Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

I don't know how Blair and Bush can sleep at night.
I have no time for Saddam Hussein and his henchmen or the terrorists. They are pure evil.

However, I cannot get over what Blair & Bush have done to Iraq as a country. So many innocent people killed and their country left ruined.
The damage is done and I feel really sorry for all the poor "innocent" people who through no fault of their own are left to bear the cross.

I do hope for everybody's sake that Iraq can be sorted out sooner than later. Its no good Bush and Blair turning their backs on these people, they have a big debt to pay.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

A quote from reporter Robert Fisk's piece in today's Independent :

The Iraqis had used, for the first time, a combination - the nerve gas would paralyse their bodies ... the mustard gas would drown them in their own lungs. That's why they spat blood."

At the time, the Iranians claimed that this terrible cocktail had been given to Saddam by the US. Washington denied this. But the Iranians were right. The lengthy negotiations which led to America's complicity in this atrocity remain secret - Donald Rumsfeld was one of President Ronald Reagan's point-men at this period - although Saddam undoubtedly knew every detail. But a largely unreported document, "United States Chemical and Biological Warfare-related Dual-use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War", stated that prior to 1985 and afterwards, US companies had sent government-approved shipments of biological agents to Iraq. These included Bacillus anthracis, which produces anthrax, andEscherichia coli (E. coli). That Senate report concluded that: "The United States provided the Government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-systems programs, including ... chemical warfare agent production facility plant and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

and he ends the article with this:

"The whole truth died with Saddam Hussein in the Baghdad execution chamber yesterday. Many in Washington and London must have sighed with relief that the old man had been silenced for ever."

Thats the only reason I am saddened by the death of Saddam.

If he had been tried for the deaths of the Kurds, the U.S. would have been implicated.

The manufacture, sale and trade of weapons has driven the destruction of Iraq but those who have supplied the means, walk away free with their pockets jingling.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

Thank you JTT for posting that Robert Fisk article, reading it made me very angry, how could Bush and his cohorts hold themselves up as paragons of virtue when their countrymen are steeped in the blood of the innocent.
It is true that the victor writes the history, do the people of the USA not feel ashamed that the Kurds and Iranis were murdered by the hideous weapons supplied to Hussein by their country, the USA and to a lesser extent the British governments should be tried as war criminals.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and
      contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or
      Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices
      as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3
      May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol,
      willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM

Teribus
Thanks for your comments, but I worked for the Home Office for 26 years. Enough said

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM

The death of Saddam changes nothing.

The American death toll now stands at 3,000 and is climbing.

Bloodiest month for American troops in Iraq in over two years.

And for some reason, no one in the world can tell us how many Iraqis have died.

The civil war in Iraq is raging.

Sleep well, Bush and Blair.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

Anyone who thinks this solves anything never read "Julius Caesar."

~D

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM

Dear Mr. Growler, you may have worked at the Home Office for 26 years but obviously you have never studied logic and debate. The fallacy you commit it the appeal to authority. In what capacity did you work? Were you a janitor or a senior analyst? Teribus is correct to ask for facts. Merely announcing that you worked in the Home Office proves nothing except that you were gainfully employed. I'd like to hear more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:35 AM

The U.S. government began "enabling" Saddam as early as 1959 when the CIA enlisted his help in undermining the government of Abdul Karim Qasim. The young Saddam was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad which botched the assassination of then Iraqi prime minister General Abdul-Karim Qasim.

The U.S. supported the coup that put Saddam in power in 1968, continued into the 1980s. The infamous Rumsfeld visit symbolized the U.S. policy of providing military and diplomatic assistance to the Iraqi regime in its catastrophic war with Iran. Cole points out that Secretary of State George Shultz even went so far as to shield Saddam from a possible UN condemnation for Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran.

The U.S. ambassador April Glaspie gave a "green light" to Saddam just before Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. She was "retired" by the State Department and has been conveniently silent ever since.

In 1989, on December 20, 1983 in Baghdad Saddam Hussein met with his friend Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was sent by then president Ronald Reagan to help Saddam fight the Islamic revolution in Iran. This close cooperation led to Washington selling loads of military equipment and also chemical precursors, insecticides, aluminum tubes, missile components and anthrax Iraq. They were used to gas Iranian soldiers and then civilian Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq, in 1988.

After the Halabja massacre, the Pentagon engaged in a massive disinformation campaign, spinning that the massacre was caused by Iran. US military aid enabled the US to invade Kuwait in 1990. Between 1991 and 1998, UN weapons inspectors conclusively established that the US - as well as British, German and French firms - had sold missile parts and chemical and bacteriological material to Iraq.

more here THE RAT TRAP asiatimesonline

Saddam Hussein was captured at the time when Halliburton was under extreme pressure for effectively swindling American taxpayers.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM

Well, it seems that the upsurge in violence predicted as a result of Saddam's death is not happening. It's still miserable in Iraq (aside from "Kurdistan"), but no worse than it was.

I said earlier, not all Sunnis, by a long shot, wanted anything to do with Saddam.   Many Sunnis, as distinguished from Baathists--no matter what Teribus says--may well be relieved. After all, it takes away a plausible reason for mistreating them---no more fear by the Shiites of a coup to restore Saddam. And Maliki can point this out to Sadr.

Now the ball is definitely in Maliki's court--will he in fact start to purge the Shiite militias from the police? If not, he's squandered a great opportunity to defuse the insurgency.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:52 AM

I agree, Ron, many Sunnis, as well as Shias, were afraid of Saddam Hussein. Both Sunnis and Shia Iraqis left Iraq in droves, seeking refuge during his regime.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

"We do know however that the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people."

That according to Ifor

Now between 1973 and 1990 Iraq was considered to be the richest market for arms traders and manufacturers. Here are the figures for those years presented as percentage of total sales:

Russia - 68.9% between 1973 and 1977 they were the sole supplier of arms to Saddam Hussein.
France - 12.7%
China - 11.8%
Others - 4.8%
Egypt - 1.3%
USA - 0.5%

Ifor is asking us to believe that, "the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people", when during that time they supplied Saddam with less than one percent of the arms required to maintain Saddam in power in order that he could terrorise his people and attack his neighbours. Utterly laughable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention my reaction having read Mr Fisk's article.

The man really should apply a timeline to such a tale. It would then become obvious to him where the numerous contradictions exist in his line of reasoning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:16 AM

Teribus..."utterly laughable" you say.
You are as about convincing as a camel with its head stuck up its arse.
The role of the USA and the UK in supporting and financing Saddam is well documented.

George Bush Snr was a constant backer of Saddam .The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains to sophisticated communications equipment to up to the minute military intelligence, from helicopter engines to dual use equipment of all kinds.

Furthermore the work of the US-Iraq Business Forum was augmented by Kissinger Associates which did much to ensure that trade between US corporations and Saddam's Iraq went smoothly.

The neo cons squirm now at the connection between the US and Saddam and would dearly love to write it out of history,hence the attack on people like Robert Fisk who has been a close observer of the role of the USA in the Middle East for many years.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

just Google - CDC biological Saddam.

"A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to
    former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government
    provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists
    in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other
    deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator
    Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist
    to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. "

Congressional Record

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

Freda DOES make a good point: The US has a great track record of backing people and organization in destabilized countries who ultimately turn and bite the hand that's feeding them.

Like a free market enterprize, I wonder what would happen if we said "nuts" to all of them and let them work out all their problems. No arms, no foreign aid, no embassy to target. Hmmm. Yet we keep trying.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

Ifor. old chum.

Let me see if I understand you/

"The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains "


So, what you are saying is that either Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens, certainly a crime worthy of the death penalty, or that he had them at the time of the US invasion, since the UN has no record of it being destroyed.

Pick one...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Reply to bearded bruce,
Saddam was a vicius mass killer and he deserved to die. It is the role of the USA and the UK which are worthy of further scrutiny as both countries have interfered,intervened,plotted against,blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq over the course of the past few decades.Saddam was their man,their killer and had gone off message.
All this because of the vast reserves of oil under the sand....after all Iraq would have been ignored if it had specialised in growing prize onions.
Oh and bearded bruce I am not your chum...I couldnt be chummy with somebody who parrots the neo con warline despite the barbarism it has unleashed.
Both Bush and Blair and a few others should be in the dock for the war crimes committed at Habitha,Abu Ghraib,Fallujah and elsewhere.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

bb - I'll pick 'Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens'.

The question remains:

Would he have been able to kill Iranian soldiers and Kurds if this hadn't occurred?

"the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases."

He was capable of such atrocities because the U.S. enabled him.

Doesn't this make the U.S. an accessory to the crime?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Another interesting series of incidents involve our naval forces in the Persian Gulf, and the 1987 dramatic attack on the guided-missle frigate Stark with air-to-sea missles by an Iraqi fighter: Click here for article
Apparently the Iraqi jet thought it was attacking an Iranian tanker and apologies were accepted from the Iraqi government for the mistake.

The lesson we apparently learned that day was to shoot first and ask questions later. Then we shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jet.

I may not be adding any clarity to the discussion, but I find the details interesting.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:53 PM

"blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq "


Ever hear about Kuwait, and the UN?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Bill Clinton, Nov. 14, 1994

'Sec. 3. Department of Commerce Controls. (a) The Secretary of
Commerce shall prohibit the export of any goods, technology, or
services subject to the Secretary's export jurisdiction that the
Secretary of Commerce determines, in consultation with the
Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, and other
appropriate officials, would assist a foreign country in
acquiring the capability to develop, produce, stockpile, deliver,
or use weapons of mass destruction or their means of delivery.
The Secretary of State shall pursue early negotiations with
foreign governments to adopt effective measures comparable to
those imposed under this section.'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 04:32 PM

Reply to Bearded Bruce
The USA and the the so called Coalition of the Willing invaded Iraq without a UN mandate.Operation Shock and Awe was an illegal and murderous act of war.
The US and UK's illegal involvement in Iraq's internal affairs started long before Iraq invaded Kuwait and even before it helped Saddam to power.
Hey,Bearded Bruce you are like some parrot of the Pentagon.....
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

"Operation Shock and Awe was an illegal and murderous act of war."


Actually not, but noone want to dig that up , as most here agreed to disagree about it.


"you are like some parrot of the Pentagon"


You can say that I SOUND like some parrot of the Pentagon, but unless you have some evidence, accuse me at your own risk- the black helicopters will be coming to get you....


I guess you think it is valid to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being in the pay/influence of those whose policies you disagree with: Ever consider that others might just have different opinions about the facts?


And you certainly qualify as chum to me... but I have no need at present for sharkbait.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

I doubt very much if Teribus and Beardedbruce will ever be convinced when the proof is there for all to see, it makes no difference, some very strange people on this Site.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

Teribus and Slag
   I am fully aware of the peramiters that enquiries of this kind have to keep within. but, this ignores the interferance by cabinet and the bullying of so called 'Political Advisers'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 09:44 PM

re growler: Huh? parameters? inquiries? what are you on about?

ifor, quick, before the next bloody conflict, tell us all who else the US supplied weapons grade disease strains and poison gasses to. That way you will be able to say, "See, I told you so!"

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:08 AM

Hey, folks, the link that Alice gave is worth following. It is damning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:27 AM

Well, there is a lot of factual information in there and some unfounded but understandable opinion too. Like I said earlier, the US has a knack for picking and backing "winners". On the other hand, what are you going to do? Look at the chaotic situationas a whole. Look at what we had to choose from. The best scenario from our prospective would be to have a democratically chosen leader who could work with all the interested factions. Instead we got a "megalomaniac" who was unpredictable. There was and are a lot of jokers in the deck. You play the hand dealt to you the best you can.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:56 AM

Reply to Slag
The main perspective from the view of the US administration and its Big Business allies has always been about the control of oil and other strategic resources together with the maintenance of US military and economic interests.
The democratic wishes of the people of Iraq or indeed other regions in the world have not come into it at all.
We have seen this in the long nightmare in Iraq but also in countries like Chile,Indonesia Vietnam and Nicaragua where governments have unleashed barbarism to support local killers and protect US business interests.
There has been plenty of opposition from inside America itself to these policies which we have seen in for example the anti war movements against the Vietnam war and the current US occupation of Iraq.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM

According to the Wall St Journal today, Maliki's own attitudes give the lie to his supposed concessions to Sunnis. Not good.

If he doesn't change, Iraq will do nothing but sink lower into chaos.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM

He had to answer for his crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

"Now Growler, if you dispute this point of mine you damn well come with come with some fact to back up your contentions. I don't think that you will because the weight of fact lies behind my arguement.

My word, the pomposity of Teribus is something to behold. The same Teribus who asserted, as casually as you like, that executioners have always been masked. Was he talking about executions in the short-lived history of Iraq, or executions wherever he lives? Or perhaps executions in 16th century England? He is surely aware that British executioners of the 20th century, such as Syd Dernley and Albert Pierrepoint, did not hide behind masks?

Chris B wonderfully captured the sordidness of the whole affair: a schoolteacher executed by a gang of taxi-drivers. Saddam died bravely, with dignity, at the hands of an anfantile rabble. Nothing whatsoever to do with Pontius Pilate Bush, of course, whose agents merely handed over the living Saddam to that rabble, and called back later for the dead one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

Thought Teribus always posted against guys wearing balaclavas ?

Maybe just some of them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

Well let's see, GUEST,Lily - 01 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

"I doubt very much if Teribus and Beardedbruce will ever be convinced when the proof is there for all to see,"

OK what about all this proof.

Sale of "dual purpose" materials. Iraqi Ministry of Agriculture approaches the US for chemicals required to make fertiliser, do you sell it to them? Iraqi Ministry of Health approaches a German Company for X-ray machines, do you sell them to them?

Of course you do, those sales taken at face value are entirely innocent, everything appears to be in order. Doesn't alter the fact that Saddam used the first to assist in the manufacture of WMD, and the latter could be modified to provide triggers for nuclear weapons.

Now Iran/Iraq War started when, good people?

US's first approach, by means of a unofficial "civilian" contact was when? - The Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam Hussein - No official diplomatic links existed between Iraq and the USA from 1967 to this date.

The samples, "the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory."

Absolutely correct, they did, the entire consignment was shipped to Iraq as the carry-on cabin luggage of one Iraqi scientist. The purpose of the shipment, was to bolster Iraqi defence against Chemical & Bacteriological/Biological attack by Iran, who also were armed with such weapons. CDC, remember good people, those initials stand for Centers for Disease Control and Prevention - it is part of the US Department of Health and Human Services, apart from being a Government Department it has no link or official tie-up to the Pentagon. The technical support and assistance, received by Iraq to produce these agents and the means to weaponise them coming from Soviet Russia. Let me recap again between 1973 and 1990 Russia supplied Iraq/Saddam with 68.9% of his weaponry while the USA supplied 0.5%. Very convincing figures indeed if it happens to be proof you want to consider.

Another great left-wing, anti-war, anti-Bush myth, relates to "Shock and Awe" that Ifor seems to be so worked up about. While a "Shock and Awe" campaign was unleashed in 1991 against Iraqi cities and infrastructure, no such campaign was used in 2003. I can remember vaguely Bobert quoting some article written by a guy with a weird Doctorate of Divinity stating that the US were going to use nuclear weapons as part of a "Shock and Awe" bombardment of Iraq, in which tens of thousands of Patriot Missiles were going to rain down on Iraq. Never actually happened of course, the statistics just don't back it up. But it does explain one thing. coming to think of it:

- If you have managed to convince yourself that there was indeed a "Shock and Awe" bombardment, when in actual fact there wasn't

- Then you might just believe that the figures given out as a very shakey estimate by John Hopkins might just be real, even when those responsible for drawing up that report state that they providing estimates not factual figures.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

If you are going to execute someone do so quickly, as humanely as possible, and with dignity.

Saddam Hussein was the only person who exhibited dignity....

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:55 AM

Peter K (Fionn) - 02 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

With regard to my pomposity Peter K (Fionn), executioners at all public executions were normally masked. British executioners of the 20th century, such as Syd Dernley and Albert Pierrepoint, did not hide behind masks, due mainly to the fact that those executions were conducted in private, with no members of the general public, or photographers present - TRUE?

Now then Peter K (Fionn), can you tell us all why, executioners at public executions, or at executions where members of the judiciary/public are present, are either not seen, or are masked? There is a specific reason for it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM

Teribus
...You are fleeing in the face of the facts when you deny the Shock and Awe attack on Iraq which began the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Shock and Awe was opened with the launching of hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs dropped from the big bombers based in Britain and elsewhere.

The missiles and bombs blew up mosques,markets,apartment blocks and hospitals.It was a ghastly and indiscriminate attack on the civilian population of Baghdad.There were many casualties.

The US military and media commentators boasted about Shock and Awe at the time but even that carnage has been overlaid with the further suffering inflicted on the Iraqi civilian population through the use of death squads, phospherous shells,napalm , depleted uranium munitions,torture ,kidnappings,sexual assaults and the indiscriminate fire of US soldiers and mercenaries alike.630000 civilian dead and no end insight to the occupation and the bloodbath.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

Now that the cell-phone video has been made public, what do you think of the government that executed Saddam?

Seems to me that the 'secret' video was designed to increase sectarian violence. With such a high-level execution, you'd think they would make sure no recording devises would be allowed. I can't even take a bottle of shampoo on board an airline but someone can take a recording devise to an execution? What gives?

Do you believe the recorded comments to be factual?

I am having a hard time with the whole televised aspect of this execution. I can never remember a time when an execution was televised for the world. Whats up with this?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

"630000 civilian dead "


basis? Or is this like the 3 million Southeast Asians that Canada will be killing over the next 30 years with asbestos poisoning- a WAG?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

Teribus, you said:

"Now then Peter K (Fionn), can you tell us all why, executioners at public executions, or at executions where members of the judiciary/public are present, are either not seen, or are masked? There is a specific reason for it."

As you presumably know the reason for it, why don't you tell us? I, for one, would be interested to know.

A lot of the facts you present to us are somewhat masked by your abrasive & offensive manner, IMO.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:21 PM

href="http://marchforjustice.com/shock&awe.php">Lovely Photo Gallery :

"The Pentagon now predicts that the Iraq blitzkrieg could approximate the devastation of a nuclear explosion. "The sheer size of this has never been ... contemplated before," one Pentagon strategist boasted to CBS News. "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad."

"The Pentagon dubbed its cold-blooded attack plan "Shock and Awe," a bizarre conjunction of trauma and admiration."

http://www.alternet.org/story/15027/
So Their Plans Went Awry?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:48 PM

The hooded or masked executioner is meant to denote that the faceles aspect of the state is carrying out the sentence; not an individual. Beheading was thought at one time to be the quickest, most humane way to dispatch the condemned and it was also considered to be the most diginfied death. The hanged man was acursed and was often left hanging as a warning to those who would defy the crown, None of the symbolisms are hard and fast and there are many variations. The protection of the executioner's identity was originally to protect him and his family from revenge.

The dignity that was AFFORDED to Saddam was a far cry from the vicious murders he and his sona and henchmen perpatrated against their own countrymen and even family members and it certainly was in sharp contrast to the terrorist who were definitely hiding behind masks as they sawed the heads off their kidnap victims for their audience's viewing pleasure on Al Jezera (sp?) and the internet.

I am SHOCKED and AWED at Ifor's disputation of facts. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Good luck arguing facts Teribus. Ifor's idea of an intelligent conversation seems to be "You agree with me or else."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

reply to slag
........what a sad comment.I have not been a bullyboy on this thread but have pointed out the plain truth that Bush and Blair are a pair of war criminals and that successive American and British governments are up to their necks in the blood and gore of the Iraqi people.
The 630000 deaths I mentioned in a previous posting comes from that well known Baathist organisation The John Hokins University in America which has conducted a survey of Iraqi households to arrive at that round figure.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:02 PM

The "cell-phone video" gives this story real legs. I'm not sure what some of the witnesses were shouting at Saddam before he was hanged but I somehow doubt that it was complimentary.

I believe there was some plan that this would be a "dignified" execution that would not provide more ammunition for Sunni/Shihii violence. Well, so much for that plan!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM

Transcript of the taunts.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:21 PM

I'm not sure that US pressure to put a Western face of perfunctoriness on the affair was in play here. Our culture would like to see a dispassionate performance of a state responsibility. This is Iraq. I believe they are trying to be a Western-styled democray. They need to find their own way: one which will fit in with the civilized world. Mistakes will be made. I don't like to see anyone's well intentioned enterprize fail so I'm all for Iraq getting it right and getting a new start that will serve their people and the region. Constructive criticism and encouragement are needed and not a desire to see them fail.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM

"This is Iraq. I believe they are trying to be a Western-styled democray. They need to find their own way: one which will fit in with the civilized world."

Iraq is a tribal society contorted by religious fundamentalism.
The "civilised world"in the shape of America and Britain have turned it into a butchers shop. we have recruited more converts to islamic fundamentalism in three years, than Osama could have managed in a lifetime.
Interesting to see Teribus and his ilk praise our strategy of training and arming the Shia, who by and large owe their allegiance to their fundamentalist leaders, not Western style "democracy".

Islamic fundamentalism was always the biggest danger to those who run Western "democracy"....They underestimated the madness of religious conviction.
These people really believe in a god and are prepared to put their lives on the line for that belief.
No one of sound mind in the West really believes and we are weakened by the lack of will...Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

The footage of the hanging is on YouTube if you have the stomach for that.