Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 03:19 PM

"The greatest danger to those who run Western "democracy" is Islamic Fundamentalism"

Teribus...I have already explained directly to you why I believe this to be the case....Memory loss is another symptom I'm afraid.

Despite the spinning of the UK/US/Iraqi governments and taking all available information into account, my best guess at violent deaths since the start of the war would be in hundreds of thousands.

Given the misinformation which abounds ...on both sides, all we can do is guess......And all the Iraqi people can do is grieve....Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

Why not remove the 'Islamic' and the 'Western' and just state:

"The greatest danger to democracy is religious fundamentalism."

It's the whole 'under God' crew, the ones who insist that
'religious freedom' applies to THEIR freedom to observe their
religion and to impose 'god's will' on others, that are
destructive to democracy.

Whether it's Christians in the US trying to legislate what
women can do with their own bodies or Muslims in Turkey
preventing Christian churches from owning property it all
comes down to the same thing.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,The Nutcracker
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:18 PM

Thank you GregB - the most sensible thing on this thread for a while. Religions of all stripes are rife for exploitation by zealots and bigots. For me the Christian neo-con fundies are just the Islamic fundies in different shirts. All of them stink.
A humanist plague on all their houses.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,Tchaikovsky
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:23 PM

Look, stop hijacking the Mudcat and get back to my ballet, you little fur-balls, or I'll set the cat on you.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

Greg....I state Western "democracy",because in reality it is not democracy at all, but an all powerful economic system which enslaves those it contains in the "money trap".
To survive, this monstrous machine requires to continually expand and create the environment in which the slaves exchange their time happiness and appreciation of the world and all it contains for money.
The operators of the machine immediately take the money back as payments for enormous mortgages, insurance of same, credit card payments, credit card penaties, bank charges and hire purchase payments on all manner of junk which we are told we cannot live without, but in reality don't need at all.

The Islamic fundamentalists may be mad, but they are not so mad that they cannot see how this creeping virus will affect the power structure of the Mullahs and Moslem culture.
And more importantly they have realised that the machine runs not only on the sweat of the slaves and vast quantities of energy which Moslems control, but also on the confidence of the owners of the machine.

A mere handful of religious fanatics who embrace death rather then life would be able to cause such damage to the confidence of the owners and shareholders that the machine would shudder to a halt.
The slaves , seeing the means of procuring the lifestyle they believe they cannot live without taken from them,panic and before long anarchy reigns.

Now this is probably a very good thing for the welfare of planet Earth, but a very bad thing for the owners of Western "democracy".
In my opinion the said owners are approaching the point where they will be prepared to take ANY measures to defend their system...Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:00 PM

Ooooo, GregB!!! "porcine whistle training" with regards to those of Islamic Faith!!!Hmmm?!

re religious fundamentalism. Wasn't it religious fundamentalists who were responsible for establishing the first great democracy since the Grecco-Roman times? Right here in North America? I refer to the Pilgrims and the Mayflower Compact and other men of Christian faith whose orthodoxy would make many of today's so-called fundamentalists blush with shame (watch this one take off like a sky rocket folks!).

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:37 PM

"teribus - As already posted, Andrew Mack (from UBC), is a credible source but, "...you're citing a piece of research that is based on data collected before the uprising in Fallujah, and before the onset of the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate? And before the resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan."

Now let's see dianavan the article I referred to was dated 19/10/2005. The Study covers all conflicts in great detail from 1945 to 2003 (Exactly when in 2003 is not made clear). Would you agree that that amount of data might take a bit of time to process? A simple yes or no answer would suffice for this question. So just for arguements sake we'll give Professor Mack and his team 12 months to collate and analyse their data. That would allow a further 10 months for review and publication in order that the worlds press can then comment on it - seem reasonable to you?

There was an "uprising in Fallujah" ?? Are you and Choc refering to the occasion when the USMC sealed the place off and knocked seven bells out of the insurgents trapped therein? Where they succeeded in uncovering and rendering safe rather a large number of arms caches, killed rather a large number of insurgents, uncovered a few of the sites where masked men (heroes of the insurgency) cut the heads of various hostages in front of video cameras - Oh sorry, masked men conducting gruesome executions, where the victim is tortured and taunted - at least hanging is a bit quicker - bet Saddam was rather pleased that he wasn't hung in Iran. By the Bye Fallujah has not been prominent in reports concerning the "insurgency" since this "uprising" of yours.

So currently there is a "Civil War" in Iraq is there dianavan, oh and Choc + whatever other names he/she is posting as on this thread. Perhaps you could let us in on who is fighting who? Perhaps you could let us in on what the aims and aspirations of the sides contesting this "Civil War" are? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who the leaders of the various factions are? It is after all a "Civil War" - Or so you say.

In actual fact what you have is an insurgency, which is rapidly running out of steam, and sectarian violence - Both in themselves, or combined, do not constitute a "Civil War". When was the last time you heard from Al-Queada-In-Iraq? Insurgents are supposed to be attacking the infidel occupiers - Yes? Why then are their attacks on those infidel occupiers becoming less and less effective? If "the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate" happens to be the case they are being extremely inefficient and ineffective in prosecuting their cause - In short they are achieving nothing, mainly because they have nothing to achieve.

As for the upsurge in violence in Afghanistan, here are the figures for 2006 - 4000 killed 25% of those were civilians killed by either the UN or NATO soldiers and the Taleban (Bulk of civilians having been killed by the latter), which leaves about 3000 combatants killed. Now very few of that number (i.e. the 3000) are UN or NATO troops, so the bulk of the 3000 must be Taleban fighters - True? So this "resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan" has resulted in the deaths of 1000 civilians, a handful of UN and NATO troops and almost 3000 Taleban fighters - I would venture to suggest that that would indicate no resurgence of Taleban anything, on the other hand it would indicate that the Taleban are taking one hell of a hammering.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:31 PM

Gracious. T. I do hope you are being paid well. You may find yourself out of a job before you know it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,UNSUX
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:48 PM

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Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:30 PM

Slag---

I use the 'porcine' term advisedly and with intent. They are
precisely what they claim to revile.

Regarding the Pilgrims--- you're a 150 years too early
for any serious thoughts of 'democracy' in the New World. They,
and most of the other 'religious refugees' of the 17th century,
were basically after finding a place where they could run things
their way. Which turned out to be the way 'God' wanted it. It wasn't
until the end of the 18th century that political thinkers began
to realize that separation of church and state is fundamental
to true 'Democracy.'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:46 PM

Slag--Greg is right. Do you purposefully misinterpret history for incendiary effect?   If you wanted to avoid such an effect, all you'd have to do is a bit of research before you post. I get the distinct impression your main goal is heat, not light.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:22 AM

It seems that the T-zer can only see one side of the equation. He's a win or lose kinda guy and it will take full retreat and/or widespread slaughter to convince him that the US and Britain combined can never win this war.

btw - Alot more happened in Fallujah than the capture of a few criminals.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/fallujah.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/read-wsj.html&h=392&w=600&sz=79&hl=en&start=31&tbnid=bnPt6m7m_uQQmM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfallujah%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

The hanging of Saddam was just another act of revenge. He was, after all, the man who almost had George Sr. assassinated. I wonder if Sr. is proud of his son for killing so many innocents, displacing the rest and destroying the infrastructure?

I'd say the hanging of Saddam was an honour killing.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:33 AM

Running out of steam, Tel?
The body count is growing month on month. December - 2000-odd killed (that we know of). Would you be willing to take a stroll outside the green zone?
And Fallujah was rather more than an exercise for the USMC - it brought foreign fighters to queues on the borders to come and join the party, and was seemingly the catalyst for bringing in a wider, Al Queda-inspired tranche of Sunnis to join the civil war. Sorry, uprising.
Is that like the vietnam uprising, by the way?
So come on poppet, take the tinfoil off your head, wake up and face a little reality here. The US and British official briefings are about as reliable as those during Vietnam and the Falklands; they have a gloss to put on matters, and will say that black is white if it suits them.
Your much-derided media probably has a better grasp on reality. Not the chairborne warriors in London, New York and Washington, but those on the ground who venture outside the green zone once in a while. There aren't many of them, because it's a dangerous calling, but they are the ones giving the true picture. Talk to squaddies who have done tours there - they'll tell you the situation's going to ratshit. Not much patrolling in berets gets done these days, my love; it's lids on and lock down.
But I suppose you'll carry on carrying the flag valiantly for the armchair warriors. Bless!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:58 AM

Lighten Up Ron, et al. It is part of our American Heritage. These are just the seeds of democracy. Man, you guys Out with the gats at a momnents notice. Seed for many things were brought to these shore but if your honest you have to see parallels in American fundamental Christianity and the shape our nation and its government took. In England the Church was the state and vice versa. In America Church government was the substitute for civil government. The same folks were working through these issues of Church and State. One hand washed the other, so to speak. Remember both Harvard and Yale began as seminaries! Most of the founding fathers were devout Christians who sought a middle way that tried to be inoffensive to those of differing faiths. You guys are real quick to give the Devil his due. Give Christianity its due. It's history.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:01 AM

Teribus, you're starting to get quite slovenly about facts, maybe because you simply take on more than you can manage. Try aiming for quality, and forget abpit quantity for a while.

In the meantime, please cite any situation in those "more recent times" you mentioned, when only one member of a firing squad was issued with a live round. You might like to keep in mind that you seemed to be referring to the UK, but I'd settle for anywhere.

Or you could do the smart thing and say you got it wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

Excuse me, old chap, not wishing to be rude or anything, but there's a queue here! The firing squad issue was my question (albeit under an alter ego).
You get young Terry here to tell you where Albert Pierrepoint kept his mask, and how the UK's GDP is greater than that of Ireland, and...well, there are dozens of unanswered questions in his turbulent wake, as you probably know.
Good to see you back on form after the legionella nastiness, by the way. Keep well and keep biting.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:06 PM

Slag--

As been said (accurately) also of Teribus, you are also "slovenly about facts". What the Pilgrims established was much closer to a theocracy than a democracy. Otherwise it would not have been necessary for Roger Williams and other dissidents to leave. Also see the reception given Quakers in New England.

And you can can the "lighten up"--which is somehow always suggested when you are caught in yet another stupid incendiary statement. Wonder why that happens.

It so happens that a lot of folkies are enthusiastic, if amateur, historians--and will call you on any blatant misstatement--as for instance your opening remark on Mr. Carter.

You'd best learn to get your facts straight--before you post. It would be a refreshing change.

Though some Mudcatters seem to like to deny any Christian influence on the early history of the American colonies, I am not one.   Obviously there was a lot.

But to describe what the Pilgrims established as a democracy is an absurd oversimplification. As Greg points out, that came much later.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:26 PM

OK Ron, If you want me to post the entire history of the Europeans in Ameerica up to and including the Constitutional Convention I will. I don't know if the mods will go along with it though. Do you not understand a GENERAL OBSERVATION? The point of the Pilgrims is that as a community they worked out how to govern themselves. That doesn't smack of democracy??? Well, maybe not in you book.

My statement was incindiary??? I guess maybe it was because you went off like a Roman Candle. Anybody else have any complaints??? Shall we all say that there was NO CHRISTIAN INFLUENCE in the founding of the United States??? Ron appears to need to rewrite history so lets all deny our heritage. Goodnight Ron.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:01 PM

It couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:20 PM

The man showed more grace and courage on the gallows than did his executioners.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:58 AM

I wonder why all tyrants attempt to justify their tyrany by pointing to the behavious of others - they all belong in the same zoo as far as I can see.
As Ghandi said about western civilisation - it would be a good idea.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Slag--

Still obviously having that serious problem you and other Bushites seem to have with reading.   And comprehension. Actually that's important too.

If you ever started reading posts other than your own, you'd see that I in fact stated that Christianity had a strong influence on the early North American colonies.

Actually I've had some strong disagreement with those Mudcatters who, for instance, wanted all images of the 10 Commandments taken out of courtrooms. The Judeo-Christian tradition is essential in understanding the founding of the colonies that became the US.

All we ask is that you finally start reading--and thinking--before you post.

Seems reasonable.

I'm sorry if it's beyond your abilities.

But if you don't, be ready to be slapped down for blatant misstatements--which, interestingly, seem to be your stock in trade. As I said earlier, your main goal seems to be heat, not light.

Some of us are more interested in light--and even in accuracy--a foreign concept to you, it appears.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:03 PM

:0)

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