BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:37 PM

Morales, Correa target TV foes

By Martin Arostegui
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
May 31, 2007

SANTA CRUZ, Bolivia -- The leaders of Bolivia and Ecuador are moving with Cuban encouragement and in concert with their mentor, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, to restrict press freedom in their countries.
    Bolivian President Evo Morales and Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa both announced steps to crack down on independent broadcasters within days of Mr. Chavez's closure on Sunday of Venezuela's main independent television station, RCTV.
    Speaking before an international gathering of leftist intellectuals in Cochabamba last week, Mr. Morales proposed creating a tribunal to oversee the operations of privately owned press and broadcast outlets. Mr. Correa announced over the weekend that he would order a review of the broadcasting licenses of opposition news channels in his country.
    Both leaders have drawn support and inspiration from Mr. Chavez's increasingly authoritarian government since coming to power in the past 18 months, and both are drafting new constitutions that would greatly increase their own powers.
    Mr. Correa has ousted 51 opposition deputies from his nation's Congress and Mr. Morales this week ordered the arrests of four high court judges after they issued rulings that challenged his government.
    "The main adversaries of my presidency, of my government, are certain communications media," Mr. Morales said at the Fifth World Conference of Artists and Intellectuals in Defense of Humanity, a Venezuelan-backed group supporting "the process of change in Latin America."
    Appearing alongside Cuba's minister of culture, Abel Prieto, Mr. Morales suggested "drawing on the experience of our friends in Venezuela and Cuba" to establish closer controls over the press.
    Mr. Prieto suggested that some owners of the independent press should receive long prison sentences. "I wish that we could imprison the owner of a media outlet. With much pleasure we would give him a life sentence for lying, for confusing the people," Mr. Prieto said.
    The Cuban official said it was "imperative" to establish a tribunal that would "permit the evaluation and work of the media. Not only local and national but of all the great disinformation machinery in decisive media outlets with enormous world influence."
    Mr. Chavez announced Monday that he would investigate CNN as well as Venezuela's last remaining opposition news channel, Globovision. He has remained defiant in the face of international condemnation and daily street protests in Caracas, telling his opponents to "take a tranquilizer."
    In Ecuador, meanwhile, Mr. Correa issued a statement saying that "radio and TV frequencies have been granted in ways that are frequently dark and it's time to analyze the matter."
    He accused owners of major news outlets of using political influence to get their broadcasting licenses and using the press "to defend private interests that are often corrupt." He also announced legal action against Ecuador's opposition newspaper La Hora.
    Mr. Correa has repeatedly attacked the ownership of news channels by current and former opposition legislators. A reporter for one such radio network was expelled last week from a press conference given by Economics Minister Ricardo Patino.
    Indications that Mr. Morales is preparing to follow the example of his close Venezuelan ally have alarmed Bolivian opposition leaders and news editors, who are frightened by his moves against the judiciary.
    "Morales identifies his enemies," read a banner headline in the Santa Cruz newspaper El Mundo, which pictured a newsroom in the cross hairs of a telescopic rifle.
    Mr. Morales tried to deflect mounting protests on Sunday by saying that he had no immediate plans to close down any TV station and that his criticism was aimed at owners of news organizations and not at individual journalists.

    http://www.washtimes.com/world/20070531-121115-7740r.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

"P.S. Viva la revoultion..."

Howcome the freedom of speech is so vital and inviolable here in the US but in Venezuela it is not necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

Day five of the protests:

Venezuelan Students Spreading News of Killing via Internet
    Malury de Morales is a Venezuelan living in Florida who has been following these events closely through a constant stream of e-mails and instant messages coming from students in Caracas.
    According to a student who e-mailed Ms. Morales and who claims to have been an eyewitness to this afternoon's murder, the security officers who killed Ms. Guevara went out of their way to do so. Her source says that Ms. Guevara was peacefully protesting, but the police broke ranks in order to go get her and shoot her on the street.
    The government of Chavez has issued a statement claiming that the student was killed while engaged in violent protest. Chavez has also broadcast statements that he will "defend Venezuela against violent people."

Venezuela College Students Demonstrate Peacefully
    According to e-mails Ms. Morales has received, the students' protests have involved such slogans as, "We want freedom of speech. We don't want a Communist regime. We don't want violence." All the protests are said by the students to have been peaceful.
    Pictures e-mailed out of Venezuela by the students show masses of young people peacefully marching the streets of Caracas.
    Prior to today's killing, the students have reported violence being used to try to intimidate them.
    One e-mail reports over 120 minors having been returned to their homes by police after having been beaten.

Chavez Stops Venezuelan Media, Takes Aim at College
    Media outside of Venezuela have reported that the student protests, which are now in their fifth day, having begun on May 27, were sparked by the closing of the most popular TV station in Venezuela, RCTV.
    But the students' opposition to the Chavez regime had another important trigger. On May 24, Chavez had announced he would end the autonomy of the Central University of Caracas.
    This university has existed since the beginning of Venezuela and is highly respected. The students of Venezuela are said by Ms. Morales' e-mail correspondents to have viewed the threat to Central University as symbolic of a general attack on Venezuelans' freedom.
    One e-mail concludes with these words: "This is a call for aid, a S. O. S. to all the planet: Do not be deceived by a tyrant, by someone who is unhinged and who promotes the destruction and the death of his people."
    With the close of RCTV, the only media outlet said to be still willing to report honestly on events in Venezuela is the very weak T.V. station Globovision. Recently members of the Chavez-dominated national assembly threatened to close it.
    The students' e-mails also report that Chavez has now threatened to shut down the Internet.

"This is a call for aid: Do not be deceived by a tyrant who promotes the destruction and the death of his people." â€"An e-mail from a Venezuelan student

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-6-1/55953.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:13 PM

Back in 1972 and 1973 in Chile, at the time of the Allende government, there was a wave of strikes involving truck-owners, businessmen and professionals, and some students.

This was widely presented in the media as being a defence of freedom against a tyrannical regime. It led up to the September 11 coup in Chile, which brought the Pinochet regime to power and ushered in a period of vicious repression, involving torture, and the killing of thousands of people. Backing from the USA was crucial in enabling this to happen.

I'm sure there are serious flaws in Venezuelan democracy under Chavez, as there was in Chile under Allende, and as there is is many other countries, including the UK and the USA. But I am equally sure that the regime that is likely to replace Chavez if it gets toppled will be vastly worse, as was the case in Chile.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 04:34 PM

I would bet the new regieme would be more friendly to some national interests and corporate interests--other than China's.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM

regieme

How 'bout "regime"?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM

"This was widely presented in the media as being a defence of freedom against a tyrannical regime. It led up to the September 11 coup in Chile, which brought the Pinochet regime to power and ushered in a period of vicious repression, involving torture, and the killing of thousands of people. Backing from the USA was crucial in enabling this to happen."



                     The same thing happened in the US in 1981 and we ended up with Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:24 PM

By way of example Lonesome EJ: "This is Socialism like Castro's Cuba is Socialism. What it is is self-coronation by a revolutionary stongman as the Savior of the People. Don't think it was what Jefferson, or even Lenin, had in mind, do you? You remember Benevolent Dictatorship don't you? Napoleon had it down..first declare liberty, equality, and fraternity, then declare your self Emperor. Otherwise, the enemies of freedom will crush your fledgling Democracy.

We hear plenty of enlightened opinions from those safely ensconced within the borders of Canada, the US, Ireland, etc. Would love to hear someone from Mainland China voice the joys of Socialist Autocrac"

You have also described Chavez as a 'despot'.

You evidently believe that Chavez and Castro are autocrats etc., and their socialist republics are the efforts of despots to grab power to themselves. It would be much 'better' if these countries embraced our western democratic model. This is of course despite decades of evidence to the contrary, that capitalism in south America has meant despotic rich elites lording it over supine populations, a position backed up by a regime of terror. this terror has often been endorsed, aided or guided by the USA (the dreadful 'School of the Americas' at Fort Benning being an example of this kind of 'intervention'). This kind of political model is based on the interests of big business, not on people. In fact the USA isn't so far behind here either. Ask the destitute homless survivors of Katrina about their experiences. The National Guard arrives down not to protect and help them, but to protect (well-insured) property from those filthy starving desperate masses. It took ages for them to get any assistance at all, and many fleeing were turned back.

Then there's America's two-tier health system - another disgrace in such a wealthy country. It is horrible to hear of hospitals actually turning people away because they lack medical insurance. At least Castro's people get free medical aid. if they don't have everything they need, you could do well to look no further than the US' petty embargo on Cuba.

It is also interesting to note Cindy Sheehan's recent comments on stepping down from the anti-war movement. She said she was sick of teh two party system, where the Democrats were only interested in her as long as she was perceived to be anti-Republican (and didn't hold the Democrats up to the same standards). She said she now knows her son literally died for nothing, killed by his country beholden to a corporate machine that feeds off war.

By contrast, under Chavez, Venezuela's poor are finally getting a look in at last. Old people are getting their pensions, money is being put into health (Chavez even has a deal with Cuba to swop Cuban medical expertise for Venezuelan oil) and hospitals, schools, etc., In short, the weaker and more vulnerable are gettinga slice of the cake which the rich had had all to themselves up to recently. Can yopu imagine the cheek of Chavez finally aksing the big earners to cough up a whole 15% in income tax after years of practically no tax at all!! Where will it all end, we wonder!! Chavez is one of the first South American leaders to acknowledge that US and Western interference in South America is bad news for the ordinary people of that continent. And for that, he is castigated by the right-wing press on a pile of spurious grounds.

And that is what has the richer Venezuelan's and big US corporations knickers in a twist - looking after poor people is not good for profit margins.

It's all very well to criticise these 'autocratic socialist regimes' but at least in Venezula the poor are getting looked after. The USA (hardly one of the world's poorest countries) could do well to take a leaf out of Venezuela's book.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:57 AM

Day six: Rising unease slows Chávez agenda
In the past few weeks, President Hugo Chávez has hit some speed bumps in his rapid transformation of Venezuela into a socialist state, with polls showing a drop in support.
BY PHIL GUNSON AND STEVEN DUDLEY

CARACAS --
Recent street protests, polls and delays in government projects have put the normally aggressive Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez on the defensive as he tries to rapidly implement ''21st Century Socialism'' in Venezuela.

''This is part of the transitions, transitions that are sometimes tumultuous,'' Chávez said this week as university students led protests in a half-dozen Venezuelan cities over the government's decision not to renew the broadcast license of a popular television station. ``There's no revolution that isn't tumultuous.''

Calling his landslide Dec. 2 reelection the beginning of an era, Chávez -- a former army lieutenant colonel who led a failed coup in 1992 before he was elected president in 1998 -- charged into his agenda with great success.

After obtaining power to rule by decree for 18 months from a legislature that has no opposition members -- the opposition boycotted the last election -- Chávez took over the country's main telecommunications company, the electric utility in Caracas and the heavy oil production facilities formerly run by multinational corporations.

But unexpected obstacles in the last few weeks appear to have slowed the once steady march toward what Chávez has called Bolivarian Socialism -- an expansion of the state's role in the economy and significant increases in funding for social welfare programs paid from oil revenues that have made Chávez wildly popular here.
NO CHECKS ON POWER

He has won three presidential elections, but opponents say he has undermined democracy and put the nation under virtual authoritarian rule by stacking the courts and once-independent government institutions with allies...."

"COUNCILS UNDER FIRE

The president's idea for grass-roots democracy through so-called ''community councils'' also has run into trouble. Resources that normally go to local government bodies are being diverted to these organizations to ''empower'' ordinary Venezuelans. But there are complaints of widespread corruption, and some community councils have split into rival factions, with angry disputes over how the money is spent.

Intellectuals sympathetic to the regime also have criticized the councils as an idea imposed from above and whose practical application is doubtful. Social historian Margarita López Maya wrote recently that the councils' ''potential autonomy'' from the government is weak, adding that the authorities failed to submit the proposal to an adequate popular debate.

FOOD SHORTAGES

Meanwhile, issues such as violent crime, unemployment, inflation and food shortages have begun to erode the public's confidence in the authorities and possibly in the president..."

http://www.miamiherald.com/583/story/125072.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:24 AM

Someone mentioned the closed-down channel advocating Chaves' assassination. And McGrath said "TV channels which actively support an armed coup against an elected government can normally expect a hard time when their licence comes up for renewal - in any country."

Has anyone cited specific passages by RCTV that advocate assassination or an armed coup ?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:56 AM

Paraguay to follow Chavez!!

"we have to be aware to guarantee that the forces of chaos do not sabotage the awakening."

Read this and weep you weasels...Ake

Viva Chavez...go on click!!

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

Food shortages in the Workers Utopia:

A Circus But No Bread
By MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY
May 21, 2007;

"...Here's how Chavez economics "works." As petro-dollars pour into state coffers, the government takes them to the central bank to get new bolivars printed, which are then pumped into the economy through government spending. Mr. Chavez has also been regularly increasing wages. The result is a consumption boom. Under free prices, too many bolivars chasing too few goods would produce inflation that would show up at the supermarket checkout counter. But price controls make that impossible. Instead, serious shortages are emerging.

Free prices are to an economy what microchips are to a computer. They carry information. As Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises explained in his legendary treatise 60 years ago, it is free prices that ensure that supply will meet demand. When Mr. Chávez imposed price controls, he destroyed the price mechanism.

And so it is that the Venezuelan egg is now a delicacy, the chicken an endangered species, toilet paper a luxury and meat an extravagance. White cheese, milk, tuna, sardines, sugar, corn oil, sunflower oil, carbonated drinks, beans, flour and rice are also in short supply.

The reason is simple: Producers have no incentive to bring goods to market if they are forced to sell them at unprofitable prices. Ranchers hold back their animals from slaughter, fisherman don't cast their nets, food processors don't invest in equipment and farmers don't plant. Those who do produce find it makes more sense to take their goods across the border to Colombia or to seek out unregulated (black) markets.

Importers also have little incentive to work these days even though the country needs food from abroad. Some things like wheat are not grown in Venezuela. Other products like milk, sugar and potatoes are imported to supplement local supplies. But the Chávez government has made it difficult to buy a dollar at the official exchange rate of 2,150 bolivars and if an importer has to buy dollars at the market rate of 4,000 bolivars it is impossible to make a profit under price controls. Even imports not subject to price controls can be difficult to find since import permits and licenses, as well as dollars, are hard to come by.

This is putting a crimp in more than just the food supply. According to local press reports, some 40% of the country's air fleet has been affected by delays in getting spare parts and the automotive industry's supply chain is hampered by a lack of access to dollars. Earlier this year hospitals began complaining that the servicing of medical equipment has been delayed because spare parts are not available. Hospitals are also reporting shortages of medicines for diabetics, antibiotics and hypertension drugs. Price controls on construction materials have damaged the reliability of supply.

To stock the state-owned grocery stores called Mercal, the Chavez government goes shopping abroad with dollar reserves. Of course, Mercal shelves are often bare as well. Moreover, some enterprising government employees seemed to have learned something about market economics: The Venezuelan media is reporting that Mercal supplies are turning up for sale just across the Colombian border, where market prices prevail.

Venezuelan policy makers can't be this dumb. The intention is not to feed the country but to destroy the private sector and any political power it might still have. In this environment survival independent of good relations with Mr. Chavez is nearly impossible. In the revolutionary handbook, capitalist producers and importers who buy things from the imperialists will be replaced by socialists living on cooperatives that will feed the country. The only trouble is that that effort is not going well, as Jose de Cordoba reported on the Journal's front page on Thursday. Lack of knowledge, equipment, incentives and organization have left the co-ops "mostly a bust so far."

To end the shortages all Mr. Chavez would have to do is lift the price controls. But with inflation already running above 20%, he no doubt fears the price jump that would follow. Much safer to seize RCTV and accelerate the consolidation of the military dictatorship. When the crisis comes, the chavistas will be ready.

http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2007/05/marai-anastasia-ogrady-on-venezuela.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 07:43 PM

Another pastie...

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM

Dickey: You sound a bit sad that things have improved for the people of Venezuela. Or have I misunderstood?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:04 PM

Interesting to see people like Katlaughing, who pretend to be democrats, whining about media freedom when he indigenous folk of Latin America have suffered centuries of exploitation and poverty.

The situation in the United States should make it clear to all whether they be evil or simply dumb, that "freedom" is only a word if not accompanied by representation.
If "freedom" is to have real meaning it should be available to all, not just those with wealth and power.

AS stated further up the thread, When an extremely corrupt system like that which has controlled Latin America for so long is being changed fo one which is more democratic.
"We have to be aware to guarantee that the forces of chaos do not sabotage the awakening."............Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM

Peace:

If you consider growing unrest over growing food shortages and rampant inflation good and if you consider people marching with a flag with the hammer and sickle am improvement, then you must be happy.

Have you packed your bags yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 AM

So it's the Russians that bother you?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:30 AM

Let's see. The Venezuelan governmental system was totally corrupt and gave the people no representation, right? Somehow, though, the people acted through the system to elect Chavez, right? And now that Chavez has gained power through the democratic process, he begins dismantling said democratic process in favor of a benevolent dictatorship, so the people can be better served, right?

Is there something I'm missing here? And Katlaughing dares to call herself a Democrat, as I do by the way, and yet we dare to criticize the benevolent-dictatorial-process! The gall!

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:15 AM

Peace: Does North Korea bother you?

benevolent dictatorship? Is that an oxymoron like military inteligence?

Ruling by decree = better served???????

How are the students that are demonstrating better served?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: GUEST,dianvan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:09 AM

Is it true that Chavez has been responsible for a dramatic rise in literacy rates, the introduction of national health care, increased per capita income and reduced poverty?

So what if he shut down a tv station? He's in S. America (the land of coup). I think he was looking after the stability of his country.

In America, you're arrested as a terrorist if you express your hatred for the U.S. and discuss ways of disrupting the economy. Its called conspiracy. The media calls it a plot even when there is no evidence of a plan that could succeed.

At least Chavez improves the lives of his people. Thats more than Bush does.

Chavez has a healthy disrespect for the U.S. At least he's strong enough to protect his country from exploitation. More power to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

Bravely said Diana and lots of good sense from Bruce.

The squeals of our heroic "democrats" are becoming more strident.
Isn't it wonderful to see the desperation of the right, as their castles crumble before their eyes.

How Hugo Chavez deals with the problems of increased prosperity in the future.
An unlimited money supply is not a good catalyst for a true socialist revolution....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM

Sorry about that.

Last sentence shoul read..."It will be interesting to see how H.C. deals with the problems which will accompany increased prosperity."

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:11 AM

It might be worth pointing out that RTC hasn't been actually shut down in the literal sense - it is still operating through cable internet etc., so people can still access its news and opinions if they wish. It hasn't been granted a state broadcasting licences under terms allowed by law: its support of an anti-democratic coup (backed by elements within the US and Venezuela's rich fearful they might have to share the crumbs from their table) disqualifies it from state support. If a media outlet in the USA backed an assassination of President Bush, I doubt it would remain on air for long if the putsch didn't succeed.

The 'problem' for some people with Cuba and Venezuela is that they musn't be allowed to succeed, as they present alternatives to the 'American Dream' for all their shortcomings. If they succeed, people who have blind faith in the corporate capitalist model of the US might begin to question its wisdom. They might begin to wonder why a country that produces such fabulous wealth is unable to look after its poor, elderly and sick. Canada has a far lower GNP yet manages adeqaute medical cover for its citizens (Canadians, correct me if I'm wrong!)

They might also wonder why Cuba with its much-derided one-party system is yet able to provide medical care for all (OK, short on supplies - again, the embargo: any ship that docks at a Cuban port is banned from any US port for the following 6 months, making it very costly to ship / import / export to Cuba) while the USA with a whole TWO parties (that can find hundreds of millions of dollars to elect a president) is quite unable to do the same except for the rich or those with medical insurance.

So the best policy is to undermine these systems through coups, embargoes, covert subversion etc., etc., and then when they collapse (as most countries would under such determined and well-financed efforts to destroy them) the finger can be pointed at what rubbish models of society they are.

It reminds me of a Bob Dylan song "Only a Pawn in Their Game" when he sings something like 'and don't help the black guy because remember you're better of than him'

True, China is an autocratic country, and it's hardly neceesary to even say that North Korea is a failed state. But there is a happy balance, and I believe Cuba and more particularly Venezeula are getting there. There needs to be some balance between profit (a perfectly legitimate business pursuit) and people's welfare (the over riding factor).

BTW, it recently occured to me one reason why so many Chinese abroad are paranoid about being spied on by their goverment all the time. Well, so would you if everywhere you went - shops, petrol stations, streets etc., - you saw signs saying 'smile, you're on CCTV' and 'CCTV monitored area' and 'CCTV in operation'

In China, CCTV is the abbreviation for Central China TeleVision - the main State television channel!!! Weird, but true! Anyone with satellite access can watch it for themselves.
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

Dianavan:

In Venezuela, you're arrested for protesting the government confiscation of the most popular TV station. Freedom of speech vital to the US but uneeded in Venezuela because they have a benign dictator.


"You get up at dawn to hunt for a breast of chicken all over town. Housewives are in a foul mood." says Lucylde Gonzalez, a Caracas homemaker, who says she hasn't seen an egg in a week."

Mr. Chávez blames the shortages on "speculation" by distributors and producers. Agriculture Minister Elias Jaua recently called a news conference to deny there's been any decline in food production during the eight years of Chávez rule. The central bank stopped publishing agricultural statistics in 2005. A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year than the year before, citing factors including the price controls, land seizures and the wave of kidnappings of farmers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117934540971705299.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Such an improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

Boy, LeeJ, there's some really twisted "logic" going on in this thread, isn't there.

I've never pretended to be a Democrat, I am one, and being one does NOT automatically guarantee my being lock-step with anything that party or any other party might propose.

What I know about Venezuela comes first-hand from my Rog working there AND from his friends who live there. But then, what would they know.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

Mr. Chávez blames the shortages on "speculation" by distributors and producers....A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year.

They might both be telling the truth. They might both be lying. Or they might both be selecting which bits of the truth to emphasize and which to ignore and which to distort, which is what generally happens when politicians or lobbyists indulge in spin, in all countries.

That's where a free press should come in, to sort out the spin from the truth - but partisan media that deliberately distorts information for an agenda are not part of a free press, they are parasitic hangers on who undermine a free press capable of carrying out investigation. It may be necessary to tolerate them as part of the price to pay for enabling free media to exist, but this is a contingent decision not a universal principle.

A TV station which has in the past backed an armed coup that nearly succeeded, and which has not changed in any significant way is a serious danger in a country such as Venezuela, This is especially so where the coup was actively supported by a hostile US government with a long history of promoting bloody coups in neighbouring countries such as such as Chile, Guatamala, and indeed throughout the continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

"...the coup was actively supported by a hostile US government with a long history of promoting bloody coups in neighbouring countries such as such as Chile, Guatamala, and indeed throughout the continent."

Ain't that the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM

In Venezuela, you're arrested for protesting the government confiscation of the most popular TV station. Freedom of speech vital to the US but uneeded in Venezuela because they have a benign dictator.


"You get up at dawn to hunt for a breast of chicken all over town. Housewives are in a foul mood." says Lucylde Gonzalez, a Caracas homemaker, who says she hasn't seen an egg in a week."

Eggs aren't that good for you and are not really needed for healthy sustenance. And besides why should anyone give credence to a single disgruntled Caracas homemaker?
She is only one person.

" A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year than the year before, citing factors including the price controls, land seizures and the wave of kidnappings of farmers."

The fact that it's a private farm association make their stats suspect to begin with. It's like trusting Archer Daniels Midland to estimate the efficacy of agribusiness in the US. Propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM

Those supporting the Benevolent Dictator philosophy would do well to study the ascent to absolute power of Benito Mussolini.

First, organize and head a party that promises restoration of power to the people and an end to bureaucratic paralysis.

Second, use the existing democratic process to elevate the party and its head man to power.

Third, demand temporary dictatorial powers to seize control of parliamentary and other branches of the government, and site outside threats and traitors within the government as the reason.

Fourth, design and prosecute large-scale "people's projects", such as Mussolini's Land and Grain Reforms to solidify the image as the People's Leader.

Fifth, through threat or direct action, silence all press opposition and outlaw public protest.

Sixth, demand further, open-ended extension of dictatorial powers in favor of the ruling party/headman's prepared list of candidates, effectively outlawing the opposition.

Anyone who sees a difference between this approach and Chavez' is welcome to dispute it. He, at least, is showing himself to be a conscientious student of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:40 PM

I'd still rather live under Chavez than Bush.

Chavez has inherited a lot of problems but Bush inherited a land of prosperity and look what he's done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM

Bush will be out of office in a year and a half. Taking any bet on Hugo, Diana?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM

Contrast Chavez with the Sandinista revolution in Nicaragua. Nicaragua was under the iron boot of a dictator, Somoza, for many years. He was pro-America, it was the Cold War Era, and the US supported him. Through an armed insurrection, he was overthrown and the Sandinistas and Daniel Ortega took power.

Despite this, Ortega refused to follow the Cuban Benevolent Dictator model. Cuba was instrumental in supporting the Sandinista Revolution and in providing health care and teachers in its aftermath in helping the Sandinistas apply the program of educating and caring for the people. They also had, as a stated mission, the establishment of a multi-party system with free elections, and these took place under the eye of UNESCO. The Sandinistas were eventually voted out of power, but the democratic reforms they put into place remained, and they accepted political defeat and retired. But in the last election, Ortega was voted back into power, and the Sandinista Party is again at the helm.

Yes, I understand that the Sandinistas were opposed by the Reagan administration, wrongfully as it turns out. But my point is that revolutionary reform CAN be accomplished without resorting to Dictatorship. Nicaragua is a shining example of how successfully socialism coupled with democratic reform can work in a revolutionary environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

Katlaughing the spelling was "democrat" with a small d.
A real democrat would never support media who encouraged an armed coup against a democratically elected govt...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

"Those supporting the Benevolent Dictator philosophy would do well to study the ascent to absolute power of Benito Mussolini."


How about George Bush. He's more recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

"the Sandinistas were opposed by the Reagan administration,"

That's a slight understatement for long years during which Reagan sponsored and financed a proxy terrorist campaign against the Nicaraguan people in which many thousands were murdered. Finally the Nicaraguan voters were ground down by all this and understandably gave up and voted for a quiet life, in face of threats by the USA if they kept voting Sandanista

That's part of the background which explains why the Venezuelan government feels pretty nervous about giving their own Contra equivalent too much leeway.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:28 PM

"Finally the Nicaraguan voters were ground down by all this and understandably gave up and voted for a quiet life, in face of threats by the USA if they kept voting Sandanista" ...and under Bush's enlightened attitude toward Nicaragua, they felt comfortable putting Ortega back in power? The fact that the people COULD vote out the Sandinistas speaks volumes about what they accomplished. Not a strong argument for the Chavez-Castro School of Demagoguery in that comment.

As for Bush following Mussolini's tenets, he sure accomplished 1 and 2, and took a good crack at three, but our system is resilient enough to prevent further damage.

I believe the US needs to overhaul many of the ways in which we deal with the world, that our system is flawed but repairable. Maybe some of you would suggest we need a good socialist strong-man to fix it, but I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:22 PM

Folks are making lots of assumptions based on very little data, IMO.

What is clear is that Chavez took his business to China--specifically, his oil. That should be an indicator that he was no longer happy selling to the north. He has antagonized the USA (recall gas at really low prices for Americans who were too poor to afford the prices in the US?).

We in Canada know exactly how it feels to piss off the most powerful country in the world. The damage to our economy caused by Mad Cow Disease was unnecessary, but we got it between the eyes. (I always felt that's because we chose not to be part of "The Coalition of the Willing", preferring instead to follow the UN's lead.)

It would not surprise me to find out that the US has people (people who have bulges under their arms and receivers in their ears) helping to keep stuff hopping in Venezuela. A change of leaders would be one helluva lot easier than having to go through all the lead-up to an invasion of yet another oil-rich country.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:38 PM

...the people COULD vote out the Sandinistas ...

The people of Venezuela have had the opportunity last year to vote out Chavez, and declined to do so. In fact his vote went up. Hundreds of international monitors confirmed that it was a fair and democratic election. It just so happened it didn't go the way Bush would have liked it to go.

When the next election comes up they can expect to have another opportunity to vote Chavez or his successor out, if they so wish. That is, so long as a successful coup cannot be engineered to put in power a regime that would be more to the liking of Washington, which is a real possibility, and one which lies behind the actions that sparked off this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

Some words from the Venezuelan who started and owns the blog, The Devil's Excrement, the link of which I posted earlier:

Written from the Venezuelan provinces, this blog started as private letters to my friends overseas, letters narrating the difficult days of the 2002/2003 strike in Venezuela. These letters became this mix of news, comments, pictures of the Venezuelan situation. Unknowingly, I have written the diary of Venezuela slow descent into authoritarianism, the slow erosion of our liberties, the takeover of the country by a military caste, the surrendering of our soul to our inner demons.

Also, posted by another Venezuelan regular there, to the tune of American Pie:

Venezuelan Pie: music and bolivarian poetry

A long, long time ago
I can still remember
How your speeches used to make me smile
And I knew if you had a chance
You could make those people dance
And maybe they'd be happy for life
But May 28 made me shiver
With the bad news you delivered
No more RC on the TV
Just because you said it had to be
I have to wonder if you cried
Cause it seems they wounded your pride
And I realized down deep inside
That was the day the Robolution died

So bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And the Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

I remember back in 98
Everybody thought you were great
Didn't we all tell you so?
Then you wrote the book in blue
And we put all our faith in you
To follow wherever you would go
Well, I know you were a coupster too
But I thought that you had paid your dues
And turned over a new leaf
Not taking power like a thief
And all those guys before you sucked
A blow for freedom I thought you'd struck
But I knew I was out of luck
The day the Robolution died

I started singing
Bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And those Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

Now for eight years we've been led by you
And it hasn't been perfect, yes that's true
But that's the price of being empire-free
Like the endogenous economy
Seems to mean more of you and less of me
Well, if that's how it has to be
You promised a new future for our land
And we were eating out of your hand
We leftists finally got our turn
The IVth would never return
And you quoted Lenin and Marx
Though in their time they missed the mark
Now we're singing dirges in the dark
On the day the Robolution died

Now we're singing
Bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And those Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

Now I probably should have got a clue
By those other things you used to do
But I wanted so bad to believe
You packed the Assembly and courts too
With folks who never would argue
And it seemed you'd never want to leave
And oil prices have been sky-high
And there's still not enough food to buy
But I thought I'd still give you a chance
Because I liked your anti-Bush stance
But now though the country appealed
You say you'll never, ever yield
Your autocratic ways were not concealed
The day the Robolution died

--- --- --- --- ---

OK, maybe hard to sing on occasion as the meter blows from the original, but still, the point comes across, no?

FWIW,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:14 PM

My apologies...the above(lyrics) were copied from a blog which is accessed off of the Devil's Excrement: click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:53 PM

My question is, if Bush were to do what Chavez is doing, what comments would be made here about the situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

What's Chavez doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM

Back in 2002 that station helped to overthrow a democratically elected government. (That government [Chavez's] WAS overthrown for two days.) Chavez let it continue to broadcast for five years. It didn't renew its broadcast license.

I think Chavez has made PR error, big time. However, if he was the monster some are trying to make him out to be, some folks woulda disappeared already.

If Bush did that, I have no idea what people would say. He's such a bad President that I'm sure it wouldn't be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:36 PM

There haven't been any armed coups against the elected government in the USA, so the question of what would be appropriate in regard to any TV channels that supported and encouraged such a coup does not arise.

(I know some people have said that what happened in November 2000 was a kind of coup against the elected government, but that's another matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:54 AM

Lonesome EJ:

Ok, you make a fair point about the ascent to power of the dictator. I believe it is one of our duties as citizens of democracies to keep a close eye on those in power to make sure they don't seize absolute power. It is almost more important to keep an eye on the oligarchs, as they are often the movers and shakers behind a figure head.

If you're interested in history, you might be interested to study how the Roman Republic, almost 700 years old, transformed into first a dictatorship, then an Empire in a relatively short space of time. It might yet prove instructive in the case of the USA.

As for freedom of speech etc.,

Wasn't a journalist fired for publishing photos of US dead coming back from Iraq? Can't show reality too strongly to the public in case they have a change of heart.

My friends stateside reliably inform me that (especially immediately post 9-11) anyone who wanted to protest about the war in Iraq, had to do so in designated 'free speech zones' (which of course also implies that everywhere outside those zones is not free speech!) where they would be out of the public eye.

Which US media criticises the Iraq war and roll-back of civil liberties that accompanies Bush's regime? CNN? Fox? Maybe there's one or two, and they have to watch their P's and Q's.

Have the US population ever been more spied on? You might say if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear. But that's missing the point. Once you go down that road it only depends on who has access to and control of all this information for a free society to degenerate into an un-free one. Don't forget that the words 'democratic' and 'free' mean nothing unless they are applied in practice (as someone already mentioned up the thread). Indeed, it has always struck me as one hallmark of totalitarian regimes how much they bandy about the words 'democratic' 'people's' and 'free' as if to make up for the actual deficit.

Once again, read the history of Rome's transformation from ancient Republic to autocratic Empire. It happens more easily and quickly than you might think.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM

Venezuelan Currency Weakens as Demand for U.S. Dollars Jumps

By Guillermo Parra-Bernal

June 4 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's currency weakened in unregulated markets as investors and companies bought dollars to protect their money from quickening inflation.

The bolivar weakened in the parallel market to 4,110 bolivars to the U.S. dollar at 4:30 p.m. New York time from 4,080 bolivars on June 1, traders said. The decline widened the bolivar's losses this year to 21 percent, the biggest drop among 72 currencies tracked by Bloomberg.

Venezuelans are pulling money out of the country as a two- fold increase in government spending over the past two years flooded the economy with bolivars and fueled the highest inflation rate in Latin America. Annual inflation accelerated in May to 19.5 percent, the fastest in three months.

Opponents to President Hugo Chavez and supporters of Radio Caracas Television, Venezuela's most-watched channel that Chavez closed on May 27, peacefully protested in Caracas and other cities today, the ninth day of demonstrations, adding to investors' concerns. The closure triggered criticism that Chavez was curbing free speech. Investors will be attentive to the marches, said Henry Travieso, a trader with Global Capital Valores in Caracas.

``You could call the situation a tense calm,'' said Giorgio Milani, a trader with Caracas-based Sequoian Sociedad de Corretaje de Valores CA, said. ``There are several reasons why demand for dollars should remain high for some time: the politics, the excess liquidity, consumer prices.''

Venezuela pegs the bolivar at an official exchange rate of 2,150 bolivars per dollar under restrictions Chavez imposed in February 2004. Venezuelans turn to unregulated markets when they can't get approval from the government's Foreign Exchange Administration Commission to buy dollars at the official exchange rate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aiAqGalFOjCQ&refer=news

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

A total of 182 people _ mostly university students and minors _ have been detained in nearly 100 protests since Sunday, Justice Minister Pedro Carreno said late Tuesday. At least 30 were charged with violent acts, prosecutors said, but it was unclear how many remained behind bars.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053001867.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:25 PM

Sheesh. More folks than that have been detained for less in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM

If Chavez models his civil rights on what seems accepted practice for the USA today that would be pretty bad news...