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BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 22 - 09:36 PM I doubt very much whether sliding into a wider war would do anything to reduce the number of Ukrainians killed. World Wars just don't work like that. In a world with nuclear weapons there is no prospect of victory for anyone in such a war. The only way the Putin regime will lose power is if his backers and supporters turn against him. Humiliation in Ukraine is the way that could come about, and more direct involvement of Nato serves to preserve him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Mar 22 - 10:50 PM I think it was former Labor Secretary Robert Reich who wrote today about Russia on the verge of defaulting on paying millions on loan interest. They can't get the dollars with which it must be paid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Senoufou Date: 15 Mar 22 - 07:43 AM I read this morning that the website for UK people wanting to offer some living space to Ukrainian refugees has crashed due to overload. This is very generous of all those who have offered. But the Visa-processing by the UK Border Agency is going to hold things up for ages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Mar 22 - 08:09 AM You can only register if you know the names of those you are offering space to. Bit of a waste of time really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: peteglasgow Date: 15 Mar 22 - 11:51 AM we should have an advantage as we have a daughter who works for a ukranian business in tallinn. we are hoping they can put us in touch with someone or two who needs help |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 16 Mar 22 - 06:51 PM Last week Fresh Air had Masha Gessen on for the full show. I'd been waiting to hear her take, because she's reported and written on the phenomenon of Putin and the Russian/ Ukraine war extensively. It was quite interesting, just not too cheerful. Last night (15MAR2022) the PBS show Frontline covered Putin's Road to War. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Apr 22 - 12:41 PM Putin makes an issue of Ukraine wanting to join NATO as a reason for his invasion; on the PBS Newshour last night they had an interesting story about how this action in Ukraine is liable to push Sweden and Finland to join NATO. Finland, Sweden move toward possible NATO membership amid Russian war in Ukraine. Finland is prepared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Apr 22 - 06:17 PM That's just a pretext. Ukraine knows, and the west knows, that there is no prospect of Ukraine joining NATO. His mission is to restore the Soviet Union. A big worry is NATO's Achilles heel, the Suwalki Gap between Poland and Lithuania. It's a short stretch of border, but if Russia can take control of it, it will give Putin two advantages: first, it will enable him to connect the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad to Russia, and it would cut off the small Balkan NATO states, starting with Lithuania (any bets on their being his next target?) What's not to like, Vlad? Of course, stepping on that border would breach the west's red line. But I think Putin thinks we're too weak to escalate, should he do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:19 AM Donald Trump would be happy to agree with you and wants America to be a great nuclear power again and use them. That blather is for his base and not his pal 'Vlad the Assailer'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: gillymor Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:53 AM Putin's getting his ass handed to him in the Ukraine, how's he going to expand elsewhere. He's calling up conscripts who have been out of the service for 10 years and putting 17-18 yr. old cadets into the field. He'll likely be moving into a personal survival mode soon, if he's not there already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 14 Apr 22 - 02:49 PM As of now the main news sources (BBC,PBS,CNN) are reporting that Russia is lining up resources for a major (re)incursion in the Donbass. This was a territorial ambition of Putin/ Russia since the seizure of Crimea, as it allows a land connection from Russia proper to its purloined territory. This is the location of the existing conflict between Russian backed 'separatists' and Ukrainian forces since the Russian takeover of Crimea in 2014. Meanwhile, the Russian cruiser Moskva has been badly damaged. The Russians reported a major fire and removal of its crew, which is about 500. There are various reports of its current status. Some reports are that it has sunk. Others that it is under tow to Sevastopol. The Ukrainians are claiming it was hit by their missiles. In any case it is at the least an embarrassment to Russia. With all the reports of war crimes, rocket attacks, columns of tanks and that this is the greatest land war in Europe since WW2, this is still a limited war. But it is right on the literal bleeding edge of becoming something even more horrendous and damning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:36 PM Since you wrote about the ship being damaged it has sunk. A major symbolic blow in a tragic war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 15 Apr 22 - 01:10 PM You sunk my battleship! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 17 Apr 22 - 02:28 PM Just read Masha Gessen's https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/18/the-holocaust-memorial-undone-by-a in The New Yorker. It has several items I want to remember word for word: "The problem with Putin's revisionist history is not just the centrality of the Soviet Union and Soviet military glory; it's that, like all Russian propaganda, it intentionally sows chaos. The effect is to produce a preferred historical narrative and a sense of nihilism - a consensus that good and evil are indistinguishable, that nothing is true and everything is possible." This is a technique that is not new, but is made much more prevalent via the internet. It goes beyond the old saw: "The first casualty in war is the truth." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Apr 22 - 02:45 PM Cormac McCarthy should write an account of the war in which Russia attacks Ukraine. ala Blood Meridian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 18 Apr 22 - 08:30 PM For an example of life in a post-Soviet neverland: Journey to Transnistria: Inside Russia's Disinformation Bubble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 19 Apr 22 - 03:30 AM Interview of Volodymyr Zelensky in The Atlantic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 19 Apr 22 - 10:11 AM Steve Shaw , how do you know what Putin thinks. how do you know that Putin wants to restore the soviet union, is this another of your fantasies .USGS estimates that Ukraine produced 525,000 tonnes of titanium mineral concentrates last year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:19 PM There's really no need for a gratuitous insult, Mr Miles. This from Fox News (yes, I do look around...): I've read most of everything he’s written," President Biden said of Russian President Vladimir Putin last month. "He has much larger ambitions in Ukraine. He wants to, in fact, reestablish the former Soviet Union. That’s what this is about." Many experts believe that Biden is right. In an often cited and perhaps highly revealing comment years ago, Putin said that he believed the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century. Good to know that Joe Biden shares at least one of my fantasies! Since 2008 Putin has annexed South Ossetia, taken Chechnya (whilst razing its capital, Grozny), annexed Crimea, attempted to occupy tracts of eastern Ukraine and is now trying to take the whole of Ukraine. You can bet your bottom dollar that his next target will be the extremely vulnerable Kuwalski gap, the short border between Poland and Lithuania. He needs to take that border in order to connect the strategic Russian enclave Kaliningrad with Russia - and to cut off Lithuania from other NATO countries. The Lithuanian people are living in mortal fear. I won't call you naive, Dick, but let's just say that Putin's aims have become more and more transparent, though you appear not to have noticed... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:46 PM Let's stop with the insults and unsolicited insults. Dick's post was *that close* to being deleted except I was waiting to see if the claim about mining titanium had anything to do with all of this. Don't feed the trolls. From an AP update comes this tidbit: KVIV, Ukraine — Russia has begun dropping bunker-buster bombs on a Mariupol steel plant where Ukrainians are refusing to surrender, the commander of the Azov Regiment of the National Guard said Monday. Russia is bombing the plant even though civilians are sheltering in the plant’s tunnels. “Russian occupational forces, and their proxy ... know about the civilians, and they keep willingly firing on the factory,” he said. Russia estimated that 2,500 Ukrainian troops and about 400 foreign mercenaries were dug in. The U.S. said nearly a dozen Russian battalion tactical groups have been tied up trying to defeat them. . . . Ukraine estimates that 21,000 people have been killed in Mariupol. Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk warned Russia on social media that refusing to open humanitarian corridors will justify war crimes trials. The Russians, for their part, said “neo-Nazi nationalists” have hampered evacuations.Link (though AP links don't stay live for long). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 19 Apr 22 - 05:01 PM I based my comment on past experience, Hitlers invasion of Poland, was for resources, the polish coalfields The Ruhr was an important industrial region of Germany close to the border with France and also home to many coalfields which were vital to Germany's industrial production and, therefore, its ability to pay reparations. Germany would sometimes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 19 Apr 22 - 05:06 PM So two Historical similarites between dictators, The need to obtain certain resources. why would Putin want to restore the soviet union. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 20 Apr 22 - 01:50 AM I find Bidens analysis flawed. There is no economic advantage to Putin in restoring the Soviet Union. There are economic advantages to invading the Ukraine. There are also long term economic advantages in waging war, again if we use historical comparisopns which are based on fairly recent historical experience e.g the UK economy after the second world war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Rain Dog Date: 20 Apr 22 - 02:00 AM "The need to obtain certain resources. why would Putin want to restore the soviet union." Well once he restores the Soviet Union he has access to all the resources. You keep on answering your own question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 20 Apr 22 - 03:17 AM He does not have to restore the soviet union to access resources.The resources he is after, imo are in the ukraine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 20 Apr 22 - 03:24 AM Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Belorussia, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Latvia, ... Rain dog. explain the resources in each of these countries that you think Putin is after. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Apr 22 - 04:20 AM It is not nitpicking to remind you, again, that it is never "the Ukraine." That is regarded as offensive by many Ukrainian people and should never be used. Just "Ukraine" is the name of the country. If Putin had thought that invading Ukraine was economically advantageous, well the first few days of the invasion would have disabused him of that. He has met stern resistance which will continue long after any "victory" he achieves. To gain economic advantage, he needs a complicit population. That will never happen. In addition, he has trashed so much of the infrastructure of the country that it would cost him many billions to restore. Finally, he is facing massive sanctions that will economically damage Russia for decades to come and, at least in part, prevent him from raising the military resources need to continue his expansionism. The invasion of Ukraine is grounded in pro-Soviet ideology. That's what drives him. He might try to annexe the smaller Baltic states, but that will start a war with Nato that will staunch his expansionism for good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 22 - 08:29 AM Similar to the US, the Russain troops are mostly composed of those in poverty and ethnic minorities. As those Russians see first hand full pharmacies and grocery stores in Ukraine some eyes have been opened as to the standard of living in contrast to Mother/Putin Russia. This will pose even more opposition to Putin in the long run on a grass roots level as those troops will obviously blame Putin for their plight and poverty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 22 - 09:18 AM I can only hope we don't let hate win. The lucky few know how they will personally do this. The rest of us will require soul searching for their own way to not let hate win, not only regarding war but every aspect of life. The challenge is that natural compassion and empathy is absent in 20% of us. War is the wholesale carnage of hate. The heartless Soviet style Putin is not that different from our own local bigot. Social psychopaths are selling it. Buy into it at your own peril. Its better to be clever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 22 - 09:59 AM btw, war has always driven ~half the sane participants crazy with PTSD and often ends badly with suicide epidemics. Brave new world push button war included. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Apr 22 - 10:09 AM An update from the Wall Street Journal: Russian Offensive Bears Down on Donbas as West Races to Supply Ukraine With More Weapons Ukraine is reinforcing units as it also counterattacks southeast of Kharkiv In the Donbas port city of Mariupol, besieged by Russian forces since late February, the remaining Ukrainian defenders warned that time was running out and asked to be evacuated to a third country, alongside the wounded and the civilians sheltering in the shrinking area under Ukrainian control. Russia has insisted on an unconditional surrender and kept pounding the Ukrainian forces—who are mostly holed up in the sprawling Azovstal steel plant—with artillery and airstrikes. Large cities in the east have rubble where large apartment buildings used to sand, but Ukrainians are thinking ahead: Pointing out that a new development plan for London was designed in 1943, after the British capital was ravaged by Nazi bombing, Mr. Terekhov said that he now is working with British architect Norman Foster on a project to rebuild Kharkiv once the war ends. Photos in the article are striking. Perhaps most awful is the fire rescue crew preparing to zip up a body bag to move to the vehicle. The only parts of the body in view are a hand, part of a pants leg, and most striking, a stream of blood running away from the body in the street's gutter. They've been asking for weapons for weeks. “If we had obtained in the first week of the war what we are receiving today, it would have been much more useful for Ukraine and the cause of freedom in Europe,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in his Tuesday night address. He notes that if that equipment arrives now it will save lives. I suspect western powers thought Ukraine would crumble and weapons wouldn't be of use, only be captured. Now they're getting the idea Ukraine means business. Better late than never. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Fight in Ukraine - April 16, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 22 - 10:24 AM If this was chess, Ukraine is playing for a draw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:07 AM More than 25 nations have joined in purchasing and delivering weapons to support Ukraine’s war effort. The U.S. has sent billions of dollars in missiles, ammunition and other items to the front. The EU signed off on a €500 million ($551 million USD) package — a first for the 27-country European bloc — to help arm Ukraine. And both Finland and Germany have rewritten long-standing policy that barred exporting weapons into war zone Sweden has sent weapons to a country at war: Ukraine. The shipments include 5,000 anti-tank weapons manufactured by Saab, plus 5,000 helmets, 5,000 body shields, and 135,000 field rations. So far, Australia has announced AUD 116 million ($86.7 million) in military support. EU member states exported weapons to Russia after the 2014 embargo Despite the ongoing embargo, ten member states exported € 346 million worth of military equipment, according to public data analysed by Investigate Europe. Some of these weapons could be used against Ukraine now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Apr 22 - 07:48 AM Looks like you forgot to quote your source again Dick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:32 AM War reporting is mistaken with repeating an endless stream of numbers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 21 Apr 22 - 12:05 PM Biden orders short of a billion dollars of weapons for Ukraine. It has gone from simmer to medium heat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: The Sandman Date: 22 Apr 22 - 02:55 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY BBC NEWSNIGHT 2014 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Apr 22 - 03:33 AM See, you CAN do links :-) Now all you need to do is provide an indication of why you linked the item and maybe an argument based on the content and you may start to be taken seriously! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Apr 22 - 11:02 AM I unfriended a woman on Facebook who forwarded propaganda from a Russian English-language source that was intentionally publishing misinformation. She "trusted the friend who shared it" and was unwilling to examine the source of the information. Goodbye. This Nazi group may well exist in Ukraine that but isn't why Russia is invading. It's a sparkly distraction, Dick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Apr 22 - 11:32 AM Ethiopian men are queuing to fight for Russia - we should not give that banana republic a penny in aid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Apr 22 - 11:51 AM Could you give us a link to the source of that information please, Bonz? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Apr 22 - 12:45 PM here you go!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Apr 22 - 03:23 PM From that link... "What began as a trickle of volunteers swelled over two weeks to scores, two neighbourhood residents told Reuters. On Tuesday, Reuters reporters saw several hundred men registering with Ethiopian security guards outside the embassy. The guards recorded their names and asked for proof of military service. There is no evidence that any Ethiopians have been sent to Ukraine, nor is it clear if any ever will be." Hmmm... hardly a flood is it? Several hundred out of a male population of 57 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really do need to grow a sense of perspective old boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Donuel Date: 23 Apr 22 - 05:30 PM Yes there is a nazi faction in Ukraine like the US with its proud boys and KKK. Now they get to play war with impunity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Apr 22 - 07:49 PM I mean, who's side are you on here? Fer chrissake. There have been "Nazi groups" in France for decades, and the daughter of the Nazi-in-chief is doing rather well in the polls. Germany has had issues with "Nazi groups" for decades. In the UK we've had the National Front and the BNP. You have the KKK and god knows who else. I mean, what a fine time to nitpick about possible "Nazis" in Ukraine. Are you a Russian sympathiser by any chance? I mean, even would-be Stalinists can't exactly stomach what's going on... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Apr 22 - 08:33 PM Who are you addressing? Dick started it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 24 Apr 22 - 05:30 AM "Hardly a flood" Obviously, well done, they are just trying to scrounge their way into Europe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Apr 22 - 05:44 AM I was addressing the point, raised initially by Putin and which refuses to lie down, that there are "Nazis" in Ukraine. My response to that is not to deny that there may well be "Nazis" there, like everywhere else, but if you keep on raising it right now with reference to Ukraine you are simply dancing to Putin's tune. Also, my own instinct is to refrain from watering down the term "Nazi" by using it to refer to people on the far right. Whilst we should always have our antennae tuned for people who would like nothing less than to replicate Hitler's horrors, we should remember that there are plenty of alternative ways in the English language of characterising the nastier elements of the present-day far right. And maybe we could be talking about the ones who may or may not be in Ukraine when this war is over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:11 AM Have a nice day Bonz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022 From: robomatic Date: 24 Apr 22 - 03:05 PM 'nazi' has already been devalued in many ways. Along with Seinfeld's "soup nazi" and various among ourselves who use it to make a point of ultimate extremism, there are almost none of the folks who fit the original description. Plenty of wanna bes but in the original street-fighting sense, the WNs of today are a bunch of disorganized slobs by comparison with the tightly disciplined germanic hordes of yore. We should keep the focus on Putin's perversities of action and speech and the willingness of Russians to submit to this kind of 'leadership' which is sadistic and masochistic at the same time. |
