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“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright Date: 28 Dec 24 - 02:38 AM We are veering off the subject somewhat.... however at least in Rugby when the referee tells a player off , for whatever reason , the player a six foot six pile of muscle looks the five foot f#@£ all referee in the eye and says ‘sorry sir’ and walks away., accepting his punishment with grace even if he is sent off. Fiddlers on the other hand simply launch into another set of jigs and reels for twenty minutes ignoring the highly talented guitarist who has sat patiently for hours trying find the opportunity to sing a song. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock wright Date: 28 Dec 24 - 02:39 AM Some of my best friends are fiddlers. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 28 Dec 24 - 05:38 AM They were probably cracking on with their jigs and reels as tightly as possible to keep out the confounded guitar player, not to ignore him. I've seen more sessions ruined by an entitled guitar owner who's been unwisely encouraged than by any other instrument, and certainly more than I've seen football matches ruined by what we footie fans called shithousery. The latter is at the most sporadic behaviour and is usually exacerbated by weak refereeing, for which Premier League football especially is notorious. As for tellies vs sessions in pubs, a little forbearance is required here. Let's not forget that the word "pub" is short for public house, and that far more people enjoy watching telly, including football on telly, than enjoy diddley sessions, and that the landlord has to make a living. This should be about negotiation, not puerile sniping. I've seen that done successfully many times. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 28 Dec 24 - 07:25 AM If you are attending "Sandy`s" over the Christmas period keep your ears tuned for Geoff Doel, on of our most knowledgeable Folk Music scholars. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 28 Dec 24 - 07:38 AM I was thoroughly wrongfooted by that post. Where I live, good singers get invited to sing the odd song during a night of music. Because that's what they do they are singers. In my world 'highly talented guitar players' play guitar. If you get my drift. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 28 Dec 24 - 10:32 AM And in a very recent report in the Edinburgh Evening News there is a list of 19 “buzzy pubs” in Edinburgh: they are deemed to be “must visit” pubs, only a few of them what you might call “music pubs”. Think I have visited around half of them over the nearing 40 years that we’ve lived here. This is apparently decided in the gospel according to The Good Pub Guide, though no idea who makes these decisions. And top of the list?…………………………drum roll……………………… Sandy Bell’s! Meanwhile, elsewhere, on Facebook, a friend has posted a photo of a blackboard on the door of said pub, with the following interesting messages: Live Music Every Day - 6pm - 12.30.am weekdays, from 2pm Saturdays, from 4pm Sundays. Nae Bairns (Sorry) Nae Fannies Nae Student Discount Free Pub Etiquette Lessons Provided ( They missed the bit about nae lamentable fiddlers?!) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright Date: 31 Dec 24 - 04:30 AM Just looked back at my last post, ‘Some of my best friends are fiddlers’ could be taken the wrong way. What I meant was they fiddle, No that doesn’t work either. They are some of the lamentable ... Good grief no. They play the fiddle no that’s not right They lay the violin . Hell now I sound pretentious. I know people in a band will have to do. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Oriel Wynn-Dawe Date: 01 Jan 25 - 04:46 AM "ignoring the highly talented guitarist who has sat patiently for hours trying find the opportunity to sing a song." Perhaps the guitarist should have gone to a song session? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 01 Jan 25 - 05:45 AM if we are not careful, we'll have a pointless discussion about the desirability of 'song sessions' and 'music sessions'- each phrase reeks of pigeonholing & I will have nothing to do with it |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jan 25 - 07:16 AM Reminds me of Bob Davenport |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 01 Jan 25 - 11:31 AM if that refers to me, I'm very flattered |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jan 25 - 11:47 AM Yes. we had some good times, particularly in the Suibin, A good mix |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Oriel Wynn-Dawe Date: 01 Jan 25 - 12:19 PM Jim Bainbridge - it's about choice. I want to play tunes all night so I go to a session where I can do that. Singers don't always want to listen to tunes. Some people like mixed sessions. It's not about pigeon-holing, but about enabling people to find what they want. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 01 Jan 25 - 03:11 PM Anyone with any knowledge of the tradition will know that it consists of music, stories, songs, step dances, couple dances, half sets, jokes & the 'crack' generally. 'Music' could include solos, duets, bands, spoons solos, musical sawyers & total shambleses of all kinds but above all aimed to be fun and enjoyment for all present . I'm not aware that in the 'tradition' there were ever dedicated 'music' or 'song' sessions? Yes you can of course choose one aspect & if you just and want to play tunes or sing songs, you can of course do that, but I do think you're missing out. I was at a few of Ken Hall's 'Traditional Nights Out' at Whitby festival and all of the above skills used to feature to the great delight of the people. A policy of pigeon-holing could never have achieved that.... |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jan 25 - 04:22 PM I agree with Jim, further more what about what the people in the pub want. My experience in this part of ireland, is that the people in the,pub want songs and tunes, and the publicans decide what they want, it is their pub. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock wright Date: 01 Jan 25 - 05:40 PM Music has words unspoken Poems are songs that are said Dance is a journey that’s taken Chose which way you are led. Joy is a friend or a brother A kiss from the lips of another Life is a story unfolding Love is a dream never ending Warmth is from the love that is burning And the tune through your head that keeps turning Silence is a thought unspoken Truth is what you just said So lift a glass to whoever For those in your life that shine Here’s to returning forever To memories that are yours And mine. Rob Wright Sept 2025 |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Oriel Wynn-Dawe Date: 02 Jan 25 - 05:15 AM Jim Bainbridge - Sometimes I choose a tune session, sometimes a club to listen to a guest and floor singers. Sometimes I go to a concert. I play for dance and also song accompaniment. I like to be able to choose what I want to do on any particular day. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 02 Jan 25 - 06:30 AM Surely the value of variety in most contexts is of value? You can of course make the choices you do, and I hope you enjoy them, but the element of surprise in a musical gathering is important to me. A few tunes in the middle of a song session can lift the atmosphere and vice versa. A well-chosen poem or limbo dance can make the night! A gathering I attended years ago developed into a fairly uninspired tune session - until an older lady asked if she could give a song. She turned out to have 'trodden the boards' in the past & gave us the liveliest version of the 'Laughing Policeman' I've ever heard- the whole night suddenly became fun, smiles and musicians talking to each other..... yes it was that good! The highest quality unbroken singing or the equivalent uninterrupted tune sessions can be extremely monotonous- I have been there.... |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 02 Jan 25 - 07:50 AM "I'm not aware that in the 'tradition' there were ever dedicated 'music' or 'song' sessions?" As long as I've been involved in Irish music there has. But that's only since about 1971, I'm still learning. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 02 Jan 25 - 08:17 AM PMB. Many years ago there were Rambling houses, as I understand An evening of homespun storytelling, song and dance in the comfort peoples homes, you are indeed still learning |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Helen Date: 02 Jan 25 - 08:24 AM From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock wright Date: 01 Jan 25 - 05:40 PM "Rob Wright Sept 2025" Did you use a TARDIS? :-D (BTW, I like your poem.) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Oriel Wynn-Dawe Date: 02 Jan 25 - 12:44 PM Jim Bainbridge - you don't like tune sessions, you find them monotonous - therefore there shouldn't be any? Oh dear, we seem to be back to lamentable fiddlers. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob mad jock wright Date: 02 Jan 25 - 01:29 PM OOPS No Tardis involved. Just poor checking. Sept 2024. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob mad jock wright Date: 02 Jan 25 - 01:30 PM And thank you. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Helen Date: 02 Jan 25 - 01:49 PM No worries, GUEST,Rob mad jock wright! I have the opposite problem. It takes a few weeks for my old brain to register the new year. I'll be writing and saying 2024 until my brain finally remembers to turn over the new leaf. It's like a great big truck doing a U-turn, very slowly and in small increments. LOL |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST Date: 02 Jan 25 - 02:08 PM Dear O M D please do not misquote me- I said nothing like that- I just stated my opinion that you were missing out & pointed out why I think that- you can accept that or not- up to you |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright Date: 02 Jan 25 - 02:18 PM No offence meant and non taken. I enjoy a good debate though. Enjoy. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock wright Date: 02 Jan 25 - 02:19 PM Oh that was not for me .... |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 02 Jan 25 - 03:05 PM > It takes a few weeks for my old brain to register > the new year. You're not alone, Helen. Rich Hall (I *think*) defined chequebury as that month of the year which ends when you get the year right when writing a cheque; now that so few UK shops accept cheques at all*, I find that my personal chequebury tends to extend for more than twelve calendar months. * I have an entire rant on this financial atrocity, which need not detain us here. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Helen Date: 02 Jan 25 - 03:20 PM "chequebury" - that's funny, and quaintly out of date. LOL From: GUEST Date: 02 Jan 25 - 02:08 PM On the posting about quoting others, without a specific reference it is difficult to tell who the anonymous guest is addressing and which quote was being referenced. On the topic of this thread, I have been to a number of music sessions here in NSW, Oz and each one has had its own way of operating, including the type of music which tends to draw people to that particular session. Every one of the session groups has been supportive and encouraging of most musicians and singers - no dancers here, not that I have seen - except when an individual tries to hog the floor a bit and then the other participants politely and diplomatically shift the session back into its desired path. There are enough sessions of different types in my area to satisfy the preferences of most participants. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST Date: 02 Jan 25 - 03:31 PM "PMB. Many years ago there were Rambling houses, as I understand An evening of homespun storytelling, song and dance in the comfort peoples homes, you are indeed still learning" ??And?? I merely said that there HAVE been dedicated tune sessions, from the 1970s till last year at least (I haven't been to any in 2025 yet). I'm sure there were rambling houses too, and rambling idiots maybe. Alors, expliquez votre boef s'il vous plait. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Helen Date: 02 Jan 25 - 04:23 PM Thanks, Guest. That clarifies the quote you were referencing. Le boeuf de ma tante est dans le fourneau de mon oncle? Or something like that? LOL |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 02 Jan 25 - 04:47 PM I would have expected it to be the other way round. Apologies for forgetting to stick my moniker on that last post. And for missing the u. Song sessions - great. Poetry, story sessions - great. Tune sessions. English. Irish. Scots. Welsh. French. - great. Mixed sessions with any or all of the above combined - great. Juggling act in tune session - well, once in a while. The occasional dance is often better received. Barging in with what you think should be going on when the rest of the company have settled down to an expected different take - perhaps don't be surprised if you're coolly received. Insistently telling other people what they ought to be doing when they've convened for an agreed purpose - be well insured for plastic surgery. But we're getting a long way from Barbara Dickson, and why she preferred the good old days of standing outside with the womenfolk while the smoky male boozers got on with the serious business in the warm. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 03 Jan 25 - 03:23 AM dedicated tune session in pubs appear to be an offspin of the uk folk revival. Basically if you are only interested in playing for yourselves and not entertaining other people do it at home, do not expect a publican to welcome you to the pub if his clients are not entertained, it is his or her pub and he she decides what music his customers get, that is the reality, Barbraa was a customer presumably, who wanted some different entertainment |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 03 Jan 25 - 03:25 AM Thats another reason i left old Skibbereen |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Oriel Wynn-Dawe Date: 03 Jan 25 - 04:55 AM Barbara was annoyed because she wanted to sing and other people didn't sit in respectful admiration of the famous star. On your opinion of sessions - perhaps you should get out more? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 03 Jan 25 - 05:24 AM from my time in Barbara's company in the past, I'd say there was no justification at all for that comment |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jan 25 - 05:58 AM I'm not aware that in the 'tradition' there were ever dedicated 'music' or 'song' sessions? As long as I've been involved in Irish music there has. But that's only since about 1971, I'm still learning. I'e never heard of an Irish-only singing session - do they exist outside of Ireland? In Scotland or England, Irish songs will only be a part of the repertoire. It's different with Americana, you would not be likely to hear any non-American song in that context. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 03 Jan 25 - 06:47 AM With Irish singing, all singing sessions are Irish only. Because as soon as they sing it, it becomes Irish. From Courting in the Kitchen via Off to Dublin in the Green to Dirty Old Town (and Shores of Erin). As others have pointed out, many tunes in the Irish repertoire seem to be Scots or English in origin. And French these days. I didn't manage to get Baym Reb'n in Kilfenora accepted though. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 03 Jan 25 - 07:38 AM you're on about 'songs sung in Ireland' publications? I ran a singing session in Leitrim with a fine Ulster singer Jackie Boyce & often sang Tommy Armstrong's epic 'Wor Nanny's a Mazer at sessions. I don't think that one would be easily absorbed into the Irish song tradition? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 05 Jan 25 - 09:36 AM Surprised to see this thread still active after all this time albeit it has drifted quite a lot. Jim is right in that "tune pubs" aren't part of the tradition as such. Neither are singarounds nor any other type of session, of course. Folk Clubs(or festivals) themselves aren't either. That's not to say that songs and tunes never happened in pubs or similar places but, as Barbara suggested, one couldn't assume that they had they right to perform, sing, or play music when they visited. It wasn't regarded as the norm or an entitlement and it just "depended" on the situation at the time. So, I think that was really the point she was trying to make. It really applied to songs as well along with all other types of instrument. The specific comment re "fiddlers" was clumsy and a little disappointing but I don't think they were the main focus of what she wished to discuss. Anyway, please carry on. ;-)) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 05 Jan 25 - 10:03 AM Tradition (n): that which, on visiting a pub for the first time, the regulars assure one "we've been doing it for years". |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: meself Date: 05 Jan 25 - 12:21 PM Let's face it, "tradition" is a fluid term. "The way we've been doing it for years" can fairly be called "tradition", for the particular group concerned, at least. That, of course, may be very different from a "tradition" passed down within a culture from time immemorial (supposedly). Instrumental pub sessions, particularly those of the "Irish" variety, have been going on for long enough that it is probably fair to apply the terms "tradition" and "traditional" to them, with the understanding that that does not mean they have "always" occurred. Of course, I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know - I just felt the urge to pontificate. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 05 Jan 25 - 12:32 PM Yes, in one sense but the time scale is important in the great scheme of things. Most of us here(myself included) have always known Sandy Bell's as a folkie and even predominantly tune venue but that wasn't always the case. I can also remember when The Capatin's Bar and even the Royal Oak(It was called The Pivot during the seventies) weren't folkie/trad institutions either. However, I was referring to folk and trad music over several generations when regular organised gatherings didn't happen in pubs as such. We didn't have "session pubs". That's not to say that music and song never happened in these environments, of course. It just wasn't a regular or organised thing. It has been suggested that Irish sessions as we know them today date back as recently as 1947 in London and were patronised by Irish workers who presumably played a bit of music too. Of course, there would have been music in pubs from time to time before that in The UK and elsewhere but it wouldn't have been a regular thing nor presumed to be always welcomed. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 05 Jan 25 - 12:34 PM Thanks, Meself. Something similar to what I was trying to say. :-) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: meself Date: 05 Jan 25 - 03:03 PM You're welcome, of course! However: "date back as recently as 1947" vs "over several generations" - I know it seems like only yesterday to some of us, but we've had "several generations" since 1947 ... ! |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 05 Jan 25 - 03:16 PM "as recently as 1947 in London " So 80 years doesn't make a tradition? Look at Dickens' rendition of Cockney dialect, and compare it with early 20th century music hall's- the source of gor blimey guvnor etc. Or, apart from maybe one or two, no Derbyshire well dressings can be dated earlier that the 1880s, patronised by nice vicars. And in English folk music, the thread of continuity is very tenuous; even the musical style of today bears little resemblance with early 20th century recordings (scrapy fiddle, straight up-and-down melodeon). I can only speak for the Irish tune tradition; the session may be "recent" but the music is flourishing - and evoilving- in a way that aspicians won't appreciate. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jimm bainbridge Date: 06 Jan 25 - 08:55 AM Maybe a lifetime is enough for something to become established as traditional'- or not...- the word is much abused- I heard someone speak of 'traditional email' recently- 30 years max... English 'traditional' older recordings have a bit more to them than 'scrapy fiddle and up & down melodeon' & such a description does you no credit. Currently 'English' music is based on such old recordings and a very few older musicians, and did NOT start with the revival folky bands of the early 70s. If today's version has changed again, well so what? Maybe thats whats happened at Sandy Bell's?? 'Traditional' is a very much overused word in music circles. In the Irish context, 'traditional' music was detested by the state & survived in private homes & in the USA for decades until a more enlightened postwar state realised its value & took a pride in it & encouraged its revival. England and Scotland have never done that. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 07 Jan 25 - 06:15 AM > I heard someone speak of 'traditional email' > recently- 30 years max... Almost excusable for a medium which has moved so fast, but I'll save my rant about Web pages masquerading as plain text for another thread, and limit myself here to suggesting "classic e-mail"* is better. In the meantime, let's try some more definitions (share and enjoy): Tradition: (1) What was handed down to the speaker. (2) "We do it *that* way, but I can't remember why." * The hyphen is not optional. This makes related terms such as "e-hassle" (pertaining to a shitogram) self-explanatory. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 07 Jan 25 - 09:05 AM Argh: the muse has struck ....
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