England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

"but surely you can understand that I'm more wary of what those who post on here have say by way of "feedback" "

That [u]is[/u] understandable, due to the nature of the internet, except that many of those offering feedback on here have years of experience of performing, singing and playing instruments, including in some cases the recorder. Many post under their real names, others are easily identifiable. Some are highly-respected professionals, others are well-respected semi-pros or amateurs, but most have a reputation, either nationally or locally, on the folk scene.

In other words, they know what they are talking about, and when they tell you that your singing and recorder-playing techniques are rubbish, you would do well to listen.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Pip - I disagree with your definition above

Evidently, because it nails you as the racist you undoubtedly are. Thus, the only place you are not a racist is in your head, and what a place that must be! Remember, it was you who said England was a more English place 50 years ago - only a racist would believe that, Wavy.

if I'd repeadedly described a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" (IB - who just called me "racist" and "bigoted" again) what would have happened? I.e., some of you clearly DON'T play each ball on its merrits, sadly.

Engrish is a cultural & linguistic phenomenon with various books & websites (and even a WIKI page) devoted to it. It is the incongruity of you calling your Japanese plastic recorder an English Flute which gave rise to Don's choice piece of twisting. Given that you Love the world Being Multi-Cultural it is supremely ironic you would choose to play such an instrument in the first place, being mass-manufactured in a country whose own indigenous and traditional musics are about as far from the strictures of Western Art Music embodied in the recorder as you could wish to get. It is also hypocritical in the extreme when for the same price (or a little more) you could have bought yourself an English penny-whistle of exquisite craftsmanship (one by Dave Shaw of Durham for example) more suited to your professed aims and interests in English folk music which is a complete anathema to the recorder and the music for which it was invented, and, indeed, revived.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

More multicutltural music!

David Broza is an Israeli musician who grew up as a teenager in Spain. He performs Spanish music, singer/songwriter stuff, folk songs and even jazz and blues. He sings in Hebrew, Spanish, English and Arabic!
One of my favourite performers. His concerts are always affordable and he gives all he's got. I was at one where he played for 3 consecutive hours, giving 4 encores.
Not only is his music great, David Broza is also a dedicated social activist. He doesn't merely walkabout with his pen, but goes out and does things.


Sigaliot (Un Ramito de Violetas).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYJgNl1Mc8

Yihiye Tov (Things Will Be Alright aka Peace Song #539/a).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTXMPbeLZjM&feature=related

Bedouin Love Song.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TFos2UX_Qo&feature=related

Mitachat Lashamaim (Under the Skies).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV0RZIRdDmA&feature=related

Matchil Linshom (Starting to Breathe).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P2DA1saVyA

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

WAV; you have been told authoritatively, repeatedly and with references that your definition of racism and the term 'racist' is unacceptably narrow in any sense, and does not meet any academically acceptable definition. We know that you love the world being multicultural, and that you have visited a number of countries; you just don't want the other cultures to influence the purity of your self-proclaimed 'own good English culture'. Correct? If so, you are seeking cultural apartheid, and this falls easily within the boundaries of a racist act, i.e. you deny access to your culture to those of a different culture, in that you insist they perform only their own culture. You therefore act and write in a racist way, and do not retract from that position when challenged, indeed you repeat it verbatim. The only logical conclusion to draw is that you are a committed and irretrievable racist. This is not some abstract argument, it's an academically sound, logical progression using your writings compared to accepted definitions. You are a racist, and a particularly unpleasant kind; one who believes he has a cause that needs defending. It is this kind of racism that characterises organisations like the BNP, the Verwoerts government in South Africa, the rule of Idi Amin in Uganda and the ethnic cleansing policies of Serbia in the Balkans.
Your chosen cause appears to be the cleansing of the folk music culture in this country to fit your self-generated idea of what English folk music should be. Once again, your definition has been challenged and utterly refuted, with chapter and verse being provided by some of the best and most authoritive voices in the field. This refutation renders your defence of the cause redundant, due to the false construct upon which it was based.
Finally; you attempt to set rules about how folk music should be performed, both vocally and instrumentally. I would respectfully suggest that this would carry greater weight if you were able to offer both lengthy experience of performing and some verifiable ability as a musician. Generally those who create rules in their field do so from a basis of a high level of skill, knowledge and experience, not to mention academic qualifications. While I accept you do have some qualifications, none of them relate directly to the field in which you seem determined to prescribe some fairly draconian limits to what can or cannot be played, and the methods by which permitted music should be performed. Can you explain your reasoning why the many professional musicians on this board should change their established performing practice to suit the ideas of someone who barely qualifies as an amateur?

Your normal approach when and if you reply to a post is to claim that the person posting is attacking you in some way; please don't pull that tactic this time; I am not attacking you as a person, I am attacking your published, repeated and self-defended ideas. In saying that you are racist; this isn't an attack, it is an attempt to show you that this is an inescapable conclusion reached by reading your work and applying accepted definitions of 'racist'. If you were prepared to modify your position in any way, then I and (I suspect) many others would be prepared to reconsider that conclusion, but so far you have not budged an inch.

Please read this post carefully, and attempt to reply without referring to your websites or repeating any of the redundant arguments you have applied so far (by which I mean 'all of them').
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM

The above was me.

Here are some more.

Stav Mesukan (Dangerous Autumn). The translation isn't very good, so ignore it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iudUvBu6UsI&feature=related

Ha'isha She'iti (La Mujer Que Yo Quiero, a Serrat song).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmBSJ2bsCDo&feature=related

Bikur Moledet (Homecoming).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8TsfEkhCVA&feature=related

Me Voy. Entirely in Spanish.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKomBBuxh2I&feature=related

Isla Mujeres. Another one in Spanish.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmMba2Ipy3M&feature=related

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM

What's the best sort of glue for sticking ebony?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

Volgadon - where I've used imperialism I mean acquiring empire by conquest. And, as for the rest, I've said before - given all that imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration obviously has occured, WHAT IS BEST FROM NOW ON...
"if I'd repeadedly described a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" (IB - who just called me "racist" and "bigoted" again) what would have happened? (me)...We would have known you have a sense of humour, and laughed (Volgadon)...and do you think Japanese people would also laugh?
IB - what if Don tells you to put your hand in the fire?
Tim - what's your stance on "Engrish frute" (IB, above)?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

: it is supremely ironic you would choose to play such an instrument
: in the first place, being mass-manufactured in a country whose own
: indigenous and traditional musics are about as far from the
: strictures of Western Art Music embodied in the recorder as you
: could wish to get

In fact there is a good arrangement of some Japanese music for the Engrish Frute:

Eight Japanese Pieces for Tenor Recorder

They are not that easy to play and call for some unusual techniques to emulate the shakuhachi. ("Shakuhachi" apparently means "blowjob" in modern colloquial Japanese but that doesn't mean Wavy's technique is called for). I haven't tried to play them for years but I think I only got two or three of them down really well.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx8U9Qhku0

I'll get my coat..

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

WAV please recognise one or two things:

No-one knows you except by your posts and web presence. When people disagree vehemently with you it's because they find your ideas wrong/mistaken/offensive. The discussion becomes one of frustration because you never read a post (think about that simple word read).

Criticism of you on the web is usually honest, usually correct, sometimes vituperative and sarcastic. Many criticisms are well argued (academically) and thoughtfully offered.

Criticisms and appraisals of your entries at a competition are unlikely to be honest; more likely to be kind. People who run competitions want to encourage entries - kind words and selective praise will do that.
Find an honest singer or musician and ask them how you can improve.

I don't know a way for you to improve your political and social understanding. I think you suffer from cognitive dissonance.

No-one wants to dislike you except for your antisocial beliefs.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

and do you think Japanese people would also laugh?

Yes. If they had a sense of humour and don't take themselves too seriously.
Of course, if it were ment to offend or was done obnoxiously, that's a different matter, but it's all in the intent.

Volgadon - where I've used imperialism I mean acquiring empire by conquest. And, as for the rest, I've said before - given all that imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration obviously has occured, WHAT IS BEST FROM NOW ON...

It's just that you use it so randomnly, one is never quite sure. Wav is the Ron Burgundy of political philosophy.

How is declaring that certain music should only be played by certain races NOT racist?

What do you think about the Nigunei Meron info?

Wav, if you are part of the Manchester family, which I highly doubt, then your ancestors definitely WERE capitalist immigrants.
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:Vew1m9flbfcJ:www.msim.org.uk/media/33871455/thefranksfamily.pdf+jewish+franks+manchester&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7
In the which case, shouldn't you lead the way (leading by example is the best way forward) and repatriate yourself to the Netherlands?

so all the talk from our elders of better community spirit, being able to leave their front door open without fear, etc., is nonsense?

Take a look at this!!
www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/martin.carthy/songs/johnblunt.html

Here is another interesting story.
I guess society suffered because those poor, benighted villagers stopped practising their own good culture.

"The following, perhaps related story, was told to me 40 years ago by a famous musicologist whose son was a musico-ethnologist. The son attended a conference where one of the more exciting papers was given by a man who had succeeded in reaching an isolated South American Indian tribe, never before visited by white men with a battery operated tape recorder and recorded their music. When he played the tape, one of the audience caused a disturbance by jumping up and shouting, 'Those are Polish Jewish Hassidic melodies.'

The story becomes more interesting when the researcher presented a paper a few years later in apology. The new story, prompted by the reference to Hassidic melodies, was as follows. One of the older Indians remembered that some 60 years earlier a peddler had come to the village and was trapped there for a long time, more than a month, perhaps even as long as two. At that time, as they warmed themselves, taking shelter from the rain, he would sing to them and teach them his songs."
Robert Werman,

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

"IB - what if Don tells you to put your hand in the fire?"

David, both Mr. Beard and I are guilty of telling you the truth and I guess you just aren't up to handling it. Your indulging in this kind of snotty remark pretty well indicates that you are on political, cultural, and ethnomusicological thin ice and you know it.

". . . and do you think Japanese people would also laugh?"

I think so. A good friend of mine when I was in college, John Matsumoto (American-born of Japanese ancestry and, of course, spoke accentless American English), told a couple of Japanese dialect jokes that were hilarious. Some of the best renditions of Jewish dialect jokes I have ever heard were told to me by people of the Jewish persuasion. I imagine that there are a few who might be offended, but these would be people who are hypersensitive pure-culture freaks whose perspective of the world is limited (no matter how extensively they may have traveled) and whose sense of humor had been amputated.

####

Speaking of penny-whistles, I have a whole quiver-full in various keys. I have never looked into the history of the penny-whistle and where it originated. That doesn't seem particularly important to me; what is important is that one can play music with them. But I do associated them with the British Isles, because it was on recordings of music from the British Isles that I first heard one.

It is not important to me to label the penny-whistle with a country of origin, such as "Irish penny-whistle" or "English penny-whistle." It's just not that important.

I've messed around with them from time to time, but I don't really know how to play them. So I most certainly would not post my fumbling attempts on MySpace and inflict my inept squawks and fweeps on poor, unsuspecting web surfers. I am a humanitarian, after all (even if I don't have a BA in Humanities).

Some years ago, I walked into a music store and asked the clerk if he had any penny-whistles. He did have them. Generation brand (officially a "flageolet"). In addition to various pitches, Generation makes them in both brass and nickel-plate. The nickel-plated ones cost a bit more. I was not aware of this at the time.

He answered my question by saying, "Yes, but all I have are the nickel ones."

The answer had me completely flummoxed. I thought about it for a moment, then asked him, "Do you have any for a dime?" Then it was his turn to be flummoxed.

Suddenly we both realized the miscommunication and burst out laughing.

We drew a few quizzical glances from other customers in the store.

Don Firth

(For those who may not be familiar with American coinage:    Penny = coin of lowest value.   Nickel = worth five pennies.   Dime = worth ten pennies. As I recall, the actually price of the nickel-plated penny-whistle was about $4.95 plus sales tax.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

I love Jewish dialect jokes, in fact, I love good dialect jokes of any kind.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM

Wav, what if the UN decreed that you put your hand in the fire?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM

Tim: Please read this post carefully, and attempt to reply without referring to your websites or repeating any of the redundant arguments you have applied so far (by which I mean 'all of them').

And here's WAV's reply, in full:

Tim - what's your stance on "Engrish frute" (IB, above)?

Dishonest racist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM

Don Firth

I have never looked into the history of the penny-whistle and where it originated.

Perhaps this would help -http://www.flickr.com/photos/king76/580821163/

But then again, it might not.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM

Maybe Wav was right.
Here are some of the problems associated with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under one state law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q&feature=related

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:44 PM

England WAS a more English place 50 years ago, things have sadly changed. Look at the influence this has had on the language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc15l-fbXoI&NR=1

Also, here is an interesting theological debate, settled by Fry and Laurie.

"Is God an Englishman? Well, that's a tricky one. Theologians are pretty much undecided, but I think it is universally accepted that he isn't Welsh."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:56 PM

Ah, the values of the 1950s.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGf_KWFbcU

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:50 PM

WAV; unlike you, I'll answer the question; my stance on 'Engrish Frute' is that I have no 'stance' as such; I recognise it for what it is, a humorous remark, not meant to harm or disadvantage others. Now, having had a direct reply to your question, perhaps you would do me the courtesy of responding in full to my earlier post? So far, I note that you have not been able to muster any sort of counter argument to the logical sequence posited, merely reverting to questions with little or no relevance to the central point. Once again, this seems to be a common tactic amongst racists; when challenged effectively about their central belief system, they always talk about something else. It's usually economics, or law, or religion; anything to avoid making the key admission that they simply don't like or understand foreigners, and don't want them polluting their country/street/culture. I still think you are the worst kind of racist, and until you make a reasoned argument to the contrary, without using your utterly discredited websites as evidence I shall continue to think so. I'm not alone here; there are many better minds than mine engaged in discussion with you, and almost all have reached the same conclusion. Come on WAV; convince me you aren't a racist. I for one would be glad to hear a sound argument that you aren't; but I repeat, nothing on your websites, or posted by you on the Mudcat so far even comes close to being that argument. On the contrary; almost every utterance has the opposite effect, reinforcing the impression that you are irredeemably racist.
I look forward to a considered and comprehensive reply, not another inane and irrelevant question.
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM

Jack Campin: I'm afraid your link wouldn't work here, but much thanks for the information regarding the book of Japanese music for the E-frute. This is a link by which UK readers can purchase it, should they wish, like me, to lower themselves and indulge in foreign experimentation from time to time:
http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/023344/details.html

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

mandotim - I feel sorry for you my friend. You remain entrapped in your ignorance. Let me help you see the light...

WAV is that rare thing, a reasonable man beset on all sides by the foolish, ignorant and simple, or by those with their own evil agendas.

We are fortunate that by virtue of him being brought up in a foreign land he can see the lies and deceit which have blinded those of us that grew up in England. By not having been indoctrinated he can see the tragedy of a country brought to its knees by immigration and the domination of foreign cultures. Woe unto us if he had not returned to be our saviour, our proud nation could have sunk beneath the waves.

His adept musical talents and extensive research watching the BBC will lead to a renaissance of old England and strip away the indulgent foreign influences that incompetent charlatans like the Carthys, Spiers, Bodens et al. have foisted upon us. Rejoice because with his guidance we're about to enter the holy land of pure English music and song.

His courage is to be admired in that despite the hordes of posters telling him he is wrong, he sticks to the true way and resists any doubt, because only he knows what is right and proper. He knows that experience, education, skill, talent, sensitivity, knowledge and a reputation built over a lifetime of performing at the highest level are of no worth compared to his own attributes, and we should respect the fact that he lets nobody possessing them cause him a moments self-doubt.   

His views on immigration are the only reasonable views and, although they only seem to be shared by right-wing extremists at the moment, it's surely only a matter of time before all reasonable Englishmen subscribe to them. Soon we will be back to the happy happy land that was England in 1958.

mandotim, WAV is nothing else but the messiah of the English and you should be ashamed of yourself that you haven't already realised this. I hope you now see the errors of your ways.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM

Stu - "Criticisms and appraisals of your entries at a competition are unlikely to be honest; more likely to be kind. People who run competitions want to encourage entries - kind words and selective praise will do that."...this is another sad case of knocking those you may normally respect in desperation to get at me. And what's your stance on a recorder made in Japan being repeatedly reffered to as an "Engrish frute" (IB)? Would you have ignored it if I had posted it?
Do you try and play each ball on it's merrits?

Pip - who just called me a "dishonest racist"...please answer what I just ased of Stu.

Don - the penny-whistle evolved from the English flageolet in England. And are you sure Japanes people would not be offended by the term "Engrish frute"?

Tim - another who doesn't seem to think "Engrish frute" (as used by IB above) is offensive to Japanese people - what you just posted about me is false and defamatory because there IS a difference between questioning immigration and racism. Racism is where someone attacks or mocks a person or people from a particular culture or race, which is something I have never done.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

I think "Engrish frute" is rather witty, and that taken in context it wasn't racist. (Note to WAV: this is called answering a question. Try it some time.)

Racism is where someone attacks or mocks a person or people from a particular culture or race, which is something I have never done

No, that's attacking or mocking people on racist grounds. I'm glad to hear you've never done that, but that's not by any means the only form of racism.

I could argue that I'm an Italian opera singer by redefining the words in my own special way, but the rest of the world is going to carry on thinking I'm an English folkie. If you don't want me to call you a racist, you'll have to take account of why I call you a racist, not just tell me that you're not a racist by your personal definition. And if you don't want to be considered dishonest, stop bouncing back with the same old slogans and the same old links, and ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE ASK YOU.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

Your beloved UN defines Racial Discrimination as:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

These distinctions are what you believe in, aren't they?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM

LOL.....Well Ed, you seem to have cut to the chase with a sharp blade!

Wavy, the proper terminology in this case is "Gotcha!" Ed has "gotcha" from any and all angles in a way you can't deny.

GOTCHA!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Our local kebab shop had its windows put in last weekend by people shouting "go back home" and telling the owners to leave England to the English or they'll burn their shop & home down. This of course is where WAV's line of thinking ends up, whether he recognises it or not. Personally I know who I'd like to keep and who I'd want to kick out.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

WAV; I asked you to do me the courtesy of replying without resorting to your discredited websites or repeating any of the arguments you have used already. You have used both your website and an old argument, and nothing else. No new thinking, no learning in the light of reasoned arguments contrary to your own entrenched views. I'm not sure whether this trait of yours is intransigence, malice, illiteracy or just pure stupidity (in the true sense of stupidity, an inability to learn or to reason).
Guest Ed has given you a definition of racism used by a body you quote as useful in your own manifesto for humanity. It has academic as well as institutional weight, and is considerably broader than your self generated definition which appears to have been invented and refined to suit your own rather specious arguments about immigration and culture. Under the UN definition, your views on excluding other cultures and restrictions on freedom of movement for whatever purpose clearly and unequivocally amount to rascism. You continue to stand by those views and to advocate them personally, therefore QED you are a racist.
Once again; please do me the courtesy of coming up with an argument as to why I and others shouldn't consider you to be a racist, without using your discredited websites or your previously refuted arguments. Lets see if you can think and learn, as opposed to simply repeating old news. Perhaps you could base the argument on a line-by-line comparison between your views and the UN definition of racism?
Tim
PS Guest Woody; I recognise the error of my ways. The sackcloth and ashes are on order from ebay, and I intend to flagellate myself daily until they are delivered. Granma McAlatia has offered to help with the flagellating, but I'm not sure I trust her.
PPS WAV; flagellation has nothing to do with playing the pennywhistle.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

the penny-whistle evolved from the English flageolet in England.

No it didn't. You've been told this any amount of times before, Wavy - so please pay attention. The classic tin, or penny, whistle, was invented by Robert Clarke in 1843 as a way of manufacturing the internationally & historically ubiquitous 6-hole whistle flute out of tin plate. Clarke's whistles (traditionally in C but latterly in D also) are still made in this way, and I have a vintage (1930s?) instrument in E, similarly decorated in distinctive black and gold with the name Calura, possibly made by Clarke for export. Superior whistles in keys both high & low are made in this way in County Durham by celebrated pipe maker Dave Shaw.

The Flageolet, on the other hand, was a short lived aristocratic parlour novelty, derived, in part from the declining recorder (or common flute), whose name was much later used by Generation for their 6-hole whistles, hence the present confusion sourced no doubt, as with so much else, from WIKI.

Meanwhile, here's a nice whistle site from Australia you might enjoy:

http://www.ozwhistles.com/

Otherwise:

And what's your stance on a recorder made in Japan being repeatedly reffered to as an "Engrish frute"

Yet another of Wavy's beloved smokescreen tactics; if he's not ridiculing my academic record, or my opinion of the New Labour, then I'm being condemned for joining in a bit of larking in the light of his more serious racist propagandising with respect of his English Fecking Flute. I answered this below, but, for those who missed it, like Wavy obviously, here it is again, albeit revised:

Engrish is a cultural & linguistic phenomenon with various books & websites (and even a WIKI page) devoted to it. It exists on a similar level of incongruity to Wavy calling his Japanese plastic recorder an English Flute, which is what gave rise to Don's choice piece of twisting. Given that Wavy so Loves the world Being Multi-Cultural it is supremely ironic he would choose to play such an instrument in the first place, being industrially mass-produced in a country whose own indigenous and traditional musics are about as far from the strictures of Western Art Music embodied in the recorder as one could wish to get. It is also hypocritical in the extreme when for the same price (or a little more) he could have bought himself an English penny-whistle of exquisite craftsmanship more suited to his professed aims and interests in English folk music which is a complete anathema to the recorder and the music for which it was invented, and, indeed, revived.

Also, this is what a Shakuhachi sounds like (all 14 hours of it apparently) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hP6_OkUFznY, in case you were wondering...

Remember, Wavy - no one is concerned with your personal beliefs; rather it is that you should publish and promote them that gives us the right of criticism. Such criticism, however, does not give you the right of retaliation, and certainly not repeated retaliation when your retaliatory points have been satisfactorily dealt with. Anything you hurl at me, Wavy, however so personal it might be - I answer, in detail. Now, maybe you ought to try doing that with some of the questions that have been asked of you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,David Burland
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

Maybe the hammered dulcimer?There are similar instruments in Europe too.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

"Maybe the hammered dulcimer?" It is also known, made & played in China!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

The hammered dulcimer is the national instrument of IRAN.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

Interestingly in China the hammer dulcimer is known as Yang Chin or Yan Qin which means - foreign zither instrument! But it's true what Ron says - the hammer dulcimer is about as international as the Jew's Harp, which the Chinese also have in various forms, but of especial interest is the Ho-Ho, or Kou-Xiang, consisting three to six tuned instruments in one. As with most things he turns his hand to, Nadishana's is one the finest expondents of this instrument - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjZKDqcKLyg. He also sells them... Not for beardies though, insane or otherwise!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM

The santour.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEWGtIzZARc&feature=related

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

WAV it is not secret that judges look for encouraging ways to say 'that was pretty awful'. Normal entrants accept the 'praise' for what it is - encouragement to keep trying.

I'll translate for you 'Keep trying; you may improve with time and experience'.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Ed and Spaw and Tim - to say that that UN definition is referring to regulations on immigration/emigration, which I'm merely saying should be stonger than the status quo, would be silly.

IB - as well as repeatedly referring to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" you have also told as of your friends at the pub making racist jokes. I never do that - what I do, rather, is question the act of immigration itself, which is NOT racism.

DB - sorry I can't recall his name, but I enjoyed a chap from somewhere south playing a hammered dulcimer very well at the Rothbury Trad. Mus. Festival this year.

"WAV it is not secret that judges look for encouraging ways to say 'that was pretty awful'. Normal entrants accept the 'praise' for what it is - encouragement to keep trying. I'll translate for you 'Keep trying; you may improve with time and experience'" (Stu)...I stand by what I said above: you are knocking folks you may normally respect to have another go at me, sadly - i.e., some well-respected folkies both compete and judge at these events and, without suchlike, maybe we wouldn't have some of the earliest folkie recordings, such as Joseph Taylor's unaccompanied singing.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

Silly in what way, WAV? By the way, to answer a carefully reasoned and thoughtful argument with an ill-tempered, poorly written and insulting one-line reply is a little disrespectful, don't you think? Please explain your reasoning behind that remark. The UN definition refers to many things, but immigration is not among them. Go back and read it again, particularly the part about culture. Remember, you are not being attacked here; you are being offered an opportunity to withdraw from your racist positions, or at least explain them in the light of the overwhelming eveidence ranged against you. As we stand, I still think you are a racist, for the reasons outlined in my post above, which so far you have not made an attempt to refute. Are you prepared to convince me (and many others) that you are not racist, without repeating the same tired arguments from your discredited websites?
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

Wav, Stu was not knocking anyone. Were I running a competition, I would consider that a compliment. The point of these is not to brake the person down, but to encourage them to participate and create.
The sort of competition Taylor took part in wasn't there to judge their singing, but to find new songs.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

Thank you, Ed, for posting the United Nations' definition of racial discrimination. That is quite clear, while at the same time being both complete and concise. And on that basis, I am afraid that the charge that David is a racist, based on his own assertions, is irrefutable.

Regarding my attempt at humorous whimsy with "Engrish frute" (My God! He just did it again!), if this has offended anyone of the Japanese persuasion, then I humbly apologize. It was certainly not my intent.

However, it looks to me as if someone is fastening on it in an effort to level a counter-charge against one of his critics and thereby divert attention from his own bigoted viewpoint.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

what I do, rather, is question the act of immigration itself, which is NOT racism.

Questioning immigration is not racism, unless you question immigration for racist reasons - which is what you do. That's why I call you a racist. You refuse even to acknowledge this very simple point, despite it being made to you several times. That's why I call you dishonest.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

IB - as well as repeatedly referring to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" you have also told as of your friends at the pub making racist jokes. I never do that - what I do, rather, is question the act of immigration itself, which is NOT racism.

More repeated personal retaliation, Wavy - all of which has been answered in good faith, as far as you were justified in bringing it up in the first place. Lots of people say silly things in their cups - God knows they're only human - but only you, it would seen, would write it up and publish it as your Life's Work and promote it as the Best Way Forward for Humanity. As Don says above it looks to me as if someone is fastening on it in an effort to level a counter-charge against one of his critics and thereby divert attention from his own bigoted viewpoint. So, nice to see you're so rattled as to resort to such grossly underhand tactics but please, stop throwing up smokescreens and just answer the points.

Let's go back to the UN definition of racial discrimination shall we?

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Now, without reference to my education, drunken friends, Engrish Frute, or opinions of New Labour, justify how, in the light of the above, your ideas aren't racist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

"Questioning immigration is not racism, unless you question immigration for racist reasons - which is what you do. That's why I call you a racist. You refuse even to acknowledge this very simple point, despite it being made to you several times. That's why I call you dishonest." (Pip) WRONG: I have, rather, questioned immigration/emigration on several grounds in my collection - NONE of them racist. I've also suggested that, whatever their "origin" (UN definition above), accepting that all that imperialism and economic immigration has occured, people now in England, e.g., should be into our own good English culture and values much more than present. And, as said above, even New Labour, after about a decade of pro-immigration and diversity, must have noticed some problem here just recently as they have now intoduced regulatory English tests.

"More repeated personal retaliation" (IB)...if you think that's the case, don't attack with false and defamatory language, then. And, if you are so heavily against racism, why would you post "Engrish frute" or have friends who make racist jokes?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

David, you keep saying things like "our own good English culture and values." I would like to hear you offer some specifics as to what you regard as the essential characteristics of "our own good English culture and values." I'm quite sure that some of your countrymen would also like to have you delineate what you mean.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

Still no answer to my posts above, WAV. Still no satisfactory explanation of the relationship between your views and the UN definition of racism posted above either. You're nailed completely by that one aren't you? No wriggle room at all. All you can do is keep spouting the same inanities, but you can't tackle the basic truth; when judged against a robust definition of racism, you are a racist, as evidenced by your own writings and arguments here. Ignore immigration for now WAV, the UN definition doesn't mention it at all, so there is no reason why you should; your other main argument is about the arbitrary segregation of cultures. This means you would deny people access to participation in cultures other than their own,restricting them to observer status only. The indigenous population, on the other hand, would have full access to participation in that culture. Read this again, from the UN;

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

You propose and persist in defending such a restriction in the cultural field of public life, based on national origin. Once again, based on the above definition, you are proposing a racist act, refusing to explain or recant, and you are therefore quite fairly condemned as an unrepentant racist. I would have thought someone with your professed views would glory in being called a racist, since it accurately describes what you stand for.

Once again WAV; a graduate level student should be able to argue this case convincingly, or adapt their thinking to deal with overwhelming evidence. What you choose to do is indulge in trivialisation, reductionism, personal attacks (especially on Insane Beard) and unthinking and uncritical recitation of the same discredited points. I have heard a better level of intellectual discourse among young people in their early teens, and if you were one of my undergraduates you would probably fail every course; time to shape up and come up with an adult level of discussion. Once more; I believe you are a racist when compared to the UN definition. Using the same definition, produced by an organisation you have great faith in, can you convince me that this is not true?
I look forward to a properly argued response.
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

I have, rather, questioned immigration/emigration on several grounds in my collection - NONE of them racist

I have no idea whether this is true or not, and I've no intention of wading through your collection to find out. I'm taking issue with your comments on immigration here on Mudcat, and almost all of them have been racist. But prove me wrong: what are your grounds for "questioning immigration"?

people now in England, e.g., should be into our own good English culture and values much more than present

Do you mean that immigrants should abandon their own culture? But "when people lose their culture society suffers", or so you've said. Doesn't this imply that we'll all be better off if immigrants maintain their own culture, and contribute it to the hybrid cultural life of England?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

I did read and respond to that definition, Tim, and Pip just reposted part of it; and as for "we'll all be better off if immigrants maintain their own culture" (Pip) I (and as just said, apparently, New Labour with their new English tests) question this on many grounds - the most extreme problem of course being terrorism.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM

I did read and respond to that definition, Tim, and Pip just reposted part of it

Not that I noticed. (Nor, of course, did you answer my direct question. I suppose I should be used to that by now.)

Look, here's the UN definition again:

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

In other words, deciding on the basis of race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that one group or another should not enjoy fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life on an equal footing with all other groups. Such as, for example, the fundamental freedom to move to another country if that's where the work is, or the fundamental freedom to choose what you wear, how you worship and what kind of music you listen to. You are self-evidently committed to restricting these freedoms on racial grounds; hearing you deny it would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

as for "we'll all be better off if immigrants maintain their own culture" (Pip) I (and as just said, apparently, New Labour with their new English tests) question this on many grounds

But WAV, "when people lose their culture society suffers" (your own words). Are immigrants not people?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:56 PM

'to have another go at me' WAV above. This is paranoia. No-one is out to get you. No-one knows anything about you save what you publish. When you publish you lay your publications open to critical comment and rebuttal. This is part of the norm in the scientific world and is known as peer review.

Your views are rejected by your peers and betters

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

It's obvious Pip - immigrants are terrorists, and they want to destroy our folk music.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

1100

Stu