BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland

Subject: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: GUEST,Ron Edwards
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 01:56 PM

I guess thet the USA will be involved in Iraq like the brits are involved in Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:43 PM

No. The difference is that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom so, unlike Iraq, the presence of British troops there is perfectly legal.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:38 PM

Both places start with IR.............

IRAQ, IRAN............

If Bush is playing happy families.....IRELAND would give him three of a kind.

I'd watch out over there in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

And it hasn't done the Brits a whole hell of a lot of good over time.....

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:29 PM

The thing I find odd is that many in the US supported bombers from Ireland as "freedom fighters" even though the war of conquest by England on Ireland was won (in the sense that the English were the major military power on the ground) in the 1600s or before - but now at least the official US line is that those in Iraq seeking by bombs to repel an invading army are terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:06 PM

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It depends on where you are looking from.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: GUEST,Jackie Doyle
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM

Richard, Big difference is many of those of us in the States are from Irish backgrounds, arrived here starving due to the British inspired famine in Ireland, (wheat and corn shipped from Ireland to England).

Ask those living in Aden, India or South Africa their opinion of British rule and you may also find they refer to them as terrorists.

Yes the struggle in Ireland was funded from the States, just like in Iraq, to remove a government responsible for crimes against it's people. European courts of Human Justice upheld the cases brought against Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:45 PM

"Big difference is many of those of us in the States are from Irish backgrounds, arrived here starving due to the British inspired famine in Ireland."

Well not according to Cecil Woodham-Smith's history "The Great Hunger", which is regarded by most acedemics as being the definitive history of the famine of 1847 to 1851. The bulk of emmigration at that time was to Canada as passage was free on UK registered vessels. Anyone wanting to travel directly to the US had to pay their passage, be in sound health and had to prove that they had at least £10 in cash or assets prior to boarding.

I would draw attention to the organisation known as the Commonwealth of Nations, the second largest international organisation after the United Nations. The Commonwealth of Nations is not listed as a terrorist organisation. Countries with no previous connection (historical or political) to the United Kingdom have applied to join Rwanda, Yemen and Cambodia.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:47 PM

"I guess thet the USA will be involved in Iraq like the brits are involved in Northern Ireland"

I don't think so.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:53 PM

Not even Bush wants to consider Iraq part of the US.   The parallel with Northern Ireland does not hold. Bush just wants to be able to claim "victory" before the US leaves Iraq--no matter how many "Coalition" soldiers or Iraqis have to die so that he can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:15 AM

Those that can't or won't see a difference; I'm not sending you to the store to buy the milk, might come home with an elephant & no change.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 02:18 AM

I suppose if you've never owned a passport - both places look virtually identical.

I wonder if there are any other countries who would value your wise intervention. The idea of arming Saddam Hussein and the IRA were resounding successes - a sort of double whammy - a modern democracy in Iraq and a United Ireland. A couple of real masterstrokes

Congratulations by the way, on achieving the perfect society in your own country. One can see how it would make you impatient to export that demi paradise to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:08 AM

The misconception that former British colonies bear some kind of grudge keeps arising.
We have the warmest relations with them and they remain in what was until recently called The British Commonwealth.

Iraq is a poor analogy to Ireland.
What we did was to annexe, by force of arms, a nearby piece of territory.
A better analogy was the seizure by the USA, by force of arms, of the territories of California, Texas and New Mexico.
Since you did that in 19th century, it ill behaves Americans to get on their moral high horse about what England did nearly a thousand years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:39 AM

behoves.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM

...or there is the example of the Phillipines, a tale of courage, honour and fairmindedness known to every American schoolchild.

There had been an active campaign by many Filipinos against the Spanish colonial powers in the last two decades of the 19th century, which had ended in an uneasy truce.

Then came the Spanish American war - that noble conflict promoted by the yellow journalism of Hearst and Pullitzer and catalysed by fake telegrams. It was a conflict notable for plans drawn up by the US Navy to invade the Phillipines a year before war was actually declared (sound familiar?).

When it broke out, the guerilla leader Emilio Aguinaldo returned to the Phillipines from exile in Hong Kong to take up arms once again against the Spanish to win independence In this he was actively encouraged by the US.

The war was short-lived and ended with the Phillipines being "bought" from the Spanish under the terms of the Treaty of Paris (along with Puerto Rico and Guam) and declared a US colony in 1898.

Once the war was over, however, the US was no longer willing to back Aguinaldo's calls for independence. The Phillipines was to be a colony of the proposed American Empire, and would not be allowed to rule themselves.

Tension came to a head in February 1899 when an American soldier shot a Filipino soldier who was crossing a bridge into Filipino-occupied territory in San Juan del Monte.
President William McKinley later told reporters "that the insurgents had attacked Manila" in justifying war on the Philippines. The Battle of Manila that followed resulted in 2000 casualties for Filipinos and 250 for the US forces. It marked the beginning of a brutal and bloody war of oppression by the US.

There was, however, no formal declaration of war. The US was anxious to call it an 'uprising' to make the conflict appear to be a rebellion against a lawful government.
Aguinaldo was captured after the battle of Tirad Pass in 1901 and threatened with death if he didn't swear allegiance to the US. Under duress Aguinaldo pledged allegiance to America on April 1, 1901, formally ending the First Republic and acknowledging the sovereignty of the US over the Philippines. In all, some 250,000 Filipinos are thought to have been killed.

The islands did not gain their independence until 1946.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:19 AM

Maybe it's time for the Native American Freedom Fighters to start blowing away the descendants of the terrorists who stole their land and committed genocide against their people - you know, the Brits, Irish, Scots, Italians, Spaniards, Germans, French, Poles, Chinese, Japanese, Viet-Namese, and any other f**king -ese you care to name, that now makes up the bastardised population of that once-great country?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:22 AM

Sorry, pressed the go button by mistake. Meant to finish with:-

The definition of 'Terrorist' depends very much on where you're looking at him from.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Alba
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:24 AM

Jackie there was a Famine due to the Potato Blight and the British played an very real roll in Irish History during this time.

Interesting perspective here, if anyone feels inclined to read it.

Irish Potato Famine
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:39 AM

Not really - we did it, as Lenny Bruce said about the Jews and the death of Christ - I think maybe there should be sort of statute of limitations.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Shaneo
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

A famine suggests insufficient amounts of food to feed a population.
As Ireland was exporting large amounts of grain, beef, and other food stuff to England during the great hunger then the situation could not be classed as a famine

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:42 AM

That's another one, like 'terrorist' that depends on where you're looking from - 'famine'. I bet the starving Irish viewed it as famine. Why split hairs now?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:37 PM

It was a horrendous situation and the English government didn't do enough. They acted like shits. They did that quite a lot. It wasn't treatment reserved for other races, the English people took a lot of stick also.

However, how sending a load of guns and bombs to Ireland was ever going to help Irish people sort out the fact that largeish portion of the population want to remain part of the United Kingdom, whilst most Irish people want Ireland to be independent is another matter.

If you wanted to make a worthwhile contribution to the debate - start a newspaper, or a TV station. They persuade better than guns. Offer a free set of Carry On DVDs and Ian Paisley would be saving up the vouchers for a United Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Den
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:30 PM

After all they were just a bunch of Paddy's, who'd miss them?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

Most governments handle disasters badly.
Witness Katrina.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:57 PM

Den, I have to ask, what prompted that outburst?

After all, for once, we've had an Irish-related thread thats got up to 20-odd posts without the usual acrimony, then you post that, as if somebody had said 'let them eat cake'.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

Queen Victoria sent ten pounds to Ireland during the famine to help the starving, says it all. Could she possibly have been a role model for Margaret Thatcher ?

Well done America.

Well, in eighteen and fourteen we took a little trip
along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississippi.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans,
And we caught the bloody British near the town of New Orleans.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, I see'd Mars Jackson walkin down the street
talkin' to a pirate by the name of Jean Lafayette [pronounced La-feet]
He gave Jean a drink that he brung from Tennessee
and the pirate said he'd help us drive the British in the sea.

The French said Andrew, you'd better run,
for Packingham's a comin' with a bullet in his gun.
Old Hickory said he didn't give a dang,
he's gonna whip the britches off of Colonel Packingham.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, we looked down the river and we see'd the British come,
and there must have been a hundred of 'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made their bugles ring
while we stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
if we didn't fire a musket til we looked 'em in the eyes.
We held our fire til we see'd their faces well,
then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave a yell.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, we fired our cannon til the barrel melted down,
so we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls and powdered his behind,
and when they tetched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

We'll march back home but we'll never be content
till we make Old Hickory the people's President.
And every time we think about the bacon and the beans,
we'll think about the fun we had way down in New Orleans.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin,
But there wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast the hounds couldn't catch 'em
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
But there wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in NI
From: Den
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 02:08 PM

If you have to ask Paul there's a good chance you wouldn't understand the answer. My bet is you don't need to ask.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

Who would miss them........?

Well its not as though I'm advocating moving the place....its still going to be there. Its still only going to be 40 quid from East Midlands Airport. Theres still going to be thousands of Irish people in every English city. there could still be Irish regiments within the British army even.

But if you don't sort out some sort of better coexistence agreement between the two sets of people in Ireland - something that satisfies everybody - the tories will be getting in before long, and they will be crawling to the unionists to preserve their electoral majority and once more the feelings will get hurt, the shit will hit the fan and angry words and worse will fly once more.

wartime and sentimental versions of history produce some catchy songs like the Jimmy Driftwood piece, but try bloody singing when you're digging the arms and legs out of someplace where a bombs gone off. If it were happening in an American town, you wouldn't be such a quick smartarse handing out the arms to anybody dumb and cruel enough to use them.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM

Well said, WLD.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:20 AM

Right on the button WLD.

When you're 5,000 miles from Ireland, sitting out on the front porch eating mom's apple pie, overpaid, undertaxed and brainwashed, it's dead easy to be an armchair critic and send money to fuel a civil war that will never result in your own physical harm.

If those pricks cared so much about The Owld Country, why were they so hell-bent on ensuring the early and violent deaths of so many of its inhabitants?

In the history of the USA, their en

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:22 AM

.... as I was saying, their involvement in ensuring the longevity of the 'Troubles' is a very black episode indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:20 AM

Sure: The Americans did eventually defeat the British but let's face it; the enemy had to cross the broad Atlantic in wooden boats and there weren't really that many of them. Could've done it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:11 AM

No point in looking back.....but the future is worrying. Cameron is alot more personable than Brown. You can see the tories getting in, and you can see that he can't muzzle that awful right wing of his party who are always squaring up the Irish, the trade unions, the idea of full employment, and looking for ways to pillage the public services for their mates.

I just wish all the parties concerned would show some sense of urgency in settling this question.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:50 AM

1) Keith--"behooves"

2) I'd like to assure our UK posters that many Americans don't subscribe to the twisted history and twisted attitudes of "Jackie Doyle"--we make no excuses for the funding by US citizens of terror in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:00 PM

Regarding the potato famine and the British contribution to the starving people why did the London Times take delight in the Irish peoples plight by headling, "Soon an Irishman will be as rare on the banks of the Shannon, as an Indian on the Hudson".

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:31 PM

typical shit stirring racist response to an Irish thread....

I would say open your history books. look up Tonypandy, Pentridge, Tollpuddle, the 84 miners strike, the General Strike of '26......

The English ruling class isn't a uniquely Irish problem.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:49 PM

I see Gordon Brown has come out as a unionist.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

Ard--


Where is your proof that the London Times quote, even if accurate--(no source was given)--was meant to "take delight" in the lack of Irishmen on the Shannon? And was that the official view of the newspaper? If a headline--why do you not think it was just reporting news--in the way a newspaper seeks to grab your attention?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:42 PM

It probably was Ron. their attitudes were quite as foul as Ard has said. However, the sort of deranged racist bitching that goes on in these threads is not going to butter any parsnips.

If we stop going at each other like a terrier after a rat - who knows, perhaps we might come up with an idea that helps the situaion - instead of making it look more impossible than it appears already.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:58 AM

Ard, the vast majority of people on the UK mainland have no problem with the Irish. Please don't assume that the attitudes of a toffe-nosed newspaper from two centuries ago are indicative of Joe Public-UK's views today.

Most of us want an end to your problems, troops out and happy days for the Irish. Sadly, some of our politicians and some of your countrymen are determined it will never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:45 AM

'Our countrymen' don't necessarily feel that they're our countrymen, Strollin'.

Some historical background to how this all came about.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: GUEST,Taffy
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:22 AM

Littleweedrummer, there was no English government during the Irish famine, it dissappeared more than a hundred years beforehand (1707), cancelling England's status as a nation state.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

Ah, thanks for that bombshell, Guest Taffy.

So, where does that leave us now, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:00 AM

'Littleweedrummer, there was no English government during the Irish famine, .....'


I don't understand that. I usually think of the famine, they taught us about in junior school in England as black '49 and 1848. they taught us also about England's shamefully inadequate response.

It was a cruel age when they hanged and transported people for not very much, and sent little kids to work down coalmines and up chimneys. there was much casual cruelty everywhere that most citizens (most of whom were hardly living high on the hog) were desensitised to.

There was a government. Are we talking at cross purposes - the above is what I think I'm talking about......?

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:12 AM

Ron Davies is right I misquoted the London Times, what it said in an editorial was, "soon a Celt in Ireland will be as rare as a red Indian on the streets of Manhattan", and Ron if you take the time and Google, "The great Irish famine" , you can read all of this editorial.
While you are on the Site read of the Penal Laws, quite an eye-opener for anyone ignorant of the most draconian laws ever instituted.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:20 AM

According to this site http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/irish-faq/part06/
Queen Victoria made a personal contribution to famine relief of £2000, and not £5.
One of the English charities who contributed raised over £450 000.
If all correct it suggests that the Engish cared more than Ard thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

Some interesting information there Keith, & gives the lie somewhat to the prevailing opinion (which I held too) that the British Govt. had been overwhelmingly indifferent to the crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

'Russell's government can be justly accused of callousness,
        miserliness, negligence, ignorance, slowness, fickleness,
        complacency and fatalism. Unlike genocide, this does not
        amount to murder.'

sounds like murder to me

PS There was a government, then!

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

WLD - was he making the point that it was a British, not English, government? I'm not sure about it, but it's a possibility.
Johnny the Peacemaker.

Subject: RE: BS: USA and the brits in Northern Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM

Yes they were a really caring nation Keith, population drop from 8 million to 2 1/2 within 8 years, did you go to that Site I outlined, very good information, there will be a lot you will learn, try it.