BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM

But no one here is talking about illegal immigrants, Bonzo. These were people who were brought to the UK to help build our post war workforce, have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK all their lives and now are faced with deportation due to the heartless and callous government that you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM

Yes Dave, but how do you tell the difference?
The Windrush generation are legal and welcome, or should be, but some have been left exposed to false doubt by changes to the rules.

It should not have happened, but what more could be done for them now by the government?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM

Deportee

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

Let's stop calling our fellow human beings "illegal" or "illegals." If you can throw out ugly terms like that there's something wrong with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:56 AM

All countries have restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

Illegal immigrants - they are what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

The people being discussed are not and never have been illegal immigrants, Bonzo. WTF are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

Jolly good!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:52 PM

Yes Dave, but how do you tell the difference?

You look for evidence that they are illegal immigrants, rather than assume they are here illegally, and throw the burden on them to find evidence that they are here legally.

If someone asked you to prove you were legally entitled to live here, and you couldn't get hold of a UK birth certificate, and didn’t have a passport, are you sure you could do so?
......................
Bonzo, I'm afraid you haven't actually registered that these people came here legally, as British subjects, born under the Union Jack, just not in the British Isles. They had every legal right to be there, and the British Government has now accepted that this was a giant cock-up.

It's different from what's happening in your countries - though the same kind of attitudes seem to lie behind the policy that's been followed for so many years. Keep Out.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:19 AM

You look for evidence that they are illegal immigrants, rather than assume they are here illegally,

There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

The problem here is that the Windrush generation were left with no evidence of their status, and given none. The system let them down, or more accurately betrayed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

"All countries have restrictions. "
Sez it all really - OK to turn ordinary people into criminals and deport them as long as it's sanctioned by Governments
There's a word for that Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:55 AM

Jim - Don't do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:55 AM

There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

Of course there is. it may be harder to assemble than a presumption of illegality, but it is necessary in any system aspiring to be committed to justice. That's why courts have to prove guilt rather than the accused to prove innocence.

Evidence about the circumstances of how someone came here and where they came from can provide evidence of illegality. It would then be up to the individual to counter that, if it could be countered. In the case of the Windrush generation any proof of the circumstances of their arrival would in itself serve to undermine any accusation of illegal status. If the authorities wished to counter that they would need to find some other evidence that for some reason their presence was actually illegal.

As I asked, Keith, how would you go about proving your legal right to be here if challenged?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

"Jim - Don't do it! "
Wasn't going to - woke up in a good mood this morning
These expulsions have been going on for at least eight years
A West Indian/British woman interviewed this morning described how a relative visited family and on his return was refused an entry visa - still hasn't been able to return home despite petitions
Not only has it been happening, it's been covered up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

The whole thing is shameful. These people were used, plain and simple, to get the country back on its feet. They uprooted themselves, offered their labour and suffered racial abuse, low wages and poor accommodation. Then years later, used again to show how marvellous we are at reducing 'illegal immigrant' figures. They're just pawns in a political game.
They are NOT illegal immigrants in any sense. We should be thanking them profusely for their help at a time when we needed it.
The fact that the majority are black means that the racial persecution is even more despicable.
The Home Secretary should resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

And after Brexit we'll have it happening all over again. Go back to Poland to go to the dentist and they'll stop you at Dover.

But at least they'll have the freedom to settle all over Europe, which the British won't have.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:20 AM

Kevin,
There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

Of course there is.

I do not accept that. It is possible to prove you are legal, but absence of such proof is the only way to prove illegality.

As I asked, Keith, how would you go about proving your legal right to be here if challenged?

Birth Certificate. The problem is with folk born overseas and arrived as children without needing documentation then, but needing it now.

Jim,
"All countries have restrictions. "
Sez it all really - OK to turn ordinary people into criminals and deport them as long as it's sanctioned by Governments

What it sez is that no country allows unrestricted entry. It sez it is unfair to criticise this country for being the same as every other.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

Are you really defending a sick act that a Government has been forced to apologise for Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

A statement like 'all countries have restrictions' is entirely helpful, and potentially dangerous.

While all countries made their own legislation, in areas concerning migration, changes to legislation must only apply to those from the point legislation changes, and it is the responsibility of government to prove the status beyond any doubt whatsoever of the individual, not the responsibility of the individual to prove otherwise.

Further, the government has placed a further burdon on employers and service providers to seek irrefutable proof of entitlemenr on pain of financial penalties.

The whole issue has nothing to do whatsover whether the individual has documentary proof whether or not they are acting legally or illegally (lets take a hypothetical case where the CPS has the power to prosecute anyone who cannot provide proof that they have never shoplifted. The whole issue is 100% around the hostile environment policy, and I look forward to successful prosecutions against employers for direct discrimination on the ground of refusing employment to avoid being prosecuted for obeying hostile environment legislation, health services for refusing treatment, landlords for refusing tenancies etc. As it is 100% a party policy their must be no recourse whatsoever to the tax payer for any compnsation, but but be raised 100% by the tory party and its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:05 AM

The question of "restrictions" do not apply to this case - those who are experiencing problems now are legally here and are so as the repayment of a debt own to ex colonial countries whose exploitation made Britain the wealthiest and placed here among the most powerful in the world
In my opinion, that debt was only partially paid, but if people included in its payment are treated as they are being, god help those still suffering with the hangover of Empire
What we are seeing here is the effects of a "don't blame us - it's all these foreigners faults that you are having problems" scapegoating policy
It's a policy that sent millions to the extermination camps during my lifetime
The rise in racism in Britain is an indication that things could get worse in this respect
Why blame Britain for something others do?
Because in acting the way they do our government has shames us all - that's why
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM

What we are seeing here is the effects of a "don't blame us - it's all these foreigners faults that you are having problems" scapegoating policy

No it is not.
No-one has supported what has happened and there has been no "scapegoating."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

You are defending something that your Government has agreed was wrong and has grovellingly apologised for
All the debate surrounding immigration is about scapegoating - it always has been since the days of "they are only here to steal or jobs and women
Sorry - no intention of becoming involved with someone even more extreme - I'll leave you to your anti-immigration soab-boxingthan those who implemented inhuman policy in the first place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM

Jim,
You are defending something that your Government has agreed was wrong

A blatant lie Jim. Quote me doing it.

SPB,
The whole issue is 100% around the hostile environment policy,.....As it is 100% a party policy

Labour's last Immigration Minister said he wanted to create "a much more hostile environment" to "flush out" illegal migrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:04 AM

The Government have just announced they have refused visas to 100 new Indian doctors hired by the NHS
Worse and worse- we need to hang our heads in shame (all but one of us, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:30 AM

400 VISAS
My mistake - that shou;d be 400 VISAS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:47 AM

Refusing qualified doctors from non-EU countries is mad. As Jim's article says, there's already a grave shortage of staff, and the existing doctors will have to extend their hours to cover the gaps, or lengthen waiting lists for treatment. Where's the advantage in that?

I drove my neighbour to an Outpatients appointment recently at our Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital, and sitting in the waiting area, we noticed the wide variety of nationalities among the staff that passed through. It was lovely to see; Indian, African, Philippine, Chinese and so on. All no doubt desperately needed (porters, nurses, doctors, receptionists and so on)

They seem to be cutting off their noses to spite their faces by turning these valuable folk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

This has been the situatiion from as far back as the Notting Hill Race riots
I remember a wonderful cartoon by Giles when I was a young man, which showed wounded rioting racist thugs being carried into a hospital to be treated by black doctors - sums it all up for me - some people would rather be in painn that be treated by a "foreigner"
Mad - mad - mad - sad world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:06 AM

Our optician is a lovely Nigerian chap. The trouble is, he and my husband and I natter away together, and the eye tests always run over time. hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

"The trouble is, he and my husband and I natter away together,"
My problem is our doctor who is also a friend and we share an interest in traditional music and historical novels - not good with a waiting room full of patients
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

We're terrible natterers Jim.
Just today at the checkout in Asda, we were behind another mixed-race couple. We all smiled, then we got chatting. The man was a black African and his wife white English, just like us. They also spoke French, and that was it. Yap yap yap. I had bought a tub of ice-cream, and it was slowly melting. But it was so lovely to have a natter.

I liked your description of the Giles cartoon. I bet these racist idiots would be only too relieved to have emergency treatment for a loved one by any nationality at all when the chips were down.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:14 AM

Our medical people in rural Ireland tend to be somewhat more part of the community than I ever remember happening in London - not always an advantage
i remamber drinking with a friend in our local and his being told by the publican that he had been ordered off the drink by his local doctor - news travels fast in the countryside
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:49 AM

Refusing qualified doctors from non-EU countries is mad.

Not just doctors. We have a neighbour from India who's a qualified dentist. So he's got a job in a convenience store while he goes through a long process which he hopes will end up allowing to work as a dentist.

After Brexit the same kind of thing will no doubt be happening to people from EU countries.

And the extra pressure being imposed on health workers by the shortages is meaning more and more professionals are giving up, heading off to places like Australia - or in the case of people at the lower end of the wage scale, going off to jobs with less pressure and more money, such as supermarkets.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

McGrath, is that the Home Office or is that an issue of his qualifications not being recognised in the UK? Not sure what the arrangements are for reciprocal recognition of dentistry qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:00 PM

Amber Rudd appears to be fighting for her political career
First she denied there were targets for forcing immigrants to return - now she has admitted that there was “a target of achieving 12,800 enforced returns in 2017-18” and that this target had been exceeded."
It is reckoned that if Rudd is forced to resign May's position will be extremely insecure
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:28 AM

She now says she had not read the memo giving details of targets for deporting immigrants. She is either lying or incompetent. Either way she needs to resign. With Rudd as home secretary, BoJo as foreign secretery and a dithering May as PM it is little wonder that the UK has become a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:08 AM

I wonder what May promised Amber for taking the crotch-kicks on her behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:26 AM

Diane Abbott on R4 today acknowledged that a Labour government would also have had targets for enforced returns.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:08 AM

There's a hell of a difference between keeping records of what you have done, including any kind of enforced returns, and having targets. What's tended to happen is that the Home Office has been sloppy with keeping records (when they haven't actually destroyed them) but had some quite inappropriate targets.

I would hope Diana Abbot would indeed ensure that under a Labour government a close eye will be kept on the numbers of enforced returns.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

"
Diane Abbott on R4 today acknowledged that a Labour government would also have had targets for enforced returns.
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
Asked how the targets had impacted on Windrush migrants, Ms Abbott said: "Immigration officials may have been looking for soft targets in the shape of West Indian pensioners who don't have hot shot lawyers."
Her Labour frontbench colleague, Dawn Butler, told the BBC's Daily Politics Mrs May was "presiding over a government that has policies that are institutionally racist".
Amazing how you can present a party's policy if you listen with your ears closed tightly enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM

Labour's policy was also to expel illegals.
The Windrush folk were not illegal but had been left by successive governments with no way to prove it.

Gove on R4 with Abbott said that Labour had "weaponised" this issue to divert attention from their anti-Semitism scandals.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:08 AM

What people need to know about Gove


In a BBC interview with Fern Britton, Gove said he knew the phrase “doing a Gove” had become synonymous with backstabbing, and that May had been right to sack him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:37 AM

It was OK for Jim to quote anti-Tory accusations from Diane Abbott and Dawn Butler, so I assumed it OK to quote a Tory minister on Labour.

Let us try to be fair on this Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:48 AM

Maybe it's best not to trust Gove with the big things.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

...or with anything at all

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:58 AM

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 1
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-live-radio-interview-immigration-figures-conservatives-nick-ferrari-dianne-abbott-a7742746.html

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 2
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-immigration-spain-vote-leave-criticised-a7085336.html

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 3
http://www.thenational.scot/community/15073732.Letters_I__Michael_Gove_told_us_Scotland_would_get_greater_control_over_immigration_post_Brexit/

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 4
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable


The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on The Peace Process
BELFAST AGREEMENT A "RIGGED REFERENDUM" AND A MORTAL STAIN "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

So could you flesh out your claim that Diane Abbot has said that Labour will have "targets" for enforced deputation, Keith? It sounds very unlikely that that is an accurate summary of whatever she may have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:04 PM

In answer to a question, she stated that a Labour government would have such targets.
It was between 08.10 and 08.30. It starts at 07.00
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b0lwgd

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM

" "targets" for enforced deputation, Keith?"
Typical of Keith's disortion - under pressure Abbot said that Labour would have a policy of the return of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
Nobody has ever suggested that such immigrants should remain bu this has nothing to do with the Windrush generation who are in Britain perfectly legally and were given no documentation on entry - just a total agrreement that thye should have a permanent home in Britian
Where do we get these ****** fanatics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:08 PM

I confidentially assume that, if Diane Abbot actually said and intended to say anything that actually matches Keith's interpretation, it will be reported across the media prominently, and that she can expect to be sacked by Corbyn very rapidly.

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:23 PM

Jim,
Typical of Keith's disortion - under pressure Abbot said that Labour would have a policy of the return of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

Yes, just like the Tories.
Neither would have targets for returning legal ones.

kevin, I gave you the link. I will give the actual quote later or tomorow.
Why not listen yourself before making insinuations?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:22 PM

"We are talking about enforced removals. We are talking about illegal immigrants. People who shouldn't be in the country at this time. Would not the Labour Party have targets for the removal of illegal immigrants?"

Abbott, "I just said to you any government department should have targets and performance indicators."