England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM

Nice one, Diane - I linked to that over at the JEAS thread for Hallowe'en.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:55 PM

Whether you like the syrupy nature or not, this Brass Band music may have a decent shot...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

This. (Also a strong contender for "single most exciting thing I've ever heard".)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

Or, slightly less unpredictably, this (which came out the year before the one above). There's the voice, of course, but there's also the rather plodding 'electric Morris' arrangement (which sounds very 70s and very English) and the wonderful brass section* that comes in halfway through (which sounds timeless and very English). And there's the knowledge that this song, or something very like it, was circulating on broadsides in the seventeenth century... It's powerful stuff.

*Actually sackbuts - a word which in turn sounds incredibly English, but actually comes straight from the French 'saque-boute', meaning 'pull-push'. Whereas 'trombone' comes from the Italian 'trombone', meaning 'daffodil'.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM

Errmmm, Ed, that's a ten minute clip from the Railway Children... I dotted in and out of it, but I couldn't find any Brass band music - care to say whereabouts in the clip it is??

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:49 PM

There's a crap silver band 10" in. Or I think that's what it is. There again, it could be an irony band.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C35qNxq9KWc&feature=relate

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:11 PM

Nah, you're all wrong. (I'm your replacement WaV while he's 'gone walkabout')

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Poland
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:30 AM

The most famous of English bell-ringers... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKhMP2r4XGk&feature=related

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

And the best known brass band...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKQcApRudIs

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM

Love those Coventry bells. Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCg1NJFgV7U

Which is nice & English too of course...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

"To use cricketing terms,wav has had his middle stump,off stump leg stump,systematically hit,he has been bowled over,by a googly a full toss,a leg cutter and a chinaman,and like W G GRACE Refuses to exit to the pavilion,he believes like Grace,that the audience have come to see him perform.
WAV let me give you some tips,this is constructive musical criticism,get some voice lessons so that you can hold a note for a length of time without going flat,I would also advise an instrument other than the recorder,that can accompany your singing and help you to make a more varied sound,banjo, guitar etc.,,the didgeridoo would also help you with your breathing[no offence intended]." (CB)...as much as I enjoyed VISITING Ireland, I will never do as you've done and "exit" England for that or any other country.
And, also unlike you, I'll keep working at just THE TUNES - as my English folky forebears did for centuries.

To Pip - at least we agree on concertinas, and I'm glad you managed to get folks talking about them, plus bells, brass, etc...and, yes, CB, I prefer the chromatic English concertina for the reasons you, and I, just gave.

Eliza - most of my repertoire I've learnt from the dots and following my flute and keyboards; but I have also learnt a couple of E trads (where I haven't found the dots and have just began to work them out myself) from the likes of Waterson:Carthy - but they are E TRADS, and surely that's okay within our ORAL TRADITION. (To go back to cricket for a moment, are you sure you're playing each ball on it's merrits?)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:31 AM

Mmm...criticising the Captain, now, are we, Franks? A man whoe has more music in his little finger than you can ever hope for. No hope for you, cock. And, incidentally, how do you know what the devil your "folky forebears" were doing or singing centuries ago? Folky foreplay, more like...

And if you're going to exercise the merits of your BA in Humanities, then at least spell the word as "merits" and not "merrits".

And, dang me, you've learned a "couple of E trads" by ear, have you? Well, that makes you able to pontificate even more, I suppose?

Gawd 'elp us!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM

Whahey! Here's something else for the Quintessentially English Merit Award:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9yQj4DMAsaY

And Pip - just noticed your link back there; classic stuff! Funny how you forget about these things.

___________________

Otherwise...

Wavy - if such things were possible, I'd tell you to go fuck yourself, which is basically what you're doing anyway - gratifying yourself with no regard for anyone else. Having rejected everything everyone's told you, you now proceed to advise on the nature of the ORAL TRADITION. Whatever else the ORAL TRADITION might be, it is not about copying songs off records & CDs - that is simply lazy, half-arsed sourcing because even after four years of posing as a folky you haven't got the first clue what English Traditional Song is actually about.

The tone of smug superiority you take with both EC & CB is a measure of what a nasty little self-righteous self-satisfied shit you really are. How fucking dare you question what anyone does? I hereby delete you from my various Myspace friends in the sincere hope that our paths never cross again.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM

This is my idea of English concertina. Also this (incidentally the fourth or fifth completely different interpretation of this song I've heard (counting my own); someone should do a compilation). Full disclosure: I've got a recorder (plastic, made in Japan) but mainly use it for converting tunes I know by ear to notes I can write down; I find its tone difficult to hit consistently & not rich enough to warrant the effort.

Bells always make me think of an odd line in The nine tailors - Lord Peter says, "Bells are like cats and mirrors - they're always queer, and it doesn't do to think too much about them." The odd thing is, I know just what he means.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:25 AM

"I hereby delete you from my various Myspace friends in the sincere hope that our paths never cross again."

Shine on - this is getting serious! Next people will be crossing WAV off their Christmas card lists and drawing moustaches on his picture. Oh, hold on . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

Justlistening to the Heywood Concertina Band with James Eastwood on "English International" - definitely not playing a single line .. lots of extraneous harmonies... oh dear!!!
By the way chaps - only another 37 or so postings before we hit 1500!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

Sorry - make that 32!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM

But the Heywood Concertina Band isn't Really Folk, is it? Just like brass bands play harmonies but don't count either, and neither do the Coppers. I do believe the Coppers were immigrants anyway, and as for Heywood people, it's arguable that they aren't even human, I know, I went there once.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:11 PM

I've got a recorder (plastic, made in Japan)

In dismay that my fingers were too big for the Garklein, I bought a plastic Aulos sopranino recorder in Manchester (Forsyths) on Saturday as something a) very cheap b) damn near unbreakable and c) ultra-portable; so portable is it, that when pulled into its 3 constituent parts it fits into the dinky little draw-string bag (bought from the Fair Trade shop in Liverpool on Monday for that very purpose), 14x9cms, along with a Chinese Kou-Xiang and three Vietnamese Dan-Moi with room to spare. This afternoon I recorded with it for the first time, a nice little no-age groove in the Traditional English Tertius Auris mode called Frigus Cavum, an MP3 of which you can download Here, gratis, secure, via YouSendIt.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

Hey IB - that's a cracking groove and a half! Amazing sound - playing it as I write this. Did you use any FX to create the piece, or just record everything straight and then mix down? As to Tertius Auris (3rd ear? My Latin is from long ago and imperfect), I know nothing about it, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM

Paul ... LOL!!! Actually, I might agree that the Heywood Band probably isn't folk... but that depends on your definition ... oops... should I have said that?? Horse alert and all that?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Will - by way of explanation... I'm indebted to the Third Ear Band for invigorating my latent musical sensibilities in early adolescence and continuing to do so to this day. What this means is droning rhythmic repetition with improvised melodic lines referencing both atonality and medieval modality, and all points in between! Thus - Tertius Auris...

Being without my 8-track right now, I recorded the sopranino live into my Zoom H4 (along with a large Indian (?) cowbell and Shruti box drone) and then processed it using Ableton Live (3) in various layers along with a drum loop (recorded for me some years back by Sned from Generic) and a suitable soft-synth bass line, itself derived from the recorder improvisation. The beauty of Ableton is, is that once all the bits are in place, you're working in real-time, applying the various FX, filters & distortions (and vinyl scratches!) as an intuitive / spontaneous / organic extension of the process.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the info, IB. Ah - the Third Ear Band - I do remember them from long ago. Must investigate again. I've never used Ableton software but it certainly seems able (sorry!) to do some very interesting processing. I use Harmony Assistant for music writing, and it's very good, but what little processing I do outside of my Roland 8-track happens with Garageband and/or Audacity - both free.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM

In the immortal words of Terry Edwards (no relation), I don't know where that's coming from, but I dig it. In the neighbourhood of Loop Guru, I thought.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:21 PM

Nice restrained version of "Sally Free and Easy" there from CB - but the videographer ought to be lined up and shot. For the benefit of others who might make the same mistakes, how was it done? Just a very bad webcam?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:27 PM

David, there are people who contribute to the gene pool of the tradition and there are people who do not. There are people who work extremely hard in order that you might make what you want out of our traditional music, have as much access to it as possible.
But we do not work for you. It's not that we demand your gratitude or anything, but learning other people's repertoires off their records, in essence taking their life's work as the base materials for your own ends, life's work that is intended to give to the tradition, and then demanding its ownership for in return for no endeavour of your own, is not the oral tradition (I can read just fine in lower case, thankyou). It isn't. It is a new thing, one that isn't necessarily bad as for some recordings are the only access that they have and the only way the new tradition has to keep going and flourish. But we do not want our commercial recordings and the fruits of our labours to be allied to your political agenda, it is anathema to us, and therefore you can't expect us to be quiet when we come across it. We are immigrants. The traveller side of the family especially must stand against what you believe. What is your stance on Gypsies I wonder? How do they fare in the new world order? Where do you put them?
When I grew up learning traditional songs from the traditional singers themselves it was considered the very least courtesy to ask, the same if by misfortune of geography you had to learn from recordings and you ran into them by chance, say at the National festival or at the House. No-one is stopping you from singing music that does in essence belong to you. Apparently no-one is stopping you from being blind to common courtesy as well as genuine concern for the state of your knowledge either. Choke on them all brother, they're all your's. But I will say it again. You are a tourist here. Tourist, tourist, tourist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:24 PM

I don't think I want to hear WaV's views on Gypsies.. mind you, given that we're all descended from nomads, it'd be hard to say it wasn't traditional.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Nice one, Eliza fc. I reckon that just about sums it up.

And nice one, Insane... Ghost meets Jah Wobble meets your good self, methinks... and definitely part of our own good mongrel culture.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM

"Whatever else the ORAL TRADITION might be, it is not about copying songs off records & CDs - that is simply lazy, half-arsed sourcing because even after four years of posing as a folky you haven't got the first clue what English Traditional Song is actually about." (IB)...you told us after listening to, and quite liking, my RECORDING of "Cob a Coaling" you were going to do so yourself - which you did...so how did you learn how it goes IB?...And have you thought of having another try at uni or other adult education?...seems to me you could do with it. And your next post about buying a plastic recorder again shows how wildly changeable your thinking is - look back at what you posted about suchlike just a few weeks ago.

Eliza - as I said, I've just worked out the dots for "Cob a Coaling" by mimicking my singing with my English flute, because I couldn't find them anywhere...so, may I ask, how/from who did W:C get the tune for it? And accepting all the immigration/emigration (including that of Gypsies) that has occurred, we must still consider what's best FROM NOW ON: I say, nationalism (with respect for any Gypsies within a nation and/or indigenous peoples such as Aboriginal Australians) with eco-travel and fair-trade (via a stronger UN), rather than yet more conquest and economic/capitalist immgigration/emigration.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:39 PM

Come on WAV - while you're unemployed why don't you undertake a course of study and upgrade your moderate and outdated qualifications?

Read IB's posts and compare them with yours and know what erudition is.

Eliza I'm sure there is the odd curse somewhere among mudcat wisdom which could be used for this xenophobic fool.

You offend me for other people who I hold dear WAV.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

"nationalism (with respect for any Gypsies within a nation"

Phew, that's generous WaV, I'm sure they'll be very grateful to you, as no doubt the Aboriginal Australians already are since you emigrated here.

I'm sure you don't really need me to suggest where you stick your nationalist filth, so I'll not waste my time.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:58 PM

so how did you learn how it goes IB?

Since you ask, I've known the song since I first started going to folk clubs around 1976 via the singing of countless floor singers; also we used to sing a lot of the verses ourselves around the streets ourselves whilst guising for Bonfire Night. I confess that I've never actually heard the Watersons' version though, not first hand at any rate...

And have you thought of having another try at uni or other adult education?...seems to me you could do with it.

Further evidence, if any were needed, of your general small-minded shit-headedness. And to think I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt all these years; even going to far as to speak out in your defence. No such doubts now anyway, Wavy - so it's nice to see your true colours at last.

And your next post about buying a plastic recorder again shows how wildly changeable your thinking is - look back at what you posted about suchlike just a few weeks ago.

See my post 21 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM? Remember? The one that sparked off the entire Engrish Frute controversy?* Otherwise, show me a single word I've written about plastic recorders that is inconsistent with me owning and playing them. I may have pointed out the incongruities of you calling a plastic Japanese-made recorder an English Flute - but never once have I said I'd never own & play such a thing? I have literally hundreds of plastic ocarinas, whoopee-whistles, fowler-calls, bird calls, cuckoo calls, ducks, owls, warblers, whizz-sirens, tabor-pipes, penny-whistles, Chinese tweeters, Swiss warblers, fart whistles, reed-horns, fog horns, pan-pipes, recorders etc. etc. - they're an integral part of my work as a storyteller, folk musician and free-improviser.

Remember, I'm not the one under scrutiny here - you are, but only because of your self-published manifesto and your constant defence and promotion of same.

* I know it was Don who first coined the phrase but I believe it was my use of it that Wavy found a particularly convenient way to smoke-screen his racism. Note if you will the use of question marks to denote up-speak, just to make our hapless Aussie Tourist / Exile feel more at home.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

have you thought of having another try at uni or other adult education?...seems to me you could do with it.

Just think, IB, you could end up as knowledgeable as WAV!

FROM NOW ON: I say, nationalism (with respect for any Gypsies within a nation and/or indigenous peoples such as Aboriginal Australians) with eco-travel and fair-trade (via a stronger UN), rather than yet more conquest and economic/capitalist immgigration/emigration.

Blimey, WAV - don't you ever bore yourself? I think if I ever quote you in future I'll do something like this:

***: I say, *** (with respect for any Gypsies within a nation and/or indigenous peoples such as Aboriginal Australians) with *** *** (*** *** ***) rather than *** *** ***

Or maybe we could give them numbers. It would save a lot of time.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

I have literally hundreds of plastic ocarinas, whoopee-whistles, fowler-calls, bird calls, cuckoo calls, ducks, owls, warblers, whizz-sirens, tabor-pipes, penny-whistles, Chinese tweeters, Swiss warblers, fart whistles, reed-horns, fog horns, pan-pipes, recorders etc

Those little flat semi-circular rubber things with the flat metal bit in the middle that you stick on your tongue and make a really piercing whistle* - have you ever got any use out of one of those?

*It does, I mean.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

Those little flat semi-circular rubber things with the flat metal bit in the middle that you stick on your tongue and make a really piercing whistle* - have you ever got any use out of one of those?

Swiss Warblers - they really are the most amazing things; similar to the Punch & Judy swazzle; lots for sale on the streets on Manchester on Saturday. Oh, and I forgot to mention nose-flutes & whistling straws...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:31 PM

IB - do you use circular breathing when you're playing wind instruments? I've always been impressed by instrumentalists and singers who can do that.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:12 PM

I confess, I confess that 'twas I who cobbled up the "Engrish frute" phrase in my alternate version of the development of England's National Musical Instrument. If anyone of Japanese ancestry found my touch of whimsy to be offensive, then to you I duly apologize and beg your forgiveness.

To anyone else who deems it "racist" (such as David, who obviously pounced on it in a vain effort to divert attention from his own racist utterings), I suggest that they strive to perform an impossible sexual act upon themselves.

I have reached a point in my life where I do not suffer fools gladly. In fact, it is the fools themselves whom I feel should do the suffering.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

IB, you say you have a foghorn?

<Paul Hogan>This</Paul Hogan> is a foghorn:

Nash Point

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

"I suggest that they strive to perform an impossible sexual act upon themselves."

That almost sounds like an interesting challenge Don. I wonder if Brownhead Wankabout has ever done any yoga.. It does annoy me when people are so intent on being seen to be 'anti-racist' they see racism where there is none, make an undue fuss about it, and end up causing more than there was in the first place. As you say though, in this case it was just being used as a red herring and an attention grabber.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM

So, WAV, given the couple of days' rest we've had from your drivel, does that mean you've now got a job, or are you still intent on being a parasite and sponging off my taxes?
To be honest, I don't know why your don't fork off off back to Australia, you pathetic little economic migrant. I know the White Australia Policy is no more, but I'm sure you can find some fellow racists out there with whom to drown your sorrows. And, at the very least, you'd give my Australian mates something to laugh at.
Who knows, you might even be able to get a job and stop being such a burden on society and on the patience of people who are far more tolerant than they should be of folk like you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

IB, you say you have a foghorn?

Amazing picture, Jack - I've got an old postcard somewhere of one on Mull (I think!). Nice pics, but are there any recordings? Personally, I could listen to those old foghorns all day - at a distance of course.

The foghorns I've got are hand-held Acmes like This.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

There's a foghorn right outside my living room window! You can read about the Spurn Lightship here and if you play the audio track at the top left of the page you can listen to its foghorn. Fortunately for me, they don't sound it now.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM

Sorry, can't tell my left from my right!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:19 PM

So, from now on, Gypsies should have to do what they are not built or born to do and stay in one place? Our traditions would be a lot poorer without their contribution, and I'm not just talking about my mother and the generations before her. Tradition just does not work the way that you think it does. There are great and ancient nomadic traditions in the world that would be lost under your rules, traditions that rely on constant change, reinvention, the passing and integrating of new blood.
Our traditions do not spring from a single source and would not survive were they reduced to one.
As to where you should learn material from that's up to you, there's a whole world of research material out there for you to find out about; a man of your academic bent is no doubt eager to root it out for yourself, use it to its fullest extent and glory. You are by no means done yet as I'm sure you know. You do, don't you?
But you would just do yourself so much of a favour in your endeavours by exhibiting even the tiniest bit of grace. Now I'm erasing words that I really think and trying to be nice to you again. Time for bed.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:01 AM

And accepting all the immigration/emigration (including that of Gypsies) that has occurred,

Blimey, how many hundred years do you have to live here before you stop being an immigrant? I wonder if Wavy Davy has checked his DNA to make sure it's fremdenrein?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM

a man of your academic bent

WAV,

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, Eliza was being ironic....

Ed

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:29 AM

Britain's loudest foghorn: Souter Lighthouse

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

Oh, and nearly forgot...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

1500!