Britain - if they ever showed even the slightest inclination to do so there would be a referendum on that topic in a heartbeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:27 AM

Apologies I did not refer to Wales in my last post:

The Welsh Assembly consists of 60 seats, Labour hold 29 of them, Plaid Cymru hold 12, the Conservatives hold 11, UKIP holds 7 and the Liberal Democrats have 1 seat. On the results of the last elections only Plaid Cymru are talking about Independence for Wales - But of course it is natural that they should it is their raison d'etre, so nothing of any significance there.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:12 AM

I think the result was a mixture of xenophobia, disnchantment on the left with large bureaucratic multi national european capitalism, and amongst some older voters "why should we be governed by germany and france when we fought two world wars" some commonmwealth passport holders may also have voted to leave knowing that if european immigration was restricted that relatives of theirs in commonwealth countries may find it easier to get entry. which rather defeats UKIPS ANTI IMMGRATION RHETORIC

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

Britain is due to take on the rotating presidency of the EU

Not until July 1917, by then Article 50 will have been triggered, and the leaving process well and truly in train. An alternative candidate will no doubt have been selected to replace the UK (Most likely would be Austria) long before July 1917.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:28 AM

The Archduke will have been shot by then.

Far from Sturgeon been left in a fix by this situation, she's seized it as a historical opportunity:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36644777

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36645355

She is currently looking like the sanest leading figure in British politics, and is probably the most popular Scottish politician since James IV.

And from one of her colleagues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36649450

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:07 AM

Has anyone noticed how Nicola is beginning to look like her predecessor?

Trouble would appear to be that Nicola Sturgeon, like most of the UK's politicians believe that ears are attached to the heads of human beings for the sole purpose of keeping spectacles in place - she obviously doesn't use them for listening to what people say, such as:

1: The majority of people in Scotland do not want independence
2: In the unlikely event that the electorate of Scotland decide on independence Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU - in 2014 the President of the EU Council and the President of the EU Commission told the SNP that as unambiguously as they possibly could.
3: Scotland will not automatically be a member of the EU after the UK leaves should Scotland vote in INDY REF 2 for independence - they will have to apply for membership as any other country would have to - No special deals, no "fast-track" for Scotland.
4: Last link showing the SNP MEP didn't focus on what EU Commission President stated quite clearly just a little earlier on - to paraphrase - No talks, official, or unofficial with any EU politicians, EU Commissioners, until after the UK has triggered the leaving process in accordance with Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - So I do not see who Nicola Sturgeon will rush to Brussels to talk to, or indeed what they would be able to talk about that would be of any significance or substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM

And while the British parties are tearing themselves to bits, Sturgeon moves on to consensus-building:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36645355

There doesn't seem much sign of panic here. Collective quiet determination is more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

Teribus says:
1: The majority of people in Scotland do not want independence

Correction: The majority of people in Scotland DID not want independence.
Since they were last asked, a great deal has changed. They are now to be forced out of the EU against their will and this changes things totally.
Scots voted by 62-38 percent to remain in Thursday's EU membership referendum yet still they will have to leave.

It is likely that many Scots voted No in 2014's independence referendum as voting Yes would have meant them leaving the EU, at least temporarily.

Post-Brexit polls have 60% of Scots now supporting Scottish independence
Scottish independence has nearly 60 per cent support

It seems that Nicola Sturgeon is the only leader with plans for what to do now (the Leave camp admit they made no plans for what to do if they won) and as such she inspires confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:37 PM

The majority of the electorate of Northern Ireland show no sign at all of wishing to end their association with Great Britain Jerry Adams et al are making noises. If they get any louder they may be the sound of guns.

The genie is not only out of the bottle, but he (or she) is not alone, there were at least 10 green bottle, hanging on that wall .............
And we know how that song ends.

ever wondered why I call them a neverendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:45 PM

Sorry Noreen but anyone who talks about Scottish Independence and membership of the EU in the same breath - is obviously out of their minds.

Lots of things have changed you say? Such as?

Scotland's main trading partner, inside the EU or out of it remains the same - the United Kingdom. Should Scotland go for independence the flight of money and jobs South to England would be massive.

Your currency if independent will not be under the control of the Scottish Government.

If independent stand by for tax increases, stand-by for them anyway now that Scotland is fiscally responsible for itself. In 2014 the answer to all financial questions thrown at the SNP was North Sea Oil, that was when it stood at $90 per barrel - it is down at $48 per barrel now and the industry is gripped in the greatest depression it has ever known.

The SNP "myth" that Scotland would gain automatic entry to the EU has been well and truly exploded. Out of the EU the Scots will have to survive for a period of about 5 years before it joins the EU where upon the Scottish Government then becomes redundant if Merkel, Hollande and Juncker get their way {Closer political, financial and social union - all that effort to gain independence just to throw it all away again - quite a few SNP supporters oppose membership of the EU}

The only Parliament that can call a second independence referendum is located in London, not Edinburgh. A fact of life that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do not seem to have grasped.

All the questions that told so devastatingly against the SNP and the "YES" campaign in 2014 have still to be addressed but for Indy Ref 2 those same questions have all got harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM

"Jerry Adams et al are making noises. If they get any louder they may be the sound of guns."

Ah the automatic default position of the "Bold Fenian Men" lets try and bomb them into submission. It has never worked for them in the past, and this time round neither the USA, Europe or even Ireland would forgive them.

I would also assume that since the 1990s those who would take up the bomb and gun in Northern Ireland have been aware of what has been going on - If they ever did decide to take up arms again, they'd be in for the biggest shock in their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM

lets try and bomb them into submission. It has never worked for them in the past,

By the first "them"you presumably mean the Irish and by the second "them" you presumably mean the British Gov't, in which case I agree wholeheartedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM

Nicola Sturgeon will be talking to the EU not about ways of making Brexit less painful for the UK, which is what has been ruled out, but about ways in which Scotland could remain within the EU.

It was striking to see the Scottish. MEP Alyn Smith getting a standing ovation today from all the EU Parliament when he called for solidarity with Scotland in standing out against being dragged out of the EU by the English. Here's a YouTube clip

I'm inclined to think the Scottish cause could be as popular across Europe as the result of the Iceland victory...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

And no, not all the MEPs were standing - but the many who were were from all across the chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

And no, not all the MEPs were standing - but the many who were were from all across the chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:33 PM

"Nicola Sturgeon will be talking to the EU not about ways of making Brexit less painful for the UK, which is what has been ruled out, but about ways in which Scotland could remain within the EU."

Juncker has banned any contact - what is it about this that you have difficult in understanding? Her appointment with The President of the EU Parliament goes ahead, the more important meeting with the President of the EU Council has been cancelled as the President of the EU Council and Juncker consider it inappropriate.

Also cannot understand why it is so difficult for you, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to grasp the factual reality that Scotland is not a member of the EU, that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the sovereign entity that is actually an EU Member State, has voted in a nation-wide referendum to leave the EU. Now you either support democracy and abide by the will of the majority of people in the UK and support their decision, or you admit that the only votes you are prepared to accept are those that go your way and the will of the people can go hang.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM

abide by the will of the majority of people in the UK

Once again, it was NOT the will of "the majority of people in the UK".

And it was certainly not the will of the majority of people in Scotland.

"Get used to it".

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

The majority of people in the United Kingdom pretty certainly are in fact opposed to Brexit.

In the referendum on Scottish independence people aged 16 and 17 were able to vote. So we're people who had come from other countries in the EU, as well as those who had come from other countries. In the Brexit referendum 16 and 17 year old were excluded, and only migrants from Commonwealth were included.

It is pretty certain that with either of those extensions of the voting register there would have been a majority it for staying.

Even aside from this, the number voting for Brexit amounted to less than forty per cent of the adult population -not a high enough percentage to allow industrial action under the Tory laws pending.

In any case, as has been pointed,Brexit was roundly defeated in Scotland by a proportion far higher than the razor thin majority in England. In not accepting the call for exit to be conditional on majority votes in all nations within the UK the government under David Cameron betrayed the implicit compact of the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:03 AM

Greg F. - 28 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM

1: Funny thing about elections and referenda Greg F., the result reflects the will of the people on the basis that those eligible and registered to vote represent the people and only the votes cast are accountable. In the EU Referendum some 46 million were registered to vote but only 72.1% could be arsed to vote so that 72.1% represents the "Will of the people" - the result? - more voted to Leave than Remain.

Neither you or MGOH have got any right at all or any basis for declaring that those who did not vote were all remain supporters - if you cannot be bothered to use your vote you have no right to complain about the outcome of any referendum or election.

2: The nation I live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, that was the country that held the Referendum because that is the country that happens to be a member of the EU. The electorate of that country voted in the biggest voter turn-out since 1992 and they voted to leave - what individual areas voted is irrelevant.

"Get used to it".

McGrath of Harlow - 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

3: "The majority of people in the United Kingdom pretty certainly are in fact opposed to Brexit."

Pure supposition on your part, please do not present that as though it is fact. the rest of your post is a meaningless whinge because the side you voted for lost, possibly made worse from your point of view because the voters who swung it for the Leave side were solid traditional Labour voters who refused to listen to Corbyn who belatedly advised Remain but who in all probability according to accounts voted Leave himself.

As to the franchise? The Referendum was nation-wide, and was on a matter concerning the entire country. There are three levels of franchise when it comes to votes in the UK:

1 - Local Council elections
2 - General Elections
3 - Referenda

They exist for reasons that I find make good sense, you tell me why someone from an EU country who is working in the UK on a temporary basis, or a foreign student should have a say in the long term future of a country that is not his/her own? When I lived and worked abroad, after four years I could vote in local elections, but never relinquishing my UK citizenship I would never have been allowed to vote in the General Elections - I had no complaint about that.

In Scotland for the independence referendum it was a sign of the desperation of the SNP that 16 & 17 year olds were given the vote - didn't work though, did it?

Your last bleat about the call for exit to be conditional on majority votes in all nations within the UK the government under David Cameron betrayed the implicit compact of the Union.

The UK is the member state, the Referendum Bill was put before Parliament in 2015 and received Royal Assent to become the European Union Referendum Act 2015 on the 17th December, 2015. So it was fully debated and discussed by all interested parties, voted on and passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:41 AM

Forgot to add to that last post of mine, had the vote gone the other way as many expected that it would - my bet is that we wouldn't have heard a squeak out of either of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:33 AM

I think the squeaks would have been present no matter what. It is a neverendum after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

One reason why an independence referendum might go differently this time: a central part of the NO campaign's propaganda was that going independent would take Scotland out of the EU. And now everybody can see what bollocks that was: the risk to Scotland's membership comes instead from being part of the UK.

"Independence in Europe" has been the SNP's policy since the 1980s. Every one of the ever-increasing number of people who've voted for them knew that.