Whitby Folk Week 2018

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 10:15 AM

"WFW shrinks slowly year on year."

Partly this is competition from an expanded Towersey and Shrewsbury. The festival market in August may well be past saturation point. However the festival's marketing needs a serious overhaul. As much as most of us may like the "no top of the bill" approach it isn't bringing in new faces and given its current demographic profile it may not have more than a dozen years left if it can't seriously refresh its audience.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 12:00 PM

As much as most of us may like the "no top of the bill" approach it isn't bringing in new faces and given its current demographic profile it may not have more than a dozen years left if it can't seriously refresh its audience."
provide evidence of this statement

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 01:39 PM

Not used your eyes for the last 20 years?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 01:58 PM

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 01:39 PM

Not used your eyes for the last 20 years?"
yes i have and furthermore i have seen two festivals go to the wall pickering asnd beverley, two festivals that indulged in this foolish booking policy of top of the bill which was partly responsible for their demise.
once you start running a festival and spending vast amounts of money and gambling on top of the bill bringing in vast munbers and it fails your festival is doomed, bad business practice, getting into debt and relying on stars to clear your debt, next thing is ...festival season ticket holders do not get refunded.
yes anonymous guest i use my eyes alright and what you suggest is bad business practice and results in eventaul loss of confidence on the part of customers buying festival tickets.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 02:06 PM

WFW shrinks slowly year on year, says Jack Campin. Yet it put on a programme of 616 events this year, and my Season Ticket was No. 1163.

And it's clearly ridiculous to compare the fringe events at Whitby to the Edinburgh Fringe. The Edinburgh Fringe is organised! It is run by the Fringe Society, a charity supported by sponsors and partners, Angels, Patrons, Friends and supporters.

The Edinburgh International Festival does not depend upon the Fringe. It is organised by the Edinburgh International Festival Society, a charity funded by Members, Trusts and Foundations to present a programme of dance, opera, music and theatre, as well as a programme of community engagement, creative learning and professional development throughout the year.

And I can understand that a gathering of folkies in Whitby after Christmas is independent of Folk Week. But surely a gathering of folkies during Folk Week is more than a coincidence.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: JHW
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:14 PM

I've seen many more Edinburgh Fringe shows than EIF over many years and I'd say the Fringe overtaking the substantive Festival is a good point.
Whatever the funding, Fringe shows are rarely cheap or free (though Fringe companies may still struggle to break even). It is the patronage of Fringe shows by Festival Goers that has brought the success.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 05:36 PM

I agree with Dick Miles, but for a different reason than the financial ones he gives - "top of the bill" can't work at Whitby because they don't have any really big venues. The events they already programme can get a full house in the biggest venue they've got. Maybe this won't continue indefinitely, but it doesn't make sense to draft in Lady Gaga just yet.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:12 PM

Comparisons with the two Edinburgh festivals are ridiculous. They are on a vastly bigger scale than Whitby!

The Edinburgh Festival Fringe is the world's biggest arts festival, with 53,232 performances of 3,398 shows in 300 venues in 2017. In 2018, it reported another record tickets haul, with more than 2.8m, free and paid-for, being issued.

How many shows did the Whitby fringe put on? How many tickets did it sell?

Meanwhile, the 2018 Edinburgh International Festival came to an end after 2,800 artists from 60 nations performed in 85 productions across 180 performances. It reported ticket sales of £3.8m with 46,095 tickets to the value of £569,750 issued free of charge or at discounted rates.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:34 PM

Regarding Edinburgh, Jack Campin says; It's more likely that people will buy "official" festival tickets as an add-on to their Fringe spending than the other way round.

On the other hand, JHW says; It is the patronage of Fringe shows by Festival Goers that has brought the success.

Which way round is it then?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:41 AM

I don't know what JHW meant by that, but the days when the Fringe needed the official Festival in any way are decades in the past.

The point of the comparison with Edinburgh: for local businesses, a fringe sells your product (like beer or bed space) on top of the official festival. In Edinburgh the fringe is vastly more important than the official Festival for the tourist industry: in Whitby it's very small, but since official WFW isn't interested in diversifying what it does, there is a lot of room for expansion.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 02:34 AM

Whoa long live Wff doing what it does best traditional and similar folk folk music no room for expansion away from that!

The pubs and eateries and specially fish shops make a hole in the cash budget

Ray

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 02:42 AM

As you say, the events WFW already programme can get a full house in the biggest venue they've got.

And have you tried finding accommodation in Whitby during Folk Week? It's full, even when Folk Week doesn't coincide with the Regatta. Though new accommodation is being built in Whitby, there is increased residential demand too, from the off-shore energy and potash mining industries.

Whitby Folk Week offers a unique opportunity to participate. I'd start worrying when people stop flocking to the morning programme of workshops.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 03:05 AM

Dick, serious question for you.

When was the last time you visited Whitby Folk Week.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:25 AM

Actually Dick, the more pertinent information would be how many times have you attended Whitby Folk Week in the past 10, 15 and 20 years.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:35 AM

Pertinent or impertinent?

Don't be drawn, Dick.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:49 AM

Au contraire Henry, Dick has suggested that he has knowledge of the festival over the past 20 years. I merely wish to know if this is first hand knowledge based on regular, if not constant, attendance.

I have not missed a festival for the last 29 years, so I wonder if perhaps I am better placed to offer an opinion on the vitality/health or otherwise of the festival.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM

I think Dick's comments are about the broader principles of putting on festivals rather than being confined to Whitby Folk Week. And he does, of course, have experience of promoting festivals.

From the vast choice of dancing, playing and singing events offered by WFW, which are the ones that you choose to attend? And what opinion on the vitality/health or otherwise of the festival have you formed?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:26 AM

Accommodation at Whitby this year was not full. Last minute vacancies for the first time I can remember.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

I have attended over the years workshops, concerts, dances, tune sessions, singing sessions and fringe events. I have admired Malcolm Storeys running of the festival and am on record here saying the same.

My question to Dick was to illicit what knowledge he has of Whitby Folk Festival in particular that allows him to remark on the various merits, or otherwise, of the way it is going and the way it has changed over the past 20 years.

That is not to say he will not have a valid opinion, but that it should hopefully be based on a degree of knowledge of the festival.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:28 AM

By the way Henry it would help if you were a member so I could PM you .

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

Whoa long live Wff doing what it does best traditional and similar folk folk music no room for expansion away from that"
HEAR hEAR,
My opinions are baased on the MANY friends and performers who have been either booked every year or have attended regulasly,AND WHO I HAVE TALKED TO REGULARLY.
I play regularly in that area at festivals and clubs,saltburn, redcar darlington, whiby sea fest, botton, stockton club, wilsons club, naturally the topic of whiby and other festivals crop up in conversation, i think that makes my opinion as valid as yours, raggytash
I first attended whitby folk festival in 1976 and have been booked many times in the past
i often get booked in teeside and the north east, and and get reliable information about the general north east folk scene including whtTby folk festival.
LONG MAY WHIBY CONTINUE IN ITS PRESENT FORM AND WELL DONE THE ORGANISERS.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

So basically Dick you are saying you have had no first hand knowledge of the festival for some years.

In Jack's defence although he is a relative new-comer to the festival he has attended it recently and is possibly better placed to give a valid appraisal of it today.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 08:22 AM

no, i am saying i have a lot of knowledgs of the festival from people who have played and attended there, these people played there and attended the festival over the last five years, some of them this year and last year and are very respected performers whose opinion i value more than some of the hurlers in the ditch who have posted to this thread.
What pisses me off are people who criticise yet have never run a festival themselves,people who suggest more top of the bill expensive supposedly well promoted stars, yet as far as i am aware the people who suggest this, have never had to find the budget, or risk having to find the deficit out of their own pocket,
we have seen two examples[in the last ten years] in yorkshire of festivals going broke and festival ticket holders not refunded, pickering and beverley , i do not want to see anyone else swindled out of their money , it is unfair and will result in lack of confidence of buying festival tickets, and will eventually be very bad for the uk folk revival

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 09:14 AM

Well said, Dick!

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:18 PM

"Accommodation at Whitby this year was not full. Last minute vacancies for the first time I can remember."

Strange. I crossed and re-crossed Whitby several times a day, and I can honestly say that I didn't see a vacancy sign. And when I inquired about booking for next year, I found that my flat had already been booked.

Landlords and landladies are usually confident that they can fill any last-minute cancellations for Folk Week. Of course, the vacancies you found may not have any connection with Whitby Folk Week. And they are certainly not enough to establish that WFW is declining year by year.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:44 PM

I have been going for 7 or 8 years now, and I know what I'm seeing. People who saw me back then will remember I used to carry my instruments in a folding fisherman's stool so I could guarantee getting a seat in workshops and sessions. Haven't needed to do that for about 3 years. Meanwhile the participants (at least for the official WFW events) get steadily older.

What I am suggesting is that a developing fringe would be of benefit both to Whitby's tourist economy and to official WFW, and it might help to cut out the negativity. There doesn't need to be any conflict at all.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM

It's true that we are all getting steadily older, Jack. Every year, some festival-goers grow too old for the children's activities and have to move on. Fortunately, there are youth activities to occupy them.

You're assuming that there is enough accommodation in Whitby for all the new participants that the expanded fringe will attract, and enough venues to put on all the new events. I'd say that finding either will be difficult, especially when Folk Week coincides with the Regatta. And any economic benefit to Whitby will be marginal.

I'm puzzled when you say that the morning workshops and activities don't contribute extra custom to the venues. I attend several where people get a drink and something to eat in the morning and stay for lunch afterwards.

Many participants in existing sessions and singarounds loudly declare themselves independent of Folk Week. How many of the new participants will be willing to queue up for the chance of a seat at an evening concert at the Spa Theatre or the Metropole?

I can't see how an expanded fringe will bring any significant benefit to the Folk Week. There is, however, the prospect of competition for accommodation and venues. So why not hold the fringe another week when Whitby is not so crowded? That would be better for everybody.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 03:33 PM

There are lots of other smaller festivals attracted to the town at other times of the year, some of them folk festivals. Regatta aside which is run by locals, WFF was here first and started by the region's EFDSS reps. I have lots of family commitments now during that week . There are always about 20 of us attending fringe events, ranging in age from 1 to 85. We always pay to attend the Spa Ceilidh on the last night.
If that is anything to go by the average age of performers and punters is looking very healthy. I had a dance or two to the music of 4-2-2, all youngsters, wonderful music. The new venue for musician sessions was going well when I sat in on Friday afternoon, Jim and Mu Wilkinson's grandbains running a pop-up bar on Skinner Street. Couldn't get a seat in the Ship on Thursday night's session.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Curious Guest
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:32 PM

Henry - when did you buy your festival ticket?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:43 PM

Is this mere curiosity, market research or a Folk Police investigation?

If I remember correctly, we picked up our weekend wristbands late on Saturday afternoon from the appropriate desk at the Spa Pavilion Hall. We then went for a Fish and Chip Special at Fusco's. The next time we went, I ordered a small one.

The first event we attended was the evening concert at the Spa Theatre. Headliners were John Tams and Barry Coope, who I would consider to be 'big names'. The theatre was almost full downstairs, so we sat upstairs, on a very warm balcony.

I apologise for my performance in the showcase for the tin whistle class and promise to practise more next year. Am I free to go now?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Curious Guest
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 07:17 PM

I am now even more curious!

You say you picked up weekend wristbands on the Saturday.

In a previous post you stated you had a Season Ticket.

So which did you have? and when did you purchase them?

Did you in fact purchase them on the Saturday? - If not - when?

And this is mere curiosity.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:39 AM

econmic uncertainty and recession will affect most festivals [this includes brexit , so the possobilty of less people at festivals this year and next year is not unexpected, to spend more money and increase budget of festival is imo not sensible

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:57 AM

Curious George - you obviously work for Mass Observation. We should meet for a drink next year. In fact, we had season tickets for the whole week.

We booked online quite late, too late for any early discounts, probably in mid July. We picked up our wristbands - mine was 1163 - from the appropriate desk in the Spa Pavilion Hall.

We had booked our accommodation earlier. This year we even had a flat with a view, and could watch the sun coming up from the front window. We left the flat at 9.30 every morning - sometimes with our landlady carrying her fiddle case - and walked back past the floral clock after midnight. Highlight of the week? Meeting Doc Rowe in the vegetable aisle in the Co-op.

My only complaint is that the programme makes very little allowance for eating and sleeping. Did we gain or lose weight during the week? I'm not sure, but I hope the hill walking held the fish and chips in equilibrium.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 10:56 AM

You're assuming that there is enough accommodation in Whitby for all the new participants that the expanded fringe will attract, and enough venues to put on all the new events. I'd say that finding either will be difficult, especially when Folk Week coincides with the Regatta. And any economic benefit to Whitby will be marginal.
I'm not suggesting there will be much if any expansion. WFW will contract and the fringe will expand, both rather slowly. Hopefully a balance will be maintained.

The new venue for musician sessions was going well when I sat in on Friday afternoon, Jim and Mu Wilkinson's grandbains running a pop-up bar on Skinner Street. Couldn't get a seat in the Ship on Thursday night's session.
Both of those are part of the fringe which I've been saying should be welcomed. WFW could have made the Ship session official at least ten years ago, they obviously don't want to be associated with it; the Ship sessioneers probably don't care. The Eurosessions did want to be part of WFW but were turned down. By now, we've got used to doing it our way, which works very well, and there's no point in forming any closer link.

I'm puzzled when you say that the morning workshops and activities don't contribute extra custom to the venues.
The most extreme example I can recall was a workshop on Northumbrian music a year or two ago by Joey Oliver, 10am at the Fleece. Queues outside, presumably because the licencing laws prevented the Fleece from letting anybody in earlier. Then a frantic scramble to get seats, after which nearly everybody was so wedged in that getting to the bar was out of the question. WFW could have seen that coming.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 12:19 PM

In other words, Jack, you expect things to carry on pretty much as they are. That will probably be good enough for most of us.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 12:56 PM

>>>>they obviously don't want to be associated with it<<<< Can't speak for the last few years as I haven't had a programme but prior to that the programme always gave a list of venues that would welcome fringe activities. The Fringe is the Fringe. It's not Edinburgh. It doesn't need to be approved or sanctioned or advertised by the programmed festival.

>>>>>Ship sessioneers probably don't care<<<< Sorry but quite wrong. Tom Napper officially part of the festival for many years on and off, Martin Bull, a festival organiser until recently, Chris Sherburn, booked guest on many occasions, and probably others including myself in a multitude of different guises ever since the second festival in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Roughyead
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:02 PM

We had a great time at Whitby old week this year.I just want to make two comments and would be interested in what people think.
First ,the price of beer in Whitby is scandalous apart from Wetherspoons where availability and quality are unreliable (with no music)the Star which was fine and the spa which was ok.
Second ,we went to the political songs sing around at the Star on Wednesday afternoon.There were some great songs old and new.However I thought it was supposed to be a sing around but the organisers mostly chose people they knew to sing and only adopted the "singaround principle"for ,I guess 40% of the time.There were obviously people who had arrived early hoping to sing and never got the chance ,very disappointing.Perhaps a fairer more democratic approach to leading it in future?

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM

Hi Roughyead (Not Bob is it?)
I wasn't present at this 'singaround' but this type of singaround has been running now for at least 30 years at festivals, whereby booked guests run the singaround and are expected to put in a performance for an unspecified spot or spots and if any well-known guests turn up they are also given a 'spot'. As I say I wasn't there so I can only make general comments. I'm not trying to justify what happened, only trying to explain how it may have come about. If I'm running a singaround I make sure everybody gets a fair crack, and before the 'star turn' does a spot I would make sure everyone in the room had had the chance to sing one song.

It's unlikely the organisers will be on Mudcat so I suggest you let them know what happened and ask them to specify the type of event more clearly in the programme. It should perhaps be billed as 'A Couple of hours with booked guest, and some floor spots' rather than as a 'singaround'.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 03:01 PM

One of the venues complained about the low volume of drink sales during one of the 10 am workshops. When I gave my melodeon workshop at the Station Inn I encouraged people to order coffee at least, as did Pete Coe. Seemed only fair.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 03:09 PM

To be fair morning events have never been big boozy affairs. The hard drinkers are still in bed and only come out for a hair of the dog at lunchtime. Those who could drink all day have either had a scare and given up or gone to that great big booze-up in the sky.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:51 AM

if as some people suggest there has been a small drop in attendance there could be a couple of other contributory reasons
1. the hills in whitby which may put elderly people off
2. their parking restrictions and charges. ihave seen remarks about these things on other threads copncerning festivals

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM

Was good to see adoption of Fisherman's Football social club as a great venue (it's behind the Tattoo shop) ~ plenty of room and well attended concert in the afternoon

It is very difficult for the likes of Whitby folk week to find rooms and pubs not already in use btw ~ and small venues are just not expandable ~ any singarounds I run are done democratically ~ some stars are infamous for favouritism ~ it has always happened!

Ray

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 AM

Let's not get carried away. We haven't established that there was any drop off in attendance.

Jack Campin, with his rather jaundiced view of Whitby Folk Week, considers,"WFW shrinks slowly year on year." Though he later admitted, "The one and only event in the programme that I went to was Doc Rowe on Monday (and short visits to two lunchtime sessions)."

There is very little that WFW can do to overcome the problems of relief and parking in Whitby. Neither is new! People who find the hills a challenge tend to plan their days accordingly. The Metropole, the Rifle Range, West Cliff Primary School, the Leisure Centre and the Conservative Club form a cluster of venues at the same altitude.

Extra parking spaces have been provided by the Park & Ride. People staying for the week can generally find parking places on the street. Day visitors can use the enormous car park at the Leisure Centre, which charges 7GBP for 6 hours and 9GBP for 24 hours. While this may seem a lot to folkies, it is what other day visitors to Whitby pay!

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM

I do 't think it's "jaundiced" to point out a simple demographic fact which obvious if you compare the event listings for a few years running. The pattern is of slow contraction. It's actually being managed quite well: WFW are staying within their financial constraints even if they aren't going public about what their constraints are. Few private businesses manage such careful projections. (This is also the way Dick Miles appears to see the situation, and if so I agree with him).

And maybe you'd have just left your wife alone in a top floor bedroom to starve immobile for a week - I wouldn't.   You (and the slimebag who writes in the same style as "GUEST, Malcolm Storey" when it wants to be even more snide and egomaniacal) are totally fucking contemptible when you write as if I had much choice in what I was doing that week. Maybe you're just a pair of self-centred macho thugs and have no idea that anybody else might have different priorities. Go fuck yourselves.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:04 AM

I'm happy to be in Malcolm Storey's company.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:17 AM

Steady up, Jack!
The festival will only be responsible for those events, wherever they take place, that can be stewarded, programmed and they can shake a doanations box or charge an entrance fee. The Fringe events are organised by others on an ad-hoc arrangement in conjunction with the landlords of the pubs. There's plenty of room for both. Where it is a pub or club that is involved it is entirely up to the landlords to what extent they want to be involved. If they are not willing to allow a ticketed/stewarded event, but will allow a fringe event, that is entirely their prerogative and not that of the festival organisers. I know many of the festival organisers personally from the 60s up to the present day. None of them live in Whitby, and never have to the best of my knowledge, but they give up their free time once one year's festival is finished to go round all the venues asking if they are available for next year and check for problems from previous years. I don't always agree with what they do but I certainly have the utmost respect for what they do and have done.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:13 PM

in fact if it wasnt for malc0lm storey whitby might have folded back in 1980, malcolm ran a very good festival for many years ,jack

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Mackem
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:50 AM

Malcolm is a Yorkshireman, he calls a Spade a Spade.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:18 AM

Except when its a shovel of course!

And - yes - I do know the difference.

And - yes - I have problems with the hills - anno domini tha knows.

Subject: RE: Whitby Folk Week 2018
From: Nick
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:35 PM

One thing that puzzles me about Whitby and some other festivals.

Why do some people have a real anti to the fringe? What possible harm does it do them and what possible harm does it to the main festival itself?

There are examples on this thread.

But I have come across it at Beverley and Sidmouth - and it probably happens at most.

But I don't see how it possibly detracts or why people who don't go to the fringe but do go to the main festival get so excited that the fringe is travelling on the coat tails of the main event - but shouldn't be.

I do know that some of the visitors to the pubs don't drink as much as some of the pubs might like and that some publicans get annoyed at people popping in to listen rather than drink - but that is just manners and common decency rather than intrinsically fringey. And some of the fringe definitely drinks. And drinks a lot.