Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: Folklore: Boycott Amazing Grace?????
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:31 PM

I have begun to feel mild pangs of revulsion when I hear my lefty folky friends sing Amazing Grace. Am I being silly or reasonable???? Here is a song written by a slave trader, a man who made his living through the kidnaping, and often the murder, of African men, women and children. Newton knew full well that he was ripping families apart and that many of his captives would die in the hull of his ship during the long journey across the seas. But he did it anyway, even after his "conversion" to Christianity. Newton had a dramatic conversion in May of 1948 1748 after a fearful storm at sea, but he continued about his slave trading business for another seven years or so after that. And even then, he did not quit out of compassion, but either because of illness or pressure from his English wife (reports vary. Either way, there was nothing noble about his career shift.) And, yes, later in life he became active against slavery. But such changes of heart, it seems to me, are easy as long as they don't affect the pocketbook. I have found no indication that Newton ever divested himself of the wealth he accumulated through his murderous activities. (And he freed none of his "merchandise" after encountering his Redeemer during the 19481748 storm.)

Should we be singing this song??? Or should we leave it for the Klan? I'd sure be curious what folks think about this.

Steve Baughman
San Francisco

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Plonker
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:42 PM

1948?

Surely, you mean 1748?

I presume by your 'lefty friends' you mean most of the Christian church, no matter what denomination.

Do get a grip!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:45 PM

A fair question, Steve. Too often we hear the tale that Newton's "dramatic conversion" led to his immediately giving up the slave trade, which as you say is not true at all.

My own feeling is that anyone can sing any song, regardless of what kind of person wrote it. For many songs, we'll never know if the person who wrote it was good or evil. Also, meaning is not encoded into a song once, to remain forever static thereafter. To the extent that the text and context allows it, we get to decide what songs mean. "Amazing Grace" can be an anti-slavery song, or it can have nothing to do with slavery, because its text is really about conversion, but does not describe the specifics.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

lefty friends?
This gets sung by right wing conservatives too.
You used 1948 twice - a cut and paste or are you blind with anger?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

I don't know if 'we' should be singing it, but if the author's background makes you uncomfortable, then you probably shouldn't.

But did Newton ever "kidnap" anyone? More likely, he - like other slavers - purchased slaves from African tribal leaders who were willing participants in the trade.

I hope we don't have to disavow all manifestations of our various cultural inheritances that are tainted by wrongdoing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Your choice...

But I think the song could be viewed as his start of a "new life" and that his personal changes came about more slowly. From Wikipedia:

John Newton has been criticised by some modern writers for continuing to participate in the slave trade while, at the same time, holding to strong Christian convictions. This has often been characterised as hypocrisy. But this should be seen in the light of his own estimation of the true timing of his Christian conversion. Writing about the definite change that had happened to him in 1748, Newton would later write:

'I was greatly deficient in many respects...I cannot consider myself to have been a believer (in the full sense of the word) till a considerable time afterwards."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Why not? It's a beautiful hymn with a wonderful sentiment.

Like it or not, slave trading was legal in 1748. While we in the 21st century condemn slave trading as immoral, many of our 18th century forbears didn't share that opinion, and it would be another hundred-plus years before slavery was abolished altogether in the US. I don't think you can accurately judge an 18th century man by 21st century standards.

If you're truly concerned about slavery, visit the Polaris Project online, or any other organization that's against modern-day human trafficking.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

ER - 1948?

I rather think that it is a bit earlier than that, and you simply can't impose a modern sensitivity on historical figures.

They aren't us, we might have to live with what they did, but we can't judge their actions by how we live now, not if we want to understand anything of why things are as they today or get the slightest notion of how they really were and why.

It is as useless to get all worked up about the slave trade between Africa and the US as it would be to get upset about the feudal system in England, or the clan system in Scotland. Then is not now.

Remember too that the slavers would simply collect up the results of expeditions into the interior made by others - who would also be buying the results of local wars and disputes. If the captives had no value they might all have been killed at once.

The slave shippers, from what I have read, did not personally make journeys into the interior to collect slaves - there are still the ruins of huge slave holding areas on the shores of West Africa. The ships called in, loaded up and left.

All of which down not really have much bearing on the song or the singing of it.

It has come down to us that the song was written by a particular person who made his living so and we know a few of the things that happened to him, but we don't know much really, and life is all too short to go agonising about things long gone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

Well, I hear ya, but I have to say that when I sing it, I sing it for what it says, as a communication-in-the-moment, and I don't go looking for freight to attach to it.

I'd hate to think what sort of freight might show up if we required "moral clean bill of health" on authors before we would deign to sing their songs. Drunkards, druggies, serial relationships of questionable moral status, and gawd knows what all. Maybe homicidal maniacs.

The song should be sung for what it does in the present.

It's not like you're genetrating royalties to slave traders with every performance.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:03 PM

Given that "Amazing Grace" is one of the most popular hymns in the African American church, as well as elsewhere, it's probably culturally okay.

But more than that - the slow nature of Newton's turnaround doesn't make the turnaround any less real. Most "conversions" are merely steps in a long process - they begin slowly and take years to work themselves out. Often, they are incomplete and less than perfect. The watershed moment represented by "Amazing Grace" is a marker of the process John Newton went through, but it doesn't represent the whole thing. It is instead the product of a combination of fear, guilt, and - and this is the amazing part - the recognition that even a "wretch," caught up in the worst kind of evil, is redeemable. That it took years for Newton to realize even part of that redemption is entirely normal - and it is the universality of THAT experience that resonates with so many millions.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM

1748, sorry, and not only did I blow that, but I could not figure out how to edit the original text after I posted it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:05 PM

To not sing this song because the author was a slaver makes about as much sense as for people to repudate their US citizenship because many of the founding fathers owned slaves.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

I get that slavery was legal in the 18th Century. Newton did nothing illegal. Just like the Mullahs do nothing illegal when they order women stoned to death for adultery. It's the law. Killing Gypsies, Jews and gays during the Third Reich was also legal. I consider legality irrelevant. I'm talking moralty.

There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok. There were plenty of folks speaking out against it. It's not like I'm expecting Newton to have singularly spotted the issue and taken a solitary stand against what everyone else thought was ok.

It appears that I have more trouble than most posters here separating the writer from the music, especially when the writer was engaged in so odious a form of livelihood. I am also troubled by the fact that Newton wrote the song before he expressed remorse about slave trading.   Song 1772, regret around 1780. It sort of corrupts his message in my mind, that he apparently did not consider slave trading a contributing factor to his being a "wretch".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

Steve:

If your own conscience requires injecting into the song what you know about the song-writer 200 plus years earlier, then the song is perhaps not one you should sing. Take a stand and refuse to sing it on the basis you describe.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Not everyone will feel that way about it, and I expect it's a decision best left up to the individual singer.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

Hmmm - I didn't know the history. This is one of the few hymns I like, because (a) pretty, singable tune and (b) no mention of any deities, at least not in the first verse.

And just because it's legal doesn't make it right. Not any more than it being illegal is what makes it wrong...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:24 PM

I have to say that I don't really believe in dramatic conversions, or in lives that are perfect in their moral purity - or at least I don't believe that such things happen for most of us. Fundamentalists do seem to have these dramatic conversions, but it often seems to be just a move from one mindless addiction to another. For most of us, conversion takes a lifetime of stumbling.

I'm a really nice guy, and I've been a pacifist for most of my life - but I made a good living for 28 years doing security clearances for the defense, nuclear weapons, border control, and prisons of the U.S. Government. I disagree with major aspects of all of these, but I rationalize that at least I was working to ensure that decent people were working in these programs. Still, the fact remains that I derived the bulk of my income from nuclear weapons and immigration suppression. That being the case, I can hardly claim any sort of moral purity.

We live in a sinful society of sinful people, and maybe that's a good thing. Only demagogues and dictators can claim moral superiority, and look what awful things they do with that superiority.

Newton wasn't perfect, but neither was the world he lived in. He may have converted partly because of pressure or other less-than-noble reasons, but he did go through the process of conversion and he did grow into the role of a sincere abolitionist.

I think I'd rather sing the songs of a man who went through a difficult, sincere journey of conversion. I love "Amazing Grace," and I'll continue to sing it without any moral qualms whatsoever.

-Joe-

---

And now I'll put on my "editor" hat:
I fixed the date for you, Steve. If you use the "preview" function, you can edit what you wrote. Once you've made a final submission of a post, you have to ask one of us editors to fix things for you - or just post a second, corrected message and we'll semi-automatically delete the incorrect one.

And, I fixed the second date<;-) - el joe clone -

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:28 PM

(BIG GIANT....YAWN!!!) May God, law, rock 'n roll, the scientific method, and all or any other forms of providence give me strength to endure. It's a good tune, awright? If you like it, sing it. If you don't, don't!

Now, where the hell did that teapot go?

(and that's my sole response to the post that began this thread...)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:31 PM

Steve, I think your question was fair. Those that jumped on an incorrect date are certainly entitled to do so, but it speaks more about them than you.

I believe the answer, for me at least, lies in my intent in singing it, as well as what I believe to to be the emotion evoked in the mind of the listener. The evolving awareness of Newton's actions may change that, but for now this song seems to evoke the kinds of thoughts that the grandchild of the Abolitionist movement, that being today's Civil Rights movement, often uses the song. I would point to the David Roth & Anne Hills song, "Amazing Grace/That Kind of Grace" as an example of this. I am so moved by this songs ability to demonstrate that those with the least of reason to exhibit "Amazing Grace" are often the ones that teach us its true meaning. This is one of those songs, for me, where the author probably didn't have a clue as to what his song meant. It is somehow ironically appropriate that a slave trader would be the one that wrote the song that the grandchildren of slaves would adopt as an anthem. I guess if it's good enough for them, it's plenty good enough for me.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:32 PM

The question is entirely too politically correct for me--my first thought is "get a grip," like someone else said.

I don't practice a religion--I'm rather ardently non-christian, yet I find this a beautiful and simple song. We bring our own experience and understanding to a historic song like this, and meanings do change over time. The simple concept can't be appropriated by one particular religion, the idea of Grace is like that of Morality--it's bigger than one religion or the period in which the song was written.

Jessie Norman performing this sends chills up my spine every time I hear it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:35 PM

(Little Hawk, for those who do not know him, protects his frontal lobes from impure, irrational thought emanations (which are just everywhere) by keeping an inverted teapot (extra-large) over them when he is not posting...).


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:38 PM

A teapot ach jings ahv bin missinformed ah wis telt it wis a big auld iron skillett.

Subject: Lyr req: Amazing Grace/That Kind of Grace
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:39 PM

Hi, Mick -
Where can I find a recording of that David Roth/Anne Hills song? Can you post the lyrics? I have to say I'm not fond of the revisionist verses included in the Rise Up Singing songbook.
That's not David LEE Roth, is it?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:39 PM

OK so let's examine the origins of all such songs and jettison those which do not meet with approval:-
Alcohol is bad for you..so lets get rid of all the songs with alcohol in.
Murder is not too good either so let's get rid of any murderous songs.
Disease is bad so no songs with disease in.
Breaking up of partnerships is not very nice so let's not sing about it.
What else shall we get rid of Folkies? Is therew anything left in the Folk idiom?
Or should we just sing as we want to?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Tambo
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:51 PM

Dylan was a Jew, then an aetheist, then a born again Christian (although he was never born a Christian in the first place) so what is he now? And how does that affect his songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Joe,

My favorite version is found on Matt Watroba's "Live at the Ark" recording. It features Robert Jones singing with Matt. When Jones' voice kicks in on the second verse of the "Amazing Grace" opening, it sends chills up my spine. Matt's recordings are featured at http://www.folkslikeus.org/watroba/records.htm. You will have to scroll down to the Live at the Ark portion.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Georgian, we're not talking about subjects but about the songwriters.

Even the most craven person can create something beautiful, and as others have pointed out, Newton did, in fact, change his beliefs. Most people go their whole lives without ever even looking for their own shortcomings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

"There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok. There were plenty of folks speaking out against it."

That's true, and as I already pointed out it was another century before slavery was abolished - so maybe that awareness was not as widespread as you suggest.

Again, if you want to do something about slavery NOW, instead of picking over what happened 200 years ago, google "human trafficking" and find an anti-slavery organization you'd like to support.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

Should we support George Washington or Thomas Jefferson who held slaves?

I think that a pattern of a person's life becomes more important than any particular
position held at one time. Lincoln did not want equality for Black People when he
came into the presidency but he did change his point of view radically. Jefferson
fought to have slavery outlawed in Virginia.

Amazing Grace is about the realization and discovery that a person can be a "wretch"
but overcome it. "I once was blind but now I see" is an important part of this song.
When people change for the better, they should be commended for it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

I don't sing Amazing Grace because I'm tired of it. I think it's an overdone song. We sing a lot of gospel tunes in our trio - I don't have to agree with the theology to enjoy singing the song. But I also wouldn't have to be a hooker to sing "House of the Rising Sun". Songs enable us to take on characters that we would never want to emulate. Otherwise no one would ever sing "Banks of the Ohio" or "Delia".

Steve - get back in the studio. I want to hear a followup to your duet recording with Robin Bullock. Any chances of that?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:23 PM

I found the Matt Watroba recording, Mick - it's good. Turns out the lyrics for "That Kind of Grace" were posted here (click) - by some guy named Joe Offer...

-Joe Forgetful-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:25 PM

About three decades ago, I worked as an announcer at a classical music radio station. One afternoon, I put the afternoon's scheduled featured work on the turntable, announced what it was and who was doing it, started the turntable, flipped off the mic switch, and sat back with my feet propped up, a fresh cup of coffee in my hand, and enjoyed the music.

The light on the telephone lit up (the phone in the studio didn't ring in case the mic was open; a light told you that you had a caller). I picked it up and said, "Good afternoon. KXA."

The caller—with a European accent—was furious! He launched into a tirade about the station playing "Nazi music," and threatened alternately to have me fired or have the station's FCC license pulled. There was no calming the man. He was in a frenzy of rage. Finally, he ran out of steam and hung up.

I did a little research, and eventually discovered that the featured work of the afternoon had been a favorite of Adolf Hitler's.

It was a Beethoven piano concerto.

Hitler was also fond of Richard Wagner's operas, and to compound the felony, Wagner was known to be fiercely anti-Semitic. But this didn't prevent him from writing some pretty magnificent music.

Somehow, I don't think listening to—or performing—Beethoven or Wagner, or for that matter, Richard Strauss (another of Hitler's favorites), is an endorsement of Nazi politics, or that going to a Wagner opera means one approves of anti-Semitism. It isn't exactly as if Wagner is still receiving royalties and you are supporting him financially.

I have a repertoire of a few hundred songs. Since the vast majority of them are traditional, and the authors—and the beliefs, peculiarities, and peccadilloes of the authors—are not only unknown, but unknowable to me, I take a song or other work of art on its own merit, not on what kind of an odd-ball the composer or artist might have been, or who else might also like the work.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:39 PM

*IF* the issue was about a living composer with nasty political views, and boycotting a song could deny him royalties and put pressure on him, then it would be useful...but 250 years in the past? Nope...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM

I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung.

But seriously, 'Amazing Grace' is a song that has been validated
by its singers, and the times at which they've sung it. So very
often it's been sung at particularly poignant times in the lives
of individuals and groups to express the sentiment that there's
something bigger than all of us which binds the universe together.

It's the singer--- not the author--- and the times and company
in which it's sung that bespeaks the merit of a song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:14 PM

I don't sing this (I hold no religious beliefs) but I have always assumed its singers were expressing wonder and joy at their personal salvation, rather than just echoing that of an earlier reformed sinner. As such it seems to me that the exact nature of the sin would be a secondary matter. Have I simply had the wrong end of the stick?

Either way I recognise a fine song, as do many other non-believers I am sure. That I cannot subscribe to its sentiment is my loss.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:34 PM

You could always consider that it may have been what my brother calls Divine Inspiration that brought it out of Newton; in those few moments it took him to write it down, he was "At One" with whatever higher being he believed in or you might believe in.

Just a suggestion. I know there are times when I listen to Mozart, Beethoven and others, including some folk, when I feel the music is absolutely sublime and directly channelled from someone's heart which was fully open to receiving when they wrote it. My brother leads a fairly miserable life, but when he sets aside his self-pity and starts in on his compositions, he goes to another realm. The music he writes in no way reflects his circumstances at the time; as far as he is concerned it is divinely inspired. It certainly sounds like it to a lot of folks. Perhaps that was the case with Newton.

Imagine having a flash of clarity like that which would inspire such a beautiful song. It would be difficult to sustain that and probably wouldn't be very healthy for one to do so, anyway.

Well, that's my metaphysical two cents worth...:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:53 PM

"I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung."

(Well, I'd pick the slavers on that one, and I really hope you would too.) In any event, I'm not telling anyone to do or not do anything. I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of.

A broader question, of course, is the extent to which the politics of artists should affect our enjoyment of their art (Wagner is a fine example, Hank Williams, Jr. is another). It is a tough question, and I think it's important one to ask. I'm a bit taken aback by the folks who think it is ogre-like of me to do so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:55 PM

and feel warm fuzzies when they do

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

I don't think you are ogre like for asking. Sounds to me like you are a performer with a conscience. I hope your concerns are alleviated by the comments so far.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

"I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of."

Yeah, and every time I drive down a country road and look at the
beautiful stone walls, I'll keep in mind that slaves built them. That
way I can suitably ruin the whole experience. Hell, maybe I'll just pull over, pick a rock off the top and bash
my brains out with it in order to assuage my guilt at having enjoyed
the view.

While I'm at it I'll light my Nike sneakers on fire, and toss my
Victorian era concertinas into the blaze. After all, the former
are made by underpaid foreign labor and the latter were made by
industrial revolution era wage-slaves.

Guess I can dump my guitars onto the blaze, as well--- they've
got rain forest wood in them.

Maybe I'll just sit at home and do nothing at all, that way I won't
offend anyone. No, damn it--- the studs in my house's frame were
made from clear-cut Pacific Northwest forests, and the gypsum in
the wallboard was probably strip-mined.

If you don't want to sing Amazing Grace, then don't.

But do stop trying to poison it for everyone else, and FOR GOD'S
SAKE RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S YOUR PROBLEM NOT EVERYONE ELSE'S. If you
have the flu, you don't cough on other people on purpose. So maybe
stop trying to make your personal neuroses contagious as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:29 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: maeve
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:39 PM

I see no reason that you shouldn't wrestle with this question if you have the need. Conversion must be joined by repentence and change. There are (thankfully) no rules regarding the required time span for this gradual spiritual growth to take place, except that it does need to be before death.

I've read various Newton biographies over the years, and have great respect for him and for his wife, for struggling with the need for personal change and committment to God's standard in place of a personal human standard. Perfection is not required. God is particularly concerned with reaching those of us who struggle and fail miserably. The journey is its own reward.

I treasure the song and the details of Newton's life because it gives me hope and comfort. His is a perfect example of imperfect man beginning to recognize his shortcomings and the very long learning curve that follows, leading him toward becoming a child of God. Put it into whatever translation you must, but allow yourself to work through what your personal goblins might be. It's between you and God. Meanwhile, I'm glad you asked. Find a song you can sing with your whole heart.

maeve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:43 PM

"I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso."

I am both the Celtic guitar player and the attorney. We're the same person. I'm a rare visitor to Mudcat, but I was at a song session last night and had a reaction (for the first time in my life, by the way) to Amazing Grace. I thought I'd see what folks here had to say about the issue. Thanks for being here to discuss.   

As for Greg B's tyrade, (may I call it that? I think that's what it was), I am, again, puzzled by the tantrums folks are throwing over me raising the issue. Could it be that people don't like to admit that the personal really is political? Is that really too inconvenient a truth for us to want to bother with? I applaud Greg B for recognizing that some human suffering is behind our Nike shoes, a lot went into the stone walls that the slaves built, and our rosewood guitars may indeed contribute to rain forest destruction. What I don't understand is the angry energy over one bringing the point up. These things are not just "my problem." The issue is one with broader implications.

I recognize that we've gone from an old song to current events, but I suspect that there is benefit in recognizing, as Greg B does, that some unpleasant truths might lurk behind the things that we enjoy. Better to know about those truths than not to, eh?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:49 PM

"It's a fair question...". Actually, like SRS, GregB, Don Firth and others, no, I don't think so, not with its connotations of rule-setting. But I would grant that Steve asked the question innocently, albeit in the grip of some anger. Me, I like to remind myself of Si Kahn's line, when I get close to being overly righteous:

"I'm afraid of what you're doing in the name of your god..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:57 PM

"not with its connotations of rule-setting"

Amen, rule setting is bad. But awareness is good, even when it's of bad things.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:58 PM

Mr. Newton is long dead. He tried to come to terms with the errors in his life that he saw, which is the best that any of us can do. None of us are in a position to judge him, in part at least, because none of us know what was in his heart.

Slavery still exists in this world. Both children and adults are still sold into bondage in West Africa, there are slaves held in Sudan, Pakistan, Haiti, India, and many other places. Check this for an overview-Slavery in the Modern World

Whether you sing "Amazing Grace" or not has no effect on the situation of human beings who are being held in slavery. There are a lot of other actions that you can take which may make a difference. The choice, as always, is yours alone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM

"Awareness is good".
Can't fault that, Steve. And indeed, I learned much in this thread about Newton that I didn't know before.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:20 PM

But Steve, where does it stop?

Some music critic took Leonard Bernstein to task for "plagiarizing" Beethoven, pointing out that for the song "There's a Place of Us" in West Side Story, Bernstein had used a passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto, "The Emperor." "Plagiarize!?" snorted Bernstein. "That's a bit harsh. Yes, I did use the tune. Composers have always borrowed from each other. Standard operating procedure. Besides, that's far too beautiful a melody to be used only once!"

In fact, according to Carl Czerny, a friend of Beethoven's, the slow middle movement of the concerto is based on an Austrian pilgrim hymn (!).

So—for enlightenment and education of the listener who was upset by my playing a Beethoven piano concerto and who seemed to believe that Beethoven should not be played because Adolph Hitler happened to be fond of his music, I would suggest that he should also beware of Bernstein and avoid listening to music from Broadway musicals like West Side Story. And a great deal of other music! Because unless you have a very good memory for a lot of melodic and harmonic figures, you might inadvertently find yourself listening to something that will leave you morally and ethically polluted. Perhaps he should stop listening to music altogether!

I am certainly aware of the evil in the world, and I am hardly idle when it comes to trying to combat it whenever I can. But speaking of pollution, I am not going to pollute my own aesthetic enjoyment of music or any of the other arts by researching and carefully scrutinizing the moral character of every artist whose work I consider listening to, seeing, playing, or singing in order to determine whether I should be doing so or not. The moral character of the artist died with him. The art lives on. And unless it consists of propaganda for something that is morally remiss, it is no longer a moral issue.

A work of Art stands or falls on its own merits. What baggage the artist may or may not have carried is not relevant.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:31 PM

I think Steve brings up a perfectly valid point.

whether you agree with it or not, it is surely possible to have a reasoned discussion about it without all the aggressive defensiveness.

to take a wildly hypothetical case, if an absolutely beautiful song were discovered, and it was later established that it had been written by Hitler, would anybody sing it ?

I did say wildly hypothetical ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

"But Steve, where does it stop?"

Yes, Don, that's the tough question. Do we get to where we assume an affirmative duty to investigate the political origins of music before we enjoy it? I'd say no. The KKK uses one of my favorite hymns regularly (Old Rugged Cross). It will not stop me from enjoying the song. It might, however, give me pause about starting the song at a multi-racial song circle in Alabama. Point is, more awareness is good.

But you're right. Where does it stop? I'd invoke my favorite philosopher here, Richard Rorty, who noted that by the absence of absolute rules we are forever condemned to "muddling through." And we muddle through better when we have more awareness than when we have less. Not being naive about the origins of Amazing Grace is better than being naive about them.

You probably find my answer (Rorty's)as unsatisfactory, as I do. But I think it's all we've got.