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Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Mrrzy Date: 24 May 17 - 09:44 AM The bomber was British. And "It is unlikely that somebody who commits suicide while mass-murdering teenage girls has any sort of ideology as their primary motivation" is nonsense, raving nutters aren't organized. Of course it's political. Not crazy - uncivilized. You do a disservice to the mentally ill by lumping them in with terrorists. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 24 May 17 - 10:30 AM "By the same token, because a terrorist happens to be a Muslim, it doesn't make all Muslims terrorists" Nobody is saying anything remotely like that. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 17 - 10:59 AM To throw a new aspect into this conversation, I heard on the radio this morning that the dysfunctional Trump administration struck a blow to the investigation. It was someone here who released the name of the bomber before the UK investigators were ready (alerting confederates to go into hiding, etc.) https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/trump-administration-manchester-bomber-name-leak Salman Abedi was identified in media reports that attributed "US officials" as the source even as their British counterparts remained tight-lipped. Just because those idiots in the White House have a whole bunch of fancy resources doesn't mean they get to release news at-will. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: akenaton Date: 24 May 17 - 11:12 AM My point is that we have made the situation a hundred times worse by our interventions in the Middle East and North Africa. The "Arab Spring" was an absolute joke, only a half wit would believe that the Jihadists of Libya and Iraq were going to change into good little democrats overnight. The removal of dictators with no realistic provision to fill the void is a kind of madness, ideological claptrap which we hear from the "liberal" left on every issue. We are not all the same, these people are bloodthirsty lunatics, they don't want democracy, they don't want Christians worshiping Christ on their patch or any fucking patch......they want to dominate and use terror to achieve it. Don't think it wont happen, come the first chemical or biological attack, even the poxy "liberals" will be forced to bite the bullet. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Greg F. Date: 24 May 17 - 11:13 AM It gets worse, Acme. Way to go, Trump! US officials leak more Manchester details hours after UK rebuke Steady drip of details, which prompted censure from Amber Rudd, is hampering investigation into deadly attack. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/us-officials-leak-more-manchester-details-hours-after-uk-rebuke |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 May 17 - 11:26 AM "Nobody is saying anything remotely like that." That has been the thrust of all the arguments from day one One of the reasons given for immigration control has always been the "danger of extremists establishing themselves within the Asian communities" Those who went to assist te=he Syrian people against the State terrorist activities of Assad were immediate branded terrorists ""liberals" will be forced to bite the bullet." Can you please keep your vicious Trumpist/Coullterist insults out of this discussion Tis is not about The Arab Spring, nor is it about "liberals" - it is about the slaughter of young people by a faatic Where the **** are the forum fairies when they are needed? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 17 - 11:46 AM You're wrong, Akenaton. Totally. But no one is going to convince you of that, unless you start reading a better class of newspaper and watching more comprehensive news channels. And if you can't figure out how to make immigrant communities in the UK feel welcome, able to contribute, able to practice their preferred religions in a way that dovetails with the dominant UK religion, you'll continue to let a few angry HOME GROWN terrorists fester. If you treat immigrants as threats instead of welcome neighbors, then YOU are part of the problem. The US also has the problem of inclusion to varying degrees in different parts of the country, though right now Trump is managing to scare people everywhere and making it much worse. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: akenaton Date: 24 May 17 - 12:13 PM Home Grown? why do you think the family had to leave Libya? The guy is a child murdering jihadist......No Quarter from me and MY kind. I promise you Acme, YOU are wrong, CLINTON was wrong and you will come and admit it......though I pray you wont need to. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 24 May 17 - 12:17 PM Having read down through the thread - nobody is blaming all Muslims. Those who have used the M-word? theleveller Senoufou Dave Hanson Backwoodsman Jim Carroll "It hasn't taken long for the extreme extremist on the forum to turn the discussion from a horrific crime into an attack on the Arab/Muslim people as a whole" - Jim Carroll - Total misrepresentation that could be construed by some as a downright lie. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 May 17 - 01:05 PM "Those who have used the M-word?" Ake is the only one who has attempted to place blame and his past record speaks for itself Bonzo was the first to place the blame - three postings in. Pretty sute he wan't referring to the Seventh Day Adventists (with his record) And Ake continues his attack this time including Clinton Must have got dispensation from the forum fairies Why do these people have to use the hardly-cold bodies of children as a soapbox fro their own fanaticism? "Those who have used the M-word?" You mean Ake wasn't referring to Muslims!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 May 17 - 01:08 PM I do promise this is my last post on this thread unless it improves. Please, please , please can we stop using this tragedy to score points. It is unbecoming of ALL concerned. I don't expect the mods to delete anything although I would welcome it, so can we be respectful and self policing? Thanks DtG |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 24 May 17 - 01:37 PM The Prime Ministeress said this, and how true: "All acts of terrorism are cowardly attacks on innocent people, but this attack stands out for its appalling, sickening cowardice - deliberately targeting innocent, defenceless children and young people who should have been enjoying one of the most memorable nights of their lives...We struggle to comprehend the warped and twisted mind that sees a room packed with young children not as a scene to cherish, but as an opportunity for carnage" |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 24 May 17 - 03:16 PM Thanks for posting that Bonzo - I could not agree more with what Theresa May said. 1: "Ake is the only one who has attempted to place blame" If he did then he did not do so by blaming all Muslims Jom - If so then quote the post where he states that all Muslims are to blame. If you cannot do that then please STFU about it. 2: "Bonzo was the first to place the blame - three postings in." Nope he sarcastically made an oblique reference to who he thought might be responsible without actually naming them - needless to say Bonzo's thoughts have been proved correct which should be vindication enough. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 24 May 17 - 03:19 PM Sorry forgot to add: At no time at all has Bonzo inferred or implied that all Muslims are to blame. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 17 - 07:36 PM I also agree with what Mrs May said there. But there is something unsettling about the fact that the same lady who said that, only a few months ago told the House of Commons specifically that she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, which would of course include enormous numbers of children. Perhaps this horrible atrocity in Manchester might make more of us realise what is involved in doing something like that, though on a vastly greater scale. ........ One striking and puzzling thing in this suicide bombing, which echoes what has happened in previous cases, is that the bomber made it so much easier for the police to have a start in finding possible confederates, by carrying identification. It is possible to imagine that a solitary killer might actually wish to be identified, as a way of making a statement of some kind, but for one acting under the direction of others, which it seems pretty evident is the case here, it is self-defeating. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Greg F. Date: 24 May 17 - 07:59 PM she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, Yeah, Kevin, but the dead would all be Muslim unternenschen so what's the problem? |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 May 17 - 08:03 PM On tonight's news I heard two head teachers telling us about the lovely children who had been lost from their schools. Both were reading from notes. That made it so impersonal, as if they hadn't really known the kids at all and were relying on what someone else had told them. I found that to be thoroughly tasteless and rotten. I thought the BBC report tonight which focused on the individual young people who were lost and the effects that those losses had inflicted on their families and friends was sensitive and lovely. I was talking to Mrs Steve about how these senseless losses are such routine events in Kabul and Baghdad, among others, lest we forget. To retain our sanity we really must focus on the smaller things in conflicts and that focus is, sadly, made easier when bad things happen close to home, to the same kind people as we are. I can't get my head round hundreds of thousands of far-distant people killed by nukes in Japan. But I can sharply and poignantly focus on the death of one eight-year-old little girl coming out of a pop concert in Manchester, six miles from where my mum and dad still live. War-mongers and terrorists rely on numbing our senses. The way to beat them is to to steadfastly maintain our humanity, look at what has happened on the scale that we do intimately understand and try to force the war-mongers and terrorists into thinking the same way. Each one of them has a mother. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 25 May 17 - 01:03 AM "But there is something unsettling about the fact that the same lady who said that, only a few months ago told the House of Commons specifically that she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, which would of course include enormous numbers of children." - MGOH Why unsettling Kevin? The USA, UK, Russia, China, France, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea all have nuclear weapons they claim as being defensive deterrents. There would of course be no point in any country having such a deterrent if the leadership of any of those country's stated that he or she would never use them. The deterrent effect of holding such weapons comes with fostering the undoubted belief in the minds, rational and thinking of any potential enemy that those weapons would be used. In the case of the UK, our deterrent, on purpose is a second strike weapon. It has to be, to be effective, we live on a small island so land based "nukes" would be too vulnerable. But seeing as you are unsettled Kev, be even more so now, because if you take at face value what Theresa May said, then realise this. The order to fire those missiles has already been given in the form of a sealed letter that is written by every single UK Prime Minister on taking office that outlines the circumstances under which the Commanding Officer of our SSBNs is authorised to launch his missiles, also hope and pray Kevin that BBC Radio 4 never goes "off air" for 24 hours by accident, because that is one of the "triggers" that would cause the Prime Minister's letter to be opened. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: akenaton Date: 25 May 17 - 02:46 AM Radio 4 off air for 24hrs?.......So its not ALL bad news then Mr T? |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Teribus Date: 25 May 17 - 03:07 AM Nice one Ake - like it. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Johnny J Date: 25 May 17 - 03:08 AM "BBC Radio 4 never goes "off air" for 24 hours by accident" Highly unlikely as I'm sure it could continue in one form or other even under the most exceptional circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Johnny J Date: 25 May 17 - 03:18 AM I'm a bit "late to the party here"... , arguably an unfortunate choice of words, but I was struck my some comments previously made in this thread which seemed to suggest or argue that we and the media have been making disproportionate fuss over this incident because far more people are regularly killed or injured in other(particularly Muslim) countries in comparison to Manchester and other UK or other "Western" countries. While this is true, I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves for wanting to mourn "our own". This is surely a natural reaction. After all, we are generally far more affected by the loss of a loved one or friend than that of a stranger but that doesn't mean that we necessarily think of the stranger as a lesser person in any way. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Senoufou Date: 25 May 17 - 03:37 AM 'The way to beat them is to steadfastly maintain our humanity.." Lovely post Steve. Agree with every word. So much so, I'm even prepared to overlook the split infinitive. :) |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 May 17 - 03:53 AM "Why unsettling Kevin? The USA, UK, Russia, China, France, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea all have nuclear weapons they claim as being defensive deterrents. There would of course be no point in any country having such a deterrent if the leadership of any of those country's stated that he or she would never use them. The deterrent effect of holding such weapons comes with fostering the undoubted belief in the minds, rational and thinking of any potential enemy that those weapons would be used." Which totally negates any opposition to Iran, North Korea or any other state having these filthy killing machines - why should they be left defenceless to potential em]emis of their systems. The only country that has ever approached actually using them on a nation is th United States - also the major culprit in interfering in the policies of other states by sending in invading armies - 15 years-worth of dropping bombs, carcinogenic chemicals and burning petrol on the people of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia Isn't it long overdue that these filthy weapons were recognised for what they truly are - a threat to all mankind. I used to believe that no sane nature would ever use them - buut now we have Trump and Isis - two sides of the same coin Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Stu Date: 25 May 17 - 07:14 AM For fuck's sake, what is happening in the US with this leaking of information and data about the Manchester bomb? Not only was this against the wishes of the UK police and might have compromised the investigation, but showing images of bloodstained floors, detonators etc is so appallingly disrespectful to the families of those who died, that were mainly children. Is this how low the US security services have sunk under Trump. They've become untrustworthy and it's baffling as to why this would happen. Seems they don't give a shit about the UK for sure. The UK has had to STOP sharing intelligence on this matter because they can't be trusted. Amazing. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: akenaton Date: 25 May 17 - 07:29 AM How can this debacle possibly be Donal-John's fault? Why on earth would he pass it to the NYT which he quite rightly treats with derision? This is just another tactic in the disgraceful campaign to remove a democratically elected President by a whining pile of ideologically obsessed sore losers. Not even the British would behave as childishly. You do not yet seem to realise that electoral politics is a game and the winner must be a pragmatist......the art of the possible. Subverting the democratic process because your feelings are hurt is the road to Hell. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 May 17 - 07:42 AM "...I was struck my some comments previously made in this thread which seemed to suggest or argue that we and the media have been making disproportionate fuss over this incident because far more people are regularly killed or injured in other(particularly Muslim) countries in comparison..." That isn't the sentiment I was wanting to express in my post. The opposite, in fact. Focusing on incidents close to home on human-scale intimate details is the best way for us to understand what happens in far-distant countries to people who are just like us, once we realise that they're just like us. It would also help us to increase our desire to try to prevent these things happening. A good start would be to end the brainless demonisation of Islam/Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs that's been going on for decades, usually by seriously misguided people in western countries who mistakenly think they own the moral high ground. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 17 - 08:08 AM So the sugestionis is that Theresa May was lying when she said that she would be willing to kill hundreds of thousands in a nuclear strike? Well, it could be true. It's all bluff, based on the hope that opponents believe our leaders are maniacs. If a nuclear deterrent fails to deter an attack, there is no conceivable benefit in actually using the weapons. To actually launch the weapons would be completely without any value. It would also of course be an inconceivably evil thing to do, but perhaps that is not something that influences most people in positions of power. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 May 17 - 08:51 AM Theresa May was responsible for the Manchester bombing - must be true - Ukip has just said so. Is there an election in the offing in the UK, I wonder!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Greg F. Date: 25 May 17 - 09:32 AM For fuck's sake, what is happening in the US with this leaking of information and data about the Manchester bomb? That's what incompetent, ignorant slobs like Trump and his people do. Be sure to send him a card of thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Senoufou Date: 25 May 17 - 09:49 AM From what I've seen and read today, there were many reasons to have had this family under surveillance. They all appear to have been involved in terrorist activities and 'training' for some time. Their friends and contacts were nearly all radicalised Muslims. Even ex-schoolmates and neighbours had their suspicions, and the Police had received information about them, yet nothing constructive was done. It's unpleasant to be paranoid and report people one has doubts about, but in the present climate, it's essential. How bitter the bereaved families must feel, knowing the bomber and his clan had been noticed quite a long time ago, and that this atrocity might have been prevented... |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Donuel Date: 25 May 17 - 12:26 PM The use of nuclear weapons is an admission that we give up, we surrender, we no longer respect life liberty justice or any such nonsense that interferes in our own personal capital formation. alt. thinking; Death is the deserved ultimate subjugation in a world economy where Muslims do not matter, er um , except for possibly radioactive oil. We should aim our nukes at population centers and away from oil fields. "You know what? I am going to call them losers. Loosers! I am not going to call them monsters, they would like that, I'm going to keep that word for us". |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Johnny J Date: 26 May 17 - 03:23 AM Steve Shaw said "That isn't the sentiment I was wanting to express in my post." Sorry, Steve. I wasn't actually referring to your post which I've now just read. I'm not disagreeing with what you have written and you have made a good point. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 May 17 - 04:36 AM UK has now resumed sharing of information with US. The killer had been reported for his beliefs and statements, but so have thousands of others. They can not all be kept under surveillance. Even returned Jihadis from Syria are not. There are hundreds of them. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 May 17 - 04:39 AM Feed them to the foxes!! |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: theleveller Date: 26 May 17 - 04:40 AM If May thinks that putting troops on the streets is reassuring, she's wrong. I find having soldiers on the streets doing the job of the police very worrying. Police firearms officers have different training to the army so a situation could arise that soldiers aren't competent to assess and that could result in innocent people being killed. This is the direct result of the Tories' police funding cuts - something they were warned about but chose to ignore. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Iains Date: 26 May 17 - 04:57 AM This thread is about a suicide bomber killing innocent children and adults. This is really no place for displaying political ideology or scoring cheap points. For some it would seem that to make a statement is more important than showing humanity and compassion. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 May 17 - 07:41 AM I agree with theleveller. Armed troops have no place on our streets. More and more as time has gone on we've come to accept a limited presence of armed police officers on our streets, secure in the knowledge that they are not just trained marksmen but are also trained defenders of public order. The fact that even such highly-trained police officers can occasionally make tragic mistakes should be a warning to us that armed troops with far less of the right kind of training are simply unacceptable. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 May 17 - 08:37 AM Same thing in New York City - seeing armed soldiers in subway stations is disconcerting. It's one thing to take veterans after they leave the military and train them to be police - I've read a number of accounts that you then have the best of both worlds as far as assessment and reactions, but military untrained to police domestic civilians - no. It's troubling. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Paul Reade Date: 26 May 17 - 09:06 AM It's worth reading Simon Jenkins' piece in yesterday's Guardian "... the idea that tanks, troops and helicopters can deter a suicide bomber in a crowded space is ridiculous. The only people it deters are foreign tourists." |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: theleveller Date: 26 May 17 - 10:08 AM "It's one thing to take veterans after they leave the military and train them to be police" In the UK it's unusual for ex-military to be selected as firearms officers because they have been trained to have a different mindset and priorities. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Vashta Nerada Date: 26 May 17 - 12:07 PM Police Officer Says He Was Fired for Not Shooting. Now He's Suing is a story that explains what might go through the heads of officers without combat experience, and more. Interesting read. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: theleveller Date: 26 May 17 - 12:20 PM Vashta, thankfully things are very different in the UK.The police now use tasers more and more, which isn't a weapon the military are trained in. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Greg F. Date: 26 May 17 - 12:55 PM Britain could profit from the U.S.'s universally negative results of the increasing militarization of the police force here over the last decade. Very bad news. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Senoufou Date: 26 May 17 - 01:01 PM Here in UK, if an officer uses a taser on an individual, he has to fill in a form afterwards in which all the details of the incident are recorded. (A CED Evaluation Form) It's all monitored, to prevent the Police firing tasers all over the place. They aren't used lightly. I don't really see how any number of armed Police/military can do much against a lone suicide bomber walking along a street or entering a building, looking perfectly normal. Unless one has Intelligence tracking him/her, one wouldn't know the individual was wired-up until the terrible moment when it was detonated, in which event it would be too late. I read this morning that many concerts due to take place this summer are stipulating no bags except very tiny handbags will be allowed. And to expect huge delays and queues checking into the venues. Unless they frisk everyone thoroughly though, I can't see how it would completely ensure safety. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 May 17 - 05:51 AM It would really hit the fan if a young squaddie shot someone. Not likely though because they are not patrolling the streets as in France. Leveller and Steve got that wrong. They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions. It is those released armed officers out patrolling, not troops. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Stu Date: 27 May 17 - 07:21 AM "They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions." Yep, what happens when a government cuts police numbers by 20,000. The tories have really fucked this up; it's not their fault of course but the country is more vulnerable because of their idiot austerity. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 May 17 - 09:02 AM bollocks! everything is their fault....its been downhill ever since the execution of Anne Boleyn...bloody tories! |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 May 17 - 11:28 AM It's pretty obvious that neither armed police nor armed troops are any protection against a suicide bomber ready to blow himself up in a crowd. But there are some terrorist activities where they could be relevant - someone with a knife, like the one at Westminster a few weeks ago, or a gun attack, like the one in Mumbai, or on the Tunisia beach. But the main purpose is more one of PR - Public Reassurance combined with Public Relations. |
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017 From: theleveller Date: 27 May 17 - 11:32 AM "They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions. It is those released armed officers out patrolling, not troops." I'm not sure that's the case across the country. I'll ask my son - both he and his partner are police firearms training officers and are sometimes called on to be part of the armed response unit. Even so, I think you're nit-picking. |
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