An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

Listening to an enjoyable Travelling Folk (BBC Radio Scotland) last
Saturday night, I was reminded of this Message from my website:
"On the B.B.C., I've heard, and appreciated, two lots of Scottish but
no English or Welsh folk awards"...?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:08 AM

Ah, Dave, why do you hurt me so?
Shades of Roger Gall here...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

Frankly, I don't know of Roger Gall, George..?..and I don't understand how an English junior and senior folk awards - to match what they already have in Scotland - would "hurt" you..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:29 AM

And an English award for going on....and on.....and on.....and on.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

There is a great deal that you don't understand, WAV, as your previous marathon threads here have made all too clear. Go away and read some of Roger's marathon threads (you can find them via the search engine, under his appropriate pseudonym of 'The Shambles') and then come back; if you still have the will after the months it will require.

My main worry is that you won't see why there was ever a problem.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

Was, RG, too, trooping English folk music, MD?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Voteno
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:49 AM

Why? The usual suspects would win all of the awards in a mutual slap on the back ritual. Besides, the Carthy clan must have run out of mantelpiece space by now. So, NO!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

Here we go again WAV...........take your abhorrent ideas elsewhere.

As always an innocent enough thread title (nothing wrong with English Folk Awards) but how long before you start to peddle your foul, racist crap?

Why do you persist? Most Mudcatters have you sussed......and I for one don't want to read your drivel any longer, do you understand (or care about)the damage that you are doing to the "folk" movement by posting your rubbish on open an open forum like this?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

Read some of those threads, WAV, as I suggested, if you want to understand what George meant. Don't expect me to summarise or explain them for you. Off you go, now.

'Awards' are a marketing exercise, and pretty meaningless in the end, whatever the category.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:12 AM

OK, Dave, in the best "'Allo, 'Allo" tradition, "I will say zis only vunce":

It is not the existence of any English Folk Awards that would hurt me, but your persistence in certain directions, which only serves to disillusion me. You see, when we first came across each other here and on mySpace, I thought innocently that there were some touch-points between us. Because in my 19 years on this island, and with the help of the English rose that shared 35 years with me and the many friends I made here, I learned more than the language; I got to understand the culture(s) here, the good and the bad, and they are second nature to me now (plagiarising Prof Higgins here).

My own existence in two cultures made me question early on where do I stand myself, what am I. The answer I came up with is "in both places", in other words I love, and am proud of, both my inherited and my adopted cultures. I would neither abandon my Greekness, neither would I shun my learned "Englishness". And from that I made the logical step that one ought to remain proud of their own culture, even while they recognise their less savoury aspects and try to correct them.

So, some of your early statements of belief found ready-ploughed ground in me. But not long afterwards I realised that you were prepared to go much further than I was, in order to recognise, celebrate and preserve what you profess to hold dear. And also that the English culture you refer to contains a number of "romantic" (perhaps mythical) elements, which I, of course, coming into it as an 18 year old, did not inherit or adopt. We may both use the words "Englishness", "preserve" etc, but our perspectives are different. Furthermore, you have proved very insistent (a-la-Roger Gall) both in trying to persuade others of your views, and amazingly impervious to the arguments of others (I am referring to the less scatological ones here, though I do actually like catspaw and frequently smirk when he calls a spade a shovel).

Extremism is often not a matter of beliefs, but of degree. And I find that the degrees to which you seem to be prepared to go, or at least that you advocate, truly foreign to me. Furthermore, I fear that extremist ideas, as they polarise the world around them, effectively muzzle reasonableness.

It is therefore the danger to reason that I mourn. And also my mistaken initial belief that we shared a common understanding on the subject of English culture and what to do (and what NOT to do) in its interest.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:16 AM

Sorry - extra "neither" above; but I cook a mean souvlaki.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:41 AM

English Folk Awards - Results

Best traditional song sung in a funny voice - Martin Carthy

Best traditional guitar style invented by Martin Carthy - M. Carthy

Best Traditional Group - Any with Martin Carthy in it.

Lifetime Achievement Award - Martin Carthy

Best Female Performer - Anyone who can say, "My name is Carthy," Carthy

The Martin Carthy Award For Being Martin Carthy - No surprise here - Yes, it's our very own Martin Carthy.

And so on.............

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

On a good stone one can grind many axes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

Obviously. Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

But for some reason many will call it racist to say so.

I am not sure what criteria used to be applied at the sadly defunct National. I know there used to be an award for the best unaccompanied performance of a traditional folk song but I am not aware whether it was categorised by nationality or whether the traditional songs of England Ireland Scotland and Wales and/or other places were all equally eligible.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM

At risk of getting drawn into yet another fruitless argument...

"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

I find this claim frankly bizarre. On what evidence do you base this?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Mike Hunt
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:15 AM

That WalkaboutsVerse, 'e just don't get it do 'e

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:19 AM

He ought to go walkabout for a year or two, I can't make my mind up if it's deliberate or he really is that crass and stupid.

eric

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

To Howard - tonight, as often, I will enjoy a bit of Take the Floor (nearly all Scottish dance music), then Celtic Heartbeat (with plenty of Welsh songs and tunes), then Travelling Folk (with plenty more Scottish folk); as for English folk from the BBC, I'll have to wait until Wednesday for the relatively low percentage we get from Mike Harding; so, sadly, it is as Richard and I are saying, and there IS a need for change.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

English Folk Awards? In a word, no I don't think so.
There is an attempt to highjack the English Tradition by certain right wing elements, for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

If someone would like to characterise the definitive English traditional song I'll listen, till then it's songs from England (which may well be half Scots, Irish, French, Zzzzzzz......). I ain't buying the poor old England guff because it nearly always comes with an agenda and a colour chart.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

I don't think many would argue that the BBC could do better when it comes to coverage of folk music of any sort. But Mike Harding is not the only offering, there's Genevieve Tudor's programme on Radio Shropshire for example. There's also The Music Well aka Britfolk.

But to argue that "English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated" on the basis of the BBC's deficiencies just doesn't follow.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

And we used to get "Northern Folk" on a Sunday night, Howard, until it was axed by the Beeb a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

And I think I play a rich variety of music on "Thank Goodness It's Folk".

Read the mudcat thread with that title and it will direct you to the programme.

See the playlist at www.myspace.com/davepeyre

But I have to warn you there is some Scottish and Irish in there.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

Aye dave but you'll also be scrutinised for what is and what is not folk. I've looked at your great playlists and can see at least a couple of bands and their music who would not pass muster with WAV.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:29 PM

I was waiting for this. First off, who needs reminding of something they wrote on their own website. Second, WAV-do us a favor and post all of your "website" points now and get them over with. Third, everything you say is bullshit.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Dare I suggest a heavily supervised guided tour of Cecil Sharp House? This just begin to give you some basic understanding of what The Tradition is REALLY all about.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

A VERY funny post from GUEST,what'sthepoint, above. LOL is a rather overused term on forums like this; but for once, genuinely deserved in this case. And I actually LIKE most of Carthy's stuff.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

WAV once more spouts,"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

Right, I want to see actual academic proof that this so, and PLEASE don't dare link your 'proof' to your excrutiatingly bad 'verse'website. Does the Vaughn Williams Library at Cecil Sharp House have papers backing your claims? ummm...what about Newcastle University? The very excellent Yorkshire Garland data base? I'll try one more. What about Rod Stradling's absolutely wonderful Musical Traditions website, anything in the articlesthere?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

What a bunch of idiots. You can't correctly quote what I said, and you can't even correctly identify who said it.

If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against.

If I don't object to awards for Scottish folk music, and awards for Irish folk music, and there awards for Welsh folk music, why do you object to awards for English folk music?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

"you can't even correctly identify who said it."
Being that you're, in my opinion, completely interchangeable with WAV, the mistake on my part is understandable.

My question to YOU stands regardless. Let's see the proof, if you have any.

Then there are those folk who are seemingly obsessed with awards

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Since I didn't say what you said I said, there is no call for me to prove it. What I said was obvious (a quote from Lord Denning, if you like "All that I have said thus far is so obvious that it needs no authority").

Oh, and before you call me racist for saying that English music should be treated no less favourably than other British music, a quote from another thread (from WLD):

"Sonny Boy Williamson came to England and made an album with The Yardbirds. According to Clapton's biography, Williamson went straight back to the States, and said those English want to play the blues really badly, and that's how they play them - badly."

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Woa there Def, that wasn't WAV. But in any case, any discussion or grizzles along the lines of "they/government/others should do more about preserving a culture" versus "they are doing plenty already" actually misses the point in my book. And by a country mile, too.

Because it was no government and no policies that nurtured and developed the tunes and the songs we love, or the customs, the plays, the dances etc. It was individuals. At times lots of them, nowadays fewer perhaps, but that can only be our own fault - never a government's or an organisation's. So, if one feels that their culture is threatened, ferchrissake getyer finger out and DO something about it. The lecturers and the students at Newcastle, the staff and volunteers/members of EFDSS, countless performers like Coe, Kirkpatrick, Mary and Anahata (yes, Carthy too), Tickell, Collins, Swan and Dyer, Isambarde, Moray, Spiers & Boden, why, even Lakeman etc ARE doing something.

There is something laughable about demanding that the powers that be "do something" about a cultural expression that is supposed to be of and for the folk. At best, they can get out of the way; they cannot nurture it. It takes voices, and hands and legs and minds to do that. So if you feel that an English Folk Awards is needed, don't moan at the Beeb or Harding or Leonard - get out and organise one.

And I 'll gladly give you a hand.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

This IS getting tedious. Alright one one more time slllooowwwlly

YOU said, and here's the quote "Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

and I said prove it. You hid bhind, ohh it's obvious that what I've said is right, and then you quote some aristo. or other (the word pompous comes to mind here)

Sonny Boy Williamson II, was right, by the way.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Sorry George I was reading and doing something else at the same time. Anyway, yes, if you feel the English Tradition is so hard done by, Bridge, do something about it. George has pointed out those who have actuaally got their fingers out, I do my small part as well. Join us why don't you? Or do you prefer to sit on the side lines and whine?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Also, Def, you are perfectly welcome to your opinion that Richard B and WAV are completely interchangeable (and I thought I was the Greek drama queen!).

As indeed I am entitled to my own opinion that, with regards to this statement at least, you are wrong. Very wrong.

Anger and frustration are bad counsellors.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

Not based on anger, just observation, it takes more than the likes of Bridge and WAV to me angry, believe me. Drama, I dislike, it's waste of time, effort and energy, but as you say, you're entitled to your opinion.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

Cultural traditions of performance (but also literature and art) need an audience to survive. No audience and they die out. And of course they need performers and participants-who in turn need an income. An audience for live performance plays a role in sustaining a tradition that goes beyond being consumers who pay.

~~Much as I dislike the crypto-racism that underlies this thread, I think that recent cuts in arts council funding would be a more constructive target. By the same token, better arts funding will accomplish more than any 'award' scheme. (Awards did not keep the old ballads alive, sometimes in forms longer than any within these shores, in the Appalachians.)

As to National award schemes--they seem more or less like feeding wild animals the wrong kind of human food and risk spawning commercialism, standardization, whatnot.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:09 PM

Anyway, how do you define "English"? And how do you define "folk"??
(come on, it must be AGES since we last discussed this on here :))

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Another meaningless thread that spreads more heat than light. When will someone put a stop to this nonsense? Where is the discrimination against English music? Why do all WAVs threads have England or English in the title? Let's take a guess...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Send the baying hounds back to the kennel.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

It is correct to say that awards programmes don't keep the trad. arr. going, and the audiences (where are you?) and musicians do keep the music going. Send letters to the arts councils and other bodies, both local and national, and tell them what you think, because, you know what? Those arts councils aren't going to read any opinion published here, in these forums.

Again, I say, I worry about people who are seemingly obsessed with awards programmes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

I have been singing english traditional songs for over thirtyfive years .
I dont need awards,I do it because they are songs I enjoy singing.http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE
this is much better than arguing with Wav

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

More results - just in

Best 89 verse ballad or boring equivalent - WAV

Herman Goering School Of Self Righteous Dismissal As Racist Everything Anyone Has To Say With The Word English In It In A Folk Context - Def Shepard

Best Support Act - Richard Bridge

Henry Kissenger Award for Peace Keeping on a Folk Forum - George "the dove" Papavgeris

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Oh you missed

Person Least Able To Take Resonsibilty For Their Postings By Not Signing In - GUEST,What'sthepoint

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

Actually all I said was, I don't believe in an English Traditional Folk Awards programme, because I basically don't believe in awards programmes regardless of what nationality they are. The term a complete waste of time and money (money that could be better spent through grants and loans to arts communities).
and no, at no pint did I use the term racist, here GUEST borrow my spare pair of ~O^O~ :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

"If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against."

No it isn't, it just means it's not possible to win a meaningless trophy for it. That isn't discrimination; it could just as logically be interpreted as respect.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

But, Henry, there are, always held within the borders of England, British Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

Kissinger? KISSINGER? I am deeply hurt, offended, pissed off and otherwise unhappy. So much, that I am going to pour myself a whiskey and watch something subversive, like Magic Roundabout.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

There is no such animal as the British Folk Awards, the award programmes hosted by the BBC is simply called the Radio 2 Folk Awards, there is no nationality mentioned anywhere. The same goes for The Young Folk Awards
actually this year at the Folk Awards, Julie Fowlis (Best Folk Singer) and Lau (best group) are from Scotland. John Tams & Barry Coope(Best Duo) are English, Martin Simpson, Kate Rusby, Jez Lowe, Martin Carty, Eliza Carthy, all English, and given the rest of the nominees etc., the balance seems to hang very much in favour of England. So.....