Praise Songs vs. Hymns

Subject: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: cetmst
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:13 AM

Our new church choir director brought this to her first rehearsal, didn't recall where she found it but its on Google:

A Funny Little Story About Hymns and Praise Songs, Author Unknown

A farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the farmer, "It was good. They did something different however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns."
"Praise choruses?" asked his wife, "What are those?"
"Oh, they're OK. They're sort of like hymns, only different", said the farmer.
"Well what's the difference ?" asked the wife.
The farmer said "W it's like this...If I were to say to you 'Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a hymn. If on the other hand, I were to say to you 'Martha, Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA, the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows, the white cows, the black and white cows, the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn, in the CORN, CORN, CORN, COOOOORRRRRNNNNN.'then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a praise chorus.

As luck would have it, the exact same Sunday a young, new Christian from the city church attended the small town church. He came home and is wife asked him how it was.
"Well, " said the young man, "It was very good. They did something different however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs."
"Hymns?"asked the wife, "What are those?"
"They're OK. They're sort of like regular songs, only different." said the young man.
"Well, what's the difference?"asked the wife.
The young man said, "Well, it's like this...If I were to say to you "Martha, the cows are in the corn' well that would be a regular song. If on the other hand, I were to say to you,

Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry,
Incline thine ear to the words of my mouth.
Turn thy whole wondrous ear by and by
To the righteous, glorious truth.

For the way of the animals who can explain
There in their heads is no shadow of sense.
Hearkenest not they in God's sun or his rain
Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.

Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight,
Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed,
Then goaded by minions of darkness and night
They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn chewed.

So look to that bright shining day by and by,
When all foul corruptions of earth are reborn
Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry
And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.

then if I were to do only verses one, three and four, and change keys on the last verse, well that would be a hymn.'

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:03 AM

Good one, Charles. I tend not to like either praise music (Jesus is my boyfriend songs) or traditional hymns/anthems (with organ). The religious songs I like are the ones based on Scripture, sung with piano and other instruments. I guess that means that what I like is what's the mainstream of American Catholic music nowadays.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:18 PM

there have been some dire praise songs IMO especially the shallow and misleading songs such as joe describes, but there have been some great ones too, with powerful words matched by great tunes.
there have been lots of hymns fallen by the wayside too.
I have read that story before, maybe on mudcat.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 May 15 - 05:42 PM

what I was really looking for was the thread on female guitarists, but this has some relevance here too. I was very pleased to find in HMV cd of sister rosetta tharpe...up above my head...complete blues. the blurd on the front says 22 testifying tracks of hot gospel and rocking guitar....my only slight disappointment was that there was,nt the edge on the guitar sound that I remember from the tv documentary where she performs on a british railway station. oh, and it was less than £4 !

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 15 - 08:28 PM

I have actually heard this sung at a religious service (not a Catholic one, thank God):

I love Him, I love Him, I love Him
And where He leads I'll follow, I'll follow, I'll follow
I will follow Him, follow Him wherever He may lead
There isn't an ocean too deep
Or mountain so high it can keep
Me from God's love

I must follow Him (follow Him)
Ever since He touched my life I knew
I'd serve my Lord eternally
And go anywhere that He leads
He is my destiny (destiny)

Chorus
I love Him, I love Him, I love Him
And where He leads I'll follow, I'll follow, I'll follow
He'll always be my Savior, my Savior, my Savior
From now until forever, forever, forever
I will follow Him (follow Him)
Follow Him wherever He may lead
There isn't an ocean too deep
Or mountain so high it can keep
Keep me away, away from God's love
(repeat chorus)

I will follow Him (follow Him)
Follow Him wherever He may lead
There isn't an ocean too deep
Or mountain so high it can keep
Keep me away, away from God's love
...and where He leads I'll follow, I'll follow, I'll follow
I know I'll always love Him, I love Him, I love Him
(repeat and fade)

The perfect "Jesus Is my Boyfriend" song (term I learned from a friend - she's pastor of a local Lutheran church).

Yuck!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 18 May 15 - 12:47 AM

Several years back I picked up a piece of scrap paper in the office of the church where my craft group met. It was from a book of songs for kids & was definitely yuck & had songs with lines like 'high kick for jesus' & similar cool stuff. Maybe an adult's idea of what is cool? Do young kids still do cool stuff? I know nothing about kids language.

Anyway, I was just trying to locate the book or a similar one but all I could find was sites that had "proper" hymns/songs, or cool modern stuff.

I did manage to find a reference to (quote) cool songs that "Kick It For Jesus," (end quote) in a church's soccer program!

I wish I still had that piece of paper but I cut it up for a craft project.

sandra

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: BobL
Date: 18 May 15 - 03:31 AM

I've always regarded the distinction between Hymns and Worship Songs as a false dichotomy, because a worship song is, by definition, a hymn. Neither do I see any fundamental difference between contemporary hymns and traditional ones: today's style may be "now" but will soon be history, while "tradition" is built on layers added to by each succeeding generation including our own.

There's really only one thing that sets contemporary hymns apart, but it always has done in every age, and it's unavoidable. Essentially, most of what's written is rubbish (Sturgeon's Revelation), most of the rest is mediocre, only a tiny fraction being really good. The rubbish soon gets consigned to the dustbin of history, within a generation say (things happen slowly in a church whose sights are set on eternity), the mediocre lasts long enough to become old-fashioned before going the same way, while the good stuff survives as Old Favourites.

The only distinctive thing about today's hymns is that they have yet to go through this filtering process, and the rubbish is still with us.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 May 15 - 04:03 AM

When you walk into a church you are not familiar with (maybe you are visiting the area, maybe you don't usually attend church) what you get is a book or a sheet with the words, or even see the words on an overhead projector screen. Very few hymn books these days have a melody line edition, and if they do the churches can't afford them. And when you have a projector you never get the music. And maybe you don't read the music anyway. And you don't know the hymn. Can you join in? Thats what I think that people who choose hymns should think about, can somebody who doesn't know the hymn and doesn't have the music pick it up and sing it. Too many modern songs have an unpredictable tempo which make this impossible. Some are OK, most of Graham Kendrick's for example, because I think he understands the structure of a hymn. But too many are completely impossible.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 15 - 04:11 AM

Hi, Bob - I guess I'd describe "worship songs" as hymns that are oriented toward people who like pop music. They tend to have "commercial" arrangements and instrumentation, and require amplification. Oftentimes, they are intended to appeal to teenagers. And oftentimes, I like them, especially if the lyrics give me something to think about.

"Praise songs" are the ones that draw criticism. They are usually single phrases repeated over and over again. And over and over again. And over and over again, often accompanied by the waving of hands. They can be fun to sing and can make people feel good, but the lyrics rarely make people think. Sometimes, it seems that the lyrics are intentionally insipid, but that might be unfair criticism on my part. And again, the instrumentation and arrangements are always commercial and always amplified.

I have to say that I really like the songs that come from the Taizé community in Northern France, mostly written by Jacques Berthier. Again, they are single phrases sung over and over, but they are always acoustic (sometimes a cappella) and don't require accompaniment by a rock band. They give ordinary people a chance to sing in harmony.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: bbc
Date: 18 May 15 - 10:34 AM

I like a mix of hymns & praise songs. I just left a church because all they are doing is (lyrics only) praise songs, on a screen. If I don't know the song, I'm left behind & it's difficult to sing harmony. The young folks in that church will grow up singing only simplistic, repetitive, emotion-based music. I have some problems w/ "worship teams" too. Although they seem to be having a good time, I think, sometimes, they make the other folks feel disincluded. I am, now, worshipping in a church which uses chorus book & hymnal & has a traditional choir, of which I'm a part!

bbc

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 May 15 - 11:58 AM

The that starts all this is a good example of a specious argument form that I have named "Opposite Extreme." Here is a simple example of Opposite Extreme:

Bill:   I sure wish it would quit raining. We'll have a flood.
Bob: What do you want, a drought?

In the story, the unknown author uses two extreme examples, a particularly brainless praise song and a particularly overwrought Victorian hymn. Both songs are silly.

The author's point, really, is "I'm smarter than the people who wrote these." But he isn't really smarter, he's just using Opposite Extreme.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 May 15 - 01:15 PM

The music is irrelevant in a sense, except that different music suits different folks.   Music in church has usually been of the period , I presume, so there is no reason why rock should be excluded.   However, I don't think that in a multi age church it should be exclusively rock or pop. What does matter, IMO, is thoughtful and biblical lyrics, preferably with a bit of poetic and doctrinal content.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: CupOfTea
Date: 18 May 15 - 05:59 PM

Joe - I love the "jesus is my boyfriend songs" term - most apt. The song you quote comes from the movie "Sister Act" where Whoopi Goldberg is a Vegas showgirl hiding out pretending to be a nun - so she's showbizzed up her choir & that pop parody was the result. Loved it in the movie, but would NOT care to have it as any part of an actual worship service. I can do ya one weirder: "Jesus is my stalker" song called "In the Secret." First time I heard it I refused to have anything to do with it in worship. I'd long been aware of the term used for childhood sexual abuse victims being called "children of the secret." and that's what kept running through my head.

I had a difficult time sorting out the difference between contemporary religious songs and praise songs when I first encountered the latter. It was only in the context of having someone point out the scriptural basis of the hymns I that I find moving IS the reason I respond that way. They've got some meat on their bones, theologically. So to me, praise songs are those with no scriptural content. I will admit to enjoying singing a few of 'em.

I think Joe had a sharp point in calling them "commercial" and mentioning the appeal to teenagers. You tend to hear 'em on Christian radio stations like "the Fish" (or whatever they call it in your area) I see this as the house music of megachurches - the non-denominational churches with no liturgical year or larger affiliation - with rock band backup. It's church pop music for those who want a pop religion - let's feel good and do good stuff! pfaugh. Yet established churches, who often don't look beyond a hymnal full of 4 of the last 5 centuries, are loosing congregants to these same megachurches.

There are some contemporary songs/hymns that do resonate well for me. It seems that in the larger context of a good sized Episcopalian diocese, I'm in a peculiar parish. We've run the contemporary song/ traditional hymn dichotomy 'round and round over the last few decades in our parish, and what has come out of it is a mix of the two, all the time. The music we tend to use usually has a specific scriptural basis, or a liturgical function. As we've started looking beyond our walls, and in acquiring an international congregation we've incorporated "world music" to great effect. We've branched out into spirituals and gospel at times -using the "Lift Every Voice" African-American flavored hymnal often.

Just as with gospel-spiritual-hymn it's a continuum, I think praise songs are on that same continuum (just on the very shallow end).

Joanne in Cleveland (who's playing in a world music Evensong service this Wednesday)

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 May 15 - 04:27 AM

Pete, I don't think that the music is irrelevant, its very relevant if you are trying to sing it. You are hardly likely to take anything out of the lyrics if you are struggling to keep up with a changing tempo. Traditional hymns are written to a quite precise metre (lots of Common Metre or Long Metre hymns in hymn books). Many modern hymn writers write to this structure, some do not write music at all, they write contemporary meaningful words to existing hymn tunes. This is of course part of a long tradition, Charles Wesley never wrote a note of music as far as I know.

Others have taken traditional hymn lyrics, and try to set them to more lively music, this has mixed success, there was a group called the Church Light Music group in the 1950s which published a book of such hymns in 1960, some of these have taken hold.

And then some write words and music, those I am most familiar with are Graham Kendrick, whose hymns I mostly find easy to sing, and Townend and Getty, less so. For instance "In Christ Alone" is fine when you know it, and has uplifting lyrics, but the change in tempo between first and second line always seems to catch people out. At least with this one you have the chance to get it right in the second and subsequent verses. Bernadette Farrell's hymns are usually quite easy to pick up. "Shout to the Lord" by Darlene Zschech is very hard, there is a complete change of tempo between the verse and the chorus, then it ends.

Some people don't like Sydney Carter, I do. Ok, Lord of the Dance is a bit trite, and is ruined a bit by the association with Flatley, but most of his songs, whether hymns of folk, make you think.

But I think when people say "Praise songs" above, this is something else, these are things without either musical or lyrical structure. You get a few of these in Mission Praise, and I would run a mile from any church which used them.

All of this by the way is written from a UK perspective, those elsewhere may not know of these examples.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:36 AM

I had to play guitar for the Luther League when I was in high school. We had folk services that included bad re-writes of things like Blowin' in the Wind (the answer my friend is living in all men). They also didn't like me finger picking. It sort of set me against newer, pop based songs. I like the old hymn tunes. Don't agree with the theology, so I'm not Lutheran anymore. Give me Dave Carter's Mother I Climbed, which he said goes beyond faith in to acceptance. I would also direct you to a youtube video of Billy Connolly explaining why christians shouldn't play rock and roll. But that's not for the feint of heart, so I won't put in a link.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:02 AM

Dave, "In Christ Alone" is one song that give me fits. Musically, I really like the song. Theologically, I like verses 1, 3, and 4. But verse 2 really sucks ("really sucks" is a theological term). Verse 2 says, "Till on the cross as Jesus died / The wrath of God was satisfied." The Presbyterians wanted to change that line to "Till on that cross as Jesus died/the love of God was magnified." The songwriters refused, so the Presbyterians did not include the song in their hymnal (click). The Catholic OCP (Oregon Catholic Press) Publications, owned by the Catholic Diocese of Portland, included the song in their hymnals with the promise that all songs were vetted by Catholic theologians to ensure that their content was consistent with Catholic teaching.

Well, this idea of satisfying a wrathful God is certainly not consistent with the theology I was taught in a Catholic seminary, so I wrote to Oregon Catholic Press and complained. Their response sure as heck didn't satisfy me. They quoted some obscure, 14th century Italian theologian. I didn't buy it. I like the song, but I mumble through the second verse. Since I have the strongest voice in the congregation, I make my point...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: clueless don
Date: 19 May 15 - 08:25 AM

This may be off-topic, but this thread is reminding me of a thread awhile back, the topic of which was "What is your favorite hymn?" After several replies, the person who started the thread indicated that Christmas Carols did not qualify. I remember being puzzled, i.e. in what sense is a Christmas Carol not a hymn?

Don

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 May 15 - 03:46 PM

I don't know what they taught you in seminary joe, but I suspect you know that propitiation is a scriptural teaching , regardless of whether it sits comfortably with us or not. it is in fact one of the things I appreciate about " in Christ alone ". actually the "love of God is magnified " is very apt because the wrath of God is satisfied, so that the wonder of a God offering peace and reconciliation with sinners is indeed magnified. I am encouraged that the catholic theologians stand by the song as it is. I am glad too, that the songwriters put conviction before royalties.
in my experience dave, there are some modern songs that are hard to follow, though not the ones you cite. I have also heard old hymns that are so dreary and tuneless that I can't follow them. I like the sound of the variation and colour in joanne's church music..

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 May 15 - 04:08 PM

Pete, yes some hymns are dreary, though in my experience not the very old ones, there are some great hymns and tunes in Piae Cantiones for example. Later, some folk songs were adapted as Hymn tunes, obviously by Vaughan Williams, but also others. And there are some great Welsh hymns of the 19th century. But there are also some dull ones, that true, the 1880s seemed to be the worst. But they are largely singable by someone who doesn't know them.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 15 - 04:25 PM

Well, Pete, the thinking behind the idea of Christ's death satisfying the wrath of God is a rather extreme understanding of Substitutionary Atonement, which is a theological concept common in a number of Protestant denominations. It is definitely not part of the mainstream of Catholic theology, and I expect that a publisher owned by a Catholic diocese should stick closer to the Catholic mainstream.

Yeah, we studied the Jonathan Edwards sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God in seminary - and we were taught that while it was a literary masterpiece, it was definitely not consistent with Catholic theology.

To Catholics, Christ's death is a demonstration of the love of God, not satisfaction of God's wrath. We tend to stick closer to the nine Scripture passages that describe God as "slow to anger" and abounding in loving kindness.


According to Wikipedia, the Celebrationg Grace Baptist hymnal published the song as "Till on that cross as Jesus died the love of God was magnified," but the songwriters did not give permission for the Presbyterians to use similar language in the song in their hymnal.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 May 15 - 04:28 PM

the welsh one I like very much is " here is love, vast as the ocean ".
poetry and doctrine......" heavens love and perfect justice
                           kissed a guilty world in love"

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: JennieG
Date: 19 May 15 - 05:00 PM

I thought I remembered "Martha and the cows"......it was in a previous thread.

Previous thread

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 May 15 - 05:09 PM

I guess , joe, that the definition of extreme, is pertaining to that which goes beyond which we think is acceptable. I wonder, if you are looking at this as a bible scholar, or only as a mainstream [ ?] catholic. what, I wonder is, is your [ or mainstream catholic ] take/interpretation of the biblical word ...propitiation...gk, hilesterion [ I think !].
interesting that according to wiki, the adaption was allowed in one book , though I noticed there was a disclaimer for accuracy.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:59 PM

Pete, my understanding is that the Baptists assumed they had permission to change the line in the song.

The idea of propitiation has of course been discussed by Catholic theologians, but the emphasis is quite different from that of conservative Christianity. And "wrath of God" is not part of the Catholic vocabulary.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 20 May 15 - 03:32 AM

Stuart Townend of course is very much from the conservative evangelical tradition, and maybe you need to look at his lyrics in that context.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 15 - 05:17 AM

Agreed, Dave - which is why I think it improper to publish Townend's song unchanged in a Roman Catholic hymnal. I won't disagree with his song within the context of conservative evangelical tradition; but we have our own tradition to preserve, especially when we choose songs that are supposed to appeal to teenagers. I think that Catholic music publishers have abandoned their own valuable tradition in an attempt to win teens back who have gone to the megachurches for more appealing music. Granted, the Catholic approach to theology is more difficult to explain - but that doesn't mean we should abandon it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 20 May 15 - 06:30 AM

Some Roman Catholic people clearly like him, I have just seen he is leading an ecumenical Pentecost Celebration at the RC Church in Bromborough next Friday.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 May 15 - 12:35 PM

I can go with different emphasis, joe. Unless, like Dodd, from your useful link, the word is changed by catholic theologians to the more tame word ...expiation.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 May 15 - 09:01 AM

Sandra, what you really want is "Drop Kick Me, Jesus, Through the Goalposts of Life", isn't it?

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 May 15 - 11:59 AM

Joe, thank you for that post about "In Christ Alone". I first met it in full (I think I had heard it on "Songs of Praise", minus V2) at the funeral of a recent pupil, who had died, aged 11, in a road accident. I like the tune. I liked verse one. I liked being able to sing out, which I miss at Friends. And then I spotted what lay ahead. So what had been quite a loud contribution suddenly fell silent. Nothing could have been less appropriate in that context.

I've seen a lot of debate on another site with a religious theme about it, and there no-one seems to like it. Nor do they know that revision had been prevented.

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 May 15 - 12:06 PM

I had a colleague who went to a fellowship church derived from a house church and I was astonished to find that every year they went to some gathering where a new set of worship songs was issued, and the previous year's were cast aside. Now I may have an opinion about many of the worship songs I have come across that leads me to suppose losing them might be appropriate, but not filtering out the good before doing it seemed very odd.

Penny

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 May 15 - 04:29 PM

"In Christ Alone", as lovely as it sounds, always reminds me a bit of "Bye, Bye, Miss American Pie"--this verse particularly:

Oh, and as I watched him on the stage
My hands were clenched in fists of rage
No angel born in Hell
Could break that Satan's spell--

Subject: RE: Praise Songs vs. Hymns
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:23 AM

Many years ago, someone pointed me to the songs of Mrs. C.H. Morris

To me, most her songs are particularly 'singable' (no matter what one feels about the message)... and some are hard to sit still to- one feels the need to get up and march. such as The Fight is On (read the words & play the midi provided)
or this one
Enlisted for Life...

As a non-religious guy, I can relate to the feelings expressed in Mrs. Morris' metaphors and appreciate her sincerity in ways that I never find in the chokingly cloying 'praise' songs used in many TV evangelist programs, where over-done sets and sanctimonious testifying lead to pleas for money.