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England's National Musical-Instrument?
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM Thanks. I have more to draw from than just the shakespeare liberty quote. Came across it the other day when I was doing research for a book. Probably a foreign concept for Wav. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM because all proper tea is theft? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Will Fly Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM Oh Ruth! |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Joseph P Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM There is a lot to be learnt from the Anarchist school of thought, from 'property is theft' to deep ecology, thhere are many ideas to explore in such an infinitely complex area. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM But do Anarchists morris dance? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Joseph P Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM Badly. They cant agree on the moves and all want to do their own thing. Good jigs though. Mind you swapping a few veggies for beer at the pub sort of counts. Maybe? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Paul Burke Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM Morris was a Socialist, not an anarchist. And I though all property was the FT. I lost touch with this threat early on; has anyone mentioned that England's national instrument is obviously the anglophone? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Sailor Ron Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM IB, I challenge you, The Steamer tonight sing it! |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM Hey, let's leave WAVworld behind and start a new thread on anarchism. Much more fun... The changing of the lightbulb is the task of the lightbulb itself. Anyone remember top Welwyn Garden City based anarcho-popsters the Astronauts? At their best - songs like 'Typical English Day' - they did cracking, very English sounding folk-rock. And, just for The Beard, free jazz polymath Lol Coxhill guested on one of their albums. And don't get me started on anarcho-locomotive enthusiasts, Blyth Power... Building the new thread in the shell of the old... |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:11 PM When you talk on an anglophone, do you say different words on the push and the pull? And how do you know which? Diatonically confused, as ever . . . |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: The Sandman Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM when you talk on the dog and bone you are barking. when you talk on the anglo phone your parping. when you blow on the sousaphone your farting. and when you play on the concertina you must always play single line melody,and never play non traditional english harmony.[last line quote from WAV expert on english concertinas] |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM ...what the Dickens!...excuse me, but I'll read all this tomorrow; I'm off for the singing at Durham City Folk Club which, by the way IB (whatever you just had to say), has just moved to the Big Jug. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM Last I heard it was back in The Shakespeare on a Tuesday; that was back at the Folk Party mind, so they might be back at the The Big Jug by now... Still, there's the session at The Dun Cow if you get stuck. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM True, Woody. The folks at Empress Hall (Claude Langdon, if I remember correctly) should have explained this possibility to my sister so she could factor it into her decision to accept or not. I believe the skater who may have been hired in place of Pat was named Sonja (or Sonya) Kaye, but I'm not sure. Nor have I been able to find anything about her record as a skater, competitive or otherwise. The only possibility I've found is that there was a skater named Sonya Klopfer (changed to "Kaye" as a stage-name?) who won a national championship in 1951 and has a fairly substantial record competing in the World Championships. However—this was a United States national championship and in World's, she skated for the United States. Sonya Klopfer was an American. So. . . . #### Did I read WAV correctly? That he's advocating that when figure skaters chose the music to which they choreograph their programs, they should chose the folk music of their own countries? Most figure skaters select the music they skate to from the vast range of classical music. For obvious reasons, ballet music (Tchaikovsky, Adolphe Adam, Minkus, Ravel, Glière, etc.) tends to predominate. Sometimes opera overtures are used. Rossini overtures are particularly favored for their tendency to start moderato and build up speed. Very exciting for a skating program. One of my sister's programs, which was well-received by audiences and skating judges alike, was choreographed to an orchestral (no singing) medley of music from Verdi's opera, La Traviata. I can't wait to see some skater (English, of course) try to do a program to WAV singing "Cob a Coaling." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM Thinking about the last paragraph in my post just above, what can I say but CLICKY? See? HE agrees! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: s&r Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM cob a Caulkin... Stu |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM (IB - yes, there was a sign on The Big Jug saying Tuesday now...oh, well, some other time :-(> and, for what it's worth, I'm still going to catch up on these posts tomorrow.) |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Woody Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM I'll look forward to you answering my questions properly then |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:21 AM Don, there really is a requirement that one of the dances be to a folk song. The downside is that Katyusha gets REALLY old after the first 8 couples.... |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:06 AM Greg Stephens, of the Boat Band and other bands. Bloody fine bloke and all-round local English international traditionalist progressive. Thomas Hardy wrote about church bands, the ones that got fired when the organs came in because they were invariably still drunk on the Sunday morning from the previous Saturday night's dancing. If whole bands were employed to accompany the hymn-singing in church one can assume safely that some harmony would be involved, if only because all instruments do not play in the same register (the Watersons' harmony technique:"sing the tune until you can't. What you sing after that qualifies as a harmony"). e |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM Ah yes, I thought I'd answered WAV's odd question about what was "Greg" a pseudonym for, but I was clearly so gobsmacked that I didn't. I've no reason to suppose that "Greg Stephens" isn't his real name, he's certainly had it long enough. I echo Eliza's words that he is a jolly fine chap and his music is even better. Last time I saw him was in Musical Traditions with the Boat Band, an excellent venue which Ms Carthy and Saul Rose played only last week. An artist who gets a gig there is worth knowing about. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Will Fly Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:46 AM I knew Greg when he was doing a PhD at Lancaster University - back in the 60s - and we had several blues'n guitars sessions together. Eventually I started to dodge playing with him - and eventually he cornered me and asked why I was fobbing him off. I had to admit to him that his musical knowledge was so all-embracing and so expert that I didn't feel up to his skill. (I HAD only been playing about 3 or 4 years...). I'd do better now, I hope, but back then? - nah! Mind you, I did take the piss out of the first beard he was growing... Apologies, Greg, if you catch this. Oh - and he is indeed "Greg Stephens". |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM And Cobbler's Hornpipe is a great tune. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM Ruth - may I refer you to the "Pop Goes the Folk Singer" thread for a "body of evidence", and I agree with your later post, reposted below, but add that I've put "mostly" NOT "ONLY" on my website. "Yes, there is a strong tradition of solo, unaccompanied singing in England, but that doesn't mean that it was the ONLY tradition. Some of the living traditions we still have, for instance, would suggest otherwise. The Copper family sing harmonies, and their tradition goes back at least eight generations. Sheffield Carols, still sung each year in the village pubs, contain strong, spontaneous harmonies. And though I've never been to any shepherd's or hunt meets to hear any singing, I'd be interested to know whether people sing in harmony - I know that Will Noble and John Cocking, for instance, do." Woody - I repeat once again my questions... perhaps you'll please do me the courtesy of actually answering my questions properly, with some of the attention and level of detail you must have shown to acquire your degree. (1) - what you're saying is that in England we should only perform "good English music"? (AND ENJOY LISTENIG TO VISITORS PERFORM THEIRS) (2) - If the answer to (1) is yes, does that mean that you think we should take some kind of action to preserve the purity of the English music that exists - as alluded to in your perform your own rule? (3) - If the answer to both 1 & 2 is yes, what methods would you propose would be used to achieve and enforce this? (I HAVE ANSWERED 2 & 3 ABOVE) (4) - Given your documented attempts to live a more "authentic" English existence (pottage etc) do you think that there should be a wider effort to revive this English culture? (YES) Volgadon - traditionally congregations in England generally sing just the tune; while the organist (nowadays) will generally play all four lines on the score (and, yes, Eliza, other instruments have been involved in this); and, occasionally, trained boy (and nowadays girl) sopranos sing some bits above it all - descant lines, I think they are called. RVW - collected folk TUNES and ADDED these extra lines/harmonies HIMSELF. (Having said all that, I think just the tune sung and/or played well sounds great - with BOTH our hymns and our folk songs.) Oh, and we do try and sing hymns a bit more sweet/Sunday best voice. Volgadon again - "Here are some words by Jabotinsky which I rather like. They are equally aprropriate for Wav's grand scheme of a world-regulationism. For me, as for all lovers of freedom, an ant-heap or a colony of bees cannot serve as an example for humanity. A collectivist* regime, which subjugates the individual personality, is no better than a regime of feudalism or autocracy. The 'equality' and 'justice' of such a regime will be based on organized production, distribution and consumption - all to be coordinated by the government; and if somebody does not conform to this organization, the heavy hand of that government will come down on him, or he may be hanged from a tree - in the name of equality and justice. No: Bakunin was a thousand times right when he told Marx that if the workers succeed in establishing the new regime that Marx preached, it would be no less tyrannical than it's predecessor... All individuals are equal; and if, in the march towards prgress, some falter by the way, society must help raise them up... I am not an anarchist: I admit the need for state power. But the difference between me and you is that to me that power is in the nature of a supreme court, standing above parties, groups and personlaities, and not interefering in the economic, public and private life of the citizen's as long as nobody's freedom is infringed - while to you that power is the stick of the policemen, and that stick differs from other sticks in that it will be yielded by you... To you the end justifies the means, and so everything is permitted." Me, from the above link - "Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support." "the only reason people sang unaccompanied was because they were subjugated in ignorance and poverty, indentured in servile drudgery to a heartless aristocracy who no doubt thought it was all such jolly good traditional fun." (IB)...or, like me, they genuinely enjoyed a good voice singing an E. trad unaccompanied, as nearly everyone did at the Durham Folk Party singaround, where we last met. Joseph and Paul - "Business is glorified theft" (Steinbeck, Grapes of Wrath). Ironic that CB should be the one to remember our National Poetry Day. Did I read WAV correctly? That he's advocating that when figure skaters chose the music to which they choreograph their programs, they should chose the folk music of their own countries? "Most figure skaters select the music they skate to from the vast range of classical music. For obvious reasons, ballet music (Tchaikovsky, Adolphe Adam, Minkus, Ravel, Glière, etc.) tends to predominate. Sometimes opera overtures are used. Rossini overtures are particularly favored for their tendency to start moderato and build up speed. Very exciting for a skating program. One of my sister's programs, which was well-received by audiences and skating judges alike, was choreographed to an orchestral (no singing) medley of music from Verdi's opera, La Traviata. I can't wait to see some skater (English, of course) try to do a program to WAV singing "Cob a Coaling." (Don Firth)...if you don't believe my above post on this, Don, please check the ISU website (as Volgadon seems to have done). |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:08 AM God....(select one of your own choice) Is Wav still here? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Ruth Archer Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM "Volgadon - traditionally congregations in England generally sing just the tune" Which tradition is this? If you mean that this is the way congregations sing NOW, how is that more traditional than the older, West Gallery style of church singing which is full of harmonies? The fact that RVW only notated the tune does not mean that this is all he ever heard. I believe there is evidence that some of the tunes he collected were, in fact, originally sung with harmonies; because of his own bias, perhaps, he chose only to note the tune, and then, when orchestrating the music later, sometimes added harmonies of his own. There has been speculation (notably, I believe, by Karl Dallas) that it was often the bias of the collectors themselves - Sharp in particular possibly setting the precident - which caused the songs to be collected largely unaccompanied and without harmonies. Later collectors find a significant amount of musical accompaniment, and later recordings of singers in pubs (not revival singers) definitely contain spontaneous harmonisation on the choruses. You still haven't answered Woody's questions 2 and 3: HOW would you enforce your cultural apartheid? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM or, like me, they genuinely enjoyed a good voice singing an E. trad unaccompanied, as nearly everyone did at the Durham Folk Party singaround, where we last met. And a bloody good sing it was too but hardly in anyway traditional as it is preferential with respect a tradition thus perceived. This is a very recent phenomenon - and despite the general hoary demographic a lot of these singers are quite new even to the revival; they're still-game camper-van second-lifers from non-musical backgrounds and making a canny fist out of it too. But in no way shape or form should this be taken for anything else other than it is, and certainly not as a manifestation of Our Own Good Traditional Cultural Heritage. It's just a bunch of people having a drink and a sing; enjoying themselves through commonality and sharing, which I dare say is traditional, but no more so than karoake or line-dancing or any other community based recreation. The anthropologist would understand this - culture contextualised according to human function and need, as oppose to its random content or else some ghastly ersatz provenance however so contrived or justified. You have a taste for a good voice singing an E. trad unaccompanied - as indeed do I, but unlike you I do not think this is the proper or indeed the only way to do things, or even the traditional way. As far as I'm concerned, the only traditional way to sing a song is with the human voice; the rest is up to the singer. This is the way it is with Folk Music, or any other sort of music, it's about people doing what's right for them, and others, without having some fecking nerd* telling them what is and is not traditional according to some insane set of regulations. Folk Music isn't traditional; it's an academic construct circa 1903 that has over the last fifty years garnered an army of educated enthusiasts who thrive on the cut and thrust of a cultural pedantry such as you've barely begun to scratch the surface of. It's a rich a bewildering realm to be sure; in fact, it's a fucking ocean out there, fraught with dangers, replete with wonders, seductive with deadly beauty, rich with legend, hearsay and scientific** bafflement of the highest order. But you haven't even made it to the beach yet, WAV - let along the rock pools. In fact, you're still in the toilet block - looking in the pan, wondering where all the piss goes. * Nerds are traditional too, but they are as unaware of that tradition as a fish is unaware of the water through which it swims. ** In the current number of Radio Times, Stephen Fry defines sciences as humility in the face of facts, which I think is a good maxim to live by. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Phil Edwards Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM Give it up, IB. David knows better than all of us - he takes criticism and challenges from you, me, Ruth, Diane, Dick, Greg, Don and Eliza fecking Carthy, and he shrugs it off without a second thought. He's never going to acknowledge that he doesn't know what he's talking about, any more than he'll ever admit that his views are racist. He won't acknowledge it because he doesn't respect our arguments, and he doesn't respect our arguments because he knows that he already knows better than any of us. We should either buy into the myth of WAV and bow down to the wisdom he's accumulated in those four long years, or just ignore him and have a sensible conversation among ourselves, leaving him to rant away to anyone who will listen. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM Well before the introduction of the church organ, along with "Hymns Ancient and Modern" which homogenised the repertoire of congregations in Britain, church music on Sundays was played nationwide by the village bands, who played whatever instruments they had. Earlier church music than that we sing now was considerably more fun to sing and much of it sprung directly from the living tradition. No singing in a church voice, and no choirboys or girls to be seen in the villages. Sorry. That's a genuine historical gap in your knowledge. That's also some truly rocking religious songs to learn if you fancy being enriched at all. x e "f" c (thanks pip! best middle name i ever had!) |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM if you don't believe my above post on this, Don, please check the ISU website (as Volgadon seems to have done). No need, mum's an enthusiast and the house is small, so I get exposed to figure skating whether I like it or not. As I have pointed out, the downside is that it gets bogged down in musical cliches. Joseph and Paul - "Business is glorified theft" (Steinbeck, Grapes of Wrath). Wav, Wav, Wav. It is so easy to isolate a snappy cath phrase, ignore the original context and try to fit square pegs into round holes. Some business is glorified theft, other , just business. In any case, try living withouth it. Even the fools in the newly-formed Soviet Union realised that. Volgadon - traditionally congregations in England generally sing just the tune; while the organist (nowadays) will generally play all four lines on the score (and, yes, Eliza, other instruments have been involved in this); and, occasionally, trained boy (and nowadays girl) sopranos sing some bits above it all - descant lines, I think they are called. RVW - collected folk TUNES and ADDED these extra lines/harmonies HIMSELF. (Having said all that, I think just the tune sung and/or played well sounds great - with BOTH our hymns and our folk songs.) Occasionally? How about all of the time since hymns were introduced, until that tradition was deliberately replaced by one of organ playing. Oh, and we do try and sing hymns a bit more sweet/Sunday best voice. I don't. I try to sing sincerely, but it is the same voice I would sing anything else in. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM I was just thinking in respect to my rather clumsy maritime metaphor above there that I'm more than happy to poke around the rock-pools, seeing what the tide has brought in, but each time afresh with respect to the experience, but never losing sight of the ocean beyond. Singarounds as rock pools? Or else just kicking along the shore at low tide raking through the flotsam and jetsam, seeing what's what and pondering the possible source thereof, much the less the journey it's had in getting there - or yet the journey I've had myself in getting there, or by what process I might find something appealing, or moving, however so removed from its original context, like this piece of funereal flotsam we found at Knott End on Sunday. As for WAV, I think he's got to realise his life's work is only just beginning; that one can only think of oneself as being a traddy when one has forgotten more songs than one knows, and if one is still singing the same songs as one was a year ago, then maybe it's time one learnt some new ones. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM IB - you talk as if traditional English music is, and has always been, as free as American jazz...but, if true, we wouldn't have that body of songs/tunes that you just recommended I again dip into. And, accordingly, if you'll pardon the pun, surely the idea is to remember, NOT forget, them. Thus, for a while, I think I'll sit on the 50 or so song and hymn tunes that I've just about memorized (and worked out) the recorder and keyboard fingerings for. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM The body of songs only exists because it was collected as such; in its natural environment (i.e. before it was collected & defined as such) I'd say traditional English folk was just as free as jazz, American or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM So the International Skating Union has such a rule? Whose cockamamie idea was that and what is its purpose? What are they trying to accomplish by this? Volgadon, I don't doubt your word at all, but where is this rule? I went to the ISU web site, pulled up the rulebook (.pdf format), and did a key word search on "folk," and the word was not even used, anywhere in the ISU rulebook. There were many instances of the word "music," but they all had to do with matters of sound quality, media (CD, mp3, etc.), and the skater's coordination with and interpretation of the music. For the ice dancing competitions (couples, no spins, no jumps, pre-set steps dictated by the dance itself, not unlike the rules for ballroom dancing), the music is pre-selected, and it includes such things as the Viennese Waltz, the Argentine Tango, the Paso Doble, and so on. But this is not, strictly speaking, folk music. It specifies the type of dance, and the music must, of course, conform to the rhythm and style of that dance. The waltz as a formal dance came originally from Vienna and the tango is associated with Argentina, but the music that accompanies these dances (best known examples, Johann Strauss, Astor Piazzolla respectively) can hardly be regarded as "folk songs." And this music is selected by the committee or the judges, not by the skaters themselves. Nor does it apply to solo free-style programs, such as those my sister did. She knew all of the dances and could do them, with a partner of course, as they are intended to be done, but she was primarily a solo skater. Incidentally, there may be some sort of "nationalistic" movement on the part of the ISU because their actions within recent years have not exactly been met with universal acclaim: The International Skating Union has demonstrated in their judging of the pairs competition at the Salt Lake City Olympics that they cannot adhere to the ethical standards of Olympic Charter and should be expelled from the Olympic Movement.There have been complaints within recent years that many ISU judges have demonstrated blatant nationalistic bias in judging competitions. Several articles HERE. I turned up all kinds of interesting stuff. My sister, Pat, follows this much more closely and more knowledgeably than I do. She and her husband, John, are at their place at Flathead Lake right now, but when they return to Seattle, I'll ask Pat about this. Don Firth P. S. By the way, while googling, I ran across this: Pat in action, circa 1952. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Phil Edwards Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM As for WAV, I think he's got to realise his life's work is only just beginning I think he thinks his life's work is done - and he's done so little! According to my geekily maintained records, I've sung forty-something traditional songs in public, as well as seventy-odd written by other people and around 30 of my own. I've hardly scratched the surface. and if one is still singing the same songs as one was a year ago, then maybe it's time one learnt some new ones Amen to that. I can't imagine not wanting to keep learning new songs. And I do say 'new' - at the moment I've got a strong preference for songs that have marinaded in the oral tradition for a century or so, but every song I learn for the first time is new to me - and with any luck I can make them new for other people. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM We don't get the Americans on Eurosport, Don, but I'm quite sure that they had the same, fairly new, abovementioned rules as the last Worlds and Europeans - part of the ice dancing definitely did require the music to be folk and preferably, but not strictly, from the dancers' nation. the myspace of Tanith Belbin may be helpful on this, and of general interest to you and yours. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Woody Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:27 PM Woody - I repeat once again my questions... perhaps you'll please do me the courtesy of actually answering my questions properly, with some of the attention and level of detail you must have shown to acquire your degree. (1) - what you're saying is that in England we should only perform "good English music"? (AND ENJOY LISTENIG TO VISITORS PERFORM THEIRS) (2) - If the answer to (1) is yes, does that mean that you think we should take some kind of action to preserve the purity of the English music that exists - as alluded to in your perform your own rule? (3) - If the answer to both 1 & 2 is yes, what methods would you propose would be used to achieve and enforce this? (I HAVE ANSWERED 2 & 3 ABOVE) (4) - Given your documented attempts to live a more "authentic" English existence (pottage etc) do you think that there should be a wider effort to revive this English culture? (YES) WAV. In good faith I've taken the time to attempt to explore what you are trying to say & to give you a chance to expand on how you think the situation as you see it can be improved. You say you've got a degree, but the kind of answers you've given me would not be considered acceptable in Primary School. From the your reluctance to reply and the lack of detail when you do I can only assume what most people here already think is true - i.e. you don't really have anything of substance to say and the opinions you spout have no depth of thought behind them. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM I tried the link you posted just above, David, and perhaps I don't know where to look, but I saw nothing there about folk music at all. Can you "fine tune" what it is you're talking about? In their most recent competitive season, Tanith Belbin and her partner Ben Agosto (and note, they are ice dancers, not free skaters) they selected the following music: Compulsory Dance: Austrian WaltzI believe this was their selection, not specified in the rules. If I am wrong about this, then please indicate where this is stated in the International Skating Union, World Skating Federation, and/or United States Figure Skating Association rules. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM Okay, sports fans, I found the following in the ISU rules: The rhythm for the Original Dance [one of several different dances the competitors must show proficiency in--DF] is the "Folk / Country Dance".Two points: 1) This applies to ice dancing only. Couples. This form of competition is a translation of ballroom dancing competitions to ice skating. See such television programs as "Dancing with the Stars." Nowhere do I find that it says it applies to music selected for solo skater's programs. And 2) Nowhere do I find that the "folk/country dance" music section must be music from the competitors' country of origin. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM David, are you really going to ignore my last post? What you've said is historically inaccurate, and I was nice about it too. I keep thinking that you do want to learn, that that's why you're here. Please tell me it is. efc |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM : Well before the introduction of the church organ, along with "Hymns Ancient and Modern" : which homogenised the repertoire of congregations in Britain, church music on Sunday : was played nationwide by the village bands, who played whatever instruments they had. : Earlier church music than that we sing now was considerably more fun to sing and much of : it sprung directly from the living tradition. No singing in a church voice, and no choirboys : or girls to be seen in the villages There was that, but Calvinism predates it, and in its more extreme forms it didn't permit any music in church other than psalms sung to a single melodic line, with the psalm tunes taken from a very short list, none of them folky in any respect. People often think of it as a Scottish thing, but England had it first and it never went away. I'd guess somebody's mapped where and when church bands existed? if not somebody ought to. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: TheSnail Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM Jack Campin I'd guess somebody's mapped where and when church bands existed? if not somebody ought to. This book is a good read and has some lovely stories in it. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Surreysinger Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:12 PM Interestingly enough Lucy Broadwood conducted some correspondence with the Rev McDermott (see The Snail's link) in which she recorded that the vicar at her local church in Surrey in her childhood days (ie mid 1800's - around 1880) was a bit of a throwback to the 18th century and insisted on the congregation singing in unison ... no bands or harmony involved. The result was a fairly raucous shouting (I presume some musicality must have been involved, as she records that this singing was what gave her her love of modal tunes). At the same time she also stated that her parents (mother born in East Anglia in the early 1800's, and father - from Rusper area) had been used to church bands ... but these were recorded as being, again, raucous, and fairly poor in musical terms. Both versions of church music were effectively knocked on the head with the general introduction of the American organ in the late 1800's - leading presumably to the style of hymn singing we became more accustomed to in the 20th century .. ie tune lines which speaking personally seem to have been designed only for first sopranos (far too high) or real tenors, and rather more sedate than what had gone before. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM "American organ?" Not quibbling, just curious. Considering that the organ has been an integral part of the architecture of churches and cathedrals throughout continental Europe for centuries, I would find it most odd if I were to suddenly, in my advanced years, to learn that the organ was not a part of church services in the British Isles. Especially in the light of THIS. And was there not quite a large number of composers, English and otherwise living in England (Handel, composer of The Messiah, for example: German born but lived most of his life in England), who wrote reams and stacks of liturgical music? I can't believe that this music was never performed until recently. . . . What distinguishes an American organ from the organs that, say, Bach, Buxtehude, and others played and composed for? Indeed, what is an American organ? The Estey reed pump organ, often used in camp meetings on the American frontier? The Hammond electric, sometimes found in cocktail lounges and/or used by rock bands? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM American organs suck, harmoniums blow. (honest!) |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:06 AM The question remains: What is an "American organ?" I am an American and I've never heard of an "American organ." Don Firth P. S. At least not one of the musical variety. . . . |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:08 AM Oh, hell! As long as I'm here, why not? 700! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM American organs are a kind of small harmonium, but as Smokey says they work differently internally. They were popular in the UK at the end of the 19th century and there are a lot of tunebooks for them. It seems to have been rather limited in its capabilities. TheSnail: thanks, that book looks fascinating. The guy on the cover is playing what looks very like my metal Turkish G clarinet, only with less keys. It's a very good instrument for accompanying singing and is not at all raucous. It originated in France, as the "clarinette d'amour", and some of them must have made it to England. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM Pipe organs have been used for accompaniment in our English cathedrals for centuries; smallish country churches used to have much unaccompanied singing before the church bands that you mention, Eliza, and relatively inexpensive harmoniums - the most portable of which came to be used by travelling preachers. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM You got a metal Turkish G, Jack? I play one in my dreams! I use a nice old Eb alto (for the bottom end) and two old simple systems in C and Bb, albeit miltary pitch which seems work out around 39 cents sharp of concert, same as my Indian pocket trumpet. These latter have very wide bores, so nice for getting those Albanian kaba brays in the bottom end, though given the chops on those guys I doubt it would bother them what they play - like this guy Here, who looks like he's playing a full Boehm and sounding like a dream. Here's a nice Turkish wooden G... Otherwise, here's my C clarinet (and citera, doromb, bendir etc.) and some fruit lovely bats I filmed in the dark at Chester Zoo's free flying bat exhibit a couple of years back: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z53_paumPlo. |
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