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Who is packing heat this Xmas?
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:36 PM Les - The roots of gun ownership in America is solidly tied to our fight with England for our independance. I'm glad you are enjoying this! It is always with disbelief that I read posts from places that cannot own firearms. How odd for me! I've not met you - so Merry Christmas to you and yours also! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Les b (U.K.) Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM Norton1 I find your reasoning for gun ownership strange, as I always assumed that in the said fight both sides had guns, which should mean that we all have guns over here! From my viewpoint I still can't understand why anybody would want to own a gun. Different cultures I suppose. Cool Yule Les |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:51 PM To quote Ian McKellen, in Xmen... "You homo sapiens and your guns..." |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:57 PM Well, I've had a pheasant hunter fire a gun from behind me and just to the left of my left shoulder, aiming for a bird that was in the road just ahead of me.
And I've had people hunting groundhogs for sport, shooting right through my yard when I had a small child and a dog in the vicinity.
And another time some hunters actually did shoot my dog. I don't know about concealed weapons, but I sure as hell think people who use guns for sport need more legally required training in how to use them responsibly. I think I'll go over and post this to the other thread. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: DougR Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:13 PM LEJ: could you hang some christmas lights that blink on and off on that little holster? That would make it even more festive! DougR |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Midchuck Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:13 PM How come when car or truck drivers act like idiots or maniacs, it's the driver's fault, but when hunters, or people out shooting in general, act like idiots or maniacs (and I'm the first to agree that many of them do), it's the gun's fault? I, personally, have done a good number of stupid and/or dangerous things with a car in my life (mostly when I was younger, but I'll probably start again as I approach senility), but few, if any, with a gun - and I do like to shoot. But people want to take my guns away and leave me with my car. It don't make no sense. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:15 PM I'm all in favor of more intensive training for people who want driver's licenses as well. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: artbrooks Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:27 PM Les B: The 2nd amendment to the US Constitution states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This dates to 1791. Many Americans, including many of our elected leaders, choose to ignore the first two clauses and interpret it as meaning that citizens have an unfettered right to keep and bear arms. Others insist that this is only true in the context of membership in a militia organization {or the National Guard, successor organization to the local militias} and therefore may no longer be valid. Not even the Swiss require their part-time soldiers to keep their weapons at home anymore. Parties on both sides have, through the years, been very careful not to bring this question up through the levels of our legal system for a definitive determination. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Jane 2001 Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:40 PM Another comment from Britain. Some of the arguments here are amazing. "It's people who have never handled guns who bad-mouth people who do." Well yes, otherwise we'd call them hypocrites wouldn't we? "Cars, guns, axes even combs can kill." Yes, but not from across the street, and not whole rooms full of people. And to the Brit who is in favour of nice people belonging to gun clubs, the Dunblane kiddies were massacred by just such a nice club member. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: PeteBoom Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:44 PM I do not own a firearm. Never have. I've considered getting one for sporting purposes. I have not had time to get what I considered proper training. Thus, I have not bothered taking the required exam (where the clerk asks if I will be paying cash or credit). I have had people point a hand gun at me, twice. While working as a college kid at a fast food resturaunt (is that a contradiction?). Was I scared - a bit - till I realized neither had the safety off and their finger was not on the trigger. One time we just handed the guy the money in the till. He walked out. We called the cops and told him who had robbed us and where he lived. He was an employee's younger brother. (Not smarter, younger.) I tend to have sharp pointed things about, that I know exactly where they are, and have the confidence in my own ability to use them. Does that make me a knife/axe/sword nut? Ah well.... Pete |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:56 PM artbrooks, you make some good points. I find the M-79 a bit bulky for shopping, especially if you want to brandish your weapon while looking for a parking space. The UZI is small in appearance, which is why I like to fire a quick demonstration salvo into the Gap before entering, just to soften up the room. And sure, grapeshot or canister can be devastating in the confines of an intimate family gathering, but sometimes tends to do excessive damage to the decorations. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Gary T Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM Come now, artbrooks, people don't ignore the opening clause of the second amendment, they just interpret as intended at the time it was written. (Well regulated=effective; militia=every capable citizen.) |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM Artbrooks, you are taking this back into the realm of serious talk, probably not a good idea... At any rate, let me point out that there are many restrictive gun laws in our country--the big cities, such as NYC and Washington DC have laws that are easily as restrictive as the British Laws, and most states are fairly restrictive as well. It is a gross misrepresentation to say that citizens have an unfettered right to keep and bear arms-- I find it interesting that people are very concerned about gun related deaths, but have little to say, particularly in a political way, about vehicular deaths, which account for many, many times more deaths--
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:12 PM I'm just gonna bite my tongue here. The UK has its policy and we have ours - |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM This is about as likely to produce any sort of consensus as a discussion of abortion "rights." I'll have to throw my hat in the ring with kendall, Big Mick, ddw, etc. Never shot anyone yet and hope I never have cause to.Had to laugh last year when Michigan passed a "right to carry law." Heard someone say, "This is terrible, now people can carry guns anywhere." Wanted to tell them, guess what...they can, and have anyway. If all firearms magically disappeared and were then outlawed everywhere in the world, there'd be people building them in basements and garages and caves all over the world. Once the technology and knowhow are there, there's no stopping it. If you choose to be firearms-free, so be it. Increased numbers of firearms laws and restricted gun ownership has only had an impact on law-abiding citizens. It's far more difficult to go through legal channels in most of the United States to buy a gun than it is to purchase one illegally. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Randy Littleton Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:25 PM I just wanted to thank every one on this site for the knowledge I have gained by visiting and reading your comments. I would like to add my two cents here by saying that, IF a trained and competent School Teacher wants to carry, they should not not only be allowed but also encouraged to do so, only my two cents, but thats my opinion, again thanks for sharing the knowledge. Randy Littleton If your interested, these are my photos during a breaking and sighting in of a Blaser R-93. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=274270&a=11297593 |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Bill D Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:45 PM I don't know what the average person in Idaho or Wyoming thinks they NEED a gun for...but maybe they have better attitudes about it than many here in the big cities of the eastern USA, where 14 yr. old kids have been recorded in interviews as saying that it is just 'easier' to shoot someone if they 'mess' with you. No, I am not often near those neighborhoods, but if I were, HAVING a gun would not do me much good. I suppose if I were in Wyoming...I might own something, but not here!...and what about a mid-sized city in Kansas? There sure seems to be a wide difference of opinion, depending on where you live and certain .....ummmmm....well, just certain basic attitudes. Let's face it...SOME folks just like guns, no matter WHAT reason, statistics and the law say. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:46 PM OK, let's just have a free for all on the same old same old. Abortion! Guns! Proselytization! Ireland! Nazi's! Antisemitism! Sexism! Violent Teens! Bad parents! PERNENNIAL, UBIQUITOUS, IRRECONCILABLE VICTIMS OF EVERYTHING! Censorship! The press! Affirmative action! RIGHTS, RIGHTS, RIGHTS!!!!!!! Controlling people.... Hoo-ee!! Nothing good going on to focus on, let's have at it! Wallow! Roll around in it! Spread as much of it as possible, as far as you can!!! Merry Christmas. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,manitas at home Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:19 PM Funnily enough, the real problem in the UK is knives. You can get them easily anywhere 'tho shops aren't supposed to sell them to minors. I'm beginning to wonder if I should keep the knives I have (multi-purpose for box repair jobs, m'lud) more handy or go back to carrying a music stand (bloody heavy when handled right) or perhaps a walking stick. I was going to make a quip about packing Deep Heat but the discussions got too serious for that. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Steve Latimer Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:43 PM You know, once again, I'm damned proud to be a Canadian where I'm protected by laws that won't allow the vast majority of us to own weapons that are designed only for killing. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Jon Freeman Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:55 PM Just a couple of thoughts from this UK person (who has handled and shot a couple of hand guns and rifles but found it boring)... I'm always puzzled by the firearms to protect your property - to the best of my knowledge, most robbers over here are not armed. It seems to me that if everyone had guns to protect thier property, more robbers would carry guns to protect themselves from being shot... Seems like a bit of a pointless viscious circle to me and one that is only likely to lead to needless deaths on both sides. Besides that, on a personal level, everything I own is insured and can be replaced - well nearly everything - some items have a sentimental value which is important but still rather less in my value scales than a human life. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:56 PM Hey SteveL, just wondering. BigDaddy said if guns were banned, people would be building them in garages...are most of you Canadians fabricating handguns on your workbenches? |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Steve Latimer Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:11 PM LEJ, I've lived all 42 years of my life in Canada. I've never seen a handgun other than the ones that the Police carry. Yes, they're out there, but handguns in Canada are owned by two groups, outlaws, with whom I don't associate, and the police that we pay to keep them in line. I don't live in the fear that one of my children will accidently kill themself or their sibling with the "family Gun". I trust the police to keep me safe. I know of nobody fabricating guns on their workbench. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:19 PM I guess another myth bites the dust. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM What is proselytization? |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Big John Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:29 PM Those who shout loudest in defence of your right to bear arms are the politicians who are in the pockets of the arms manufacturing parasites. These guys run a multi billion dollar industry and will pay well to be allowed to remain in business. Your constituional amendment was written at a time when it was necessary for the general public to bear arms in defence of your nation. It is now obselete and your constitution should be brought into the 21st century. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Greg F. Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:17 PM Its the bubbas, rednecks & conservative politicians who need to be brought into the 20th century, never mind the 21st. And Stanley knives are now recognised terrorist paraphernalia, so don't be caught with one lest you be hauled in front of a military tribunal... Greg |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:18 PM I think it's about time to put a bullet in the head of this sorry-ass thread. I've enjoyed all I can stand. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:27 PM The Constitutional arguments regarding all of the Bill of Rights are completely tied to interpretations of the document in regards to the time it was written and whether or not that stricture should be considered. Take any of the amendments and you'll find people on one side of the issue using the "times" argument IF it suits their purpose. What I find most interesting is that the same person may argue it as being relevant on one and not relevant on another. In the final analysis the Constitution is interpreted by politics and money......and that's just the simple fact. Arguing the "right" of any Right under that condition is an exercise in futility at best and more like mental masturbation. Spaw Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:06 PM John, "proselytization" is where one a**hole tries to get another a**hole to quit being the kind of a**hole they already are... and tries to get them to be the same kind of a**hole they are, for vaguely stated reasons based on that particular form of a**holism... and in such a fashion that all that is glorified is how much of an a**hole they (both) are. IMO. Thanks for asking! Love ya! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: ddw Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:16 PM LEJ, Bit of a logical jump there, eh? Big Daddy said: "If all firearms magically disappeared and were then outlawed everywhere in the world, there'd be people building them in basements and garages and caves all over the world." How do you get from that to "are most of you Canadians fabricating handguns on your workbenches?" Nobody said anything about "most people," only that people, implying "some people" would build them in their basements and garages. Seems like a reasonable statement to me. I know quite a few people with the tools and technical knowhow (I live in an automotive city) to make pretty sophisticated weapons and, if they weren't available from any other source, you can bet somebody would be running a cottage industry making them. That said, I might also point out that it's not even that difficult to make an effective weapon. Ever seen a zip-gun? For our Brit friends trying to get their heads around this debate, I would also not that until the 1970s virtually every male American was drafted into the military for a few years and received weapons training of some kind. I'm pretty convinced that that lack of training after the draft was ended is responsible for a lot of the accidental shootings that everybody decries and a more cavalier attitude toward what a handgun can do. Add to that the "training" kids get from video games (kill, kill, kill, kill) and you get a Columbine High mentality. That alone is enough to make me want to carry a weapon in a lot of places..... cheers, david
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Big Mick Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:22 PM Sorry, Greg F, but you have it all wrong. I am a left wing union organizer. My politics in most every area are very much on the left side of the political spectrum. I was also the State Director of the Gore Campaign in the last Presidential election. I am not a Bubba, or a conservative. And I own guns. And I am VERY well trained. I shoot them for fun as well. Get your facts straight folks. If you look at the relationship between violent crime and gun laws, you will find that in states where the gun laws are very strict, they have a much higher violent crime rate. Where the laws are less strict and law abiding citizens have the right to carry, the violent crime rate is much lower. But this really comes down to this. Law abiding citizens have had a right to keep and bear arms of all sorts in this country since its inception. In order to take away that right from law abiding citizens, one should be able to produce factual information/data to support the reason it should be taken away. No one has done that yet. It is all emotion and no logic. Instead of telling us your opinions on our right to bear arms, why don't you try giving me substantiated fact as to what you think the gain is. Let us debate facts instead of your emotional opinions. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Midchuck Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:42 PM I'm damned proud to be a Canadian where I'm protected by laws that won't allow the vast majority of us to own weapons that are designed only for killing. Then...if I've fired off thousands of rounds over a lifetime, and never killed anything that I know of...I must be missing the whole point?!? Oh, damn, damn, damn..... Peter |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:49 PM
You can take my gun
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: katlaughing Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:58 PM Mick said, If you look at the relationship between violent crime and gun laws, you will find that in states where the gun laws are very strict, they have a much higher violent crime rate. Where the laws are less strict and law abiding citizens have the right to carry, the violent crime rate is much lower. I am not saying this is fact, because I don't know, but it could be because the states with stricter gun laws have many times more people in them, so the percentages get skewed. For instance, we have less than 500,000 people in the whole state of Wyoming, that's about 90,000 square miles. Seems to me we'd be bound to have a lower violent crime rate just because there aren;t as many of us. kat
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Big Mick Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:01 AM Pretty good observation, kat. My understanding of this statistic is that it is a rate per 1000 of population. I will dig it up and post. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM Now, if we can just get a volunteer to go un-wrap gargoyle's cold dead fingers, I think we got us a free gun! |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: ddw Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:15 AM Doesn't somebody have to go make him cold and dead first? Geeez! We could be tied up on this for days! |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:19 AM AAAAaaaaah GEEEEEEZ!!! Here we go AGAIN!!?? Merry Quanza, everybody! (Maybe next time...) };^{)~ UJ in ME, USA |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 20 Dec 01 - 01:36 AM Point worth considering for our British and Canadian friends: Private ownership of firearms in what is now the US has been a fact of life even longer than it has been a right on this part of the North American continent. We're talking centuries at this point. This in and of itself doesn't make it right or wrong, but may help explain why those of us who peacefully and responsibly exercise that right are reticent to give it up. In many, if not most states, we law-abiding citizens have to (figuratively speaking) jump through a number of legislated hoops in order to purchase and oftimes register firearms. Criminals aren't bothered with such annoyances. An interesting aside; I have been researchng my own family history for most of my life. I can account for each branch of my family back to around 1650 at this point. Each branch of this family tree has consistently owned and used firearms. Usually for hunting. Frequently for self-defense. Many times in war (including the American Revolution, American Civil War (both sides), Spanish-American War, WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the middle east, etc.). There has not been a single case of death or injury caused accidentally through misuse. There has been no random violence involving guns. On both sides of my family, guns have been treated as valuable, potentially lethal tools. We don't carry them to church, school, daycare, bars, etc. Much was said following the Columbine school tragedy about how we needed to not allow guns in schools. Many were surprised to learn such laws were already on the books. The real weirdness of that story was that the perpetrators' parents hadn't noticed or dealt with their sons' activities, many of which were carried out at home. Guns and bombs and certain videos in your kid's room should be a clue that all is not well. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: fox4zero Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:26 AM I own about a dozen handguns and have a full-carry permit for these. Most are target or hunting weapons from .22 RF to .44 magnum. The only times I carried a loaded handgun was during my 3-year tour as a flight surgeon in Alaska during the territory days. I believe that carrying a handgun is looking for trouble.I have been held up once,leaving my office at night. It was a young couple in a car with a .25 auto and bandanas over the lower 1/2 of their faces. I suggested that they "beat it" (adrenaline talking) and they did. I was a little shaken and carried a .38 S&W for a week afterwards, to and from work. After a week I was my old self again (very depresssing!)and put the gun back in the gun vault. I thank God that I was not carrying that night!!! I would not like to see the contents of that boys head splattered all over the inside of the car, every night before I fell asleep for the rest of my life. Early on, someone suggested a handgun as a self-defense home weapon for an inexperienced woman. I think that a .410 pump is a far better choice....less flinching in target practice, better odds for a lethal or non-lethal hit and limited bullet travel through walls etc. Lighten up Mudcatters. Make love, not war. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Bo Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:18 AM In an effort to sum up this discussion: I demand the right to carry IRELAND. I know Ireland is a sore subject with people as is gun control but I think if I'm responsible and dont Euthanize anyone I should be allowed to pack Ireland. Of course I would be willing to get the necessary permits. My reasons: 1. Its a lot smaller than the country I live in, Canada. 2. It would allow me to pack all the peat I personally need. 3. For my tastes it would make MP3s obsolete 4. Its full of little people. 5. I would make myself available to come over to all mudcaters for christmas and share. You supply the munchies and I'll bring Ireland. BO ;) |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Paul Date: 20 Dec 01 - 06:20 AM Mick said: Instead of telling us your opinions on our right to bear arms, why don't you try giving me substantiated fact as to what you think the gain is. Let us debate facts instead of your emotional opinions. See this article Paul |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 20 Dec 01 - 06:50 AM Thanks Susan! |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve) Date: 20 Dec 01 - 07:27 AM Big Mick wrote: "I am a left wing union organizer. My politics in most every area are very much on the left side of the political spectrum. I was also the State Director of the Gore Campaign in the last Presidential election. I am not a Bubba, or a conservative. And I own guns. And I am VERY well trained. I shoot them for fun as well." If you examine the left-right political continuum, you will find that Al Gore is a centrist on some issues and somewhat to the right of center on most others. What is considered "liberal" in the USA, is usually on the right wing side of the fence in almost all other industrialized democracies. Look north to Canada or across the pond to Great Britain, for example, and you will see that such policies as socialized medicine for everyone, considered far left in the USA, is an inviolable right. Canada's far right party, the Canadian Alliance, wouldn't dream of proposing the kind of right wing welfare laws passed by the Clinton-Gore administration. Big Mick, I'm sure you a sincere individual. However, based on what you've written in this discussion, I can see nothing leftist about your politics.
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: PeteBoom Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:01 AM Actually, Mick is so leftist that I appear to be a center-right leaning individual. Regards - Pete |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM Mick- I don't believe I called YOU a bubba or a conservative or for that matter brought you personally into my comment at all. Be nice if you'd return the favor. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Steve Latimer Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:26 AM Well, I'm sorry that I allowed myself into this thread as it was obviously started to get the sort of reaction that it has. I had vowed to stay away from this sort of thread, so I'm out. Let's turn our thoughts to the things that should be most important to us at this time of year. |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Big Mick Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:53 AM Lighten up, Greg. Your age is showing. You made what is known as a gratuitous assertion. I demonstrated in my response that your assertion is false. Standard debate tactic. I am being neither nice, nor am I being not nice. I am simply responding to your assertion. Whether you remain nice or not means nothing to me in the context of the discussion. The trouble with the boy wonder's observation is that he attempts to categorize my politics on the basis of this discussion. My guess is that because he lacks the ability to adequately defend his positions using facts, figures and cogent arguments, he then falls back to ridicule or the type of comment he made. It's like this, wonderboy. My politics are way left of center in most areas. Environmentally, womens rights, labor law, trade law, Indigenous peoples rights, universal health insurance.........these are all issues that I have worked on the left side of the spectrum all my life. I would agree with you that Gore's positions on many issues is very centrist. But I am a pragmatic leftist. I know that the Tom Harkins of the world can't be elected. And so I choose the most electable candidate from my side of the spectrum. PAUL, great article!! And I will respond when I have more time. I just popped in for a quick morning check in. I did a fast read of it and found it to be well researched. But I don't know if I buy into the predicate upon which they base several of their arguments. I will respond in a day or so. I wonder if you could tell me the organization or person that authored it. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas? From: Midchuck Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:55 AM Let's turn our thoughts to the things that should be most important to us at this time of year. Yes! Yes! Like what we're gittin' for Christmas! I still want a collapsed-antimatter-BB gun! Peter. |
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