BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 04:07 AM

I will continue to wear a poppy at this season (albeit a 'pin badge' these days)
I have worn one each year since very young, and did many years distributing them, and organising distribution. (and counting & banking the money).
I will be in church for the Remembrance service on the nearest Sunday (8/11 this year) although I will continue to wear my poppy until 11th/11th.
I occasionally get a new poppy (old ones get lost etc.) but usually re-use an earlier one. This is not being tight-fisted, the donation still goes in the collecting box.
"I quietly thank God that I have never been called upon to go to war, and also give thanks for those who did so believing that they were standing up for what was right (no matter what the truth may have been).
They have left us a great example of service. My one time GSM (Group Scout Master) had been a P.O.W. in the far east. He would give us yarns of how the men kept each other going. He never forgave the Japanese, and although I believe in forgiveness, and hope I would be able to forgive in similar circumstances, I am not one who is entitled to judge his lack of forgiveness.

"They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them,
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them!"

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 04:09 AM

Apologies - everything except "Amen" was a quote from Nigel's post, and should have been italicised. Bloody stupid HTML, bloody old-fashioned Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM

Interesting how Keith A of Hertford refers to "sacrifice" in this thread. On other threads he reckons that dying in battle through jingoistic ignorance was a justified endeavour.

I used to wear a poppy for the same reasons as others; expectation and not sticking out for what shallow people would call a bad reason. If governments send people to die unnecessarily, the least they can do is look after the veterans rather than expect charities to subsidise the blood on politicians' hands.

There are no WW1 veterans left. Time to move on rather than the sickening revision of history presently being popularised by attention seeking "historians" and their impressionable sycophants.

I wore no poppy this year or last and nobody noticed. Progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:13 AM

"They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them,
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them!"

I visit the spot several times a year where Laurence Binyon wrote his poem, where there's a bench to sit on and a little slate plaque bearing these lines. Beyond the place there's a magnificent view of the Rumps headland beyond pillow lava cliffs. It's one of my very favourite places in the whole world. It's an easy uphill walk from Polzeath on the coast path to a few hundred yards past Pentire Point, though we always park at Pentireglaze farm and do a circular walk from there, taking in the Rumps, where you have to watch your feet. If you do the walk around mid- to late May the steep slopes and cliffs are alive with thrift and bluebells. We never miss!

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:33 AM

On other threads he (Keith) reckons that dying in battle through jingoistic ignorance was a justified endeavour.

I did not and do not.
I deny that they were all ignorant or jingoistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:44 AM

I find it quite, quite scary how British TV presenters, newsreaders, interviewees are all wearing poppies in lockstep. Very very nationalistic, and British nationalism has done one hell of a lot of harm in this world over the centuries. It terrifies me, and seems kind of fascistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

14th September 1914 Battle of Aisne Private David Sinclair

No jingoism or patriotic fervour "I'd better go lass they will call me up soon enough." Janet Sinclair received the telegram every woman dreaded "Missing presumed dead" from that day till her own death in May 1960 Janet Sinclair kept a light lit in the window every night.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:05 AM

I watched the Albert Hall gig on the BBC last night and, to be honest, I can only describe it as mawkish. Don't get me wrong, I think commemorating the dead and reminding oursleves not to do it again is a good thing. I would even go for the pomp and ceremony. But the over-egged display of emotion did nothing for me but put me off visiting the experience again next year. Not even a Jim Radford
moment to cut the saccharine :-(

I also felt the appropriation of the event by the church particularly disturbing. There were many that died who believed in a different god or none at all. Are they not to be commemorated in the same way? Why make it all about Christianity? I guess it was supposed to be uplifting but I found it quite the opposite. Maybe just me...

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 09:26 AM

But is it "reminding ourselves not to do it again"? All the talk of "heroes" and "dying for our country" scarcely seems to give that message.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 09:59 AM

"But is it "reminding ourselves not to do it again""
Obviously not, from the fact that there is not a year since at least the end of W.W.1. when a war hasn't been taking place somewhere on the planet.
Perhaps it would be worth commemorating the fallen by reiterating exactly what these 'official' wars are - basically, young people being shipped off, often forcibly, under threat of punishment, to kill other young people they have never met and have no quarrel with at the behest of politicians.
Not going to happen of course - too many interests at stake.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:37 AM

Well, it is what it reminds me about. Looking at some of the postings on this forum others are not of the same mind. I can only hope that eventually the ones who want to learn from past mistakes will be in the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:07 AM

But is it "reminding ourselves not to do it again"?

So next time we let Hitler have free reign to enslave all those not worthy of putting to death?
Communists were quite high on his list.

I find it quite, quite scary how British TV presenters, newsreaders, interviewees are all wearing poppies in lockstep.

Perhaps they want to acknowledge why they are not restricted to broadcasting propaganda, and in German.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

Professor, is it absolutely NECESSARY for you to continually display your ignorance and uncomprehension? Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:20 AM

It's not about fight or be enslaved. It's about fining a better way. I don't know what it is because I am not clever enough. But someone must be able to figure it out and others must learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

What is rememberance sunday if NOT propaganda. You really should choose your words more carefully.

And before any of you get on your high horses I do think we should remember our dead and endeavour to ensure it doesn't happen again.........and again ....... and again

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 01:37 PM

The Second World War was very different to W.W.1. - one was territorial - about protecting the Empire - the latter was a genuine attempt to stop a real "tyrant" - no comparison.
Even so, Germany was rearmed, and Hitler,could have been stopped before he got started - he was welcomed as a "bulwark against Communism" (Churchill) and despite what was happening to the Jews in Germany, the British authorities were still prepared to appease the fascists right up to the "peace in our time" speech.
There were high-up members of the British establishment whop welcomed Fascism
"Perhaps they want to acknowledge"
And perhasps they have been bullied into wearing one, like the black T.V. presenter who received a barrage of racist hate mail - letters appeared in the press demanding that presenters who wouldn't wear one were sacked.
Gi' us a break
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 02:16 PM

Britain's most decorated enlisted soldier in WW1 was a conscientious objector who never fired a shot
by Tom Martinscroft, 9 November 2014 - History - Ancient, Medieval &

Lance-Corporal William Harold Coltman VC, DCM & Bar, MM & Bar volunteered for Army service in January 1915, but requested to serve as a non-combatant stretcher-bearer due to his religious beliefs.


When 23 year-old Coltman was sent to the Western Front as a rifleman with the North Staffordshire (Prince of Wales) Regiment, the horrors of battle convinced him that helping his wounded colleagues rather than taking the life of the enemy was the greater matter of conscience.

His decision actually placed him in far greater danger than that faced by his comrades. Slightly built and just 5 feet 4 inches tall, he lugged the dead weight of casualties (sometimes on his own, carrying them on his back) across the quagmire of no-man's-land without the means to defend himself.

His courage and his unwillingness to give up until all the wounded had been rescued, often long after his battalion had been relieved, began to earn recognition when he was mentioned in dispatches and awarded the Croix de Guerre by the French Army.

In February 1917 he was awarded the Military Medal (MM), a level 3 gallantry award, for rescuing a wounded officer from no-man's-land.

He was awarded a bar to his MM for his conduct behind the front line in June 1917, when he removed stocks of hand grenades from a store which had been set alight by mortar fire, as well as rescuing men trapped in a collapsed tunnel.

He was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM), a level 2 gallantry award, for his actions over a period of days in July 1917. He saved many lives at great personal risk by evacuating wounded from the front line under shell fire. He continued to search for wounded throughout the night under shell and machine gun fire.

He was awarded a bar to his DCM for his conduct in late September 1918 when he treated and carried many wounded men under heavy artillery fire. He continued his work through the following day without rest or sleep, indifferent to shell and machine-gun fire, and refused to stop until he was positive that his sector was clear of wounded.

A week later his actions earned him the Victoria Cross, the highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

During the allies' advance in the last stages of the war, Coltman tended to the wounded without a break for 48 hours. When he heard that more wounded men had been left behind during a retirement, he went forward alone in the face of fierce enfilade fire, found the casualties, treated them, and on three successive occasions carried his comrades on his back to safety, saving their lives.

Coltman never sought adulation for his courage. After receiving his Victoria Cross from King George V at Buckingham Palace in May 1919, he went straight home to avoid a civic reception in his honour in his home town of Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire.

On demobilization, he quietly took a job as a groundskeeper with the Burton-on-Trent Parks Department, from which he retired in 1963. During WW2, he commanded the Burton-on-Trent Army Cadet Force in the rank of Captain.

William Harold Coltman VC, DCM & Bar, MM & Bar, died in Burton-on-Trent in 1974 at the age of 82. He once expressed the hope that future generations would know nothing of war, beyond what they read in books, and that there would come a time when no Victoria Cross could be won

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:43 PM

I was sitting in the A and E of our local hospital. Looked around- there were. About 20 people of all sorts sitting or standing. Two were wearing poppies. The rest of us weren't been disrespectful, we just weren't wearing poppies, in the same way as most people.

The hype about it being some kind of dereliction of duty not to do so is absurd and sometimes intimidating, especially when it comes to TV. And I'm sure for every person who gets bullied into putting one on, there are many who don't do so because they dislike that kind of bullying.

I see today they had some kind of big Albert Hall event, with the Queen in attendance and a.range of performers, including Rod Stewart. A kind of Royal Variety Show with poppies...

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 04:12 PM

In any case, all this "remembrance" manages to forget that the vast majority of war casualties, in most wars in the gunpowder age and afterwards, were civilians. Any real remembrance would include remembering that Britain refused refugee status to Jews (and others) fleeing from the Nazis, and specifically apply that memory to modern conditions. Yes, we allowed the Kindertransporten. But we denied refuge to their parents and grandparents.

Proper Little Madams (remember them?) sang a song about it almost 40 years ago:

Lest we forget the little children burned alive by napalm's fire,
Lest we forget the dead civilians hanging tangled in the wire,
And the faces of the women raped and shattered to the core-
It's not only men in uniform that pay the price of war,
Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:25 PM

Kevin, the whole bloody thing makes me feel horrible once every year. I think we treat wounded service men and women terribly. I'm not a pacifist and I'm proud of the blokes and women who sign up. A generation ago it seemed like a great career in which you'd learn fantastic skills. It's still like that, but nowadays you're almost certainly going to be sent to the front line in some bloody useless damaging conflict. But the young people who sign up are not particularly ideological. They see defending our country as a very virtuous way of doing good as well as helping themselves, and that's as fine as it gets. But every year the militarisation of the poppy and the glorification of war goes on apace. All the parades are militarised, replete with marching bands and royals wearing acres of medals that they have simply not earned. It's sickening. I have nothing against the genuine old boys and the wounded proudly parading with their medals. The best part of the programme this morning was the interview with the mother and sister of the fine young bloke who was shot to death in Afghanistan five years ago. For me, beside that, all the silly pomp melted away.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:50 PM

Cue music, and segue to This

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:19 PM

Cheers, Greg. I've also just sent that link to my sister who is on her way home from an Unthanks gig. That song is a bullshit-free zone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:55 PM

Two words sums up the Twentieth Century - machine gun

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:09 PM

What can I say, olliamh? I seriously considered filing as a Conscientious Objector, but at that time in the U.S., C.O. status required total pacifism. At the time, I could not honestly say that I would be a total pacifist if my country were attacked, and I could not bring myself to oppose what I still believe to be true about Western participation in World War II.

But in good conscience, I could not bring myself to participate in the Vietnam War. So, I enlisted for a job I could agree with, for a 4-year commitment instead of 2 (and then was released after 3 years). After training, I went to Berlin and studied the Communist government of East Germany for two years. One goal I set for myself was to find out why it was we were supposed to hate communists. I found out the East German Communists were just plain folks, although they tended to be a bit bureaucratic.

In the meantime, I have become more stubbornly a pacifist - but it doesn't cost me as much now, since they can't conscript me or imprison me for opposing warfare. So, olliamh, what price did you pay to resist the (admittedly) immoral draft for Vietnam? I paid with four years of my life instead of accepting the 2-year draft. What did you do?

Gee, am I required to state that I have never supported child rapists or Nazis? It seems that to deny an accusation like that, is to give credence to it. I wonder where olliamh gets those accusations from.

I'd like to believe that today's society has a more realistic view of the horrors of war, and that is no longer considered unpatriotic to describe war as horrific. But I'm not so sure. It was not so long ago that the U.S. Department of Defense prohibited the press from taking photographs of the caskets of soldiers returning from the Middle East to Dover, Delaware - that was during the George W. Bush administration, when it was important to the Administration to convince American voters that we were winning the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:37 PM

I really don't know why you dignified that horrible post with a response, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:58 PM

Well, Steve, it gave me an opportunity to explain the process I went through to deal with the challenge of conscription. It was a difficult decision, and there were no answers that were completely right. I don't blame anybody for whatever decision they made about the draft at that time. A few of my German language school classmates were reservists. They finished their training and went home, since reservists were never called to active duty at the time. But they did their time, and I can't blame them.
Nowadays, reservists aren't safe any more. In the last 15 years, very few U.S. military reservists have been able to avoid being sent to war.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 03:25 AM

"I found out the East German Communists were just plain folks"
My experience exactly, having spent some time hitching over Central and Eastern Europe in the sixties, including half a dozen Communist countries - a friendly, welcoming people, happy to talk of their lives and interested in ours.
One of the most moving experiences was when two of is hitched into Czechoslovakia in 1968 on the morning the Russians re-opened the border and spent two weeks in Prague with a bunch of students, mainly arguing with Russian soldiers as to why their government had invaded - very few "enemies" in those discussions.
People are people and politicians are..... well.... what they are!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:25 AM

Paul,
Association of Jewish Refugees.
"Most Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria found it very difficult to enter
Britain. However, by September 1939 about 70,000 Jews had been granted refuge
in this country. The main area of settlement was North-West London.
Among those who obtained entry visas were many women who came as domestic
servants. Almost 10,000 Jewish children were admitted without visas on
Kindertransports. Several thousand men arrived on transit visas, which allowed
them to re-emigrate to other countries.
The Jewish community in Britain responded actively to the desperate plight of
Jews in the Third Reich. The Central British Fund for German Jewry was set up to
raise funds. The CBF guaranteed the government that it would bear all costs of
maintaining the Jewish refugees. The Jewish Refugees Committee and other
Anglo-Jewish organisations found homes for the children and accommodation and
jobs for the adults.
In February 1939 these organisations and their Christian and charitable
counterparts were housed in Bloomsbury House, London, a lifeline for many a
desperate refugee. Initially, many refugees were destitute and faced a desperate
struggle to maintain themselves and their dependents, while also coping with the
emotional and psychological aftermath of enforced emigration."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:45 AM

Greg,
Professor, is it absolutely NECESSARY for you to continually display your ignorance and uncomprehension?

Same old Greg bile.
Same old inability to identify a single actual fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:34 AM

"Association of Jewish Refugees."
None of which in any way negates the fact that Hitler was being appeased right up to the start of the war - taking in refugees is a little like leaving the stable door wide open while the horses are still bolting and then cleaning up some of the mess.
The British establishment was riddled with Antisemitism and pro Nazism even while the war was being fought and businessmen, politicians and the nobility were preparing an interim Government for the day "Herr Hitler won".
Even the former King was in line to return to the throne
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:57 AM

Jim, Britain declared war on Germany when they refused to withdraw from Poland.
Happy with that?
Weak as a result of disarmament, we were in no position to stand alone against them.
It was a remarkable though costly achievement that we did.

Britain could have done more for Jewish refugees, but no country did better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

"Happy with that?"
Britain went to war when they had no other alternative - anything they might have done to oppose the rise of fascism in Europe beforehand, they didn't do and denigrated and criminalised those who dis as "premature ant-fascists"
Not happy with that at all
Enough of this dialogue - we know where you stand on Britain's appeasement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:13 AM

Britain went to war when they had no other alternative

There was an alternative.
More appeasement instead of an ultimatum and a declaration of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 09:42 AM

Keith, Yes, we allowed the Kindertransporten. But we denied refuge to their parents and grandparents.
is what I wrote.

Most Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria found it very difficult to enter Britain. is what the Association of Jewish Refugees wrote.


And the 70000 admitted is similar to the stingy 125000 our current goverment has offered to admit (over several years) from those hundreds of thousands or millions fleeing countries which we are either currently fighting in, or the government is discussing fighting in. So much for remembrance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:03 AM

Another thread poised for ruination by incessant Kiethsturbation.

Can we please ignore The Professor, folks, and get on with the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:08 AM

"The hype about it being some kind of dereliction of duty not to do so is absurd and sometimes intimidating"

What "hype"? Not once have I felt that I HAD to wear a poppy because of any peer-pressure to do so - whether you wear one or not is entirely voluntary, entirely up to the individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:17 AM

Paul, I accept we could have done more, but did any country do more for Jewish refugees than Britain did?

Also, had Britain not stood up to Hitler, at terrible cost, how much worse it would have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

I have yet to see anyone wearing a poppy this year, apart from on TV.
Perhaps the hype is losing its effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:15 PM

Professor, tell your story walking, eh? If you want to discuss Jewish refugees, mushroom hunting, mosquito control & etc start your own goddamn thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 11:47 PM

Greg, I have not raised any of those issues.
Paul Burke raised the issue of Jewish refugees, so your criticism is clearly directed at him.

Black belt caterpillar wrestler - do not worry. Poppy sales increase year on year, as does attendance at remembrance events.
The poppy factory is having to increase capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:53 AM

Stalin had to increase tractor production in The Ukrain too.

Similar story.

Similar reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 07:56 AM

"The poppy factory is having to increase capacity."
Perhaps because they are not £25 pounds each this year as were the ceramic ones last year.
Only one third of the profits from the poppies went to charity - the rest (suggested to have amounted to £10m) went to 'expenses' - undisclosed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:02 AM

Was there ever any truth in the rumour I heard as a child that the Haig family benefited financially from the Poppy Fund.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:06 AM

Or perhaps Black belt caterpillar wrestler - 09 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM - there's NO "hype" at all.

In the days when people wore jackets there were things called lapels with button holes - no such things on T-shirts and hoodies - makes wearing the poppies as currently sold a bit difficult.

Could be something to do with your neighbourhood or part of the country, plenty of poppy wearers in evidence from what I have observed

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:18 AM

No, Raggy; that was a foul canard. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

"After retiring from the service, Haig devoted the rest of his life to the welfare of ex-servicemen, making many speeches (which did not come easily to him) and answering all letters in his own hand.[232] Haig pushed for the amalgamation of organisations, quashing a suggestion of a separate organisation for officers, into The Royal British Legion which was founded in June 1921. He visited South Africa in 1921, Newfoundland in 1924, and Canada in 1925 (visits to Australia and New Zealand were being planned when he died) to promote ex-servicemen's interests. He was instrumental in setting up the Haig Fund for the financial assistance of ex-servicemen and the Haig Homes charity to ensure they were properly housed; both continue to provide help many years after they were created."

The source of the above information is "Douglas Haig, 1861-1928" by Gerard J. de Groot, published in 1989.

Whatever his failings as a commander in the field, it is clear from plenty of evidence that his post-war life was dedicated to helping veterans.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:31 AM

Sadly Charmion your post does not address the crux of the issue other than stating the rumour was a foul canard.

I have no doubt Haig did many things ex servicemen and for the Royal British Legion but that does not say anything about how the monies from the Poppy Appeal (or Haig Fund as it was first named) were distributed or whether he and his family benefitted financially from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:45 AM

I think charities and those who devoted their services to them back then did so for no reward whatsoever - could be that Raggytash is thinking of how things are done today where big charities cream of about 80% to 90% of the take to pay their "bosses" six figure salaries and to pay for jetting around "fund raising".

Not a single penny of the sums raised went to Haig or to any member of his family - look into the rules related to setting up charities and the running of charitable trusts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM

I am going back to rumours I heard over 50 years ago.

I can't recall my father (Royal Navy 1943-46) ever wearing a poppy though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 09:24 AM

GUEST,Raggytash (Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:02 AM)

As a child who was it spreading the rumour? Now 50 years on do you look back and reflect if they were knowledgeable? (leans to weighing up on whether they were credible or not) What did they do? What was their "inside" track to know the workings of the Haig Fund, the Haig Charitable Housing Trust and the Royal British Legion?

All the above I would have thought obvious questions to reflect on before throwing a scurrilous rumour out again for discussion. Another obvious move if the prospect bothers you would have been to write to the Haig Fund/RBL and ask them - kite flying one of your hobbies is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 09:42 AM

I had meant to post this in response to 06 Nov 15 - 09:04 PM, but was distracted:

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.