BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: jets
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:10 PM

I think that I have mentioned before that I was on a Liberty ship enroute from Greece to Italy .We had large timbers in the cargo holds . We were too load tanks and other war material for the invasion of Japan. And we heard of the bomb being dropped.
We anchored outside of Barrie Italy for several days .We then took aboard 20 GIs and headed for the Good Old USA. The bomb changed my course and it certainly had an impact on the lives of the soldiers that we returned to their homes and famils.
It is my belief that the bomb and its effect gave the Emperor of Japan the oportunity to surrender without losing Face.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:18 PM

Well, it was certainly successful, Zol. :-) I'll grant you that.

The reason Germany did not negotiate a rational surrender in World War II was because Germany was in the control of a totally irrational man. (His braver generals certainly advised him to negotiate from time to time, but he WOULD NOT.) That was not a result of any Allied lack of resolve at the end of WWI. In fact, it was a rather unique situation in European history. Germany has been in a number of wars, and no other war in modern times resulted in the devastation of the whole country, nor does a country escape the future clutches of a dictator by being totally devastated by foreign forces.

Nope, I don't follow your line of reasoning regarding Germany in the least. The tradition in European wars was always to fight until one side sees it has lost...then you negotiate. Hitler's regime was different. He was determined to bring the whole country down with him to death and destruction. That was certainly not the case with the Kaiser, or Bismark, or Blucher, or Frederick the Great or any previous German leader in relatively modern times.

A more punitive attitude toward Germany in 1918 would not have benefited the situation in the least, in my opinion, but far greater resolve shown toward the Nazis in the 30's before WWII would have been a very good idea. They should have been nipped in the bud early on before rearming, and they could have been, but France and England lacked the resolve to do it. France and England were NOT lacking in resolve in 1918. Not in the least. They laid the whole blame for the First World War on Germany...and Germany was not wholly to blame for that war. In fact, everyone was pretty much equally to blame for it.

People were just angry at the Germans in 1918 because they had made gains, occupied territory, and fought so damned well. No one could bother being mad at poor, pathetic Austria-Hungary, could they? Nope, it was the Germans who were chosen to be the "fiend incarnate" of the hour. That's what it's like after a war, and it was precisely that punitive attitude that gave Hitler the fuel he needed to power the Nazi Party, burn the Reichstag and have Germany in the palm of his hand.

Revenge on the part of the victors after a war breeds a new war. People should know better. Losing a war is punishment enough in itself. France and England tried in every way they could to gut Germany after WWI, and they inherited the results of that in 1939-40 and beyond.

MacArthur handled the occupation of Japan very wisely, with respect and dignity, and he did not take revenge upon the people or try to destroy the economy...and the Japanese, for their part, were extremely cooperative with the occupying forces, so the whole thing worked out far better than it might have.

Helping a defeated enemy rebuild is obviously the way to go. It worked wonderfully with Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:26 PM

Read the Manhattan Project when ya getta chance. The fact that the US had only three bombs was a closely-held secret.

"At 5:29:45 (Mountain War Time) on July 16, 1945, in a white blaze that stretched from the basin of the Jemez Mountains in northern New Mexico to the still-dark skies, "The Gadget" ushered in the Atomic Age. The light of the explosion then turned orange as the atomic fireball began shooting upwards at 360 feet per second, reddening and pulsing as it cooled. The characteristic mushroom cloud of radioactive vapor materialized at 30,000 feet. Beneath the cloud, all that remained of the soil at the blast site were fragments of jade green radioactive glass created by the heat of the reaction.

The brilliant light from the detonation pierced the early morning skies with such intensity that residents from a faraway neighboring community would swear that the sun came up twice that day. Even more astonishing is that a blind girl saw the flash 120 miles away.

Upon witnessing the explosion, its creators had mixed reactions. Isidor Rabi felt that the equilibrium in nature had been upset -- as if humankind had become a threat to the world it inhabited. J. Robert Oppenheimer, though ecstatic about the success of the project, quoted a remembered fragment from the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become Death," he said, "the destroyer of worlds." Ken Bainbridge, the test director, told Oppenheimer, "Now we're all sons of bitches."

from    inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm

The awesome power of that bomb was known to the scientifc and military personnel. The petitions from scientists to stop the use of the bomb was NOT heeded.

Today, we use atomic bombs to set off hydrogen bombs. And so it goes. IMO, if there is a second atomic war, I hope to be at ground zero. There, I have read, the blast is so fast the the human nervous system has no time to react. Basically, dead before you know it. I think it was Einstein who said, "If there is an atomic war, the living will envy the dead." I hope to be one of the latter very early on. And I pray that my children are, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:29 PM

Ok so Saddam was not a comparable case - but then the principle stands anyway. It does not matter whether you are a murderer or a nun, when you are caught DWI you will be punished, that is the law.

Nor does it help to beg the question by saying, 'it's the President or this one or that one who is responsible' and/or 'the act is not criminal'. The fact is simply, the entity of the USA is the responsible agent here, and it is that which must sooner or later face the music of justice before some world court! At that time it will be decided whether this act was or was not a crime.

Do not forget that there were many many evil deeds done in Europe by the Allies as they waged war against the Axis. Included in these vile acts was the bombing of Dresden. OC I must add that Germany bombed Coventry mistaking the city for an armaments manufacturing target, which often I read as an excuse.. but.

In the case of Dresden trhe Allies knew in advance that it was cold blooded murder of civilians. If the Nazis wanted revenge upon this city they could not have done a better job of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM

The British High Command knew that Coventry would be bombed. They allowed it to happen. To have evacuated or defended the city would have alerted Germany that their codes had been broken, and the Allies needed the intelligence more than they needed Coventry. So, they allowed it to happen. Riight or wrong? That act may have saved tens of thousands of lives on June 6, 1944. However, I am not a seer.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:36 PM

Jack the Sailor as usual you don't know Jack-shit. Or have even a clue as to how I vote or what my politics are.. You are such a dork. Others here know that I was demonstrating on the corner of Michigan and Balbo in August 1968 at the Democratic convention. People who know me also know I was a very visable left-wing long hair throughout the 70s. Others who really know me know that I now think the far-left mentality such as yours is as twisted as Rush Limbough's is for the far right. Except that he is smart enough to be making money at it while you punch the keyboard of a computer in a tin can somewhere in rural Alabama, pretty well isolated from the melting pots of America, and good dentists for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:36 PM

Furthermore, Truman didn't invade the wrong country like this dildo we have in the White House now.

Kendall; that is only your opinion.

There was a warning to regimes that supported terrorsts. Remember?

There was a Hammas terrorist training camp in Iraq.

There was an Al Qaeda training base in Iraq.

Abu Abbas, and Abu Nidal infamous terrorists, there is Zarakawi (SP) that has beheaded several people in Iraq.

Saddam Hussein supported the attacks on Israel by sending $25,000 to the family of terrorists who blow themself up to kill Israeli's and people visiting Israel.

I don't like Bush because he is slowly weakening the bill of rights; but I DO support the war on terrorism (Even a stopped clock is right twice a day).

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Bert
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:40 PM

Well speaking as one, who as a schoolkid, hid under the desk many times from the threat of German bombs, I'd like to say a word or two.

We were at WAR, they were killing us, and we were killing them. The game is that, if you can kill enough of them then you win.

From the history that I have read, I think that the Japanese were more ferocious and determined than the Germans. The defeat of Germany proved that the Axis powers would fight until the very end.

The Japanese were STILL fighting after the end of the war in Europe. So it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to think that they were ready to surrender. If that were really the case then why did they NOT surrender at the defeat of their Axis partners?

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:30 AM

It was a joke Martin.

You are not moderate at all you are foul mouthed and abrasive.

Who gives a flying leap what your politics are? I don't read the garbage that you post anyway, so I'll never know.

And as a matter of fact I do know Jack Shit. He's your father.
It was cruel of him giving you the birthname Fulla.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:35 AM

Well, Bert, I think you should read some books by and about the Japanese who were actually there at the time, and you would know very well why they didn't want to surrender.

The reasons were mostly psychological, rather than rooted in any kind of practicality or pragmatism. It goes back to the whole Japanese honor system, and the fact that Japan had never been defeated in a war prior to World War II. They were accustomed to victory. They had even beaten the Russians in 1905, astounding the World. They also thought of themselves as a good and advanced society, as do most people.

Now, Bert, you know perfectly well why the British were not inclined to surrender in 1940 don't you? Just think about it. The Japanese felt pretty much the same way in 44-45.

When a distant foreign society, whose motives and moral capabilities you know little or nothing about is bombing you, sinking your shipping, and menacing you on every side, what do you do????

You hunker down and fight back as best you can! Just like the British did. Just like the Germans did while Hamburg burned. Just like the Russians did in the ruins of Stalingrad. You fight on. That is all the Japanese were doing.

Do you think for a moment that the ordinary Japanese citizen or soldier thought his country was in the wrong? Hell, no. They thought that their country had responded in the only way it could to outside threats. That's what people always think when their country is at war. It may be naive, but it's as common as dandelions.

You are simply failing to realize that the Japanese fought on for exactly the same reason people always fight on in any embattled country, regardless of whether their Allies surrender, specially if that country has a very proud military tradition.

It was the job of their political leaders (who had more information than the ordinary people) to recognize when it was time to quit, and some of them did recognize that (although somewhat later than they really should have) and were trying to make arrangements through the Russians to end the fighting.

As a citizen of the UK, a country with a glorious history (like pre-WWII Japan), a proud and independent island (like Japan), a naval power (like Japan), with an overseas empire (like Japan), never successfully invaded since William the Conqueror (like Japan again)....as a citizen of that country how would YOU react if a consortium of hostile foreign powers, deadly enemies, surrounded the UK and demanded that you unconditionally surrender, disband all your armed forces, and submit to immediate occupation by foreign troops?

You'd dig in and keep fighting like hell, just like the British did in 1940. No matter what.

The reason you can't comprehend why the Japanese would not want to surrender is that you don't realize that when it comes right down to it they are just like you...human in full degree...and proud of their country.

They are not "bad guys", they're ordinary, fallible human beings, and they are easily fooled by an unscrupulous government, as is the case with virtually all human populations in all eras.

The American population was recently fooled into launching an unprovoked war against Iraq, for example, on excuses far more flimsy than Japan's ire over American trade embargos on steel and oil in 1941.

If one's own country is surrounded and bombed, one mans the barricades and shoots back. It's as simple as that. If they demand unconditional surrender, you fight back all the harder. The Russians sure did, didn't they? Everybody did. That's people's nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:36 AM

From Martin Gibson....
somewhere in rural Alabama, pretty well isolated from the melting pots of America, and good dentists for that matter.

Yeah you're a "liberal" all right. Who plays the front of the horse you ignorant bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:45 AM

And you know, Bert, Hitler was similarly befuddled in 1940 as to why the British didn't seek a negotiated settlement after the fall of France! He simply couldn't fathom it. They were all alone. They were outnumbered and outgunned. Their only ally had surrendered. Why didn't they throw in the towel and come to terms with Germany?

I think you know the answer to that.

Just imagine that YOU were a Japanese in the 1940's, believing implicitly in your country and cause, and you will know exactly why they found it difficult to throw in the towel too.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:03 AM

Little Hawk,

I don't think that the 'reason' they didn't want to surrender alters the fact that they didn't surrender, or the fact that it was apparent to the allies that they weren't going to surrender.

I would not have preferred that the war had been prolonged enough for the enemy to have developed and used an equal or greater weapon against us.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:20 AM

I suspect that the one who started this thread does not realize that nobody ever learns EXACTLY why anything happens the way it does. The best we can do is ponder it some and then try to get some of it in focus.

Even then we can't always believe that what we see is the exact truth of it.

From here, though, it seems the bombs were dropped to win the damn war.

Mission accomplished--for better or worse.

And now that we are married to it---we learn to live or die with it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:22 AM

Umm...well, no chance of that, Bert. The Japanese hadn't even begun investigations in the direction of an atomic project by 1945, and they lacked the necessary strategic resources to accomplish it anyway.

The general rule in a war is...a country will fight against foreign invasion and occupation as long as it is still able to...specially if it's being bombed. People get mad when they're being bombed. So if you want such a country to give up sooner, you talk to them about negotiating conditions, you don't demand "unconditional surrender". If their position is very bad, they may well negotiate. If not, you were no worse off for trying.

The Union and Confederacy tried to negotiate an end in 1864, with Lee hunkered down in trenches in front of Petersbury, Virginia. They talked for 2 or 3 days about it, while a ceasefire was held. The negotiations failed, because the South was still thinking of itself as an independent country and the North was thinking of them as rebels who must return to the Union...and it was absolutely unreconcilable. Too bad. A lot of lives could have been saved, and a lot of bitterness avoided. Atlanta and Richmond would not have burned. Too bad.

I have always thought that unconditional surrender was a bloody stupid idea, and I continue to think so. Without that lunatic Hitler leading Germany, the Germans could have negotiated an end to the war soon after Normandy...had the Allies been willing to negotiate in that case...but Stalin would never have agreed to it.

Again, too bad. These were missed opportunities, in every case.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: mooman
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:15 AM

Mooman, were you there to personally interview the general consensus of Navy seamen to make suck a ridiculous statement as you did?

No MG I was not there. But, as I said in my post, my father was on active service on a destroyer on escort duty to a battle fleet off Japan for many months and, according to him and I had no reason to have doubted him, that was the opinion of a large proportion of the serving seamen. So it is their view which is "ridiculous", I only posted what had been reported to me by someone who had been involved in the bombardment and blockade of Japanese ports and, more widely, in the Pacific campaign. As others have said, Japan was very close to total economic collapse at the time the bombs were dropped and had already begun to sue for peace. And, as for not knowing what the effects would be, plenty could be postulated following the original testing and knowldege that there was of Japanese building techniques. Certainly it would have been known in advance that 10s of 1000s of ordinary civilians would be killed instantaneously.

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:49 AM

Carol,

once more you are making an assumption about me. You see to assume that when I point to similarities I don't see dissimilarities. That's wrong.

But the similarity is what worries me and therefore I point to it. That similarity is not just in some minor detail, like Little Hawk can be read to imply (though I'm not sure here), but a whole string of argumentation.

I could translate whole passages on Israel and on American politics from European Neonazi sites and that would go down well with some of the lefts here.

I think one should be at least a tiny bit worried about the own position and the arguments for it if someone with which one does not want to be compared shares not only the position but also the string of argumentation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:47 AM

Two_Bears, Iraq did not bomb the towers. There is not one scrid of evidence that they had anything to do with that. I stand ny my "opinion".

If Truman were running for president today he'd get my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:04 AM

Jack the Sailor:

"From a North American perspective, the Mudcat left, is pretty much everyone but DougR. "

Hardly. About 44% of the likely voters still support Bush, about the same that supports getting rid of him. You seem to have a vastly inflated opinion of the support that the Left has in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:43 AM

Oh dear, Fartin Gibberass is trying to stir things up again. Perhaps that week off to get his meds adjusted was not long enough...

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:18 AM

Bert - the Japanese were attempting to surrender. OK they weren't doing it fast enough, and they were doing it the wrong way, and 'unconditional' wasn't being mentioned, but they were addressing surrender. The Allies were intercepting Japanese signals and could read most of the ciphers (after some delay).

The Japanese weren't developing a nuclear device, which is why they sent the uranium by submarine which ended up in the USA when that submarine surrendered (allegedly). Apart from a very small exchange of essential materials, weapon designs and one or two personnel there was very little actual contact between the Germans and Japanese during WW2. So when the Germans were defeated it didn't have such an impact on the Japanese - it was half a world away. Of course it would release men and materials for the war against Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:26 AM

From my perspective, I have a letter which was written in Manila by my father and sent to my mother the day after the Nagasaki bomb was dropped. In it he states flatly that he doesn't know about these new, more powerful, bombs but if they end the war and let him and his buddies get back home they're all for them.

The problems with the WWI surrender of Germany has long been discussed by historians and it's pretty much agreed that the Versailles treaty led directly to Germany's re-arming, the rise of Hitler, and WW2. The policies that led to WW1 were formulated back around 1860 by Otto von Bismarck -- Grossdeutschland and all that. The Franco-Prussian War of 1870 confirmed Germany's opinion of itself (Austria-Hungary was considered a nice cousin) and its militaristic doctrine. The arms races -- in guns, ships, and armies -- that dominated the end of the 19th Century and first decade of the 20th led directly to WW1, from that to WW2.

Any point in history is the peak of a pyramid. I believe it was Chekov who wrote, "If you hang a gun on the wall in the first act, you must use it in the third." And that's what all too often happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:59 AM

Sorefingers - "Do not forget that there were many many evil deeds done in Europe by the Allies as they waged war against the Axis. Included in these vile acts was the bombing of Dresden. OC I must add that Germany bombed Coventry mistaking the city for an armaments manufacturing target, which often I read as an excuse.. but......In the case of Dresden trhe Allies knew in advance that it was cold blooded murder of civilians."

So the persistent bombing by the Germans of British towns and cities, night after night after night for several years, resulting in the deaths of over two million British civilians doesn't count, in your strangely out-of-kilter world, as cold-blooded murder, or acts of evil? You mention Coventry as though it was the only city attacked, and then only on one occasion. I don't know where you're from but I can tell you, laddo, that every major city and many smaller towns in the UK were bombed repeatedly by the Luftwaffe during WWII. Not only bombed 'conventionally' by dozens of manned aircraft, but also by V1 and V2 missiles which, unlike today's cruise missiles and ICBMs, were completely unguided and simply fell randomly from the sky when they ran out of fuel, killing whoever had the ill-fortune to be beneath them - whether it be a munitions worker, a village postman or a child asleep in bed. Were these not also 'vile acts'?

And it didn't end with bombing - in my own small home-town (15,000 population) there were, until a few years ago, still buildings with bullet-holes in the brickwork where a German aircraft on its way home from a bombing raid on a nearby city strafed a group of people leaving the local cinema. Oh the Germans knew exactly what they were doing too, they targetted factories, power stations, gas-works, railway marshalling yards, docks. These weren't military targets, they weren't manned by soldiers, they were full of civilian workers who died or were maimed in their hundreds of thousands. And they hit residential areas too - ask any senior citizen of London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow, Coventry, Southampton, and hundreds of other towns in the UK who, I suspect unlike you, lived through the horror of it all.

But I guess you probably think we got what we deserved? And I guess you probably live in a certain country that sustained not so much as one single air-raid during the whole of WWII?

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 11:07 AM

in fifty years the question will be "Exactly why did the US invade Iraq?" and those of you who bought the administrations version, or the misinformation and propoganda will be saying: 'Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, etc.' The same is true of Hiroshima & Nagasaki. The government's story, that many still propogate, is ' It saved millions of American lives!' there is absolutely NO evidence for that, it is purely speculation, based on what we Americans, who have little or no experience with Japanese culture, think the Japanese may or may not have done. useless to discuss. The question is WHY did the US drop the bombs? and to me there is not now, nor were there ever, any justification for it's use. end of argument. you don't kill innocent civilians, period.

Rabbi Sol talks about the madman, Hitler getting the bomb. you could as easily argue that Truman was a madman, 'only a madman could have done what he did'. and probably not be right in either case, Hitler may or may not have been a madman, just as Sadam Hussein may or may not have been, Personally I don't think either of them were insane, just willing to use the power they had. Just as the neo-cons argument for a new American Century is 'because we have the power we should use it' to remake the world in our image.

As to the original question and it's usual response, "to save American lives, if we had invaded they would have fought to the death, etc." the question that is never asked is: Why did we have to invade? Japan was defeated, no navy, no air force, no longer a threat to anyone, why not stand down, let your forces r & r in the South Pacific for a few months and blockade the Island? would starvation have been less or more cruel than nuclear anhailation? I know an army loosed is hard to restrain, but there was no reason to bomb or invade, just as there was no reason to invade Iraq. It was the choice of our 'leaders', and we have to live with the consequences. We are now a terrorist nation, for the threat behind everything we want other countries to do is 'we have the bomb!' and we are not afraid to use it. It angered and amazed me to hear the Bushes say that Sadam must be stopped because if he ever got a nuclear weapon he was a madman who would use it against defenseless civilian populations. that is US, the U. S. and we did it twice. yes, EVERY country has committed war crimes and attrocities, but this is our own personal shame. I only hope we are the only country to have to live with it, but the future is a nuclear nightmare, it's only a matter of time, our chickens will come home to roost, and boy will we be outraged!

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 11:20 AM

Well, IF Truman were back, we'd at least know where the buck stops. And, if it DOES stop on the President's desk, does that mean that Halliburton is . . . ?

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:06 PM

Truman was a tough, determined, cold-blooded, and effective man. He was a good guy to have on your side, a very bad guy to have as an enemy. My biggest beef with Harry Truman (aside from dropping the atomic bombs) is his UFO coverup which has remained in effect to this day. The Roswell incident occurred during Truman's time in office, and led to the formation of MJ-12 (Majestic) and the coverup, which has been the most determined in history as far as I know.

As Presidents go, Truman was one of the most effective, I'll grant that. He may well have been preferable to his Republican opponents at the time. Hard to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:07 PM

Americans need feel no shame nor remorse over the events of the Pacific war. The Nip military, government, Emporer et al, by pursuing an aggressive politic against their Eastern neighbours, the U.S. and allied British Commnowealth nations and demonstrating a most vile and inhuman attitude to those they subdued bit off more than they could chew. They sowed a storm and reaped a hurricane. The US had a task to do and they did it in the most efficient manner; it brought to an end a war that had already cost countless lives and could have continued. War, ever since Adam was a boy, has cost lives, innocents especially and nobody has found a formula for a "limited war". When we do and we can decide who and how many must be sacrificed let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

I think you have made the point that I wanted to make myself, Wolfgang. When you post two similarities, as you did, and you leave out all of the many dissimilarities, you give a (hopefully) false impression that you only see the two similarities and not the dissimilarities.

In the case of the two (very) different sets of people you are trying to compare, the dissimilarities pretty much render irrelevant any similarities there may be.

On your point of whether or not people who criticize the governments of the US and Israel should worry because of the fact that the Neonazis do the same, I would point out that the criticism are perfectly legitimate. But what the Neonazis are doing with those criticisms is what is illigitimate. They are using them as a protective cover to give their very illigitimate cause an air of legitimacy. It surprises me greatly that you have not figured this out yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,PeteBoom at Work
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:24 PM

Carol C (and LH) -

The early "peace proposals" from Japan consisted essentially of "you don't fight us and we won't kill you and we'll keep everything we captured." Around the Leyte Gulf / Phillipines campaign (second one, not the first...) these changed to "let's call it a draw." After Leyte Gulf, as Little Hawk said, they became far more serious and entered into negotaions through the Russians along the lines of "well, OK - you don't attack us and we'll talk about what we'll give back."

In a war of conquest, negotiating a peace deal without breaking the absolute will and ability of the agressor to do so again will merely set the stage for another round of wars and violence. In that case, a lightning strike victory (eg., the franco-prussian war) will set up another round of war within a generation. Beating and bleeding the agressor into absolute submission teaches a social lesson that becomes deeply embedded into society itself and takes generations to overcome to the point where launching military activity is worth considering. Until then, any thought of military aggression brings back the spectre of the "last time."

That is why the terms had to be "unconditional". And "unconditional" was unacceptable to Japan.

The difference between a civil war/revolution/war of independence and a war of conquest is that usually the group attempting to break away will be content with that alone - which is why the Confederate States did not need to aggressively invade the Northern states to win the war. Essentially like Vietnam or the Anglo-Irish war - Make it impossible for the other side to govern, and you will eventually win if you can hold out long enough.

On a personal note, my father's unit was training for the invasion of Japan at the time the bombs were dropped. The war planners had it slated to land in Japan on D-Day. Based on the plans, within a week, it was expected to be "removed from the order of battle". "Removed from the order of battle" is the fancy way of saying "shot to pieces" based on the experience of previous invasions.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:25 PM

Exactly my point, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

To bring in a musical reference, I'll quote Tom Lehrer:

Who's next?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:08 PM

100,00 Japanese lives, ot a million US servicemen. No brainer!

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

"Nip"

Japanese, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:42 PM

One further point for Wolfgang...

In the US, some white supremacist hate groups use the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights as a significant part of their argumentation. Does this mean we in the US should abandon our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Or even call their legitimacy into question? Obviously not.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM

Even to-day some Americans still believe that "agent orange" was a fruit drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:08 PM

That's a no brainer, Bobert old buddy: to save lives and end the war in the Pacific.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

Yup. There were no brains that went into the decision, you have that right, DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

SRS:

I think that is a bit unfair. There was a LOT of selfdoubt and anguish AND brains behind the various arguments on using those weapons. There was good reason to believe that ending the war by less extreme measures would have cost thousands of American lives. There was reason to believe that the final overthrow of Japan would have been as bloody as the Normandy invasion or the earlier battles for Pacific Theater sites. There was a lot of ruthlessness already exchanged between sides and the war was NOT over.

I would not have wanted to have the decision to make.

And I don't really feel qualified to second-guess the people who had it to make.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

A "no-brainer" is the notion that a mainland invasion would ever have been necessary at all, with or without the atomic bomb.

It would not have.

When the Russians attacked the Japanese positions in Asia, the Japanese knew the jig was up. The Americans could have stood by, let the Russians devastate the Japanese armies on the mainland (which they certainly would have, having a crushing advantage in tanks and other heavy weaponry over the Japanese), and not lost a man, and the Japanese would have sued for peace anyway within quite a short time.

This, however, would have entailed the Russians possibly greatly expanding their Asian sphere of influence...and THAT Truman was not willing to contemplate. :-)

It was power politics, as always, people. And they called it "saving lives" in order to disguise their more weighty intentions which have to do with the gaining and wielding of power not the saving of lives. It's never about the saving of lives. It's about winning, and winning big.

Pete - Your general description of the Japanese attitude toward negotiations is pretty accurate. In that respect they acted exactly like any other country in their general position usually acts. They did not face up to the real possibility of defeat until it had become really quite undeniable on any rational basis. That's pretty typical, isn't it?

How long do you think the USA would remain defiant, if its navy and air force were smashed and its borders were being threatened with a fullscale foreign invasion? A long time, I figure. No country gives up its own sovereignty on its own land while it still has any means to resist effectively.

But...you don't have to take away another country's entire sovereignty to win or to end a war. You just have to put them in a clearly losing position, as the Japanese did to the Russians in 1905 or America did to Spain in 1898. Then they will negotiate.

(Nice lively thread, isn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM

I might add, however, that believing a mainland invasion of Japan was necessary may not have been quite so much of a "no-brainer" in 1945. It may just have been standard conventional thinking. After all, they had just done it in Europe, hadn't they? And in a whole series of island battles. So, they were simply following the usual procedure in planning for the next big event. I'd call that a bit unimaginative, but I wouldn't call it a "no-brainer". Not at that time.

I call it a no-brainer NOW, given the benefit of hindsight.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

I think a lot of people who are demonizing Truman on this thread have lost sight of an obvious difference between the US and UK on one hand, and the Japanese and Germans on the other, in WW2. The Germans and Japanese started the war by attacking the US, UK, France and other allies. They initiated the war. For LH to say something like "Without that madman Hitler, the Germans could have surrendered after Normandy" misses an obvious point: without that madman Hitler, France would not have been occupied by Germans. There would have been no Normandy, or surrender. Without the Japanese military command, the US would not have been at war with Japan.

People have also made the spurious argument that "the losers always get blamed for war crimes, and the victors always get off." In places like Rwanda, the victors are blamed for war crimes. In most wars, war crimes are an individual question: did so-and-so do thus-and-such? In the case of WW2 it was clearly different: the Nazis committed crimes the likes of which had not been seen before, at least not in Europeans' living memories. Their acts of aggression were so repugnant to practically everybody else that they made war crimes allegations inevitable. And again, they had initiated the war. But it is not usual for a war crimes tribunal to ask "was the whole course of action in fighting the war criminal?" Of course it is!

And then again, of course it isn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

Just a quip to yank Doug's chain, Amos. But you're right, some people thought about that a lot, and what some of them thought was pretty odious. General concensus here says they managed to conceal an agenda from those who had to say yes or no. What goes around comes around.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

What "general consensus", SRS? Is yours the only opinion that counts now or something?

Hawk - your analysis of the necessity for invasion is flawed, I'm afraid, as is your assertion (if I've remembered the author correctly) that the British & French are to be blamed for the Versailles Treaty, reparations & the humiliation of Germany. Regarding the latter, the British were against reparations. It was the insistence of the French along with the support of the Americans that led to VT.

As to the former, I haven't got time to type any more right now, sorry! I'll try to come back to this in the next day or two, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

No, Raedwulf, I've been reading the thread--where have you been? A substantial number of the people posting here seem to feel that Truman was gulled into dropping the bomb. They would give him the benefit of the doubt. I can't say that I share that opinion, because I haven't read enough about Truman the man (outside of this Mudcat forum) to form that particular opinion. Did you read it differently? Then just say so, no need to get snotty.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:51 PM

When the Russians attacked the Japanese positions in Asia, the Japanese knew the jig was up.

A bit presumptuous to know from such a distance through space and time what "the Japanese" knew, LH. For one thing they were sharply divided -- there was a strong central contingent of militarists who believed the jig would never be up until the lights went out. There was no unified point of view in Japan.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:03 PM

Re: War Crimes Trials

The Treaty of Versailles stipulated that the post-war republican government in Germany ("The Weimar Republic") should bring to justice those guilty of various war crimes, mostly committed in 1914 during the German invasion of Belgium.

In the interwar years, these atrocities were widely ridiculed in Britain, America, and of course Germany as the fantasies of English propagandists. But research of German army archives by German (and other) historians in the past ten or twenty years show without a doubt that such atrocities took place, for example, the destruction of several Belgian towns along with mass executions of civilians.

The German courts set up to try the accused had little interest in condemning German officers for crimes against "enemy" civilians in wartime. Virtually all the defendants (there were dozens of them) were acquitted.

The Allies in World War II determined that Nazi war criminals would not get off so easily.

Some of the accused Nazis, by the way, were actually acquitted. So much for the idea that the trials were just "for show."

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:20 PM

When the twin towers fell to the ground and with it the deaths of 3000 civilians, the USA rightfully sought out the criminals who did it and running them down shot and killed as many as they could find. It is still going on today, but mostly in Iraq.

Killing innocent civilians is saving up misfotune for the agency doing it! Maybe not in the short term, but in the end it will come back and whack the guilty in the head unless some mechanism is employed to resolve the issue.

I suspect that in the future we shall see a global legal system established to deal with such problems. Todays methods are unjust, costly and ineffective.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:52 PM

Les, you say the Japanese were attempting to surrender. How do you ATTEMPT to surrender? You either surrender or you don't.

I don't recall reading in any history that The Japanese said "OK we give up"

And being a child during WWII, I have read quite a lot about it since.

Mind you I am VERY BIASED, having been forced out of my home and separated from my family by GERMAN BOMBS. If I had been given the decision whether to drop the bomb or not I would certainly have said yes.


It's all well and good to sit back in the safety of your homes in fairly peaceful times. But to try to apply modern peaceful morals to those times is unrealistic - we were at WAR.

The Allied decision to fight WWII was inevitable. If the war hadn't been fought then we would be speaking German or Japanese right now.

Once you are fighting a war you have to kill them before they kill you. And The Japanese were STILL SHOOTING AT US. That doesn't seem to me like an attempt to surrender and I'm sure it didn't seem like that to the GIs being shot at.

If you are morally opposed to war, as most of us are, then use your indignation for the current political situation, and don't waste your energy on trying to revise history.

It's done, ALL of the people who were killed in WWII - ARE DEAD.
Let's use our energy and efforts to try to prevent WWIII.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:13 PM

From: beardedbruce - PM

Jack the Sailor:

"From a North American perspective, the Mudcat left, is pretty much everyone but DougR. "

Hardly. About 44% of the likely voters still support Bush, about the same that supports getting rid of him. You seem to have a vastly inflated opinion of the support that the Left has in this country.

You misunderstand me, I was talking about the "Mudcat" left. I will wager that for every Bush supporter on the Mudcat there are twenty who would vote against him.

The Mudcat "Right" is bout 10 or 15 people, a couple of whom have no name. The Mudcat "Left" is pretty much everyone else, with the exception of DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:28 PM

Jack the Sailor,

The "joke" is in your hand when you take a piss. As for your father, the best part of you was in his used rubber.

You do read my posts, burr-head. And you don't understand much about anything. I'm sick of being a liberal because of being identified with unwashed stained underwear types like yourself.

The Mudcat "left" like yourself are precisely what is wrong with Mudcat.    Your wife, especially. You are the worst possible of far-left liberals. You listen to nothing reasonable and have the common sense of a used tampon.

I claim and will claim to be a moderate, Jack-off the Sailor. Now eat the shit you shit.