BS: Disaster for the Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:44 AM

It is clear from this side of the pond that Americans are not fit to govern themselves. We should take it back

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:24 AM

"apolitical grass roots movement"?

Apolitical my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:29 AM

For what it is worth , here is a view from an Independent that many like me share. My concern with the Republican party as of late is this. In the past, I could find Democrats that were conservative, I could find Republicans that were Liberal .. In short I could find a diverse group of folks that were elected to do one thing and that was represent the people. What disturbs me IMO is that I can still see moderate or conservative Democrats, and those people can get elected. However it is less likely that I will find a moderate republican. If one is not on the outer edge, they have no chance to run. This disturbs me as I have respect for both parties. I would like to see the Republican party back to where it once was many years ago.

Likewise, if either party doesn't work together, they will be out. I do not think the Independents looked at this election as an embrace of the republican party, but more of we will force a change but you need to get your act together. I think that is true .. if either side does what it has been doing, party politics, the Independent vote (the ones that will put you in or out of office) will easily swing either way.   My take for what it is worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM

I voted against a democrat. I felt that the independent was better qualified to be governor, but, the non thinkers supported the republican, a bad tempered liar and he won with 1% of the vote. He is the type who will think he has a mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:16 AM

Kendall,

He does have a mandate. He won. And he won because you (and people like you) didn't vote for the Democrat.

Did you all learn nothing from the UK elections?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:45 AM

I think the biggest mistake a person can do is not vote for the person they think can lead because it may put the "other guy" in office. That is a mistake and goes against everything freedom is suppose to be. I would never do that, I would not recommend anyone doing that. Let the chips fall as they may but one needs to vote their heart and their conscience or the whole thing doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:07 AM

1994....and then the Newt Gingrich House made fools of themselves

As if the Repubs in the House haven't been making fools of themselves for the last two years, Joe?

Some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

It likes as if the Republicans have recaptured both houses of the Maine Legislature, something which hasn't happened since the early 1960's when they owned the State.

The Governor-elect is a Republican conservative as well but with a narrow enough victory that there will be an automatic recount; the second place finisher is an independent candidate while the Democratic contender finished with 19% of the vote.

Democratic incumbants retained both Congressional seats which is about the only bright spot on an otherwise dreary looking morning.

Time to go out and collect the rest of the yard signs!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:33 AM

They are still counting Kendall. Be patient. I don't think Cutler has conceded.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:58 AM

" work WITH each other".    Fine.   Now, with hyperpartisans, especially the Tea Party, joining Congress, and pledging to work with the other side--as long as the other side agrees to do what they want, i.e. to roll back "Obamacare" and otherwise backtrack-- how likely to do think your pious exhortation is to become reality?

I did in fact give at least one area--immigration-- where I think the Democrats can peel off enough Republicans to make progress.    And they need to try hard--if only to prove to Hispanics that they deserve big support in 2012.

Aside from that, it seems--especially with the split so much more even--- that all an objective observer can foresee is even more endless wrangling than we've had already.

Maybe the US Congress is actually a Mudcat thread on religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM

Ron
That is a danger - you are right for concern, Now one of the biggest challenges for the Republican leaders I think is how to get the extreme edges in line as to accomplish something (anything) that we will see. Maybe now the fear in both parties is people are going to boot you if you play the politics game. I sure hope that is the message. I don't think anyone but the naive would think this is a republican mandate. One only has to look at the independent vote to see that. Like I said my personal choices got clobbered but I have to think that maybe the change will provide something useful. I keep my fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

"The Republicans have had nothing to say about the legislatve agenda or the Federal spending in four years."

Oh Bullshit. They have been given every opportunity to participate. They have specificaly **chosen** to stonewall and obstruct. Dont' believe me, listen to what McConnel and DeMint and Pence and Boehner have said! They actually admit this.
You can't claim that their lack of participation is anything else...unless of course you are a puppet of the Kochs and China whose brain is full of the jello Fox put there.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

"Maybe the US Congress is actually a Mudcat thread on religion."

LOL!!! It IS, Ron, it IS! The entire USA 2-party system is a Mudcat thread on religion, guaranteed to produce division, scorn, hatred, despise, misunderstanding, and yet more irreconcilable division...because that's exactly what it is designed to do.

There is simply no possibility that the supporters of Democrats and the supporters of Republicans will ever unite in common cause...EXCEPT....and this is a big except....when there is a spectacularly violent attack of some kind on America that is perceived to have come from a foreign source. 911, for example. A Reichstag fire. The sinking of the Maine. The torpedoing of the Lusitania. Pearl Harbour. The fictional Gulf of Tonkin attack. Something along that line.

That type of evnet does briefly unite almost your entire public, Democrats and Republicans alike, in a frenzy of fear and rage, and they send off their young people to slaughter some foreigners on some distant piece of real estate. It works for awhile. But the complex reasons behind the event are always hidden and never really understood by the vast majority of the public that reacts to the event. It's a gambit that your ruling corporate/defense Oligarchy will resort to or take advantage of when all else fails.

Watch out for it. If it happens again, it will not be good at all, and you won't want to be standing anywhere near to where it happens.

In the meantime...YES...the American political scene and the American Congress are like a Mudcat thread on religion. Two irreconcilable points of view, and never the twain shall meet...and the anger and chauvinism generated by that divide will keep you all fighting each other forever instead of bringing down the corporate plutocrats who really rule your nation by the power of their money and by America's gigantic national debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:51 AM

How Obama Saved Capitalism and Lost the Midterms.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM

"The entire USA 2-party system is a Mudcat thread on religion,"

People on Mudcat usually hold pretty entrenched positions on this. To an outsider, it seems that the opinion of much of the US electorate blows back and forth in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:12 AM

Amos: that is an interesting item. Waiting for the more erudite family members to read it and see what they think. After two days of travel - from Montreal to Whidbey Island (near Seattle) - I am still not thinking clearly!

Re the election, Animaterra posted on FB:‎"...if I had a thing to give you, I would tell you one more time that the world is always turning toward the morning..."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Indeed Obama saved Capitalism but that was not the bridge too far.
IT was not going for medicare for all, and even if it would not pass everyone would feel they understood what it was and could dream and work harder to achieve it.

Despite passing the law to insure equal pay for women, and other liberal agenda laws unpopoular with corporations, enough mama grizzlies narrowed the gap getting closer to the majority of women who are democrats.


There is no disaster or earthquake or tidal wave...there is the opposite. There will be a stagnant gridlock that will ensue as Congressman Issa will appoint 76 new investigators to establish blame soley on the white house and various goverment employees tha will make the lawsuits which plagued Clinton look like a parking ticket.

On the heels of ACORN's destruction, Issa will target unions and community groups that will face the stings and arrows of outrageous misfortune with false accusations and "corrupt liberal bastard" witch hunts.

So as the people will suffer the delays of investigations, it will allow banks to continue their forclosure feeding frenzy, the repeal of basic Obama Wall St. reforms and health care and will only go to will prove that the Republicans are only starting their 2012 presidential campaign, as all of American's basic corporate corruption problems will continue unabbated.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:17 AM

Jeez.....In a DEMOCRACY the people spoke. By the sounds of it, that pisses a lot of you off. What did you expect?..another failed edict from 'On High'?

Whether any of us like it or not, and there is room for apprehension, the people voted. Had the Democrats LISTENED to the American people when they were ramming their agendas through, this might not have happened...but...

......What goes around, comes around!

Fair enough?

Too bad both polarized parties don't give a shit!..The illusion they are selling you, is that they do. Get over it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

Say what you like about Bush and sarah Paling and all the rest of them...at least they're not black.

Isn't that really what its all about? there was no way Obama was going sort out the shish kebab Bush had made of his country in two years.

centre right...my arse! given the social history of the USA, there must be millions of Americans to whom a black President is unacceptable.

I can't really imagine a black politician getting even as far as Obabma did in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

BTW I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am for any person party or movement that understand this ONE BASIC TRUTH>>>
ONE BASIC TRUTH

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

In a DEMOCRACY the people spoke. By the sounds of it, that pisses a lot of you off.

No, in a DEMOCRACY the INFORMED ELECTORATE is supposed to speak. This time around, the contest was decided by uninformed ignoramuses on the basis of Republican TeaBagger lies and an Amazon-sized river of bullshit and fear.

I think you'll find that THAT is what pisses a lot of us off.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:41 AM

Donuel: "BTW I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am for any person party or movement that understand this ONE BASIC TRUTH>>>"....(and then the link.

We cross threaded, and I AGREE!!!!
As I just posted:

GfS; "Too bad both polarized parties don't give a shit!..The illusion they are selling you, is that they do. Get over it!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:41 AM

Greg how did you become such a reasoning human being?
Was it a mentor, higher education or an innate thirst for wisdom?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

"The rich bastards at the top of the system"

No LH, it is the talking heads you see on TV and the book writers and the talk radio shows that profit from the divisions the most.

The rich bastards profit either way.

Why do people have to have something to blame everything on? Does it excuse them from having to admit to being part of the problem?

I feel like I am on the sidelines watching a big ass rumble between two foolish gangs or tribes.

I voted for the person, not the tribe they belonged to. I based it on their stance on different issues. I voted for Democrats and Republicans. I didn't let partisan politics [tribal warfare] blind me.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

Just dumb luck, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM

I am, as you'd expect, disappointed that there was such a swing to the right. I understand 'why' in some ways, and I don't understand in others..(and don't give me wild generalizations purporting to 'explain' some of the stranger results...pundits whose business it is are still puzzling over many results).

What I am fascinated and encouraged by is that a number of the most extreme Tea-Party/Republicans did NOT win, and Alaska may still avoid one of the worst. Meg Whitman's money didn't buy her a win, and may have even worked against her. Christene O'Donnell was soundly rejected...Sharron Angle failed to knock off Harry Reid, even though many in Nevada were disappointed in Reid. That tells you that many simply saw what a disaster Angle would have been.

There were still many wins by right-wingers that will make this next Congress awkward....mostly for the Republican leadership that has to cope with their mouths for at least 2 years.

All *I* can do is what I did yesterday...vote and read and try to make sense of it all....and occasionally say so here on Mudcat... ☺.

This election, even as it disappoints me, shows that we CAN change things, and that is a good thing. We shall see which way the wind is blowing in 2 years, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM

INFORMED ELECTORATE??????

Informed by who?? The people Carlin was referring to in the link??
You obviously succumb too easily to flattery.....You should apply to be in Obama's cabinet!

I think what you meant was FOOLED AGAIN ELECTORATE!

And Donuel, you just contradicted yourself again...Is this some sort of 'musical surprise' through counterpoint??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:01 PM

>>Likewise, if either party doesn't work together, they will be out. I do not think the Independents looked at this election as an embrace of the republican party, but more of we will force a change but you need to get your act together.<<<

If your test is the lack of willingness to work togther, you are the one who has failed. As others have said, all you had to do is pay attention the Republicans announced strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

Well, GfS...we could go back to elections of 100...or 200 years ago, when poll taxes and literacy tests and laws denying the vote to women were providing a slightly MORE "informed electorate".

In the meantime, we need to find ways to cut down on the amount of blatant lying used to FOOL the electorate. Impossible, you say? Perhaps...but a goal....

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

Yeah, Bill, but instead of LISTENING to reason, one side or the other, they'll just argue...looking to cater to the common denominator of the lowest intelligence!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:16 PM

If there were no parties period, we would be in a much better situation I think. Many states allow anyone to vote in a primary (not just a party member) I think if everyone was an Independent things would be better or at least have a chance at being better. I also think the big dollars made quite a bit of impact. The spending was obscene and it will get worse. The Supreme Court ruling did not do the country any favors. But as I said - along with power and being elected comes with it great expectations. We will see if they hold the job or not or simply have it continue to be a bitch session in congress and nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

Yup. A Fooled Again electorate. The electorate is fooled every time. They were fooled when Reagan was elected. They were fooled when Bush I was elected. They were fooled when Clinton was elected. They were fooled when Bush II was elected(?). They were fooled when Bush II was elected(?) again. They were fooled when Obama was elected. They were fooled at this midterm election. They will continue being fooled by the great Duopoly as it serves the corporate/banking Oligarchy that funds it and plays the people off against each other through divisive media Hoo-Hah, war propaganda, race baiting, gender baiting, trivial sex and crime stories, sensationalism and "news" that is nothing more than a mixture of superficial entertainment and bizarre propaganda...because a few people at the top of the Oligarchy own the mass media, and the purpose of the mass media is to manufacture public opinion and keep the public divided, misinformed, angry, ignorant, afraid, drugged, and distracted.

Donuel, your George Carlin clip is right on the mark. Americans actually live in Orwell's 1984...but it's quite different from the way Orwell envisioned it in his book. He did not realize how ruthlessly effective a privately owned corporate marketing and banking system can be when placed in the hands of utterly unscrupulous people. He thought something like Stalinism would be the ultimate threat. He was wrong about that. Dour, austere Stalinism is simply not nearly as good at seducing people as a clever corporate marketing system is...because a corporate marketing system appeals directly to their weaknesses and their appetites and gives them the impression that they have a choice. Thus the monkeys don't even see the bars of the cage that is placed around them. They cooperate in their own enslavement. They become their own jailers.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:22 PM

If you feel you are on the sidelines you are too close to see the real game. You have to step far enough back to see the owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:23 PM

Trends:

Access to the "best health care system in the world" will become more and more difficult. As more companies cut or eliminate health care for their employees(as mine has), NOT offering health insurance will become more and more the norm. When the average angry white voter has lost his health insurance, and can find no other without taking out a second mortgage, the clamor for a national health insurance program will become a mandate which even propaganda can't overcome.

Things in the marketplace ARE improving. Republicans and Tea Partyists choose to ignore the growing recovery, just as many liberals chose to ignore the success of the Surge in Iraq.Truth is, had Obama not injected massive cash into the system, and had the banks been allowed to fail, the average ignorant voter would have had a hell of a lot more to be pissed about. The truth is, at Obama's election, we were tiptoe on the brink of complete economic collapse. Two years later, we have the luxury of criticizing his approach as wasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:24 PM

"... they'll just argue..."

Yep..a lot of them will. We are coping with personalities as well as sense and reason. Gotta start somewhere, though.

Dan, I too favor some better way of conducting primaries and finding decent candidates. Reducing the effect of big spending is a major part of it. There are SO many reasonably competent ones who would never even try because of the time and expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:29 PM

The best health care system in the world is presently in France, LEJ and the USA stands in about 37th place worldwide. ;-) But I would assume you know that. You did, after all, place quotation marks around the phrase "best health care system in the world" (Ha! Ha!).

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

Actually, the best health care SYSTEM in found in Taiwan.
And Donuel, will you make up at least one of your minds???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Taiwan may be the best now. It was very near the top in the article I consulted recently. Those named at the top end, as I recall, were France, Austria, Italy, Spain, Japan, Saudi Arabia, and Taiwan.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:47 PM

You guys are not paying attention. Everything in this country is either the best or the greatest.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

right. Just ask the new Speaker of the House. He used the phrase "best healthcare system in the world" during his address this morning. So, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

Sure it is, best for the fat cats.

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in this country, 1% is NOT a mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:12 PM

Little Hawk, Yo-ho..I read your post in another thread, and you said you still wrote protest songs....Shit, I should pay you a visit...we'd kick ass!

Hey fellas, remember when Dylan wrote, Now read it carefully....

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who that it's namin'
For the loser now will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside and it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'
-Dylan



I guess none of you got it!!
Oh..I forgot, YOU ARE 'Mr. Jones'

"Something is happening
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?"
-Dylan


And you thought he was talking about someone else???


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

Another "Contract ON America?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

Sawz:

If you are interested in discussing issues, stick to them instead of the sarcastic chartacterizations, and I'll do likewise. 'Kay? I think th eissues are important, and I do not enjoy slanging matches, even though I get drawn into them too easily.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:53 PM

Right on, GfS. You'd love some of my protest songs, and I'd sure like to hear yours. The trouble is, I can't figure out how to get in touch with you, because you are a danged "Guest" and I can't PM you.

How do we get around that?

Dylan was right on the mark with that song, and he still is today.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

So it should have been "The times are always changing?" LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM

Yeah, probably should have...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:11 PM

Well, Kendall, in the UK we currently have first past the post for electing members of Parliament, so a <1% majority will do to elect each member, even if short of a 50% total. Likewise for votes in Parliament - 1 vote will swing it. But the tricky bit is that we are currently governed by a coalition because no party had 51% of the seats in the House of Commons. And the coalition government's programme doesn't necessarily reflect the views of party members of either party. So there are arguments about whether the Government has a mandate for the measures they are implementing.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM

Little Hawk, Oh I think it could happen...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:20 PM

Amos, when we were discussing Obama's run for the presidency, I suggested that he was a creature of the system.

You denied that and said that he represented change and a new kind of politics.

Now you proclaim that Obama "saved capitalism" and in doing so lost the election.

Who was right and who was wrong?

The only change worth having, is the destruction of the system.