Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845

Subject: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 May 10 - 03:22 AM

BBC Radio 3 19.50 Thursday 20.5.10

Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew

It was on this day, 20th May in 1845, that Lord Franklin's ships the Erebus and Terror cleared the mouth of the Thames on their voyage to find the Northwest Passage. A traditional song recounts the story 'of Franklin and his gallant crew' and through this Julian May explores Franklin's fateful, indeed fatal, voyage, and reveals how folk song, as well as beautiful and inspiring, can be history.

You can read more about it here

Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew

Hopefully it will be on the iplayer

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: NormanD
Date: 19 May 10 - 04:17 AM

Also the inspiration for Bob Dylan's "Bob Dylan's Dream", on 'Freewheelin'. He uses the melody, and some lyrics, and acknowledges the source in the sleeve notes. It later led me to this far older song, "Lady Franklin's Lament" - lots of discussion here in the past.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:11 AM

My preferred version by the Duncan McFarlane Band has Stan Rogers' chorus added. Terrific. I doubt it will be featured on this radio programme though!.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:19 AM

FRANKLIN [Stanley Accrington 1993]

I was in a folk club the other week
Someone sang Lord Franklin and I fell asleep
I dreamed a dream, and I thought it true
Concerning Franklin and his gallant crew

From Baffin Bay where the whale fish play
쳌ecross the frozen ocean in the month of May
For a North west passage his course was fixed
That's in Canada not up the M6

The expedition had limited means
The only food they had was tins of beans
Even the Eskimo in his skin canoe
Had baked beans and frozen fish fingers too

With all those beans the winds began to blow
The fate of Franklin no man doth know
The fate of Franklin no man can tell
All that was left of him was a funny smell

In those days the tins were made with lead
They should have been made from steel instead
The crew grew sick and wished they'd never started
And as for Franklin ....... he simply departed

But now my story it gives me pain
I just can쳌ft listen to that song again
Without thinking of that blunder alimentary
Which I heard about in a documentary

I was down at a folk club where the admission's cheap
Someone sang Lord Franklin and I fell asleep
Dreamed ten thousand pounds was freely given
By Lady Franklin, who'd not seen the television

Franklin didn쳌ft die from the effects of lead
I think the beans did for him instead
I think he exploded in the arctic air
And punched a big hole in the ozone layer!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Charmion
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:34 AM

Har, har.

Relics of the Franklin expedition still turn up occasionally in the Arctic Archipelago. People who should know better bring them south as curiosities despite strict laws against disturbing archaeological sites.

Years ago, I was shown a shoebox containing, among other things, shreds of boot-leather and rusted food cans with their lids and bottoms swollen from decomposition gases. The cans had all been opened with a crude tool, probably a spike.

These items were recovered from a cache on King William Island, and kept as a grisly trophy. They sure gave me the shudders.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: JeffB
Date: 19 May 10 - 12:26 PM

Hi Norman D,

I've always assumed that Lady Franklin's Lament was the older song, simply because it's more developed and a lot of its phrases are in Lord Franklin, but never had any proof. Do you know when they appeared?

While on the subject, can you tell me where the tunes come from? I sing the Lament to the the melody of Lord Franklin because I don't particularly enjoy the Lament's sturdy hymn-like tune. I wonder how many others do the same.

In 1984 the graves of several sailors were re-discovered on Beechy Island, which is just off the SW tip of Devon Island, by a team from the University of Alberta. One grave was opened for forensic examination. By an astonishing co-incidence, the scientist flown in to supervise the operation was a direct descendent of the sailor.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Dunc McF (cookieless)
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:01 PM

BBP,
The chorus (that we tack on to our version of LF),
is from Stan R's song 'North West Passage'.
It gives our version a big 'grandiose' finish..... we say!

Of course you like it 'best' BBP - you're our most devoted fan!
- bless ya!

Oddly enough, I've only recently sent a copy to a lady in Canada who
asked to use our version at some meeting/conference/talk that she's
attending/prersenting over there ( sometime soon) which is all about NWP/Franklin.
Now this thread unearth's the Beeb are doing summat too - is it Franklin 'season'?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Dunc again...
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:17 PM

Just checked...
All 7 mins of our version still on our band myspace
...if anyone fancies the trip!
click here to find the NW passage! ;0)

Cheers - Dunc McF

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:58 PM

Hmm, thought I posted it before, but I guess it didn't stick: no online access to the program for those on the left side of the pond. :-(

~ Becky in Long Beach (left of the Atlantic Pond, that is...)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 02:00 PM

Oops... wrong thread! It was the Trafalgar Surgeon TV show that I couldn't get online. Usually radio does better than TV for international access. Hope this one comes through.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 20 May 10 - 02:43 AM

Franklin season?. Please, don't shoot the poor soul as well!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 May 10 - 02:58 AM

Is ther a song about John Rae, though?

IMO much more "gallant" (and competent!) than Franklin, and hounded into obscurity and penury by Lady Franklin and her supporters for daring to present in a report the evidence he'd found that some of Franklin's party resorted to cannibalism at the end.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,keith A o Hertford
Date: 20 May 10 - 05:49 AM

Thanks for spotting the programme Rain Dog.
Jeff B, I expect that you know of the tune being shared with McCafferty, (McCaffrey etc.)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: JeffB
Date: 20 May 10 - 11:52 AM

Keith A,

Oh yes, so it does! Thanks - stupid of me not to have made the connection.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 May 10 - 01:25 PM

Followed the BBC link and found a major error of fact: The story says that the ships were lost with all hands. they were actually abandoned although the crew did die on the trek to seek help. As cited, it was from various causes, including poinoning and human action.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 10 - 03:18 PM

Excellent programme. Things are looking up in folk broadcasting: two recent progs(this and the shanty TV thing the other day) completely failed to cause me to throw things at the screen and curse grumpily. Which is what nornmmally happens when I hear folk broadcasts.
Well done Julian. And well done Martin Carthy for singing the song so magnificently to start with, which set the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 10 - 03:23 PM

Stan.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 20 May 10 - 04:35 PM

One of my most prized possessions is an actual letter written by Sir John Franklin in 1844,to another adventurer,Parry,the year before he sailed on his last expedition.
The song gets it wrong - he wasnt a lord.It was a broadside ballad of course,whose verbosity was pared down through the traditional process, until it became the simple but sublime song we know now.
Even though no-one could accuse him of being a singer, I like John Renbourn's version of the song, that he used to do with Pentangle.you dont really need a good voice to sing this song well - you need something else.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 May 10 - 05:09 PM

OT but does anyone know much about Tom Crean of Shakelton expedition. Might be part of my family tree. mg

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:15 PM

I've just listened on BBC iPlayer. At one point there is a comment on how the perspective in the song changes, the first verse being from the point of view of a sailor swinging in his hammock, and the last verse from that of Lady Franklin.

Cyril Tawney had a version (I don't know where from) with the second verse forming a link:
And as we neared old England's shore
I saw a lady in deep deplore.
She wept aloud, and she seemed to say
"Alas, my Franklin is long away".

Richard

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,seaJane
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:41 PM

Guest - masses of stuff on Tom Crean in the National Maritime Museum
click here

Dammit. Missed the programme though I noticed it earlier in the week. Was cataloguing a whole batch of reports on the expeditions to search for Franklin not so long ago.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:41 AM

A gem of an interlude.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Gutcher
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:22 AM

To get a real insight into the character of Franklin & Lady F.
I would recommend that you should read a book called "The Fatal
Shore".

JOHN RAE an Artic Explorer,who in a period of some 18years never
lost a man, was blackballed & vilified by the London Establishment
for telling the truth, a truth that they could not bear to hear.
This appears to be a character flaw in the race even unto this day.

I was just telling Jeff Warner last weekend how JOHN PAUL JONES
received the same treatment, at an earlier date, for having the
temerity to beat them at their own,much vaunted, game.

My friend, the late Dr,Jerry Crean,nephew of Tom Crean used to tell of his uncles exploits during his 3 voyages to the Antartic.He also mentioned that Tom was prepared for a 4th. voyage when his new wife put her foot down & refused to let him go.
Jerry was 17 when his uncle died.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:38 AM

I would also recommend the very readable "Barrow's Boys" by Fergus Fleming which covers in considerable detail the whole North-west passage episode from 1816-1850(ish)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:24 PM

FWIW my version culled from various sources including broadsides.
Usual McCafferty tune accompanying self on Anglo
Lady Franklin's Lament

Twas homeward bound one night on the deep
Swinging in my hammock I fell asleep,
I dreamed a dream and I thought it true,
concerning Franklin and his gallant crew.

I dreamed we neared the Humber shore,
I heard a maiden who did deplore,
She cried aloud and semed to say
Alas 'Alas my husband he is long away.

Long time it is since he left the shore,
To cross the ocean where the billows roar
To seek a passage around the pole,
Where these poor seamen do seldom go.

With a hundred seamen he sailed away,
To cross the ocean in the month of May,
Where the Eskimo in his skin canoe,
was the only one that ever came through.

In Baffin Bay where the whalefish blow,
The fate of franklin no man may know,
The fate of Franklin no tongue can tell,
Lord Franklin along with his sailors do dwell.

There's Captain Thompson from Scarborough town,
Brave Griffin and Parry of great renown,
There's Captain Ross and so many more,
Have long been searching the Arctic shore.

And now my burden it gives me pain,
For my longlost Franklin I'd cross the main,
ten-thousand pounds would I freely give
To know on earth that my Franklin do live.'

(Sometimes repeat first v)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:27 PM

Re John Rae, Orcadian doctor and explorer, who went out to try and find what had happened to Franklin: his effigy lies in St Magnus Cathedral, Kirkwall, Orkney. His life story has been chronicled by Ken McGoogan in his book "Fatal Passage", and unfortunately John Rae was totally discredited by Queen Victoria's government for daring to suggest that Franklin's party had had to resort to cannibalism - based on evidence brought to Rae by his Inuit co-explorers.
And Rob Naylor there IS a fabulous song about John Rae, written by Edinburgh songwriter, Gill Bowman.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Genie
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:13 PM

Yet another take on "The Franklin Expedition" - adapted by our own Micca Patterson for the 2010 FSGW Getaway (since most of the audience wouldn't "get" the references to various and sundry places in the UK).

Micca at Getaway - The Franklin Expedition


Do I understand, correctly, that the writer of the original (trad.) song is unknown?

Genie

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM

From next week, BBC2 will be repeating "Due South" which features the Stan Rodgers song in the final episode (hopefully without some idiotic announcer chattering over it like they used to do on ITV3)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM

Genie, see this thread for the Les Barker lyrics which Micca adapted for his performance:

Lyr Req: Lord Franklin parody

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Nick
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:41 PM

Steve

Never heard anyone sing the "Captain Thompson" verse - is it widely done

I came to it from John Renbourn/Pentangle

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 09:10 PM

Lyr. Add: Lady Franklin's Lament for Her Husband
Broadside ballad, Murray Coll., Glasgow; 19th C., 2nd half

You seamen bold, that have oft withstood,
Wild storms of Neptune's briny flood,
Attend to these few lines which I now will name,
And put you in mind of a sailor's dream.
2
As homeward bound, one night on the deep,
Slung in my hammock, I fell fast asleep;
I dream't a dream which I thought was true,
Concerning Franklin and his brave crew.
3
I thought as we near'd to the Humber shore,
I heard a female that did deplore;
She wept aloud,and seem'd to say,
Alas! my Franklin is long away.
4
Her mind it seem'd in sad distress,
She cried aloud, I can take no rest;
Ten thousand pounds, I would freely give,
To say on earth that my husband lives.
5
Long time it is since two ships of fame,
SDid bear my husband across the main,
With 100 seamen with courage stout,
To find a North Western pasage out.
6
With 100 seamen with hearts so bold,
I fear have perish'd with frost and cold;
Alas! she cried all my life I'll mourn,
Since Franklin seems never to return.
7
For since that time seven years are past,
And many a keen and bitter blast,
Blows o'er the grave where the poor seamen fell,
Whose dreadful sufferings no tongue can tell.
8
To find a passage by the North Pole,
Where temperate wave and wild thunders roll,
Is more than any mortal man can do,
With hearts undaunted and courage true.
9
There's Captain Austin of Scarboro' town,
Brave Granville and Penny of much renoun,
With Captain Ross, and so many more,
Have long been searching the Arctic shore.
10
They sailed east, and they sailed west,
Round Greenland's coast they knew the best,
In hardships drear they have vainly strove,
On mountains of ice their ships were drove.
11
At Baffin's Bay where the whale fish blows,
The fate of Franklin nobody knows,
Which cause many a wife and child to mourn,
In grievous sorrow for their return.
12
These sad forbodings they give me pain,
For the long lost Franklin across the main;
Likewise the fate of so many before,
Who have left their homes to return no more.

Anon., probably written for a a shilling for a broadside publisher.
(The 1851 date mentioned above, in MS., is on another song pasted to the same sheet, and probably does not pertain to the Franklin verse).

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Next year, regular shipping by Russian ships probably will be passing through the Northwest Passage. Nuclear power stations are being built by the Russians for the exploration of the Arctic Ocean's supposed rich oil and gas deposits; they will be floated into Arctic waters and fixed at needed positions.

It seems pretty well-established that Franklin and the last of his men perished from lead solder in the food cans they carried with them. (See above). Franklin's body has not yet been found, but crewmen exhumed from the icy graves show strong evidence of lead poisoning.

Franklin was knighted for earlier exploits, thus Sir John, but he was not a hereditary lord.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM

..."Nuclear power stations are being built by the Russians for the exploration of the Arctic Ocean's supposed rich oil and gas deposits; they will be floated into Arctic waters and fixed at needed positions.
"...

Please do elaborate on this statement!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:00 AM

Never heard anyone sing the "Captain Thompson" verse - is it widely done?


That verse occurs in some broadside versions, identifying some of the skippers involved in the various search expeditions. The only recording I've heard which includes it is by Paul Clayton.

The names vary, inevitably. My own version is:

"There's Captain Osborne of Scarborough town
Brave Parry and Winslow of high renown
There's Captain Ross and so many more
In vain they've searched round the Arctic shore"

I seem to remember that "Winslow" should actually be "Ounslow".

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:13 AM

yes guest above ,i have that version too, plus the verse
god help the widows who sorely weep
for the loss of husbands drowned at sea.
they left their homes like many more
to die alone on a far distant shore

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM

Nick,
My version is a mishmash based on all the versions I've heard over the years but the searchers verse probably came direct from a broadside. Yes I'm sure Q is right that it was written for a shilling by a printer's hack.

Franklin was originally, as a young man, a landbased explorer in Canada and went through great deprivations on expeditions to the north. I have several contemporary books on these early expeditions and the later sea-based ones, and indeed some of the books written on the searches. I seem to remember he was also as a boy present at the Battle of Copenhagen.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

Effsee, the BBC news (on cable here, Calgary), carried pictures of the power plants being built, and of the large Russian icebreaker that went through the Passage this summer.
Also briefly mentioned was the research being done by the Norwegians prior to exploration of their portion of the Arctic Ocean.

See article and video of "Arctic Trail blazers make history," about Russian icebreaker leading two German freighters through the NW Passage.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8264345.stm

The article doesn't mention the power stations. I will look at the video in a few minutes to see if they are mentioned there.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:24 PM

Found the article and video on the floating nuclear power stations for the Arctic-

Floating Arctic Nuclear Stations

Should Canadians be afraid they will be left out and ignored?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:52 PM

My God Q! The people who gave us Cherbobyl are gonna float these in the Arctic...thanks for the links (I think).

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

This novel may be of interest... it's long but weirdly fascinating.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 10:13 PM

The novel by Simmons is fantasy, but it is interesting in parts. At 769 pages, it is way too long.
I paged through it, reading parts, but fantasy is not my cup of tea.
See NY Times Book Review, "Ice Men," by Terrence Rafferty, March 18, 2007.

A book that held my interest is Lady Franklin's Revenge, by Ken McGoogan. The title is an exaggeration, but this bit from the dust jacket gives an idea of what this factual book is about-

"When her husband, Sir John Franklin, disappeared into the Arctic in 1845, in a misguided attempt to discover the final link in the Northwest Passage, she orchestrated an unprecedented twelve-year search. Though she failed to rescue Franklin, she contributed more to the discovery of the North than any celebrated explorer, and turned failure into triumph by creating a legend that has survived to this day."

Too little known, Lady Franklin was the greatest woman traveler of her time. Her extensive diaries disclose much about the British Empire in the 19th century.
She circumnavigated the globe, sailed up the Nile, and covered part of the Middle East by donkey. Australia, Van Dieman's Land, South Pacific, Hawai'i, etc., etc. A fascinating, if frustrating, woman.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:25 AM

His daughter was not at all happy that Lady F squandered the family fortune in her futile searches.
Ten thousand pounds she would not have freely given.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:31 AM

Keith A

The "wicked stepmother" syndrome, in this case. Once Franklin was officially dead, his late first wife's fortune would pass to his daughter... IIRC, her husband was particularly cross!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:03 AM

Only the great white polar bear knows where Lord Franklin's bones lie.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

For the benefit of our American Cousins ;

       British Peers (Lords) in order of precedence ;

       1) Duke (as in Duke of Edinburgh); Female, Duchess
      
         2) Marquis ( as in Marquis of Bath ) ; Female, Marchioness

         3) Earl (as in Earl of Wessex) ; Female, Countess.

          4) Viscount (as in Viscount Cowdray ) ;Female,Viscountess
      
          5) Baron ( as in Baron Harkonnen !) ; Female, Baroness

            These are all "Lords & Ladies", if you will.In practice,these terms are more often used semi-informally ; I grew up in the household of Viscount Cowdray, but he was always known just as "Lord Cowdray". Below these are Baronets, minor Provincial Peers,created to rule Ulster,Nova Scotia,etc, who are NOT entitled to be called "Lord", oddly ! Example ; Sir John Smith,Bart. (the abbreviation for "Baronet").Wife, Lady Smith.
      Last we have the Knights ; Sir John Franklin, Kt. ( Abbr for Knight).Wife, Lady Franklin.
    Bob Geldof ,Kt, holds an HONORARY Knighthood, and,being Irish,is NOT entitled to be addressed as "Sir Bob", under ANY circumstances. Sir John Franklin was merely (!!) a Knight, NOT a Lord.
   Hope that clarifies things !
                   The Duke of Earl.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:46 AM

Oh yes, and just to confuse things, it is quite possible for someone to hold different titles in different ranks, for example ;

The Heir to the British Throne, Prince Charles, is also ;
      Prince of Wales

       Duke of Cornwall

       Duke of Sutherland

         Earl of Carrick

          Earl of Chester

          Baron Renfrew

                  Lord Of The Isles

            Great Steward Of Scotland

       which means that technically, Camilla is a double Duchess, a double Countess, and a Baroness ; how greedy can you get ?? !!      
          Baron Hardon

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

Sorry Bubblyrat - there is no title of 'Marquis' in the UK - it's 'Marquess', as in the Marquess of Bath.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:45 PM

While I'm at it......Baronets are not peers - they have never been able to sit in the House of Peers (Lords). They are hereditary knights, i.e. when they die their eldest son takes on the 'Sir' title. With 'ordinary' knights like Cliff Richard, the title dies with them. One of Mrs Thatcher's more clever tricks was to resurrect baronetcies and give one to her husband, thus her son is now Sir Mark Thatcher, second baronet.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

Yes Terry....as I said,they (Baronets) are not entitled to be called Lord, since they cannot sit in the house of Lords (which is what I should have added !). But they WERE created to be "Peers" of a kind,in order to provide a "ruling class" for some Provinces .The word "Baronet" is,I believe,possibly a corruption of "Banneret",but then you'd know better than I , obviously.
                   As to Marquis or Marquess, I don't think it REALLY matters that much,does it ??

             The Dook of Oil (as they say in Chicago)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM

Even more confusing - the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster (not Duchess)!