BS: Ireland-What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

"Ireland's history has no direct bearing on the present state of affairs here - that's just Dickhead licking past wounds."

No, that was your previously expressed opinion, as quoted by me earlier.
I am very pleased to see that there is one thing you have now stopped blaming us for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 10:05 AM

Yes, but why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? England and Ireland are pretty good places to live. That's the one thing we've got going for us. People look round the world, and they say....looks good to me - compared to the other places. even 'the troubles' would have fit comfortably into the average noisy weekend in New York, or Chicago.

Theres more freedom than most places. the weather is sort of liveable with. The english language means we've got access to all sorts of cultural influences, and lots in common with places like America India and Australia.

Okay they got the sums wrong. But the basic fact remains - Ireland and England are shit hot places to live in and (supply and demand!) you couldn't go wrong building houses for the folks who want to live there. Yet they did. I think its a pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:39 PM

"why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? "
You want to be here in the winter when many of the the coastal towns resemble Wild-West ghost towns, when the few houses that have been sold as holiday homes stand empty - all that's missing is the tumbleweed in the street.
These ghost estates have destroyed whole communities, making the area too expensive for locals, and unable to sustain the all-the-year-round facilities - shops, cinemas, pubs, etc - much of what goes into the life of a community.
In this town, out of an estate of 30 odd new houses, only two have been sold, the rest stand empty.
In the next town up the coast, Lahinch, thanks to the recession, a planned complex of around a dozen houses were abandoned after having just been started - now they are a building site of concrete shells swimming in a sea of mud - an eysore and a hazard for local children.
How many reasons is that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:58 PM

Maybe there should be mention of the hundreds of ghost estates there as well Jim. Especially the ones that litter the Midlands, the former Dublin commuter belt. But they're everywhere. Empty, often unfinished and without a chance of ever being sold.


The ghost estates of Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:12 PM

The English invaded but I didn't think that was news.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:40 PM

The point is that they're still in a desirable place to live. So at some point, they're going to be a good deal. supply and demand and all that.

Every builder I've ever known has assured me the building trade is very iffy - its either feast or famine. (Perhaps not the happiest of metaphors!)

The thing is, don't be conned into thinking what you've got is worthless - its the oldest crookedest trick in the book. Every market trader has a gold badge in it. That's the bullshit that lost us the coal industry, its a piece of flim flam - don't fall for it.

Lots of people would like a house in Ireland. Lots of Irish people who've worked all their lives in England and America would like to retire to those houses. Rent them out to those people - get the money moving again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 02:04 PM

Well Alan, they're there and a lot of them for sale. Problem is, nobody wants them.


The few people who were so unlucky to buy a house in these estates are now stuck with them forever. Often as only occupant of an entire estate and with a negative equity of ten of thousands of Euro. It's pretty desperate.

They're not place people are going to retire to. Really.

There are loads of documentaries and news reports on the issue on YouTube.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

And anyone wishing to retire to Ireland would be well advised to look into the state of the health system. Which was already recognised by all as a disgrace during the boom years but with it's funding severely cut it is not likely to improve any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

"The point is that they're still in a desirable place to live"
Some places are desirable places to live - but the fact that the building boom was totally unplanned lead to mass indiscriminate building - the 'ghost estates' (little boxes) that Peter was referring to.
The examples I gave above were not a case of our being fooled - I drive past several of them daily.
The ghost town with the tumbleweed I described was once a pretty Victorian watering-spot; now, over half of the houses stand empty nine months of the year - no pub, one shop, and lots and lots of collapsed businesses.
Planned expansion can be an boon - unplanned can (and does) destroy existing communities.
The phenomenon of prioing locals out of areas is by no means confined to Ireland; we visited Norfolk regularly enough to see the devistating effect it had there.
And then there's the 'Greg Norman syndrome', where incomers build close to the beach and fence it off, preventing local access.
One TV presenter here who specialises in rural activities says he now goes round with a pair of pliers in his pocket to cut the barbed wire fences put up by holiday home owners to fence off sections of the beach.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:24 PM

And anyone wishing to retire to Ireland would be well advised to look into the state of the health system. Which was already recognised by all as a disgrace during the boom years but with it's funding severely cut it is not likely to improve any time soon.
no, not a disgrace [AS FAR AS MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE GOES], I managed to get a hernia operation done[at BANTRY HOSPITAL] within a week of diagnosis, total cost 130 euros.
OK its only one example, but I was extremely satisfied

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

The problems we're talking about don't have anything to do with the historical disaster of being colonised by an unfriendly neighbour.

If you're British, don't attack Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate. This rate, which compensates for the fact that Ireland is surrounded by sea dividing it from its two main markets, allows the country to be an attractive host to multinationals.

If the tax rate were axed, those multinationals would very probably leave; they'd quite possibly leave not just Ireland but Europe.

And the effect on Britain of the utter impoverishment of its largest customer would not be pretty.

If Ireland becomes poor, Britain loses its largest customer. Remember that above all. You may think you're cutting Ireland's throat, but the knife will travel on to stab your own heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 04:31 PM

Well that's convinced me. I won't be cutting Ireland's throat - like I was planning to.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:42 AM

THis arrived this morning.
http://fintanotoole.ie/petition/

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:44 AM

Here's a piece by economist David McWilliams on the likely effect on Ireland of the "bailout":

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/bailout-will-sink-ireland-before-we-can-even-swim-2442878.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:20 PM

This guy puts it concisely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY6kXhQDQo

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:34 PM

Alan Whittle: Yes, but why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? England and Ireland are pretty good places to live. That's the one thing we've got going for us. People look round the world, and they say....looks good to me - compared to the other places

But in the case of Ireland...to build 700,000 new houses in the last few years when the whole population's only 4.5 million smacks of lunacy. That's one new house for every 6 people...in a country where the vast majority of the population already had somewhere to live!Are tyou really going to get an influx of immigrants equal to 15% of your total population in the space of just a few years, to take up the over-supply?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:59 AM

Well, I've had a mate who built some great houses and Norman Lamonts green shoots of economic recovery finished off his company. Still twenty years later people are living in those nice houses. They're still nice places to live.

Its a tough thing being a builder when these financial experts are buggering up things on a regular basis. Its still a better contribution to build nice homes for people than talking bollocks in Parliament and pretending you have some grasp of economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:24 AM

Al, do you have the remotest idea of how many vacant new estates - not houses but whole new estates - there are here? And derelict sites of unfinished ones, where the half-constructed grey shells are rotting away in the weather and they're not even built yet? Most of this was based on speculation and greed, financed by credit & debt and not on the needs of the people. Many of whom now can't afford to buy anywhere because they're (a) out of work (b) taxed and levied to death (c) being choked by killer mortgages on properties no longer valued at what they paid for them (d) all of the above, further hiroshima'd by the budget we've just had, which pretty much axed all relief on house-buying. And NO home is "nice" when it is windowless and open to the weather on one side.

A house is only worth what the market will pay for it. We currently have a ferocious oversupply of housing per capita head of population - I can't remember what the surplus-to-requirement percentage was cited at, but it's phenomenal. Getting to the village we live in means driving miles down a narrowish, pretty-but-not-very-good road (making travelling to work difficult & expensive) and like everywhere else, we have not one but two abandoned "ghost" estates plus an additional terrace of gaping, frontless grey concrete shells behind Harris fencing, which are never going to be finished (they ran out of money) and have been sitting there for two years, slowly being destroyed by the damp and salty sea air. Who did they think they were going to sell these to?

The cost of commuting to a job - never mind the carbon footprint and the employment situation - alone would be crippling. And there's certainly no work here. Two of the village's three pubs have now shut, ditto a food shop. And what tourist wants to pay money to travel, only to look at ugly jagged concrete and For-Sale signs?

All these houses weren't build for people to live in - that's a by-product. They were built to make money. By borrowing. From funds that weren't there. Which. We. Are. Now. All. Paying. For. Even those hundreds of thousands of us who never got into debt, never lent money or speculated, worked hard and paid all their taxes & bills on time. But the people who are going to pay the worst are the kids, whose future has been sold out from under them.

Friend of mine has a son who's just done his Leaving Cert (equivalent of A-Levels/SAT's). I asked him what the boy wanted to do. He said that Plan A was to go into the Gardai (police force). But they're hugely oversubscribed with applicants already and not that easy to get into, I said, what's plan B?

Plan B is the boat to Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM

I'm with Bonnie 100% - that sums up exactly how it has been heer throughout the last ten years - the result - many 100s of 'ghost estates.
"Its a tough thing being a builder "
It's very difficult to 'pity the downtrodden builder' when wwe look out and see the (economic, social and aesthetic) devestation caused by unplanned building driven by greed.
Are you suggesting that there's nothing wrong with unplanned building?
You've had your examples - plenty more if you're prepared to take them on board.
The seaside town I mentioned earlier was expanded without the necessary alteration to the infrastructure - result - raw sewage pumped into the sea, polluting a bay that attracts many thousands of visitors each year.
We live a few miles from on of Europe's most ecologically sensitive areas, The Burren (look it up). The unplanned construction of 'trophy houses' (not many, admittedly; they wouldn't dare, but they would if they could get away with it) has resulted in ugly blots of one of the world's most important natural heritage sites.
As the result of 'pushing the envlope' (offering remuneration to the right people), the last ten + years has led to large scale building on the flood plain of the local river in our market town - result - regularly flooded shops and homes.
Four years ago we lost our view of Mount Callan - somebody put a trophy house slap in the way. "Regrettable" we though; "but people have to live somewhere"; except for the fact that the house has never been occupied.
Ireland is attractive, both to visit and to live in, for many reasons; its natural and vernacular beauty, its people, its heritage, its sense of community.... - all adversely effected by a building boom which played a major part in the current crash and which has left running sores of estates all over the country.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:00 AM

A few years ago, a farmer here told me he had just sold 24 acres of land "for houses to be built on it". I said nothing but he obviously saw the disapproving and disgusted look on my face, and continued that he hadn't wanted to. Why did he, then? Because of punitive taxation or some similar strongarm tactics levied by our dear government (while Bertie Ahern was still in power, yes, the same Bertie Ahern who was later ousted for corruption). It's not like the farmer was going to see any fat profits out of his land sale. He did it to avoid it costing him. I can't remember the details, though the farmer did explain them to me, but basically it was the offer he couldn't refuse.

Think about it: a government-sanctioned financial disincentive to hang onto your land. This was while the Tiger was still gobbling us alive... whooops... meant to type Roaring.

Read David McWilliams' book The Generation Game. Or anything else he's written recently. He's google-able in the news feeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:13 AM

Other problem: We badly need to export, and you can't export houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:35 AM

Jim forgot to mention that in County Clare 60% of ALL houses were built during the boom years (the last ten/twelve years in other words). Just to give an indication of the lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:49 PM

Obviously I've got it all wrong - sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:45 AM

"Obviously I've got it all wrong - sorry!"
Easily done unless you're on the spot to see the damage done Alan.
It is difficult to believe the stupidity and insensitivity (not to mention the naked greed) that has gone into creating the present situation.
Yesterday, on the heels of a swingeing budget mainly affecting the less well off of Ireland, them at Leinster House made public the obscene bonuses that will continue to be paid to top executives - you couldn't make it up if you tried!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

Somebody on the radio yesterday called the current situation in Ireland "Craggy Island", which backed up what John Gormley had previously said to the effect of being in the government was like being in an assylum! - so why the hell doesn't he get himself out if it instead of supporting such a corrupt regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:53 AM

Ireland got robbed by bankers ....just like in Iceland ....
and they are gonna let the people pay ...just like in Iceland
so if you have nothing to loose ..take up your gun and aim it to the bankers .....not the people who work as the cashier but those who run
the bank....Iceland did let the banks to fall ...thank god ...and now we are seeing what those robbers where doing ...they still are free to go
and most of them live in London ....in the country witch we are in debt with out of Icesave...so why don´t the british take them and lock them up.....noone would miss them ....not me anyway ...

Ireland ...let the banks fall take the people who did this and lock them up , if the PM won´t do it then do it your self .
things are not finished here in Iceland people are still very very
angry , they are not doing anything to get those crooks ....

Ireland and Iceland got hit by crooks of the banking system .
and more will follow .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM

nobody should be bailing out bond holders, these bond holders are extremely wealthy, one of them owns 40 per cent of a swissbank, other bond holders include goldman sachs and jp morgan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

Other problem: We badly need to export, and you can't export houses.
    so now ireland is exporting people, again, mean while the taoiseach Biffo[even after his pay cut gets 30 thousand euros more than DavidCameron]

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:58 AM

Skarpi, Iceland has an independent currency. Ireland doesn't. We can't re-value the Euro.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:00 AM

PS: Nice to see you again, Al (if you're the Al I'm thinking of), even though it's such a gloomy topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:11 PM

Yes Bonnie - its me. I used to keep looking in on mudcat just to see if any old mates were dead.(Monty Sunshine in The Times today...!)

I've stopped arguing with people about the nature of traditional music. I've accepted it, I'm eccentric. My views serve me well as as an artist, but they are unacceptable to most in the folk world.

I live in Dorset now, I've retired there.

I hope you got to see the phenomenal essay John McLaughlin put on my webpage about Kavanagh

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id29.html

I hope you yourself are keeping well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:41 AM

thanks Al, but have you seen the song the dawning of the day, i find it interesting to compare raglan road with the[ dawning of the day] a song that was already in existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:44 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss    Lyrics   

One morning early I walked forth
By the margin of Lough Leane
The sunshine dressed the trees in green
And summer bloomed again
I left the town and wandered on
Through fields all green and gay
And whom should I meet but a colleen sweet
At the dawning of the day.
No cap or cloak this maiden wore
Her neck and feet were bare
Down to the grass in ringlets fell
Her glossy golden hair
A milking pail was in her hand
She was lovely, young and gay
She wore the palm from Venus bright
By the dawning of the day.

On a mossy bank I sat me down
With the maiden by my side
With gentle words I courted her
And asked her to be my bride
She said, "Young man don't bring me blame"
And swiftly turned away
And the morning light was shining bright
At the dawning of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:46 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:53 AM

this is a good one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA38cd9LVww

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

yes Bonnie , I know we have .
but still some wants to join the EU :O( sorry to say .
kv Skarpi .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:04 AM

Just heard that Allied Irish Bank has cancelled plans to pay out 40 million euro in bonuses following a public outcry. The remarkable thing was they were even planning to carry on paying bonuses in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

It's not so much they made a choice to cancel, the government intends to pass legislation tomorrow that will stop the paying of bonuses as a condition of the state's bail-out of the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:07 AM

"Just heard that Allied Irish Bank has cancelled plans to pay out 40 million euro in bonuses following a public outcry."
Thanks to the government threat to withdraw the €billions of bailout money.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:37 AM

I think even the government realised that paying out bonuses was a step too far, even for the Irish banks.

I was reminded the other day of the 'Eire Nua' plan that Sinn Fein put forward in the 70s. Am I the only one who thinks this may be an idea whose time has come?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

Fintan O Toole in the irish Times : AIB executives tried to rush inflated bonuses through as bail out loomed

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: IanC
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM

"We artisans of the lower middle class who work with honest jimmies on the cash boxes of small shopkeepers, are being ruined by large concerns backed by the banks. What is a picklock to a bank share? What is the burgling of a bank to the founding of a bank? What is the murder of a man to the employment of a man?"

Mac The Knife from "The Threepenny Opera"

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM

what would Tom Barry have done, probably taken biffo hostage,or blown up the dail, what a travesty that Barry and others fought for freedom and it has come to this

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:51 PM

Wonder why the Irish government didn't do this 2 years ago, we might have avoided a lot of the grief we are now encountering! Also, why don't they claim back all the bonuses from the other banks we, the taxpayers, have had to bail out?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:28 AM

Probably cuz they're all mutually-back-scratching cronies who are in each other's pockets, and it's only the public embarrassment factor that's saving us now. Remember the Eleventh and Twelfth Commandments:

11. Thou shalt not be SEEN TO. . . [fill in the blank]

12. Do Unto the other guy - and do it first

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM

But, hey... there's a bright side: I heard that Apple was planning to bail us out. They're going to buy the place and re-name it

iLand

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

Ofcourse after the righteous indignation yesterday by some government ministers, especially the Minister of Finance, about it being morally wrong for some people to receive bonuses 'when the rest of the country is getting worse off', it now turns out performance bonuses are being paid out to civil servants, quite a few, but not all, in the Ministry of Finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:02 AM

Yep. And Allied Irish Bank are STILL taking legal steps to see if they can get their hands on "their" bonuses. As I write.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:08 AM

In fairness I think there's an element of righteous indignation an pure old begrudgery in the protests against any sort of bonus (I can imagine the people in MinFin doing overtime to keep the country afloat). Performance bonuses for bankers, covering the time their bank went insolvent, that's stretching it a bit, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:11 AM

.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1215/dail-business.html

I like the bit that says: The main opposition parties will not try to block the bank restructuring bill... even though [they have] reservations about the wide powers which it gives to the Finance Minister.