Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:46 AM

Oh Leveller, do you not realise that if KOAH (also known as the professor) says it is the case it remains so, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 17 - 07:40 PM

Well you can hide a knife down your pants until the very last minute. You can walk into a crowded airport carrying several gallons of petrol. Armed troops are useless against threats of that kind. I find the presence of police officers on the streets very comforting. And a good deal of great work is being done in unravelling the network that may have been behind this week's tragedy. Who knows. Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:28 AM

'Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go.'

i know what you mean but you inevitably keep thinking....Birmingham Six, Guildford Four....and its not football results!

lets hope we've improved our detection techniques in the intervening years.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:42 AM

"Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go"
No really Steve
The "way to go" is to find the causes of it and work out if, as a nation, our own behavior hasn't been and still is a part of it.
Isis is a monster of our own creation, we created the vacuum that nurtured it and the hatred of all the faithful of the religion it claims to be acting on behalf of continues to feed it and create bigger and more widespread vacuums.
Al is right about the Birmingham Six - what a coup for the extremists it would have been if the authorities had strung them up!
Fanatics like Isis thrive on martyrdom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM

"Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go"
No really Steve
The "way to go" is to find the causes of it and work out if, as a nation, our own behavior hasn't been and still is a part of it.

It isn't either/or, and I doubt if many people think it is. The bit about whether our behaviour is part of it is difficult, though. *I* believe it is, certainly, but there are those who feel even considering that for a moment is a sign of weakness. That's bad when it is 'our side' saying it makes us look weak, but it is worse when 'their side' sees us as looking weakened. On the other hand the bravado-stance that it is nothing to with us is either deluded or unthinking. I don't envy anyone deciding what the 'public face' of this needs to be.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM

But surely if perpetrators are captured, they must be punished? (And I don't mean the Death Penalty) What's the alternative? Sitting them down over a nice up of tea and having a little chat about why they're so cross with us?

On a wider front, the whole situation does need looking at in depth. Alienated groups can become dangerous (as seen) and it is a good idea to unpick the chain of events which led to this. But from what I've read about IS, they aren't in any way prepared to consider reconciliation or talks. And individuals who plot atrocities, and those with bomb-factories in their houses MUST be brought to justice and punished.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:41 AM

I do not accept that our foreign policy is a factor.
They just hate us for our values.
What did Belgium ever do abroad to make them a target?
Sweden, Norway, Kenya and Nigeria have all suffered attacks.

This comes from the rise of radical Islam, not us.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 05:18 AM

"They just hate us for our values."
And that is the stupidly blinkered view that will continue to fill body bags.
The history of our attitude to the poorer nation of the world is one of exploitation and predatory greed - and one of hating people for their values and attempting to "civilise" them - the end of the Empires have not changed that one iota
Dealing with Isis is short termism - in needs to be tackled but so does our own exploitive and racist policies
We all have to take responsibility for what is happening otherwise it will continue to happen.
"What did Belgium ever do abroad to make them a target?"
The world we have helped create has been divided into "them and us" sections - the Arab Spring might have helped narrow the gap but it was "us" who dropped that ball and continued to be part of the exploitation of "them"
"But surely if perpetrators are captured, they must be punished? "
Of course they must Sen, that's a domestic duty for all countries to tackle, but that punishment or blame must never be extended to all Muslims as it is being at present.
I agree with DMcG to a point but "weakness" smacks a little too much of the Thatcherist cure-all.
We have to sort out the legacies of our own history before we will put things right
I go along totally with Corbyn on this one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:46 AM

blame must never be extended to all Muslims as it is being at present.

It is not. Making up "facts" is not helpful.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:47 AM

wouldn't be too sure JIm, about them not hating us.
And I wouldn't be too sure Keith that its merely Islam.

i remember talking one day to Dutch guy who had been living in the south of Spain for years.

He said,' I suppose you realise they hate our guts. All us north Europeans. Not as much as the Americans, THey loathe the Americans, they think they're really decadent'
i said, i suppose that's the Moorish influence...
He said, Who the hell knows, but its definitely the Andalusian point of view....'

years later my Dad emigrated in his retirement to Spain, and i got to know the Costa Blanca part pretty well. To subsidise my infrequent visits I used to gig the bars in Calpe or on the strip in Benidorm. One bar owner told me the council have to have a secret squad of white washers out every morning in Benidorm to paint over some of the anti-English graffitti.

we are not universally loved - neither is our culture universally respected.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:08 AM

"It is not. Making up "facts" is not helpful."
Nether is avoiding facts
These crimes have been attributed by Muslims - they have been given (by you and others) as a reason for limiting immigrants and not accepting refugees
They have been trumpeted from the soapboxes by Ukip while you have stood in the sidelines claiming they are not racist
I've no intention of getting involved in one of your mindless black holes Keith
One of the greatest examples of the West's double standards towards nations the give succour to extremism for the purposes of self interest came with his clowningly hypocritical performance in Saudi Arabia
One of the soapboxes of his election campaign was an attack on Muslims and his promise to ban them from entry into The United States
He is now arse-licking the Saudi regime in the same way Cameron dis while the despots were beating the shit out of a journalist.   
When the Arab people were demanding better conditions and more freedom Britain's contribution was to open an arms fair to sell the leaders of the despotic nations more weapons and equipment to keep them under subjugation - Assad was a beneficiary of the sales of riot control equipment such as armoured cars and tear gas.
Is it really any wonder that fanatics gaing a toe-hold thanks to these policies?
If we are going to stop fanaticism, we have to rob it of its lifeblood by winning the hearts of ordinary Muslim people - not by lumping them in with the nutters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:51 AM

they have been given (by you and others) as a reason for limiting immigrants and not accepting refugees

More made up stuff Jim.
Not helpful.

- not by lumping them (ordinary Muslim people) in with the nutters.

No-one is doing that. Why claim it?

What has Belgium, Denmark or Sweden done to deserve attack apart from embracing democracy, freedom and tolerance?

That is what they are attacking.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:57 AM

Those suffering from white guilt who see the west as the cause of all the world's ills would do well in this case to examine the history of the Muslim Brotherhood which begins in 1928. ISIS, Taliban, al-Qaeda, al-Shabaab, Hizb ut-Tahrir and the dozens other terrorist groups are all current proponents of the Brotherhood's stated goal which is: to instill the Quran and the Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state". Its mottos include "Believers are but Brothers", "Islam is the Solution", and "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish" - Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:26 AM

More denials from two of our leading Ismophobes
Now there's a surprise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:35 AM

I fear no Ismos, Jew hater.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:57 AM

" Jew hater."
Point made perfectly, I think
Is there an adujudicator in the house?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:01 AM

Lol!

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:16 AM

A last word to these two individuals before this ahrangue ruins the thread
I have no problem with abybody, myself included, being called a "Jew Hater" if there is evidence to back that up - the same goes for Islamophobe, racist.... or whatever.
If Bobad would like to provide evidence of his accusation, not only will I not only fuulfil my promise of a generous donation to the charity of his choice, but will apologise and resign from this forum
I am more than happy to provide evidence of my accusation - I have in the past and will do again if =necessary
I suggest Bobad should either apologise and withdraw his accusation or resign from this forum
Can'r say fairer than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:32 AM

bobad, that's disgraceful. Calling someone a Jew hater on Mudcat is totally unacceptable. And what was the 'LOL' in your next post? It isn't funny at all.
You're dragging this interesting discussion down to the level of a pub brawl.
Stop it please.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:41 AM

I was just responding in kind to Carroll's slur against me, do you think it's alright for him to call me an Ismophobe [sic]?

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:52 AM

I am more than happy to provide evidence of my accusation

Please do.

As for providing evidence for my accusation, that has been done on many occasions but your slippery substitution of your own self exonerating definition of anti-Semitism for the widely accepted definition renders your protestations laughable.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:00 AM

well this 'muslim brotherhood' do seem to have rattled your cage Bob?

is it just in wikipedia - cos its not a totally reliable source.
or do you know someone who goes round saying such things?
ask yourself - have i ever met anyone like that?
outside of a baddy in arnold schwarznegger movie - can you imagine anyone ever saying that?

if it sounds like bollocks - it possibly is.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:02 AM

Will you just fucking shut up?!

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:14 AM

Sorry Al but I don't get your point at all. I would suggest you do some research on the Brotherhood and their aims or maybe you don't believe in the separation of church and state.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:28 AM

Not aimed at Big Al.
Aimed at bobad the troll and Jim the troll-(wossword for somebody who enjoys being "done" by trolls continually?)

Since I'm not inclined to close crapulent threads or delete tons of messages (people need to be able to see who people area), I'll content myself with being an asshole, which I've been told I'm somewhat good at.

People's children were killed. People are suffering real pain. And all you lot can think about is "Oh look - another chance to fight about Muslims and go after this individual and make myself look smart." You don't look smart. You don't look kind. You look like stupid, heartless, selfish, website trashers.

Go here, flame warriors, you'll like the atmosphere.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:59 AM

"Please do."
have done a dozen times Bobad - most spectacularly in you quotes dredged from some of the most right wing of sites and going back to the as far as the 6th century claiming to prove the inbuilt extremist nature of the Muslim religion - Keith's "implant" theory are to well known to mention
"Will you just fucking shut up?!"
Very "moderate"
It is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics, that fanaticism is persistently fed by the disillusionment of generations of young people who have witnessed their parents being persecuted and humiliated by racism, hatred and mistrust based on the Islamophobia that is all to often displayed during these arguments
I should have the right to state than belief as often as I find necessary
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 11:21 AM

the inbuilt extremist nature of the Muslim religion

Most religions have inbuilt extremism to some degree. To be critical of any religion does not equate to hatred of those who believe in it. Religions are but a collection of ideas and as such are open to questioning, scrutiny and criticism, only a fanatic believer would deny that.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:08 PM

"Most religions have inbuilt extremism to some degree. "
Not pages and pages of it in relation to present events
To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic" (take your pick on the prefix)
That's what you did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:29 PM

To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic"

Well then that makes the perpetrators "selfphobes".

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:30 PM

No, it isn't either-or, as DMcG rightly said. The work of the police and intelligence agencies in cracking these terrorist rings is crucial and I believe that what we've seen them doing this week has been impressive, though we need to be a lot more pre-emptive. I'm never keen on the "we bring these things on ourselves" attitude. There is no mitigation possible for what happened in Manchester or for any other atrocity that hurts ordinary civilians going about their lives. But what's all this about "values," Keith? What values were we exhibiting when we napalmed Vietnam? When we ousted a democratic government in Chile in favour of a murderous dictator? When we funded the contras? When we do big business with a regime that represses women and beheads hundreds of people in public every year? When we propped up vicious military regimes in pre-Castro Cuba and in Portugal, Spain and Egypt? When we give a free pass to a country that steals land from a minority who get repressed and discriminated against into the bargain? When we invaded Iraq on a false pretext? Does all that represent your "values," Keith? It doesn't represent mine.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:37 PM

Jim Carroll: To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic" (take your pick on the prefix)

Jim Carroll: It is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:38 PM

"I'll content myself with being an asshole, which I've been told I'm somewhat good at."

Not by me you weren't. I tried to strike a deal with you: you don't call me paranoid and I don't call you an arsehole. I've yet to call you one, let alone tell you how good you are at being one. Happy to clear that up.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:23 PM

"t is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics"
"Fanatics" is the operative word there - that they claim to be acting in the name of Islam is immaterial - it could have been and in the past has been Christian of Jewish or Buddhist fanatics
Do not twist my meaning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:38 PM

with respect Bobad - i think you need to do less 'research' about the 'muslim brotherhood', and maybe think of all the shopkeepers, doctors, nurses, shop assistants, teachers, waiters in restaurants, policemen and god knows what else who serve you and are polite and friendly to you.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:26 PM

"and maybe think of all the shopkeepers, doctors, nurses,....."
Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:31 PM

Al, I think you are either misunderstanding or misinterpreting my post. I am arguing the point that attributes the rise of ISIS to the actions of the "west". I place the historic foundation of the ideology of the terrorist groups I listed and many more like them to that of Hassan al-Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928. Why you are trying to make a linkage with me and ordinary Muslims today has me completely baffled.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:10 PM

The foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the rise of al-Banna, were very much linked to western actions in the middle east, specifically British rule in Egypt. Not sure what point you are trying to make bobad.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:30 PM

"Fanatics" is the operative word there

As if I have ever said or implied otherwise.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:39 PM

with respect Bobad

Respect? Fer chrissakes WHY with this serial arsehole?

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 11:24 PM

The point is Bobad.
The history of 1928 is all very well in its way.
Indeed, I expect the political affiliation that Jim and I feel to the Labour Party and the left generally could probably be traced back to the general Strike in 1926, even further perhaps.
No doubt, when Harold got one in the eye at the Battle of Hastings - our ancestors were there in the throng, going 'fuck this for a game of soldiers'.

However these kids sticking bombs in their shoes, up their bums, running away to join Jihadi John, etc. have fuck all to do with 1928. They are products of our society. they are our fuck-ups. they are disaffected youths from Derby, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester.

We can't sort it out without closer links with the indigenous Muslim community. A meeting of minds. A collision course between the two cultures is neither desirable or inevitable...its just kids who don't fit in, and see something they think will confer significance on their lives, when society is telling them they have none.

1928 for Gawdsake....ask yourself. does your average young person know what happened yesterday on the News?   And that's what you're dealing with. Not 1928.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 01:56 AM

"They are products of our society.... We can't sort it out without closer links with the indigenous Muslim community. A meeting of minds. A collision course between the two cultures is neither desirable or inevitable...its just kids who don't fit in, and see something they think will confer significance on their lives, when society is telling them they have none."
The problem in a nutshell.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 17 - 03:43 AM

Steve,
But what's all this about "values," Keith?

Western liberal values are abhorred by these fanatics.
They do not believe in democracy or the tolerance of unbelievers, gay people and much else.
They would not allow concerts like the one attacked last week.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Thompson
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:31 AM

There are horrible fanatics in every society, ready to kill. And there are people who pick up on the militarised values of societies and become convinced that it's heroic to kill, and that it's the only way to free people from a dictatorship or an invasion.

A personal note: I was on a plane from Paris the day after Manchester, and my boarding gate was next to the gate for a plane to Saudi Arabia. The people taking that plane were the most pale, silent and subdued group I've ever seen board a plane. One girl in jilbab and hijab was white in the face and almost fainted on her way out the boarding gate. A plump, middle-aged woman in a flowered scarf who reminded me of everyone's gran in 1950s Ireland sat hunched with her head bowed.

Manchester was an atrocity. Someone so full of hate that his favoured target is a concert for thousands of little girls has lost all reason. But not all Muslims are bombers.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:58 AM

Steve,
I gave you a litany of western foreign policy interventions in which those western liberal values of yours were presumably at play, Keith. Can't say I'm surprised you ignored them.

You did Steve. Do you think Vietnam formed any part of the motivation of the killers? We did not even participate in it!

Or Chile? Or any of those other places on your list?
I do not, and the fanatics do not claim them as grievances either.

The fanatics say they hate us for our tolerance of things they hate and our belief in democracy.
Not Vietnam!

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 05:56 AM

Your western liberal values were at play in all those situations. I want to know what values they hate us for. I want to know if they hate us for the values we exhibited in the situations I mentioned. I don't see anything particularly "liberal" in the values that support Israel's regime in its repression of Gaza, in backing terrorists in Nicaragua, in the ousting of democratic governments in favour of dictators, in setting fire to children in villages and in the propping up of vicious despots. And I am not saying that there is a provable connection between foreign policy and terrorism. But I am saying, without justifying it in the slightest way, that foreign policy may engender bitter feelings and that fanatics will use those feelings as an excuse to justify attacks on western countries. By the way, I don't think it's a tit-for-tat. Belgium may not have been upfront in the aggression shown by the west, but that is not the point. The terrorists' apparently random attacks are intended to provoke fear and insecurity in the west in general. They are not pinpoint revenge attacks.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:19 AM

"Does anyone?
ou've been given the first essential step Keith - winning hearts and minds" ( a far cry from descibing them as a community of potential perverts who have to resist their cultural implant to stop them from raping children
Such attitudes set the fuses to these suicide bombs
THe values you trumpet so persistently about are really not much to write home about
A survey suggested that a third of the British population hold and have expressed racist views - not many hearts and minds in hat one
Britain may not have been part of teh Vietnam atrocities but our leaders sat like nodding dogs and watched for fourteen years while the Yanks poured burning petrol on Vietnamese peasants
Not a "value" I'd be happy to sweater on my Tee-shirt
Our glorious leader, speaking on our behalf presumably, accused those trying to brin mass-murderer to trial for his slaughter of young people as "running a police state" and announced that he was her kind of democrat
Very praiseworthy
Nobody is suggesting this massacre wasn't ideologically driven nd it's not helpful to suggest somebody is - it is the ideology of fanatics - every religion has them to one degree or another.
Stop twisting peoples' words
Iead this morning that an Anerican Christian went berserk of a train, cut the throats of two passengers and stabbed another
Elswehere, a Christian shot six people and said he hoped God would take him
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:51 AM

you've forgotten Keith - thing were just as unstable in the past.

in the '60's the sea green incorruptibles were waving red books and shouting, 'hey! hey! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?' we scared the shit out of our parents.

luckilly we didn't have access to weapons. in germany they had baader meinhoff, in America they had the weathermen, the simbianese liberation army. Stokely Carmichael, George Jackson, Angela Davis, Soledad Brother.....

in the 70's the IRA looked just as intractable> And the threat is still there...

in a way you can't have honest equal negotiation with people who are prepared to go that far.

but in the end, its the Mo Mowlams and John Majors and Bill Clintons- the ones who are willing to try for that who get stuff sorted out and civilisation back on track. ...not the Thatcher No Surrender merchants.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:14 AM

I think it's a complex problem that needs a complex solution.

Government Intelligence should be increased so that more plots could be unearthed before disasters happen.

Known terrorist plotters and offenders in our country should be arrested and imprisoned.

Radicalised young people should be approached with an intent to listen and try to understand their mindset. Young men who feel isolated and unaccepted should be reassured and encouraged.

Politically we should keep our noses out of regimes and governments which are none of our business.

Individually we should try not to become racist or condemn whole sections of our population for the actions of a few. We should see all human beings as of value.

We should all try to hold on tightly to the spirit of tolerance, acceptance and fellow-feeling which has been a characteristic of many ordinary folk in our country. (As shown in Manchester by the mutual support and friendship of many religious groups and races)

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:40 AM

So... I had two friends with daughters there, one a close friend that I saw for the first time yesterday and got to discuss the events with him. The details are pretty awful and it was a frightening, confusing situation for the people involved and thankfully everyone was OK physically, although they saw things no child should ever see and it must have been terrible.

Some of the people on this thread should take a long, hard look at how they conduct themselves in discussions like this. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about in this case.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 17 - 11:25 AM

Agreed, Stu gets the last word. The thread has strayed way off topic.

I had a query about leaving this open - okay, but Jim and Keith, you have to take it outside somewhere else. You hijack threads with your same old nonsense.