BS: What causes AIDS?

Subject: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM

Well, what a friggin' crock of crap tirade by the good professor Harari of the Weismann Institute of Science, whatever that
is...

It is filled will screwy thinking.

Fir instance, he says more people die of AIDS in Africa every day than died on 9/11, 'er whatever he was trying to say. This makes this ol' hillbilly really mad to hear this crap. (But, Bobert, them Aficans f**k like rabbits. The'll f**k anything that moves. They're just a bunch of bone through the nose savages...)

Well, there's one of the largest lies being told. Make Bush's lies seem like little white lies. Actually, in spite of professor Harari's not-so-extensive research is that not only do most Africans **not** "f**k like rabbits, but that they test positive for AIDS because they are grossly malnourished from the abject poverty, lack of food, clean water and health care... Like does the good professor klnow that medically a malnourished individual can test positive for AIDS? Heck no, he doesn't, because he isn't too informed or enlightened...

The above passage (sic) was written by Bobert in an anti-Israeli rant in the latest Mudcat Middle East thread. Commenting on the ridiculousness of Bobert's misinformation on AIDS belongs in a thread of its own.

To begin with, the Israeli professor is absolutely correct and Bobert is absolutely wrong about the numbers of AIDS deaths in Africa every day. In 2002, more than 2.4 million people in sub-Sahara Africa died of AIDS. That works out to more than 6,575 people per day. Far more than the 2800 hundred who were murdered in the events of 9/11.

Bobert goes on to say that most Africans with AIDS have AIDS because they are malnourished. That is absolutely false.

Malnutrition is a huge problem in Africa. However, HIV infection, through exposure in the blood is the sole cause of AIDS. Malnutrion further weakens the body's immune system so that full blown AIDS will manifest itself sooner in someone who is malnourished. However, contrary to what Bobert says, no one gets AIDS from malnutrition.

Please ignore the false and dangerous information being propagated by Bobert. There is extensive information available at the AIDS in Africa website.

The AIDS in Africa website.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:36 AM

In a new post in the Middle East thread, Bobert further writes:

Probably the largest body of reseach that malnourishment, poverty, bad water etc. can lead to false positiive for HIV/AIDS (not to say one necessarily leads to another...) testing has been accumulated and published by:

Dr. Gary Null

(www.garynull.com)

First of all, Gary Null is not a doctor. He is a nutritonal supplement salesman whose AIDS theories have been completely discredited by the scientific AIDS community.

Again, please ignore the false and dangerous information being propagated by Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:55 AM

GUEST, I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. I read what Bobert wrote and it seems he is not endorsing, but disputing these findings.

At least that's what I'm reading here.

Would you please indicate where you found this thread as I'd like to read it in context.

From what I've read on Mudcat from Bobert, I really think you might have misunderstood what he was saying...

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:59 AM

Bobert's ridiculous claims are in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:03 PM

Feel better, GUEST, act up...

First fir your assertion about the anti-Isreali Tirade. Saying that both Isreal and the Palestinians have a right to exist hardly puts me in some extremist camp. Perhaps you'd like to illucidate on why thinking the Palestinians have a right to exist is such a radical concept....

Second of all, you discredit (Dr.) Gary Null because of your small minded AMA paradime. A doctor is one who comforts and works to heal those who are sick. In that vien, Gary Null is more of a doctor than plenty of state certified AMA'ers who are currently "practicing" medicine, including a few I've gone to who were highly recommended...

Thirdly, have you taken the time to review (Dr.) Nulls writings? Have you taken the time to hear a (Dr.) Null lecture? Are you even aware that research models exist out of the arena of the sacred AMA? Do you have any experience with successes of alternative treatments?

It doesn't sound, from your kneejerk reaction, that you have...

Lastly, if the number of people in Africa dieing could be vastly deceased from AIDS-like symptoms with food, fresh water and better health care, rather than propogating racist PR pablum about Adircan behavior, wouldn't that make more sense? If not, why do you feel that continuimng to place blame on the genocide that is plaguing parts of Africans at the feet of those dieing? It's a much bigger story than is being told...

And lastly, Part 2: The mind is like a parachute, its usless if it isn't open...

Now go on with more of yer misinterpreting and knee-jerkin'. I mean, like, knock yerself out...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:16 PM

I'm interested in that thread and plan to read it in it's entirety.

But I think I'll just let the two of you have at it here.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:19 PM

Ellenpolly, at first I thought you were right, but then I re-read what Bobert had written...a couple of times.

He's actually criticizing the professor for not 'knowing' you can get aids from malnutrition. You don't get colds from not wearing a hat in the winter, and you don't get infected with the HIV virus from being malnourished. A person might be more susceptible to the ravages of HIV if they're malnourished, but they won't GET it.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:24 PM

Gary Null has never claimed he is a doctor and has never referred to himself as Dr.

However, he does have an honorary PH.D from the University of Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:37 PM

No, you don't get AIDS from malnutrition. But there is at least a body of eveidence that folks suffering from severe malnutrtion, bad water and poor health care, of which the vast majority of "supposed" African AIDS infected people suffer, will test positive for the AIDS viris, though not actually infected...

Which brings us around to "bumper sticker" thinking by Westerners that these folks is just bad people 'cause of their behavior when genocide thru starvation is the real story. But that doesn't fit "bumper sticker" thinking and isn't as nice a story to tell folks who have a McDonald's on every corner...

As fir degrees? Most are purdy danged usless. In most cases all they represent is an individuals tolerance to be hazed for 4, 6 or more years to prove they are "company men and women"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:02 PM

Still need to read that thread, but...on this subject...

I just found this and thought I'd post it here...from

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cjtestfp.htm



Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results

Anti-carbohydrate antibodies (52, 19, 13)
Naturally-occurring antibodies (5, 19)
Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies)(18, 26, 60, 4, 22, 42, 43, 13)
Leprosy (2, 25)
Tuberculosis (25)
Mycobacterium avium (25)
Systemic lupus erythematosus (15, 23)
Renal (kidney) failure (48, 23, 13)
Hemodialysis/renal failure (56, 16, 41, 10, 49)
Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients (54)
Flu (36)
Flu vaccination (30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43)
Herpes simplex I (27)
Herpes simplex II (11)
Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu)(11)
Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines (11)
Pregnancy in multiparous women (58, 53, 13, 43, 36)
Malaria (6, 12)
High levels of circulating immune complexes (6, 33)
Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) (40, 33)
False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis (17, 48, 33, 10, 49)
Rheumatoid arthritis (36)
Hepatitis B vaccination (28, 21, 40, 43)
Tetanus vaccination (40)
Organ transplantation (1, 36)
Renal transplantation (35, 9, 48, 13, 56)
Anti-lymphocyte antibodies (56, 31)
Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)(31)
Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)(14, 62, 53)
Autoimmune diseases (44, 29, 10, 40, 49, 43): Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis
Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections (59, 48, 43, 53, 40, 13)
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)(40)
Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease (32, 48, 40,10,13, 49, 43, 53)
Primary sclerosing cholangitis (48, 53)
Hepatitis (54)
"Sticky" blood (in Africans) (38, 34, 40)
Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)(62, 40, 3)
Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions (63, 36,13, 49, 43, 41)
Multiple myeloma (10, 43, 53)
HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)(7, 46, 63, 48, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53)
Anti-smooth muscle antibody (48)
Anti-parietal cell antibody (48)
Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)(48)
Anti-Hbc IgM (48)
Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985 (10)
Haemophilia (10, 49)
Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma (43, 53, 9, 48, 13)
Primary biliary cirrhosis (43, 53, 13, 48)
Stevens-Johnson syndrome9, (48, 13)
Q-fever with associated hepatitis (61)
Heat-treated specimens (51, 57, 24, 49, 48)
Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids)(49)
Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells)(49)
Hyperbilirubinemia (10, 13)
Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups)(10, 13, 48)
Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions (10)
Normal human ribonucleoproteins (48,13)
Other retroviruses (8, 55, 14, 48, 13)
Anti-mitochondrial antibodies (48, 13)
Anti-nuclear antibodies (48, 13, 53)
Anti-microsomal antibodies (34)
T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies (48, 13)
Proteins on the filter paper (13)
Epstein-Barr virus (37)
Visceral leishmaniasis (45)
Receptive anal sex (39, 64)

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:02 PM

How do you test positive for the virus when you don't have it? AIDS testing is not like drug testing where eating the wrong foods can give you a blood test. I suppose that all the young people here in the states who have died and are dying are just malnourished. How about this spin on things....malnourishment is a symptom of aids related illnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:09 PM

All tests can result in one of five results: true positive, true negative, false positive, false negative, or inconclusive. The strength of any particular test for anything is the potential for each of these results.

Now you may continue with the dispute.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM

You might test as "uncertain", which some people might read as "positive."

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:25 PM

The issue I seized on in Bobert's original post is not that there may be some instances of false positives in AIDS testing. There is always follow-up testing in positive tests in order to eliminate false positives.

Rather, it was Bobert's claim that Professor Harari's statement, to the effect that more Africans die of AIDS every day than died in the events of 9/11, is racist and false because of false positives induced by malnutrition. Bobert said the professor's statement was "a friggin' crock of crap," that it was "one of the largest lies being told. Make Bush's lies seem like little white lies."

However, the FACT is that Professor Harari was correct. As I pointed out, in 2002, more than 2.4 million people in sub-Sahara Africa died of AIDS. That works out to more than 6,575 people per day. Far more than the 2800 hundred who were murdered in the events of 9/11.

It is Bobert whose false information is, his words, "a friggin' crock of crap."

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:25 PM

The process is very simple in any medical situation in which "false positives" are possible: (1) You do a fairly simple (and cheap) test. (2) If the person tests positive, than you do a more complicated (and more expensive) test to rule out false positives.

There are conditions and circumstances in which a second, and more accurate, test is either unavailable or impractical, but this is not the case with HIV.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

"...will test positive for the AIDS viris, though not actually infected"

Which test comes up false positive? Do you have a link to an article?

The rapid screening tests sometimes DO show false positives, and should be confirmed with repeated tests, either Western blot (WB) or immunofluorescent assay (IFA). I don't know if malnutrition can lead to a false positive, but I DO know it's the virus that causes AIDS. Malnutrition will certainly help the virus do its dirty work, along with a lack of treatment. The primary factor in an AIDS death, however, is infection with HIV.

There's a danger in people believing what they die from is malnutrition and not AIDS. People die from malnutrition, and it's something to fight, but it's a separate, (although contributory) issue. Passing off AIDS deaths as something else is like saying the dead people in Iraq got that way because they were living in the wrong place. If what you say were true, we could all eat good meals, go out and shoot some smack with our 'blood brothers', fuck like rabbits, and we'll be just fine. There's a danger in trying to tell people that unprotected promiscuous sex as a cultural norm is perfectly fine. Just ONE person who reads what you write, actually believes you, and dies, is just too much.

Unprotected promiscuous sex is just plain dangerous, and finding excuses to try to convince people "it's ok to continue that cultural practice" is a little too close to promoting genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:41 PM

Fact is that according to AMA model we Weesterners find it *convient* to blame 2.4 million African deaths on AIDS and we continue to use AIDS at the poster problem of a much larger problem of poverty and lack of resorces for the African people... I am saying "convient" because this, in some way, lets alot of folks off the hook who are more concerned about consuming *more than their fair share* of the earth's resources. AIDS is very handy in that respect because rather than look towaeds one's self as part of either the problem or solution one can blame the victim.

Thank you, Ellenpoly, fir the quick research. These are the kinds of things that (Dr.) Gary Null talks about.

I wish I knew how to blue clicky things 'cause this ol' hillbilly ain't the only person that is challenging the AMA/Western-Corportate/Harari model. The media sure ain't gonna report it, that's fir danged/corporate sure...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:57 PM

Bobert you have stepped on my toes with your remark about degrees. To dismiss higher education as cavalierly as you have is beyond ignorant! You must really be a dumb hillbilly and not just pretending to play one!

At any rate, although the conditions you cite in Africa are major contributors to the AIDS epidemic and all those things Ellenpolly noted which many people in Africa undoubtdly have will register a false positive AIDS tests, HIV is still transmitted the old fashion way, through behavior! Beliefs, cultural norms, and criminal behavior account for much of the transmission in Africa which occurs predominantly in the heterosexual population.

I did a small research study (upon graduating with a doctorate in Social Work on protective behaviors in graduate students in the Social Work population in 1989. It is widely cited in the literature on AIDS protective behaviors and paved the way for AIDs curriculum in Social Work schools across the nation. In my study, nearly 60% of the subjects (admittedly a very small population of 74) had false information, poor information, or were not practicing safe sex! If social work graduate students were that ignorant in 1989, how do you think Africans have faired over the years in instituting protective behaviors?

Shame on you Bobert, for not touting behavioral change as a primary necessity in the fight against HIV/AIDS infection. And shame on you for not noting that the oppression of women is a primary reason that AIDS is so rampant in Africa.

love, harpy

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:13 PM

Bobert, you are generally a pretty smart guy, and I tend to agree with many of the points you make. However, I think you are way out on a limb over the swamp on this one. You may not be aware that Mr. Null (his degree is questionable, if not bogus) has been a subject of Quack Watch, which says, among other things, that Gary Null, whose book jackets bill him as "one of America's leading health and fitness advocates," is one of the nation's leading promoters of dubious treatment for serious disease.   Hull himself says, in this article, that "no one, I repeat, no one under ANY circumstances should have the HIV test. It is a fraud. A complete and total fraud. Why is it a fraud? Because there's no "gold standard." That means that it is impossible to claim that HIV has been present in all AIDS cases." This is flat out murder for those individuals who have the HIV virus and could have their lives saved with treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM

Hey Bobert,

For $299, you too can get the PhD just like the one Gary Null bought.


Null says he holds an associate degree in business administration from Mountain State College in West Virginia, a bachelor's
degree from Thomas A. Edison State College in New Jersey, and a PhD in human nutrition and public health sciences from The
Union Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio. Edison State, a "nontraditional" school with neither campus nor courses, awards accredited
bachelor's degrees based on career experience, equivalency exams, and courses taken at other schools.

The Union Institute is also accredited, but its degree requirements and standards for health-related doctoral degrees differ
greatly from those of traditional universities. Students design their own program, form and chair their own doctoral committee,
and are required to attend only an introductory colloquium and a few interdisciplinary seminars. Null's PhD committee was
composed of a "core faculty member," three "adjunct professors," two "peers," and a "second core reader." The "core faculty
member" is a well-credentialed academician whose expertise (in geologic sciences) is unrelated to Null's topic. One of the three
"adjunct professors" was Martin Feldman, MD, a "complementary" physician (and "clinical ecologist") who has pinch-hit for
Null as a radio host and helped develop some of Null's books and supplement formulations. When I asked a school official
about the background or location of the other two "adjunct professors," he replied that information was in storage and was too
difficult to obtain.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Little Doofus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:43 PM

Mama, I swear I ain't one of them gay boys. I swear I ain't been havin' sex no how. Sure 'nuff now without a rubber con-dome. I been to Doc Bobert and he sez I'm just malnourished.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:45 PM

GEtcher facts straight, Guest. The Union Insititute is accredited, number one, and number two its PhD degree costs a damn sight more than no $299!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM

It is very dangerous to start thinking that a good diet will prevent HIV infection (and subsequently AIDS). The methods of HIV trsnsmission have been determined: exchange of body fluids (semen, blood), transfusion of contaminated blood, use of contaminated needles. There may be a corelation between a lower infection rate amongst people who eat well, but I would think that comes from a better life style occasioned by a better income occasioned by a better education. The key then would be education, not food. Thinking that AIDS can be prevented by a good diet is very foolish, and the promulgation of that type of thought is criminal. And if it isn't, it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:32 PM

(Dr) Null's expertise on AIDS is in line with his quackery in other areas. This too from Null:

Magnetic therapy can help the body ward off such microbial invaders as viruses, bacteria, and fungi. It achieves this, in part, by increasing immune function through the oxygenation of white corpuscles, an important part of the immune system's arsenal. A magnetic field can also function like an antibiotic by lowering acid, with the result that microorganisms have a more difficult time surviving.

Sometimes, snake-oil salesmen can cost you a lot more than the $30 you blew on the Ionizer bracelet.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:37 PM

And if that's not bad enough ... winner of the top Pigasus Award 2003:

Category #1, for the government official who said or did the silliest thing related to pseudoscience or the occult in the year 2003, goes to South African Minister of Health Dr. Manto Tshabala-Msimang, who claimed, and continues to claim, that treatment with "garlic, herbs, and liver" is not only most efficacious in the treatment of HIV-AIDS, tuberculosis, and other deadly diseases, but is far superior to Western medicine. She also believes, in agreement with Thabo Mbeki, President of the African National Congress and President of South Africa, that AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus. The death rate in South Africa has soared, with an estimated 5.3 million of its 45 million people (12%) now HIV-infected.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

Well, as fir attacking someone who has the courage to stand up to the AMA, and Western African?AIDS PR crap, I would expect the same ol' cast of characters who are generally first to stand up and sing the company song...

I'm not saying there aren't AIDS cases in Africa but what I am saying is that it is very convient to look at a continent where lots of people are dieing of starvation and environmental issues and lay the blame on sexual behavior on that group of people. It may provide some temporary relef from the guilt and denial but it sure ain't part of the solution...

Now as fir the degrees, harpy, you even admit that those Social Work gard students weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer but since yer in "Bobert Buddies Column" I'll apologize fir the generization. BTW, my last "save the world" job was a Social Worker working in Adult Services in Richmond, Va. where for 8 years I worked primarilly with revolving door mental health folks and the elderly but I got into Social Work thru the back door using my 1st degree in Education to get a job as a GED teac her in the Richmond City Jail which got me a job in a drug rehab. program (Rubicon) which somehow qualified me to become a Social Worker. I worked with a lot of MSW's and have the utmost respect for them, not necessarily for their degreesm but fir their hearts... But enough about that... Please accept my aplogy fir the insensitive generalization about degrees....

But, being the Bobert, I reserve the right to make the same unfounded generalizations about degrees in the future and re-apologize if called to do so...

BTW, anyone wanting to pay $299 per degree, I got two of them ya' can buy. That'll be $598 + shipping and handling. I accept PayPal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: mg
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:56 PM

oh indeed talking about the need for restraints on sexual behavior is absolutely part of the solution. And of course AIDS will most likely ravage a body faster with bad nutrition, and if the farmers have AIDS, who will grow the food? Especially with the other health issues they have, such as malaria, infectious diseases, parasites etc. And I think that this all can be linked to the "why do they hate us" question from traditional Moslem societies...perhaps they do not hate us but fear what is in store once the cultural restraints are off. And there are other treats in store for us...drug resistant syphilis is spreading. And count on other diseases to spring up unanounced...unprotected sex with multiple partners is an absolute recipe for disease. This is not morality, it is biology. Apply your own morals here or there or whatever but don't shoot the messenger. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:11 PM

Harpy, sweetie, don't confuse a degree in social work with an academic degree. An academic degree (mathematics, physics for example) are honorable degrees.

Soial work is a bullshit degree obtainable with no academic background.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:26 PM

GUEST: That statement came from someone with a Master's in BS.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:34 PM

Ouch, GUEST!

Well, gol dangit, since when were math and physics the only honorable stuff to learn? Shoot, everybody has to get about the same crap the first couple of years 'er so... Don't matter if ya want to help people 'er blow 'um up...

2 English, 2 lits, 2 psychs, 2 maths, 2 sciences, 2 poli-scis, maybe a couple economics, etc... By the time ya get done with the basics yer lookin' at about 60 'er 70 credit hours behind ya... Then you get a few tough 300 level course in yer major and the 400 course, should you get that far you can cruise thru...

But I'll tell ya what, if I gotta spend the rest o' my life on a desert island wid either a math major or a social work major, I'll take the latter, thank you...

And so would the Wes Ginny Slide Rule..

But a big ol' pie-r-squared to ya anyway...

Yo, mary garvey... Abstainence is not reasonable or realistic solution no matter how much you happen to believe in it. This is the real world. With that said I don't believe you are considering what a lot of folks allready are beginning to talk about: the "so called" AIDS epedemic in Africa may very well not be that at all but the effects of a lot of folks starving to death and without fresh water to drink. Can you at least consider that maybe we are not being told the truth?
Like Ellenpoly pointed out above. There are alot of other diseases which will produce positives for AIDS that are prevalent in Africa. TB being one biggie... But you might want to look back over that list and think how many of these conditions might be related to... or worsened to a lack of food and water and adequate housing and bad medical care, etc...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

"Well, as fir attacking someone who has the courage to stand up to the AMA, and Western African?AIDS PR crap, I would expect the same ol' cast of characters who are generally first to stand up and sing the company song..."

It's frustrating for me, and really hinders attempts to find the 'truth' in anything, when people take facts and spin them to weave their own 'company song', whichever company it is. It bugs me when people are too willing to believe a certain point of view just because the particular spin suits their politics.

Politics shouldn't be the most important factor in this, it really shouldn't be a factor at all. Saying the World Health Organization, Doctors Without Borders, and everyone involved in trying to treat those with AIDS and prevent future infections are lying or trying to provided un-needed help, just doesn't make any sense. When what you believe is determined by which 'side' you're on, truth doesn't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 05:13 PM

When what you believe is determined by which 'side' you're on, truth doesn't stand a chance.

The truth never stood a chance with Bobert.

Bobert's hillbilly act was kind of funny the first three or four hundred times he used it. But, it's worn very thin the last couple of years.

On this issue in particular, the thinking of the Boberts of this world is downright dangerous. At least its somewhat heartening to see that he's a choir of one on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 05:37 PM

I have found it difficult to believe that AIDS just magically appeared in 1984 (?). Always seemed to me like a lab experiment gone wrong. I think it was Clancy in one of his novels who said that AIDS does in ten years what ebola does in ten days. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 05:40 PM

Not too fast, Act Up... There do seem to be a few other folk here who aren't completely sold by the Boss Hog/AMA song and dance routine an' I suspect as this thread continues there will be others so don't be to quick to carve out "Victory Circle" all fir yerseff...

Just remember what Einstein said about solving problems. They can't be solved with the "same consciencousness that created them", 'er somethin' real close to that. No, he we're no hillbilly but in that observation there is a nugget of thruth on how best to intervene on the human tagedy in Africa and it may very well not be in looking at it as a behavioral problem of those dieing but a geo-political one that goes beyond abstainence and blame...

Now if you wanta gloat, Act up, have at it? The fat lady ain't sung on this one yet...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 05:53 PM

Uh, Brucie, it didn't "just magically" appear in 1984...it was around alot longer than that...the first diagnosed cases were in Europe in the 70's(before they knew it was aids), where many health workers and rich Africans were returning infected with this strange disease...Now considering that diseases like AIDS and Ebola surfaced in areas like the Congo where there is lots of clear cutting...it is not inconceivable that new viruses (well HIV is a retrovirus) would be unsurfaced along with new animals and plants, and to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance and hindering all efforts to educate and keep people alive. Also to suggest that those millions of people afflicted in AFrica and elsewhere are really afflicted with starvation is just as ignorant and hindering. In fact it is truly offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,harpy
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 05:54 PM

ah heck, Loopie Rocks...I'm not under any false illusions about my intelligence. I know I'm not brilliant. But the social work PhD IS a vigorous academic degree even though it is not a "hard" science. Even the PhD program at Florida State doesn't take dummies. I'm just about the only one in my cohort who isn't either a dean, a full professor with ten books, or a program director of a doctoral program. My career has disappointed my committee, but it has satisfied me.

But, I'm certainly not your average social worker. I'm a Babe in Total Control of Herself. You should know that about me by now...love, harpy

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

Amergin,

Read what I said earlier before you stick your head further up your arse.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 06:34 PM

"those millions of people afflicted in Africa", Amergin, may not be afflicted with AIDS... I don't mean to sound flip here but, what if the reason they were deing was because of TB, malaria or other diseases which are compounded by starvation and lack of clean water which can produce a false positive for AIDS?

Have you completely ruled out this scenerio because of the analysis by Western "medical" community's near-sightedness? Sure, this has been the *only* story but it may very well not be the correct story since so many other diseases can effect these tests.

Yeah, everyone seems real concerned about AIDS and they should be, I'd like to see at least as much attention paid to the human suffering for which we are 100% sure how to cure: food, clean water for starters...

I don't mean to minimalize the devestation of having or knwing someone with AIDS as I have now lost two good friends to the disease but I'm getting just a tad tired, to be repeating myself, of folks who refuse to even consider that AIDS isn't quite the boogieman its been made out to be in the tagedy in Africa... Oh sure, it makes for a convient story. Nice and tidy but it might be flawed and if so then maybe the world needs to rethink its strategy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

Bobert, it's you who are playing Boss Hog's card here. We are NOT talking the AMA, we're talking WHO and the CDC, and MSF, and if you choose to think all those people are lying simply because what they say doesn't fit in with your politics, go on.

There are AIDS epidemics in more places than Africa. It's easier to throw food at people in Africa than provide competent medical personnel, and it really interferes with the profits of large drug companies to make medicines affordable. Providing education to people about AIDS costs money, condoms cost money. Teaching people how to eat isn't required. Treating a disease costs more than feeding people.

Let's talk about how the situation got so bad in the first place. People don't generally give a crap about a serious problem in poor countries that have nothing WE want, except maybe a few compassionate souls. It gets ignored, or labeled 'famine' and it just grows until it gets downright embarrassing. And then, somebody comes along and says, in effect "Nah, we don't have to send 'em nurses, doctors, medicine, educators, lab techs and all that stuff, we don't have to pay for it all, and we don't have to feel bad about taking it seriously a bit earlier, we don't have to figure out what went wrong or who should have acted. Them poor people jes' need some FOOD."

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:44 PM

I recalled that I was looking at the CIA World Fact Book (call me crazy; the CIA has up to date knowledge????)last week.

Anywho, India is fast approaching Africa in death rates and persons living with AIDS. India has poverty, famine, pestilence, and the oppression of women just like Africa. Primarily heterosexually transmitted as well.   http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2157.html

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:52 PM

There's real irony in the potential fact that the Arabic Muslims may be the last population to survive on earth because of their taboos about male and female contact when AIDS has killed off everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

Fair enough, Jeri. So seein' as there isn't any particular world movement to provide drugs and/or treatment for health related problems in Africa, why not provide food and water and see what happens...

Oh, there are lots of folks who will step up and say the we *are* providing the medical care and the drugs thru various organizations, the CDC and the World Health Organization but are we really making the kind of effort that has any chance of sucess? Well, not really. I mean if we are willing to let upwards of a million folks starve ijn Sudan this summer then you can bet those folks certainly have fallen thru the WHO net as well...

And lets also take a look on the Bush AIDS assistence program for Africa. First of all they are not spending the money or writing the checks that he said would be spent. Secondly, it is pushing abstainance at a time, if many of you folks are even half correct, is not a realistic centerpiece of it's educational programs for Africa.

But I'm still suggesting strongly that when this is all said and done there gonna be a few folks sayin' "How did that ol' hillbilly get this one right?" I think the research is badly flawed in favor of a tidy story. Heck, the jury ain't even out on this one yet but should be getting the case somewhere down the road and then I'll resurrect this thread and a local recipe fir crow pie... That's my story and until the jury gets the case and comes back, Iz stickin' to it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:40 PM

One of these interesting problems: the US has sent hundreds of thousands of tons of food aid to Africa, which are most likely crops purchased by the government as part of the price control process. Yet many countries won't accept it, even though it is the same thing we (or at least most of us) eat every day. The reason? It comes from genetically modified seed. I've seen at least one article that says the reason that they have refused it is because they then won't be able to certify their own food exports to Europe as GM-free.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:55 PM

Brucie, I did read what you said, and I do not believe I am the one with his head up his arse. BTW, the firt known cases of AIDS did not take anywhere near ten years, in many many cases it barely took 10 months, if that.

bobert, does it not seem conceivable that many of those people with TB and other lovely diseases may not also be infected with HIV?

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:02 PM

Concievable, A-gin, but with so many other illnesses creating false positives for HIV prevalent in Africa, conceivable is about as far as I'll go. And that's only for some folks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:30 PM

Yes, Amergin, the first talked-about cases I am aware of were some fellows in San Francisco who died from a terrible pneumatic disorder. Now, death takes about ten years, sometimes even longer. That aside, I don't know what you're bitchin' about. Say it clearly, in small words. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM

Hey Guest
I have a MS in Molecular Biology and a doctorate in dental surgery and after half a century on this earth I know people like me haven't done half as much to make OUR world a better place than most of the social workers that I know. Honorable, "academic" degree my ass. There's surely nothing very honorable about going to college and winding up with opinions as foolish as yours.

Bobert-love your willingness to think outside the box but I fear your on shakey ground this time.
All the Best
ATH

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:19 PM

Danged, Augie, I thought it was my bad knee actin' up... Well, I ain't no stranger to shakey ground...

Ahhhh, as fir feeling that yer degree ain't worth as much as a social workers? Next time I got a tooth ache I ain't callin' no social worker...

I will say that social work may sound glorious to some but it ain't. Most of the case load I worked with came directly from Central State Hospital in Petersburg, Va. Most of these folks had been in and out of mental hospitals. Most, no matter what I could do for them, would end up back in mental hospitals. Then came the Reagan administration and the massive cuts in Title XX funds that were used to purchase services, such as adult day care, companion serices, mental health serives, transporation, etc. and all Hell broke loose. That was the beginning of America's homelessness epidemic. Social workers were scrubbing floors and cooking meals and chenging dressings and taking blankets out to folks at night in the dead of winter... Yeah, it wasn't too glamourous at all.

One day I got a call from rooming house I had one of my "clients" in and the landlord was screaming at me that my client had gone into the shared bathroom and decorated the ceilings and walls with his own ith feceses (poop) and, in order to keep that rooming house (which I needed to keep) I had to get the guy out and clean up the mess... Didn't get home until well past midnight that night after getting a Green Warrent when the guy threatened to kill me, getting it served and cleaning all that crap outta that bathroom... No glamour there...

I'm sure that dentistry has its nasty parts but...

Awww, nevermind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM

Here's a reference to my survery research, BTW:http://www.mun.ca/sweaids/doc3part6.html

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:13 PM

You win the nasty contest Bobert-hands down.

I wasn't just blowin smoke about social workers. Some of the best times in my life (well, with a guitar on my lap anyway) were spent picking with a local social worker-also named Bob.He worked with at-risk teens and I think one of the best tools in his work was music.Bob passed unexpectedly 3 or 4 yrs ago at 49 from a heart attack. Each year they still hold a memorial concert/fundraiser in Bob's honor with the most bizarre set of performers, all of whom show up JUST because of Bob.You get the best of our local old rockers and folkies (which leaves me out for sure) covering "our music"along with teens and 20somethings who are still in or who had been in Bob's programs, doing original material. One minute you've got grey haired fat guys doing the Eagles acousticly, the next minute you've got pierced, tatooed, spikey green haired dudes doing original music & sometimes sharing instuments with the old farts.I couldn't generate such great,cross-cultural,cross-generational Karma in 50 lifetimes.Sorry about the thread drift.