Political Fallout At House Concert

Subject: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Today, at the Borderline Folk Music Club of Rockland we hosted Magpie, the folk duo of Greg Artzner & Terry Leonino.

Anyone who is familiar with Magpie's music knows that they are not friends of George W. or the Republican Party.

In the middle of the first set, when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up and approached me asking for their money back. They said they came to hear "folk music" and not "hateful political rhetoric". They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a mis-representation. They came for music and not politics.

The 2 ladies walked out but I refused to refund their money for 2 reasons.

a) If you go to a theatre and walk out in the middle because you do not like the play, or in this case the concert artist, you are not entitled to a refund.

b) Admission fees to a house concert is a "suggested donation" for the artist. Our club does not make a profit or retain any of the proceeds collected. All monies collected and then some go to the performer. The club can not authorize a refund of money that is not legally theirs. The money is collected on behalf of the the performers and only they can refund THEIR money.

Being that the ladies walked out in the middle of the performance they could not at that time speak with the performers. They sent me an e-mail asking that I forward it to the performers and to our club's treasurer, the implication being that they are ready to pursue this matter in small claims court for a refund of $20 per person.

I would welcome the thoughts of my fellow Mudcatters on this matter with any advice that you can give me.

SOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Give them the damn money back.

They came to hear music, not political hate speech.

I would go to small claims court if I paid to see a folk concert and got a rap show.

Next time put a warning in the adverts.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM

I dissagree with "pdq." As folksingers of "folk music", they present their music as they see it. "Folk music" is reflective of the folks. If an attendee didn't like the music ... tough luck. If they thought they deserved their money returned because the performers were very poor performers ... then that's a very different matter. Just my 2$ worth. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

A view from across the pond,
Apart from the idyllic (trad) songs, it seems that most modern songs are likely to contain some political comment.
If I was to go to a gig like yours SOL, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear something political.
I'd be astonished, however, if I heard a song in praise of George Bush or Margaret Thatcher!!

Folk song has always been a vehicle for anti-establishment views.
Sometimes it's the only way for little people to have a voice.
I say, let them sue.

You can always quote that line from your National Anthem in your defence.
"The Home of the Brave, and the Land of the Free"!!!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:54 PM

As long as the shoe is on your foot and you get to do the kicking, you seem to think that it is OK.

Imagine if ol' Sol went to a "folk concert" a couple of Arabs started singing about wiping Israel off the map or praised Hitler as a hero for starting the ovens. He would not want to support that crap and demand his money back.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

Amazing! I find myself in agreement with PDQ. I'm leaving now, to try ice skating in Hell.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

Actually pdq.
I'd be interested to hear such views, but would reserve my right not to agree with them. (And almost certainly wouldn't, but thats not the point, is it)
BTW, do you know of any such artists, who perform said material?
Only asking.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM

Skates here too..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Beer
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:12 PM

I am not familiar with magpie's music but if I was going to go and spend an evening listening to music at a coffee house or other type concert I would first find out something about the artist that was performing. In this case they should not get their money back. Whatever that amount would have been. However if they just came off the street or decided to take a stroll and spotted your event and went in. Then I would probably give them something back. Problem here is that neither of my observations has a defenit answer.

Small claims court!   Wait and see if they file. I bet they don't.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM

I'm surprised to find myself agreeing (more or less) with pdq, given his recent contributions on the overtly political threads, but - you should have just smiled and given them their money back in the first place, and said, "Hope you enjoy the next concert a little more". Now you've gotten yourself into a silly contest of wills, where everyone's pride is at stake, and everyone's competing to see who can be the most self-righteous. If you let this go on, there could be a whole lot of ridiculous publicity, and a whole lot of posturing, and the two sides will line up and throw stones at each other, and you will have done your own little part to add to the polarization of the political life of your society. Furthermore, some busybody may discover that you've been breaking some obscure bylaw with your house concerts ...

If you're really concerned about saving face, just give them half the money back, since they were there for half the concert. It'll be a lame, partial victory for both parties ...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:16 PM

Well, it's obviously a question of what they actually said. It's well and good to sit here, pdq, and talk about the eradication of Israel or the praise of Hitler...but I know these performers, and I know they didn't say anything of the sort. They said something along the lines of "we think Bush has done some stupid, illegal and immoral things." I can't imagine them venturing into "hate speech" at all.

One thing that bugs me is when people try to claim that anything they disagree with is "hate speech." Pdq only fans the flames with ludicrous references to supporting Hitler. It's like saying: "Well, what if the performers said we should all eat babies? Should the audience get its money back THEN?"

The answer is NO. The artists are ARTISTS, and the audience members paid because they suspected they might like the art. They were wrong. They wasted their money. It happens to everyone. You don't get your money back for every movie you don't like or every concert you don't like or every play you don't like. They should grow up.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:20 PM

I would think that if it went to small -- and this is really small--claims court, you would win.

Anybody who knows anything about folk music--and they should, since they thought they were going to a folk concert--should realize, as noted earlier, that protest is often a feature. Suppose they had been bankers, and Magpie had sung "Pretty Boy Floyd"-- "...some with a fountain pen". They might well not have liked that either.

So it boils down to:

1) Are you willing to waste the time it would take in small claims court--if they in fact pursue it that far?

2) Is their goodwill--at least salvaging a bit of it--worth the $40 to you?   Particularly are they likely to be able to poison the well, so future house concerts don't do that well? I'd think that unlikely--since mostly future attendees will know what they are likely to get.
d

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Cool Beans
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

I'd have refunded the money, just to be rid of patrons who sound like they're too dumb for folk music. I remember a concert in Central Park where the Rev. F.D. Kirpatrick was singing "Abraham, Martin and John" and added a verse that went "Has anybody here seen the P.L.O.?" I got up and walked out. It was a free concert (with others on the bill) but I wouldn't have asked for a refund if I'd paid; I'm all for his right to sing whatever he wants and mine not to listen. I never took F.D. Kirpatrick seriously after that but I doubt that he noticed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:39 PM

Magpie is known as a very political duo. Even when they do traditional folk music, which is the bulk of their repertoire, it often has a strong political flavor -- anti-war songs, union songs, civil rights songs, etc. In that way they are very much like Kim & Reggie Harris, with whom they often appear.

That having been said, I would ask if the publicity said anything about the fact they do political music? Not even die-hard folkies are familiar with every group, and you certainly should not expect that the general public would be.

Regardless of your answer, I would still give the two women their money back. That's because I'm old fashioned enough to believe "the customer is always right," even when she is clearly wrong. If you want to keep your club in business, the worst thing possible is to have people pissed off at you, especially in a small town. And while the women probably won't go to small claims court, they certainly will bad mouth you, and that's much worse. $40 is a small price to pay to salvage whatever good will you can. If it had to come out of your own pocket, so be it. But I think Magpie (Toni and Greg) are mature enough to have swallowed the loss themselves if they had to. They choose to sing controversial material, and that's part of the price I am sure they are willing to pay.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:40 PM

Anybody could gripe about anything, doesn't have to be political for someone to complain and walk out. They could complain about the lack of air conditioning, or the water wasn't cold, or the seats were uncomfortable, or the guitars were out of tune, or someone was singing off key. Skip the politics, they paid a donation, either give it half back, or nothing.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:43 PM

Sounds like the good will has already gone bye-bye.

$40 isn't worth the fight & strain, pick your battle more carefully & give 'em back the money, the fight will cost a lot more in the long run.

Barry

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:05 AM

Actually ... wouldn't it be GREAT FUN to see this law suit wind it's way through the american court system and wind up in the Supreme Court ... just imagine the songs that it would create! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: mg
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM

I would give them the money back, particuarly if they talked a lot about poltiics or if I had failed to make it pretty clear what kind of music it would be. There are all sorts of people I won't pay to see. There are free things, like at camps, that I sit in the back so I can easily walk out. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:24 AM

So ... if you attend a concert of folk music, is there an unwritten agreement that you must be pleased polically? bob

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:50 AM

I say screw them, it's their fault for not doing the research on the duo to see if they might like the music.

BTW what sort of folk music were they looking for? Puff the Magic Dragon?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:04 AM

Well, I'm not a US lawyer but their case looks pretty hopeless to me and I am amazed that anyone should think they have a RIGHT to have it back. You may want to bounce it by PM of InOBU or Heric who I think are qualified in the USA. My train of thought goes: -

1. You are not in business so "consumer rights" do not come into play.
2. The was no contract term or representation as to the content of the music. Indeed it sounds as if some of it mught even have been "folk" music and you all know my views on what that means.
3. There was inded no contract with you. The money was a "donation" for the artists.
4. Accordingly it seems likely to me that the money was therefore held on trust by you for the artists and it would be a breach of trust for you to give it back. If the two people wanted the money back they should have asked the beneficial owners ie the artists, and I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall.

I can think of an argument that might harm you, but I will PM it to you in case any of the opponents of free speech here might be in a position to pass it on to the objectionable departees.


I have to say I despise people like your objectors.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:11 AM

"They came to hear music, not political hate speech."
Invariably people who complain about political songs are objecting to ones which express ideas contrary to their own. Wonder if they'd have demanded their money back if the songs had been in favour of Dubya (answers on a postcard please).
What your 2 ladies are really saying is "How dare you express views that I don't agree with", in which case - sod 'em; doesn't sound as if you are going to lose two regular customers.
Politics has been a part of songmaking as long as people have been making songs - why change things to suit a couple of rednecks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:18 AM

PS,
Don't know Magpie, but it's more than a little comforting to learn that somebody in the US has the balls to speak out against what's happening there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM

Richard has summed up the legal position and it seems clear an strong. I seem to remember that we are always on the slippery slope ans the thin end of the wedge is always present but it would we very difficult to run events like this one or most other folk events if everybody was able to renegotiate the door fee half way through the evening.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:19 AM

I certainly agree with the walkers out.
I get totally pissed off with people who, on the basis of a little musical talent, feel free to impose their political ideologies on an unsuspecting audience.
Why do I go to folk clubs, and not to political meetings?
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions on that one.

JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM

Oh, they're free to walk. Just not to their money back. I hope they keep walking.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

Just wondering how these insulated punters would have reacted to a concert from "dirty folk rock" performer Jessica Delfino. I review I've just read describes her as "best known for her quirky tunes about female genitalia", but her themes also deal with becoming famous, hating everyone around and a "delightfully weird" countering of the US Catholic League.

Obviously, everything associated with living is political. Were they expecting Puff The Magic Dragon, someone asks. That too, deals with political issues important to some . . . like cruelty to mythical species and discrimination against Class C drug users.

If you"don't like" politics, don't go to arts events. Indeed, you may as well stop living.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Zen
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM

...started singing about wiping Israel off the map or praised Hitler as a hero for starting the ovens

I have booked Magpie a couple of time when I ran a club here in the UK and know their music well. I think Greg and Terry would be shocked to have their music compared with these statements.

A great deal of folk music is, was and probably always will be about anti-establishment views. I've had some customers grumble about Paul Metsers environmental stance but they could not complain that the music was not of a high standard, as is Magpies.

No, these individuals should not be given their money back for the reasons given by Rabbi-Sol. You do not get your money back if you go to a film and do not like it.

If the performance was way below par.. maybe. For content of the music, no. Otherwise we risk to lose freedom of expression.

Zen

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

Giving them their money back is admitting that what you have done in having the group was wrong - and it's putting your booking policy (and your freedom of speech) into the hands of a couple of 'good ol' girls'.
Fascinating to see what a question like this drags out of the woodwork.
Not sure whether John Mackenzie is dictating what should be performed or commenting on the standard one is valid - the other definitely isn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: topical tom
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:49 AM

Give them their money back? No way! That would create a precedent whereby ,if for any reason an audience member were dissatisfied with the performance, he or she would get their money back!!It was a folk performance by a duo who are known for political comment.For God's sake, find out about the performer(s) before you purchase a ticket!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Colin Randall
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:12 AM

Rabbi-Sol was right in principle, arguably wrong on style but not so wrong that it matters much.

You wouldn't get your money back if you walked out on finding the music itself not to your taste. Anyone going to a folk concert and expecting not to have right-wing views challenged, if views are expressed at all, clearly doesn't get out much.

Thinking back to my days as a folk club organiser, I cannot recall with certainty whether anyone ever demanded a refund. It was a long time ago.

But so early in a gig, I'd have been inclined to take the Meself approach quoted above: ie "you should have just smiled and given them their money back in the first place, and said, "Hope you enjoy the next concert a little more"."

If they'd gone on whingeing about it, that would have merited a sarcastic putdown

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Both are equally valid Jim, to clarify my comments. However the only thing any artiste changed by using one vehicle as a means of introducing another, was my good opinion of them.
I won't mention names, but there have been performers I liked, who put me right off them, by declaring support for something with which disagree.
Then again as one who thinks politics is a personal matter, and who doesn't wear his political beliefs on his sleeve. Then I guess I would say that wouldn't I?
JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

I can amuse myself imagining what Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Julie Felix, Joan Baez, or, come to that, Ewan MacColl or Bert Lloyd would have said.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

Give 'em the money back and tell them that they are no longer welcome to your house.

Anyone impolite enough to cause a fuss during an artiste's set really shouldn't be allowed back to that particular venue. Let them have their pyhrric victory, tainted by the knowledge that there will be less music for them in the future.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

I'd like to know exactly what was said or sung, so that I could guage exactly how much the walkers-out overreacted. Overly sensitive types overreact to just about anything. I wouldn't be so sure that this isn't more about intolerance.

Be that as it may, I wouldn't refund except to make them get lost, or I might refund only part of their donation or whatever. Not that they deserve it, just to keep the peace. Frankly, it might be a badge of honour to have some folks, or folks of a particular kind, walk out. I've never asked for a refund and I've walked out of shows figuring the risk was mine...buyer beware.

Next time add "no refunds" to the fine print.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

Imagine that you gave a concert at which the performers expressed strong right-wing views, and nearly the entire audience (folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals) wanted their money back. What would you do?

Whatever you decide, it should be consistent with what you would do if the sentiments expressed were elsewhere on the political spectrum, if you want to claim intellectual, as well as fiscal, honesty.

Peter

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

My initial reaction was that you should just tell them to b****r off. Then I thought, what would I do if I inadvertently went to a concert that had right-wing content? Hmmm....this free speech business has a nasty habit of turning round and biting you on the arse.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

I host house concerts and would have given them their money back just to preserve goodwill. I would also have made it clear that they had a responsibility to do their homework - it was no secret that the music would be political. Would Tom Paxton's Tinky Winky have sent them packing?

They would not be welcome back.
Mary

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM

We're back to pdq's point way up top....The old saw about whose ox is being gored hits the mark. That said, Sinsull puts it well. "Here's my goodwill gesture. Do your homework next time and don't let the door hit you in the ass."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

Could happen.

There's this BNP councillor in Yorkshire who holds fundraising barbecues in aid of his vile party. He fancies himself as a singer songwriter and regales the local fascists with pleasant ditties of how nice the English countryside would be if it weren't for all the immigrants.

But you'd have the sense not to go in the first place, still less contribute to BNP coffers, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SunrayFC
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM

In the end if you are offering ENTERTAINMENT you have to acknowledge that the audience will have a wide set of opinions.

Keep it entertaining.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

To put it another way, then:

In the end if you are suffering ENTERTAINMENT you have to acknowledge that the performers will have a wide set of opinions.


;-)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

"folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"

I'm always amused when the word "liberals" is used by the right-wing as sone kind of an insult. And then they have the arrogance to add 'knee-jerk' as if having liberal views is ill-considered instead of a deeply-felt commitment. I wonder if they'd object to being referred to as dyed in the wool authoritarians?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

It's fairly common in the classical music scene for people to storm out of concerts in indignation because they're playing That Dissonant Modern Stuff.

If those prats could get their money back and thereby disrupt the concert for free there'd be a lot more of them doing it. So they never get refunds.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: bankley
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM

ya charge $20 to get in....and $50 to leave before the end of the 1st set...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

Richard sums up the legal issues and Sinsull sums up good will.

One needs to consider both when dealing with house concert attendees who are disappointed and request their money back.

I am surprised that Magpie would trigger such a reaction. They do compose and sing some hard-hitting political songs but always deliver them in perfect harmony and impeccable instrumentation. But I do generally line up with them on their politics.

However, I do recall attending an excellent concert (with no political songs) but was somewhat shocked when in later causal conversation the singer-songwriter acknowledged voting for George W. Bush two times in a row. I certainly did not request my money back at the time but I do think about that with regard to whether I would or would not attend his next concert. If he had sung a right-wing political song, I might have walked out in protest but I certainly would not have requested my money back. I do think house concert attendees bear some responsibility for doing their homework.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

I do find the idea that we should be doing homework and research before attending a concert rather curious. I think our audiences would be even smaller if we only admitted those who have done their homework ... Maybe we should ask them to show it at the door?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Charley - that concert was hosted at Deborah Coward's home. And you would not have gotten your money back. You paid for his music and you got it. His politics in no way appeared in his performance. If you choose to boycott any music delivered by someone with different political views from yours, you will miss out on some great music.

The gentleman in question has well thought out reasons for his support of Bush. I respect his right to disagree with me. The suggestion that an artist has to not only present only material in keeping with your political views as well to vote for your candidate is outrageous.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Hear hear Mary - the only reason not to attend a concert, as far as I'm concerned, is that I either don't like that type of music or that the performer is so goddamned awful that I won't waste my time, let alone my money, supporting them. Any other reason is, IMO, ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

Since the money was 'legally' not Sol's, but belonged to the performers, I'd have offered to pass their names to Magpie....and I 'think', that if I were in Greg & Terry's position, I'd have sent them back half of it, just to make a point.
(what point? why, that they learned a valuble lesson from the time they spent there - that folk music often includes topical and protest songs, and that education is worth something....*grin*!)(you don't get a refund in college if you don't like the teacher's point of view)

I have seen Magpie several times...(back to even when there were 3 members)...and they are good folks and good musicians...but I don't go out of my way anymore, simply because I DO know what I'll hear and it's like 'preaching to the choir' for me. I don't mind topical songs, but prefer a program with a different balance for my $$$.

No obvious & simple answer to this one......