BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany

Subject: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:03 PM

I wanted to write this since long and there is no special reason why I do it today instead of last year or next week. I start and I end with facts, but the middle part is a personal account that may not be true for other West-Germans of my generation. Younger Germans (Mudguard) will not have made similar experiences at all and Germans of my generation (Susanne) may not have encountered that type of language I shall describe.

Where did all the Nazis go after the war? It looks at the first glance that immediately after the war all the Nazis were sentenced (and some of them executed) by the Allies and the remaining 99+% of the Germans were innocent or deluded. The allied courts gave the remaining Germans the feeling/excuse that all culprits had been sentenced and that it was not Germany’s business to deal with its past.

As early as 48, the interest of the Western Allies, in particular the USA, was no longer a denazification campaign but the new threat from the East. Germans could now quite easily get the ‘Persilschein’ (a word which is now unknown). Persil was the most popular washing powder then (slogan: Persil washes as white that there is no whiter white) and a good translation would be (assuming that Dash is a washing powder known to you) the “Dash certificate”. That’s how the US certificate that the holder was not involved in Nazi crimes became known in German. In 1948, everyone was busy getting the Persilschein that washed the brown past into an immaculate white. It was easy to get that certificate then (a bit of lying or bribing did help) and so it was official that nearly all remaining Germans were without any personal guilt.

--------------------

My father (born in 1919) was not willing to marry my mother before he knew he would survive. His generation were those that had in 1939 finished their military service and therefore fought in the war from the first to the last day. Of the nineteen boys in his class, only four have survived the war, which is quite normal for that generation. That’s why I was not born during the war, but early in 48.

I cannot recollect that the Nazi time was a theme in school when I was young or that any adult talked to us about it. Did we grow up innocent? Not really. “We are not in a Jews’ school”. “Do you think you are in a Jews’ school?” were sentences we often heard from our teachers. Before I knew what a Jew was (or even met one) I knew that ‘Jews+noun’ was bad. The word ‘Jews’ implied that something was wrong or laughable. A ‘Jews’ school’ was a school in which everybody talked at the same time and there was no real order.

I must tell you a bit about our language. If we say “Jewish + noun” that is completely neutral and the “Jewish” is just an adjective used for clarification. If we say Jews + noun (that’s a single word in German then, that implies contempt and ridicule. “Jewish jokes” are jokes as told by Jews, “Jews’ jokes” are bad jokes as told about Jews. If a German would say “Jews’ food” instead of Jewish food he would imply that at the very least he doesn’t like that food.

That “Jews’ school” expression as a mean to discipline us has been a companion of my school years. I have heard it for the last time in 1964.

When I went to a shop to buy the smallest of fireworks (allowed to sell to kids) those that you can explode between your fingers without any harm I asked for “Jews’ farts” (the PC name then was “midges’ farts”). Where does this expression come from? When the extermination camp guards after a hard day’s work burned the bodies there were sometimes (like in most fires) small explosions heard in the ovens. Then the guards may have said to each other: “Have you heard that Jew’s fart?” That’s how this expression did come into our language. As a kid you just repeat the expressions you hear without caring about etymology or about the verbatim meaning. But I cannot recall that I was even once corrected by an adult when I used that expression.

“Bis zur Vergasung”, “until the gas(s)ing (comes)”, was the expression to designate that something was done much longer than tolerable or too long to still be agreeable. “Ad nauseam” would be the “English” expression I’d use today. “He had us make pull-ups until the gassing comes”, “We did play football until the gassing comes” would be two contexts in which I would have used that expression. This expression had a harmless sense long before Hitler in chemistry. “Vergasung” was the process to bring a substance into the gaseous state. That could take sometimes very long and needed a lot of energy. “Bis zur Vergasung” in pre-Hitler German meant “very long”, “unendurably long”. I cannot recollect that I have ever been reminded when using this expression that in post-Hitler German such an expression should not be used anymore for its ugly association. When I found it out one day (old enough then to think about expressions) I couldn’t use that expression any longer.

No, we never had any teacher who taught us the Nazi ideology or who played down the German crimes. But these expressions of my childhood language stay in my mind as indicators that the denazification with the whitewash-certificates was at least in parts only superficial and that some Nazi thinking and talking remained long after 48.


------------------------------------------

When did it change? The change started in the early sixties. The first Auschwitz-trial (1963-1965) was a watershed for it was the first ever trial for Nazi crimes in West-Germany that had not been run by the Allies. Then the student rebellion in 67/68 was a time in which the questions like “What have you done in the Nazi time?” became popular. But in the 69 election, the fact that Brandt (who became chancellor after that election) during the war has fought on the ‘wrong’ side has still been used as an argument against him (with little success). Today that would be an argument for him. Perhaps the real reason for the slow change of Germany into a rather normal country was a “biological”. In the sixties and seventies, those who were too young to be involved into the Nazi crimes became the majority among the working population. For the young Germans (who are now getting old), the Nazi time is the most ugly part of our history that we have no personal interest to suppress or to be silent about.

In the early post-war years Germans did avoid mentioning that time and that went so far that some American films about that time were dubbed to eliminate all anti-Nazi elements. Can you imagine for instance seeing “Casablanca” dubbed and shortened so that it was a smuggler story without any Nazi in it? Ridiculous, but so it was to spare the Germans hurt feelings. Since the sixties, we can see that (and other) film(s) dubbed correctly. We now even can see Colditz in German TV and laugh or get angry if the plot is too silly.

I’ve written this even a bit more for myself than for the readers, but some of you may have wondered how quickly Nazi Germany transformed into a democratic West-German ally. To those I say no, it wasn’t quick, it took a long time and the aftershocks of the murderous years could still be felt by a young boy growing up in post-holocaust Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:16 PM

Thank you for that, Wolfgang. There is much food for thought in what you have written.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:48 PM

Very interesting stuff, which I am sure will result in many different responses. The thoughts and experiences of those being born elswhere in the world at pretty much the same time as Wolfgang - may also be interesting to read?

Just this week a gallery here in the (UK) West Country was holding a sale of Hitler's paintings - this too resulted in many different responses.

One was that as these were painted by Hitler as a very young man they had nothing to do with the later horrors and his part in them. I am not sure what my thoughts are on this view.

I could not help thinking how different the world would have been had Hitler been more successful at making a living from painting than he was. And that paintings which were largely ignored at the time and which very little money would have been spent on - will as a result only of these later horrors - no doubt be worth lots of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:49 PM

Well written, Wolfgang.   My family, luckily, left Vienna in 1938 after the Anschluss.   I have to say the Germany has taken ---in later years, as you say---more responsiblity (for want of a better word) than Austria. Austria, I believe, still maintains that it was annexed by Germany (against the will)---hence, Anschluss--joining. Not quite the case.   More like---hey--buddy come on in.

You have opened up some memories for me---the Blitz in London ( I was there), a picture in the NY Times on the 50th anniversary of the Anschluss (parade with Adolf)---I did a double take since I was in a Nanny's arms and recalled it.

I appreciate the wonderful and insightful piece you posted. Interestingly, I have always felt that Germany has come to terms with its sordid past (took me a while as well) and yet things just as bad go on---be it Idi Amin (a while back), Darfur, Rwanda, Cambodia;etc;. Additionally, the U S has, I do not believe, truly come to terms with its own horror of slavery and lynchings.   

Sadly this little planet of ours harbors some horrible people and probably a minority--it seems--of people of peace and good will.

A few closing comments---your remarks about the changing attitudes and the blind eye turned by the Allies because of their animosity with USSR. Quite true---and then there was the race to grab the scientists who worked for the Nazis--think Von Braun (or as Don Adams says in a routing---Von Brauns Autobiography is titled---I Shoot For The Stars--Sometimes I Hit London).   Blatant hardball hypocrisy by both USSR and U S --and UK. I think the French stuck to Foi Grasse.

Finally, a few grammatical comments and/or corrections. In English the derogatory terms would be like this---say, Jewish Food--OK. JewFood-Not OK. Semantics are hard to translate but one does get the distinction and lately we have had a few politicians here who deny their bigotry and have made comments--not against Jews but African Americans and syaing that they did not know what a certain word meant.
It is a hard thing to always be PC---words change in their meaning.

There is a song by Kinky Friedman (now running for Governor of Texas) called "Ride Em Jewboy". At first glance one would think--oh oh thisis going to be bad news---not so---if one listens to the words it is a dead serious song about the Holocaust. The Holocaust, by the way, in my opinion, is horrible and yet not that far removed from the horrors of slavery here and elswhere.

Once again---I thank you for your insightful posting.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:06 PM

Link to a story about the auction referred to.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2375160,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:10 PM

It is an honour to read your words, Wolfgang. Thank you.

My ex-husband's family left Russian-occupied Germany just before my ex-mother-in-law was born. Her family changed their name from "Schleusser" to "Schlager" when they reached the US. Her brothers were all born there. My ex-father-in-law was also of German descent, family name of "Eisenach."

As my brother had been stationed there in the 60's while in the Army, I always found Germany of great interest. (I followed his travels on a map on my bedroom wall.) My family still treasures the slides we have of the pictures he took while stationed there. It is a beautiful country.

I remember reading every book I could get my hands on about the Nazis and WWII in Europe. I burnt out on them years ago. Now, I have heard from one who lived in the aftermath and I am grateful you have shared with us.

With respect,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:12 PM

Actually Churchill was a better painter. Remember what Mel Brooks wrote in The Producers----speaking of the Nazi character where the Nazi character says---"...ach, der fuhrer vas such a vunderful painter" and Bialistock replies something to the effect---"... I don't thinks so--Churchill could do 2 rooms in under an hour. That's a painter".

Ach---liebchen---Der Fuhrer hat bildern gemacht? --nur zimmers hab ich gedankt. Aber schone zimmers--und Churchill's ---ech!!

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:18 PM

Wolfgang:

Many thanks for this thoughtful and important article. I hope you will feel free to add to it. It casts light on an area I have always wondered about. I grew up in a similar vacuum on the other side, in New York. While history always paints the so-called victors as so-called angels, it was quite mysterious to me why I so rarely heard anyone discuss the war and events they were part of in it. I think they, also, were horrible stories not daring to be let out, regardless of side.

Warmest regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:26 AM

I have read your account and explanation with great interest, Wolfgang, and I am fascinated to see the many ways that the language expresses the attitudes of the people at various stages. I have long thought so, but your examples help me to understand even more.

It is interesting that what I remember of school and 'images' of what the war was about generally dealt more with Japan than Germany, since it was Pearl Harbor that really got us into the war, and it was 'easier' to have negative feelings about people who didn't look so much like us.

   You mention 'Persilschein'....and I suspect that we found it easy to 'help' wash the remaining Germans clean...after all, it was just Hitler and the major Nazis who were really the problem...right? In fact, it has just been the last 7-8 years that we have seen quite a few television documentaries about the war that dwelt on the Nazis (instead of just battles) and on the Holocaust. Sadly, I look at newsreels of thousands of cheering people, giving the Nazi salute and marching for the 'glory' of Hitler & the Fatherland, and I suspect that no amount of laundry soap would have cleansed many of them. It is VERY difficult to comprehend why the Nazi ideals were not seen for what they were by more people......but it is easy to see why it was so little mentioned in the 50s and 60s.

Again....thank you for the thoughtful and insightful look at that society from the inside. I would like to see an entire book on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: eddie1
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:02 AM

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

I have often read these words and wondered – would I have had the courage to speak out? I'm rather ashamed of my deep down, real honest reply. Concentration camps were part of an up and running industry in Germany long.before the outbreak of WWII.

Thanks for your posting Wolfgang.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:20 AM

The generation that Wolfgang is part of did not have the choice - and do not know either if they would have been any better equipped to deal with those circumstances.

But in some ways they take the guilt and blame for the generation of German people who would appear to have avoided it (to some extent). Again due to difficult circumstances.

But this generation have to take both the guilt for the burden of the horrors and the guilt of the 'easy ride' back to a respectable nation.

I watch the TV scences and the bewilderment and their faces as the same generation of English 'football' thugs justify their rampages against a generation of German people who were not at all responsible, with offensive chants and salutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:33 AM

It wasn't just the older generation of Germans who held on to "unreconstructed" attitudes. In the 70s (maybe 1975 or 76) I travelled to Ireland on an overnight ferry from Holyhead. I got talking to other young people there, in particular a young German, a little older than me perhaps. As the talk went on, he became very indignant- I had mentioned the concentration camps and the Final solution: "No, nothing like that ever happened! It's all lying propoganda!" was how I remember what he said.

Perhaps the real culprit in all this is the Cold War, the Western allies needing support against the Soviets, and not being too picky about whence it came. Here's a question- was deNazification more or less rigorous in the East? It's there that the main support for the neoNazis comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Partridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:58 AM

Thank you Wolfgang.

Something I've always wondered about in post war Germany, Did many of the Jews return? How did they function in a society that wanted them gone?

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:26 AM

Well said Wolfgang, I salute you for that insightful post. I grew up singing kids songs about German soldiers crossing the Rhine, and one about doing rude things to one with a bayonet. If I remember them now it is with a nostalgia for the child that I was, and not for the songs that I and others sang, Remember in those days we also used to sing a silly patter song called the Darkie Sunday School, which Adam MacNaughtan still sings, but now it's the Glasgow Sunday School.
Language is insidious, and while we scoff at the PC brigade for their 'Language Politics' in declaring some words non-PC, and sometimes they do overdo it. Still it is good that these hateful words and expressions disappear from our mouths eventually, and even though it may be stopped only by lack of use rather than considered thought it's still better that they go.
Again thanks for the thought provoking post.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:31 AM

I had wondered the same thing about Jews in post-Inquisition Spain. This page traces the history of Jews in Spain and says there there is currently a small Jewish population in Spain. I read somewhere that before the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, they were required to wear yellow, six-pointed stars on their clothing. I thought that was a practice begun by the Nazis, but apparently not.

This page has information that should answer Pat's question:

The largest community in Germany is Berlin (10,000), followed by Frankfurt am Main (6,000) and Munich (5,000). There are 43,000 registered dues-paying members of the official Jewish community [of Germany].

Anybody know of information about the current Jewish populations in other areas where Jews were exterminated or deported? There were so many vibrant Jewish communities that were obliterated, some many centuries before the 1940's.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Jeanie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:19 AM

First of all, thank you Wolfgang for such an interesting post.

Joe, I can only answer briefly now (got to do some work !), but I have visited and spent some time in Erfurt (in the former East Germany)where there is now a flourishing Jewish community and synagogue (built in 1951), after the earlier synagogue was burned in the night of 9th November 1938 and many, many people were arrested and taken to nearby Buchenwald. I have a very interesting book in which Jewish and non-Jewish people have written their recollections of that time in Erfurt and have come to a reconciliation and understanding. Very moving stuff to read.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:19 AM

Hi, Wolfgang,

I am an Englishman, now in his late 50s. Both of my grandfathers fought in, and survived, the 1st World War. Both of my parents lived through the 2nd World War. My father (who died in 2004 - just short of his 91st birthday) was in a reserved occupation so didn't see combat (for which I thank God - no-one should have to experience that unless absolutely necessary). So, to those two generations, Germany was 'The Enemy'. To be fair, I experienced little anti-German feeling at home but it was fairly all-pervasive in popular culture (comics, films etc.) while I was growing up.
As an adult I am very aware of the monstrous crimes committed by the Nazi regime but I am also aware that, although the scale may differ, other regimes, in other times and places, have been/are also capable of similar crimes.
One thing which always sickens me is that there were many other non-German nations (including Britain), in the 30s, who were well aware of what the Nazis were building in Germany but chose to do nothing about it. And, of course, appeasement is alive and well today as we see in the case of Darfur. I believe that, in the 1990s, Germany attempted to take the lead in opposing the murderous Balkan fascist, Milosevic. If other European nations - including my own - had not been so intent on appeasing Milosevic, recognising the independence of Croatia should have protected it from attack. Instead Milosevic was appeased, the Balkan war escalated and Germany was vilified for its actions.
I have visited Germany on several occasions, often talk to German people on holiday and have German friends. I find modern Germans to be polite, articulate and civilised people. I am convinced that Germany long ago atoned for its past and is now a great, leading European nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:11 AM

Wolfgang, I recognized your post for what it was early on, a cathartic posting of feelings, facts, history. I did one of these myself years ago on Mudcat. I remember asking myself, after I hit the submit button, why did you do that, Mick? It is a fascinating post, and I read it with the eyes of a man who lived through roughly the same time in the US. Thanks for the look inside this time through a different set of eyes.

One thing that I found interesting was the "sanitization" of the history you described. It struck me because a Protestant friend from the North of Ireland once spent a great deal of time convincing me that she had never know or been taught anything of the struggles, the Black and Tans, the repression and gerrymandering, and all that the Irish Catholic endured. It was a moment for me, as I realized just how important the telling of history is, and how it can be used to control the minds, the thoughts, the beliefs, of a people. One can see its effects in the Middle East today. History depends on who is doing the telling.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:58 AM

Wolfgang, what a wonderful gift you have given us!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:59 AM

Mick, you're dead right there. Everything I know about British involvement in Ireland, I've learnt after school (and much of it as a direct result of talking with people here). Similarly, they don't tell you in schools that the British *invented* the concentration camp.

Wolfgang, I went over to Germany a couple of times with school exchanges, one before and one after the Wiedervereinigung. I was really shocked by the number of German kids my age saying "I hate Turks, they're getting houses given to them for free, etc". But you can hear the same all over the place - some bloke at a beer festival last weekend was saying exactly the same about illegal immigrants in Britain. What it seems to be is that they none of them have much contact with these people, and it's all too easy for them to talk hate in the abstract. Scares the crap out of me.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:49 AM

Note to Grab: It's a minor cavil, no grounds for boasting, but I believe the US Army invented the concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:59 AM

So many nice words make me blush.

Thanks to all who have posted. I have read the accounts of your own experiences with great interest.

Just a few responses:

Mick, I sat for more than two minutes with my finger on the submit button, still undecided.

Pat, I don't really know how the returning (or surviving) Jews felt. I never dared to ask the few German Jews I have met. Some did never come back, some said they would never come back but did come back many years later. Perhaps the story of Ignatz Bubis is an indication of the ambivalence of the German Jews' feelings towards Germany. Ignatz Bubis was probably the best know German Jew after the war, a very successful business man, a politician, and the chairman of the central committee of the German Jews. He was even asked to become German president but declined the offer as "too early for a Jew". He lived all his life in Germany (mostly Frankfurt) but when he died he was buried in Israel.

Paul, I have never met a young German denying the holocaust, so this species of German must be rare which makes me glad. The GDR was perhaps a bit like Austria. West-Germany was the sucessor to Nazi Germany and the socialist Germany was by definition free from any guilt. But they had a short (and harsh) denazification campaign after the war.

The Neonazis are much stronger in East Germany. One theory is that the GDR's way of treating the Nazi time has contributed to that. But there are probably better explanations: Up to 60% without work and with no hope of change are a breeding ground for extremists. If the conditions in East Germany were as good as they are in West Germany, the number of Neonazis might be considerably smaller. The most interesting theory I have read goes like this: the better qualified East Germans go West and, in particular, the young women leave. There are far too few young women in East Germany and so the chances for the young males there to find a family are low. Under these conditions young males group together in macho gangs and the Neonazis offer them the opportunity to feel good and strong. But it's a shame that they exist.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:07 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang, for giving us a look into the past from your perspective.

In the 70s, for four years I went out with an emigrated German who had been captured at the age of 19 in France by the Americans and for the those four years I read everythng about pre-war Germany and the war years I could find in libraries, great stacks of books. At the end, there were still great gaps in my understanding. It was especially hard to find anything written by Jews, post-war, and it was difficult to find anything written by post-war Germans of any stripe. Your recounting of your experience helps fill in some gaps.

I don't understand what you are saying here: "West-Germany was the sucessor to Nazi Germany and the socialist Germany was by definition free from any guilt."

Since the division between the 'two' Germanies was made at the conclusion of the war, in what way could one say that either side was 'by definition free from any guilt'? Those in the East had certainly as enthusiastically supported Hitler and the Nazi government as those in the West.

Unless you are saying that tongue in cheek? I recognize the literalness of my brain. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:33 PM

England had it's own period of infamy in it's treatment of Jewry
http://ddickerson.igc.org/cliffords-tower.html

and Britain was the first to institute Concentration Camps during the Boer War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp

I don't believ subsequent generations can take the blame for their forbears but neither should we forget........

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

It was reputedly the British who invented the Concentration Camp during the Boer War 1899-1902.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:03 PM

Many Nazis escaped prosecution in Germany at the end of the war. There is quite an interesting account of a group of Waffen SS who fought for the French as legionnaires in Vietnam. They were all former Partisanjagers (partisan hunters) known as the "Devils Guard" (ref: book of the same name by George Robert Elford ) In another thread I mentioned working with an Estonian man, who became a Stateless person, being the victim of enforced service with the Waffen SS.

I worked for a German shipping company once; and the ship I was on was dry docked in Bremen in 1976. Getting to know some of the workers quite well over a period of two weeks,I was invited for a drink with them at a special "old comrades" re-union. They were all former Nazis, and members of the Waffen SS. Of course many were simply just soldiers, and were not the Waffen SS who guarded the Concentration camps; but it was a disturbing experience I shall never forget.


Waidmanns Heil!

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM

Ebbie, if you reread Wolfgang's post, you will note that he explained that in East Germany, under the Communists, they had a purge of sorts and dealt with the former Nazi's early on. Hence the blamelessness, as opposed to the West where they gave the clean slate relatively easily.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:34 PM

People who go on and on about Nazi stuff that happened 60 or more years ago while not noticing what's going on right now in their own front yard and being done by their own governments right now are living in a fool's paradise.

Hitler is not our problem any more. Our present leaders are our problem. Our present system is our problem.

And most people obey them, don't they? That is your "patriotic duty", isn't it?

"I just followed orders. My country, right or wrong."

Most people do now do what most Germans did then. They obey orders from their superiors. As always. The penalties for not obeying are stringent. The benefits of obeying are to move up in the pecking order and be seen as a "good citizen".

Very little, if anything, has really changed. Countries go to war to secure vital resources and valuable land and to control markets. They go to war to build empires for themselves at others' expence. They pretend to have all kinds of other wonderful, idealistic reasons for doing it, but they lie. They use their largely innocent citizenry to do the killing of others who are also innocent. They pretend to be engaging in defensive actions when they blatantly and pre-emptively attack others without any real reason but to seek their own gain. Today's "good guy", today's "defender of freedom" will BE tomorrow's Hitler if he loses a great war. Wait and see, if you live long enough. If not, your children or their children will carry the burden...and possibly even be assigned some of the blame. Guilt by association.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM

Mick, I am afraid you overlooked an important bit in Wolfgangs posting concerning East Germany: "West-Germany was the sucessor to Nazi Germany and the socialist Germany was by definition free from any guilt". This was East-Germanys position. Pure Propaganda.

East Germany also "whitewashed" Nazis - provided they were useful to them or turned their coats (again - as many members of the SA had fought on the communists side before 1933). And they used their denazification campaign to suppress non-communists and get hold of their property.

East Germany also never gave any compensation to Jewish people to speak of.

Hipocrisy exists in all political systems. It is one of the less admirable parts of the human character.

Has anyone mentioned Guenter Grass yet? ;0)

Like your posting, Wolfgang. Very reflective, as usual.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:50 PM

I really enjoyed that first post Wolfgang. Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:01 PM

Thank you for your post, Wolfgang. It was disturbing in places, but honest reflections are often disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: nutty
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

Man's inhumanity to man.
Something to be remembered whenever we start to consider ourselves superior to other species on the planet.

Particularly as such inhumanity is invariably brought about by the effects of such matters as race, politics and religion, on a population that has never been taught to think for itself.

Thank you Wolfgang.. .. may you live your life in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:12 PM

Thank you Wolfgang for this post, I echo all the positive comments the other have already made.

It strikes me that countries/societies, just like individuals, mature when they learn to say "sorry", in other words when they learn to recognise their own past faults and admit them publicly. In that sense, Germany is a much more mature country than Japan, Austria, Italy, France, Britain, and closer to my origins, Greece and Turkey, to name but a few. By the same standard, the US still has a long way to go too.

It takes time, and it's not an easy thing to do; but all the more valuable for that.

Thank you again.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:28 PM

Wolfgang's initial post is indeed honest and forthright. Well said, Wolfgang.

In reference to what you said, nutty - "a population that has never been taught to think for itself"

I believe that would accurately describe all populations in the world at present. Children are not taught to think for themselves. They are taught to believe what their parents believe and what their teachers and various leaders tell them. They are taught to accept an official, established view of reality and of past history. They are taught that their country and way of life are the best. They are taught to obey and conform. By the time they reach adulthood, those patterns are well set to be passed on to their children. Those few who are deeply rebellious by nature become marginalized (during adolescence and young adulthood), are seen as "losers", and usually end up on the wrong side of the law, where they are effectively separated forever from the governing apparatus...and are, in effect, at its mercy from then on.

That is why a government has little trouble finding citizenry to do its dirty work for it. They're used to doing what they are told, and they don't really figure they have any other good option in most cases.

"rules are rules"

What happened in Germany can, and does, happen anywhere. The only question is: when?

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:31 PM

Ernest, I didn't miss that. Had you read the whole thread you will see that I am just responding to a question asked by Ebbie. I said nothing as to whether I bought into it, or made any comment about it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:45 PM

Apologies if I misunderstood you, Mick. Sounded like you bought the East German position to me.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM

Every now and then the Mudcat throws up this kind of personal statement, that throws a light on some troubled aspect of the past or the present. I remember Big Mick's piece about being a soldier in Vietnam. Quite remarkable, and so is what Wolfgang has given.

I have often wondered how it must have been to grow up in Germany, with an older generation, including parents, who had been implicated in Nazism.

The crucial thing I have always tried to hold on to is to remember that there are no reasons for thinking that our own parents, or ourselves if we had been in that situation, would have kept ourselves free from the corruption. And the same goes for other crimes of history, such as slavery and its aftermath.

We can fantasize that we would have been among the "saving minority"; we would have escaped abroad to fight the Nazis, like Wilhelm Brandt, or helped run the Underground Railway in American slave times. And some people would have, but we have no right to assume that we would have been among them, and the historical record indicates that it is very unlikely that we would have been.

And the lesson to draw from that is to look at the world today, and try to see whether there are things happening for which the same applies, where future generations will look back at us with horror and disgust for what we tolerated and what we colluded in, and even took pride in.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: GUEST,The Questioner
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM

There seem to be an awful lot of threads here at the moment about specifically Jewish issues. Is this statistically significant?

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

Why do you ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

No worries, Ernest. I just wanted her to know where Wolfgang addressed it.

Yes, Kevin, I agree with much of your observations. I think that when we look back at a time, whether it was Wounded Knee, My Lai, Aushwitz, that we recognize that the perpetrators must be looked at from the perspective of their humanity. It is important that we not see them as monsters, as much as everyday people who did montrous acts. I believe that it is necessary to recognize that reality, and the sense of right and wrong, often is distorted in the crucible of the times. And finally, we must always attempt to honestly stick ourselves into those shoes and ask ourselves honestly what we would do. By ask ourselves, I mean we must sink into the innermost places of our mind, oblivious to those around us, and be brutally honest with ourselves.

This is one of the reasons I am so concerned with the fluid sense of what is right and wrong that I see in todays society. It is why I take on the folks that immorally download music, for example. It is why I take on young folks that seem to think something is wrong only if you are caught. It is why I take on folks that want to mitigate right and wrong, using alibi's like "I don't feel bad ripping off big corporations" whether it is music or anything else. I am not trapped in old ways, but neither should certain things be discarded just because they are old. I don't care whether your base is religious, or just living an ethical life, there are certain values that are timeless and are not subject to evolutionary thinking. One shouldn't steal. When one takes something that they know should be paid for, that is theft whether it is from BMG or Folk Legacy or an Independent Artist.

It is a sense of fluid morality that ultimately leads to things like Aushwitz, or Wounded Knee, or Rosewood, Florida. Ignoring sad pasts does the same thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:46 PM

My point exactly, McGrath. The vast majority of people in every society bend the same way the official wind is blowing at the time (specially when things seem to be going okay for them and their families)...and that doesn't make them bad people. It just makes them average people in an average state of awareness.

God help them when their country loses a great war...I mean a war where foreign armies/air forces come in at the end of it and totally smash and take over the place. That happened to Germany, Italy, and Japan. It can happen to others too.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:09 PM

The thing is, Mick, the people who commit the very worst crimes on behalf of a government (or a religion) most often are under the unshakeable impression that their victims are the real criminals and what they are doing to those so-called "criminals" is 100% legitimate defence of their country, their society, their moral traditions, and their freedom.

That certainly was the attitude of a great many Nazis, both high and low on the chain of command, when they arrested, incarcerated, brutalized and killed Jews, Gypsies, Communists, pacifists, and a great many other supposed "enemies of the Reich". Many years of virulent government and media propaganda had brought them to that understanding. They were duped and brainwashed.

Big Brother had told them over and over again that those people were bad, were deadly enemies of society, and they believed Big Brother. The same sort of thing goes on today, in a great many places. It goes on anywhere where a government primes its cops and its soldiers to kill, as a matter of fact. It's standard procedure. You dehumanize "the enemy", so that your young men in uniform will kill without hesitation when the time comes.

And if they don't, they are called cowards or traitors. That's pressure. Severe pressure. No wonder most people give in, deny their more human side, and just go along with the orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:22 PM

The amount and level of communication and sharing of thought that "Joe Average" now has via the internet is remarkable. Some of us think that Mudcat adds to that with an even closer tie of friendship even in this new, strange, cyber way. That is what has made discussions and statements such as are happening here in this thread now seem commonplace when in all fact they are not.

"So what the hell are you leading up to Spaw?"

I really don't know but I think it's this................

The good, the bad, and the ugly, that has happened during each of our tenures on this planet is now brought to us in copious and entirely unbelievable quantities. Although we could surely have had these thoughts before, most of us didn't. The life experiences of another are brought home to us and our own lives are reanalyzed with that added input many times over what we would have done before the net.

I'm sitting here, a 57 year old man in a tiny village in rural Ohio, learning about what another very similar but slightly different man from the other side of the world did and thought while growing up in the aftermath of perhaps the largest event of the 20th century. Although this was possible before if we all went to the right places, I can now experience and contemplate all of this in my own home and whenever I wish to do it.

Wolfie, as others have said, it was/is a great post. What fascinates me is the timeline and the comparison to my own childhood happening at the same time. I lived in a small town then too where, when I was 9 or 10 as Wolfgang was and playing in Germany, I was playing here. World War II was not so far away in say, 1958. This country was filled with ex-soldiers and Rosie's like my own parents whose lives were forever changed. My town was mainly of Italian and German (along with English) settling but it was mainly second or third generation who fought the war and never really considered themselves anything but "American" first. And as kids, we played Cowboys and Indians but we also played War. We kids weren't fighting the Russians yet.......No, we were playing Japs and Krauts and the plastic soldiers were made to look like American or German or Japanese soldiers!

I don't know how, but I'd forgotten that. I've thought about this all for a few days now and I don't have any memories of teachers or others having many kind words about Germany or Japan. We had a Fizzie in an aluminum tumbler and went out again on those hot summer days to fight the war of our fathers with bags of Tojos and Huns and little Audie Murphys....all cheaply available to us by that wonder of the 50's, plastic.

.........Sweet Jesus, how did I get here from there?

Wolfgang, I have enjoyed our cyber friendship and I want to thank you for yet another post that made me think......or whatever little I do that passes for it nowadays. I'm always fascinated by parallel lifetimes and now I can share with others from all over the world, even to old Bugsy in Western Oz.

Thanks Wolfie......and don't do it again.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

Wolgang: Again, my compliments on a wonderful and insightful piece.

   I am not sure what you meant by the following--which you wrote in your second post---:    The GDR was, perhaps, a bit like Austria .

   Not sure what that means.   I meant to say in my first note that Austria is known by that name in English but its native name is OSTREICH. Which makes my mentioning of the "voluntary" Anschluss--still denied to this day by that nation all the more logical since OSTREICH, as you know, translates to EAST REICH. And let us not forget that one of the ex- Secretary Generals of the UN was Waldheim of Austria---who it turned out hid his Nazi past.

   In my opinion the Germans are much more open to remembering the past and making ammends for it through laws they have promulgated. OSTREICH, to its credit, has, albeit reluctantly, paid much in reperations to victims of the time.

    A cousin of mine (now deceased) was enamored of the country and went back as often as she could. Even got her Austrian passport again. One evening at a party she gave her friend--the Austrian Consul General was in attendance ---a lovely man, I must say---asked me if I would like a passport and feel like I am returning home as my cousin felt.   I politely declined and pointed out that when your parents disown you and throw you out of the home your life has gone on and they are not needed or wanted anymore.

    The Consul General, as I said, is a very nice and sincere person who meant what he said in a heartfelt way. He later, at my request, appeared as a guest on my Radio station's Jewish radio program (not hosted by me then as it is now.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:57 PM

Jews were forced to wear red hats in venice in the days of shakespeare and shylock etc... not quite yellow stars but functionally the same thing ... and of course different rules applied.

They have been victimized and scapegoated in europe for hundreds of years so of course it was convenient for Germany's european enemies to be able to claim the moral high ground after the second world war and then magnanimously forgive the German layman for his part in the holocaust.

Those Jews who could not easily forgive and who could not get into america were conveniently packed off to palestine so that europe wouldn't have to face up to it's past and it's responsibilities.

The brits pushed the native palestinians off their land and generously "gave" it to europes jewish exiles.

And now the EU passes moral judgement on the politics of the middle east, where survivors of the holocaust were left to get over their pain on their own thanks very much surrounded by some very angry locals who wanted their farms and houses back.

It's not just germans that need to face up to europes unrelenting history of anti-semitism.

Oh and before anyone jumps to conclusions, I am an Irish catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:59 PM

Yeah, I played with those same plastic soldiers, Spaw. Yanks, Germans, and Japanese. The Japanese guys were particularly fanatical looking, Banzai charging and screaming, and waving knives and swords and stuff. They also had sculpted glasses put on quite a few of them! You never saw glasses on the German or American soldiers. It reflected the general nasty image of the Japanese at the time as buck-toothed, bespectacled, snarling, sadistic little "monkey-men" that was being pushed in movies, comics, and TV in the 50's and early 60's. Those plastic soldiers were made by a company called Marx Brothers. You could buy a bag of 50 of them for maybe a buck or less. All the kids had them.

I was naturally interested in the war, because stuff about it was everywhere back then, and my dad had served in the British forces, driving a Stuart tank.

What I remember from grade school and high school was this tremendous amount of what truly was sheer hate propaganda, all designed to depict WWII Japanese and Germans as monsters. (The Italians were barely spoken of...) I never forgot that. I don't like hate propaganda, no matter which way it is aimed, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat by schools and media.

I don't understand why, when a war has already been totally won and the enemy utterly conquered, it must still be seen as necessary to teach a new generation of kids to hate the people who lost it. That's what was being done in those days. What good could that achieve? I consider it quite similar to what the German and Japanese propaganda spinners were doing on their side when things were going their way. It's the automatic assumption that "We're better than they are. We're good. They're evil."

I hear rhetoric like that from George Bush regularly. He imagines he is fighting a war against evil.

Such assumptions are dangerous, they're self-serving, they're blind, and they are untrue. They lead to future great evils committed by the very same people who think they are above that sort of iniquity.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM

The thing is, Hawk, that was exactly my point. That what the whole diatribe about keeping in very close check with your true motives, and value system was about. Yours seems to think that there is no hope, I take a different view. As in developing a value system, spare, and as absolute as you can make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:48 PM

There is a comment above to the effect that there are a lot of Jewish threads. I find this question disturbing.

I don't think that six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust--I think that six million human beings were murdered.

They were murdered because they were Jews, However, fact that they were Jews is incidental to the fact that they were human beings. The great fiction of racism is that, somehow, the fact that someone is a Jew, an Armenian, a Ukranian, a Native American, a Hugenot, makes them less human.

When it is said that Six Million Jews were murdered, most people are not Jews--and it becomes a "Jewish Issue"-- terrible yes, but not "our" problem. But humans were murdered, our own flesh and blood--it was the most abominable crime in human history --Not just Jewish History, but all history--

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:49 PM

Little Hawk: Not Marx Brothers --the makers of those toys. Just The Marx Co. (Louis Marx if I recollect).   The Marx brothers brought us joy and and Louis brought children much joy as well---from electric trains (I had one) to many other toys.   

             You have heard of WWJD--my newly coined slogan---which fits in here so well--when could that happen---WWGS. What Would Groucho Say.   

             In your last posting I think you are missing a poing. Bush is what he is, and we all seem to agree. But your analogy to his comments of good v evil and relating it to the Germans and so on is flawed. For one thing, we have not won a war---a war that we are mistakenly involved in.   And it gets worse. You don't export democracy to people of a different culture that don't want it. That is a whole different discussion.

             Unless I misread you your statement about the Japanese and the Germans and their "spinning" was while the war was on--and we also did that. Once it ended things changed a bit and the Allied hypocrisy showed its head (after the Nurenmburg trials) because of the USSR/US (UK) conflict. See above post re: Von Braun and scientists.

             Frankly, having lived through the era and having to leave my homeland I can only refer you to my first posting in regard to the "propoganda" of the Allied nations. Let's face it---we had to win or you would not be able to write the things you have written. In fact you might have been served up as bacon somewhere---I mean that literally.

             As a sidelight on this. Recently an 86 yr old woman living in Queens, NYC was deported for lying on her visa application after the war---she was a bride of a U S soldier (who never knew her background). She was a guard at Treblinka. I guess Von Braun never lied--he just said "sure---I can build you a rocket."   Mengele, Eichman, and others---the Israelis got them.   We deport 86 yr old women because we won't have ex Nazis here---unless they can build a rocket.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM

"...you will note that he explained that in East Germany, under the "Communists, they had a purge of sorts and dealt with the former Nazi's early on" Big Mick, in response to Wolfgang saying that "West-Germany was the sucessor to Nazi Germany and the socialist Germany was by definition free from any guilt. But they had a short (and harsh) denazification campaign after the war."

I appreciate your effort, Mick, but imo it doesn't address my question. Presumably Communistic East Germany 'purged' Nazi officials and other obviously governmental types- but did they question or deal with the ordinary German, someone who went along to get along?