What is the future of folk music?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM

"State sponsorship, as in Ireland, would be wonderful if done right, but heaven help us from the Red Army Choir approach."
Agreed absolutely Richard - but it really doesn't have to be like that.
Up to the present financial debacle performers and researchers have called the tune completely with no state interference (apart from having to be nice to the relevant minister on occasion).
We were told 18 months ago that to ask for money for legitimate projects was pushing at an open door - we pushed, the result being that we now have the groundwork for several publishing projects completed.
We are reaping the benefit of the hard work put in by Nicholas Carolan, Tom Munnelly, Paddy Glackin and all those dedicated enough to slog their way uphill while the music was still being referred to as "that diddley-di shit" by politicians and art aficionados alike.
And no Ralphie – it needs much more than to be archived and preserved. If it is to be treated as the performed art it is it needs to be more than an appendage to an unimaginative pop music industry and to be performed and seen at its best in all its manifestations. The breakthrough here was brought about by researchers, academics and performers who took the music deadly seriously while still enjoying it to the full – and they didn't go in for definition-bending in order to incorporate Daniel O'Donnell and Jedward into their terms of reference.
"I'd love to comeback in 200 years....."
Me too - hopefully they will find it as beautiful an inspiring as we did and not in too much need of 'improvement'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:02 AM

PS Cheers to you too Ralphie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

And congratuatons on the 200 you just didn't claim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

"the future of folk music hopefully will be this;
people making and singing tunes and songs for their own enjoyment,not solely for commercial gain,and on instruments that are available at very little money[the unaccompanied human voice].
this is where unaccompanied singing comes in to its own,it is truly the music of the people,it can be done by anyone [regardless of income] anywhere any time."

Nice post there GSS.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 10:57 AM

Richard M: Presuming that "we" means young men, then those of us who aren't young men can't apply it to ourselves.

That was my point! The now vanished Suibhne pointed out a few times that he found he was still the 'baby' of most song sessions, despite being born in 1961. I'm suggesting gently that it ill becomes gents of mature years like me (born 1960) to lay down the law to people young enough to be our children.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Callitfolk
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 11:12 AM

Hi Everyone, I'm new here but I had to chime in on this thread. I have a folk music audio blog, called Call it Folk (Music). The purpose of my blog is to introduce older fans, of which I certainly am, to the younger performers, and to expose the younger singer-songwriters to the folks who have laid the way for them.

After 40 years of knowing, listening, and performing in the folk medium, I'm now discovering a world of music out there, from the "kids", that I think will carry the torch. Sure, many of them have lousy voices, they can't write topical or accessible songs, and they can't play their instrument well enough to hold the audience solo....but...there are some real gems out there, too, and they are still in their 20s. A big change already taking place, is that solo performers are using monikers,,,,so it seems as if they are a band. And so many of them get lost on the older crowd, as we are prone to identify "folk-singers" as individuals with names, and we often disregard oddly named "bands".

The best of these younger performers, somehow, are able to write and deliver very good songs, in many cases, without the knowledge of 90% of the performers who've gone before them. They've never heard of Nic Jones, Gordon Bok, Stan Rogers, or the thousand other writers and singers we are familiar with. But for these younger performers, it's intuitive, to write with a strong voice, and to make their lyrics dynamic. Sometimes, the songs come across as a blend of folk and pop, yet compelling and evocative. There are examples of younger performers using nylon strung guitars (think Laura Gibson), or acoustics that are mic'd, without the twangy soundhole pickups, etc.

The best of these performers, having gained some notoriety with there own (good) songs, go on to "discover" the music that preceeded them, and, in turn, produce more great songs. I suspect Folk Music, both trad and contemporary, will outlive us and survive in about the same form as we know it today. But of course, it will be just as underappreciated and obscure as well. If you've read this far, I apologize for the rant. I love reading these posts. You folks know from where you speak! John O'Hara

Call it Folk Blog

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM

I know I gripe a lot on this forum - it's not because I'm a crabby old git, I'm not, but out of love for the music and the sheer frustration in seeing it work so well here in Ireland and not in my native UK.
So - a modest proposal - as the man from Christchurch once wrote.
In 1973 a local piper, Willie Clancy from here in Miltown Malbay died at quite an early age. Instead of putting up a statue or a plaque and then forgetting him, a handful of locals got together and organised a school, mainly for pipers, but other instruments included.
This year, on the first Monday in July the 38th annual week-long Willie Clancy Summer School will take place; thousands of people from all over the world will converge on this one-street town to play music, to sing, to attend lectures, recitals and the giant concert on the Saturday. Over a thousand of them will attend classes in all the traditional istruments given by some of the finest musicians in Ireland. In the early days it was possible to get a seat in the handful of bars where the action took place - nowadays you have to queue up to get into town and all the bars are packed solid. The Willie Clancy Summer School not only provides a wonderful week of music and song, but has been a major influence in the upturn in the fortunes of traditional music in Ireland (and of the town - whenever we are away and tell people where we live they invariably say "Oh yes, the home of traditional Irish music") It has also inspired several dozens of similar events throughout Ireland, some dedicated to local musicians and singers (Joe Heaney, The Russell family, Joe Cooley, Mrs Crotty, Mrs Galvin....)
It strikes me that it is not beyond the bounds of possibilty to organise similar events in the UK located in the home place of say Sam Larner (Winterton), Harry Cox, (Catfield/Potter Heigham), Walter Pardon (Knapton), Charlie Wills (Ryall, Dorset), Phil Tanner, (Llangennith), George Maynard, (Copthorn), Ned Adams/Johnny Doughty (Brighton and Hastings).... dozens of them well worth honouring for their contribution to folk song. It doesn't have to be a specific singer - a Brigg Fair festival/weekend, whatever sounds good to me; something that a town or village could identify with.
It doesn't have to be ambitious, just a handful of enthusiasts for a start would do it. Involve the locals, family members if possible ( a must in my opinion), try for some local sponsorship - give it some academic cred. with a couple of talks (nothing heavy) and you might even attract some arts council money.
I wouldn't dream of speaking for them but I'm sure that some of the national figures in folk music would donate their time to getting such a project started - the people I worked with in the UK would and often did for similar causes.
The main thing, I think would be not to try to please all of the people all of the time - specialise, if possible around the singer's repertoire.
The success of The Willie Clancy Summer School has been that in spite of pressures from all sides it has never compromised - result - 38 wonderful schools and wall-to-wall music in this area throughout the year (including a huge bunch of youngsters, many of whom were taught by pupils of the early Clancy Schools) and a knock-on effect throughout Ireland.
Worth considering I wonder? The very least you could acheive is a pleasant week-end in the company of fellow enthusiasts; in my experience, most folkies are social animals and make pleasant companions - even the ones with smelly feet and halitosis.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 03:19 PM

Jim, I think that's exactly the sort of thing that it would be nice to see more of. In Essex we have the villages of RVW's early collections to possibly work thematically with. I'm not experienced enough to try to organise such a thing, though I'd certainly be willing to help out someone that was.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 03:52 PM

The repertoire of Alva (Vivien Ellis & Giles Lewin) is based in part on the RVW collections. As natives of Essex they did a R4 (or 3) broadcast not long ago but don't gig all that much. They are, however, at the Isles of Scilly festival over Easter weekend if you fancied nipping down the A30. There are, however, a growing number of English country music weekends scattered around where the emphasis is rather more on instrumental sessions and workshops than on song.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:29 PM

I came across this from Mike Harding. It is pertinent to this thread and provides food for thought.

I'm writing this on the last day of a visit to the USA and writing it - what's more - in a bit of a state of shock.

I was at a children's party the other day in a room full of 5-7 year old children and a good time was had by all; plenty of running round and games like Pass the Parcel and Musical Statues. Lots of good fun.

What shocked me was that during one of the games, the children were asked to sing a nursery rhyme, and they didn't know one single song all the way through!

They could all tell me that the song played during Pass the Parcel was by Lady Gaga, but not one of them could sing something simple all the way through.

One or two of them managed half a verse of Baa Baa Black Sheep but that was it!

I have to say that my own two grandsons managed better - largely because I sing lots of songs with them including a naughty one about three black cats coming knocking on the door.

But for a generation of American (and I suspect British) children, the nursery rhyme seems to be a thing of the past...

You can read the rest here

I think it is not unrelated to the fact that people seem to have stopped singing as they go about their everyday activities, (something my grandmother and my mother both used to do, though my mother stopped in later years) and, as a result, don't sing to their children.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:28 AM

When we moved here a dozen years ago we were surprise on our first Boxing Day (St Stephen's Day here) to get a knock on the door and be greeted by bunches of children chanting a rhyme, or quite often a carol or a fragment of a chilren's song accompanied by a request for "a penny for the wren", this being the survival of the ancient ceremony where, way back, men of the locality wold go out, catch a wren, kill it and pin it to a stick, using it as a device for begging money to pay for refreshments for the 'wren supper' a week later (the barbarism of killing the bird disappeared sometime round the turn of the 19th-20th century and was replaced with the use of a piece of tinsel or coloured paper). I believe that the ceremony survived last in the UK in the Isle of Man.
The song the children sang here was often inappropriate to the ceremony, seldom complete and was never the custmary one;

The Wren, the Wren, the King of all birds,
St Stephen's day was caught in the furze,
Up with the kettle and down with the pan,
We need a penny to bury the wren.
etc,

Nowadays there has been a slow return of troups of skillful young musicians; fiddles, concertinas, whistles, flutes.. all vying to outplay each other... nice to see - and the wren song seems to be making a re-appearance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

"It strikes me that it is not beyond the bounds of possibilty to organise similar events in the UK located in the home place of say Sam Larner (Winterton), Harry Cox, (Catfield/Potter Heigham), Walter Pardon (Knapton), Charlie Wills (Ryall, Dorset), Phil Tanner, (Llangennith), George Maynard, (Copthorn), Ned Adams/Johnny Doughty (Brighton and Hastings).... dozens of them well worth honouring for their contribution to folk song."


Jim, that is a brilliant idea. I'm quite excited by it.

The only problem with the way that ACE is constructed is that it is hard to get money for "national" projects unless you are a recognised "national" organisation. Otherwise you have to apply for funding on a region-by-region basis, which is time-consuming and unpredictable (if not downright haphazard). However, there might be HLF and local money available for such a project.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:45 AM

Ruth,
I agree with the pooblems of raising money - especially state money.
When the WCSS started there was no state aid; that came later.
That it is why it is essential (a) to start small and not be too ambitious; (b)to make any such event a local one and not "them townies poncing off us again"; and (c) get local sponsorship and, if possible, revenue from advertising (breweries were always lucrative sources - the School here has had to fight off Guinness from turning it into 'the Guinness Willie Clancy....').
Ideally the idea should come from a local, or at least from someone not too far away and the involvement of a member of the singer's family (should you take that path) sets an indelible seal of approval on the whole thing. Don't know if Harry Cox's daughter is still around, but she was always very proud of her father's singing. Likewise, Walter Pardon's nephew Roger Dixon first introduced W to Peter Bellamy, and lives a couple of doors away from Walter's cottage. Knapton isn't really a viable venue - no pub or shops - but neighboring Trunch or North Walsham is, and it's only three miles from the coast (we'd be happy to help with anything to do with Walter, either in an advisory or practical capacity).
One of the effects of the recession here is that hotels are offering such staggering bargain breaks in order to stay open that it's almost more expensive to stay at home - we've seen more of Ireland in the last 18 months than we have over the last 30-odd years.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:02 AM

Sorry folks - what is wrong with this **** keyboard - try again - to finish.

So my instinct would be to aim low, keep it local and give the locals something to identify with.
CS
"I'm not experienced enough to try to organise such a thing,"
I think you might surprise yourself - especially with a little help from your friends.
Good luck.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:12 AM

"I think you might surprise yourself"

Who knows. Well I'm certainly taking notes, and have been thinking about more experienced & learned contacts in the area who might be supportive.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM

Jim, I wouldn't even think of embarking on a project like this without working with people locally, and especially the local experts like EATMT (if we're looking at Harry Cox/Sam Larner/Walter Pardon, for example). I will bring the idea up with John Howson next time we speak.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM

Can I just add a couple of urther thoughts regarding money.
I don't know if the Vaughan Williams Society still exists, but they might lend a little clout with Arts Funding, similarly, there used to be a Grainger Society. EFDSS should be available in an advisory capacity.
Our local history group is heavily into song, music, lore and oral history to the extent that they published the excellent 'Dear Far-Voiced Veteran' - a festshcrift for song collector Tom Munnelly, with articles from Ireland, Britain and elsewhere a few years ago (copies still available).
Local groups like W.I might also be interested; even library and education committees.
Even local councils, especially in places where tourism is a feature, might help - but avoid the tourist season for these events like the plague.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:55 AM

Thoughts coming thick and fast here after some very encouraging pm's.
Can I add another suggestion.
Personally we are very happy with the local set-up of the Clancy School, but failing the chance of local involvement another idea occurs to me.
Another annual school here is dedicated to the 18th century poet Brian Merriman (of Midnight Court fame). It is run (I think) by a Dublin based group, but their annual schools are moveable feasts, selecting a venue for say two years then moving on to the next (invariably in Merriman's native Clare).
I see no reason why an organisation like EFDSS could not establish an annual 'Tribute to our Singers' festival and hold annual events in various locations related to singers or collectors; maybe having each start with an introductory talk on the loacal singers, repertoire, or previous work done (Hammond, Gardiner, Broadwood, Vaughan Williams, Sharp, Grainger, Greig and Duncan- the possibilities seem endless).
Again, full co-operation from local people would be vital to such projects - to avoid the 'bloody townies again' accusation and make it a local event, but involvement by bodies like EFDSS might just make Arts money available.
This does not have to be an either-or situation; I've seen both work equally well.
Apologies to Leveller - I hope he doesn't think his thread has been hi-jacked; if so, perhaps a new one should be started.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

I went to see Dave Swarbrick playing in our local pub a few nights ago. What he was playing was definitely folk music, even though the whole of his set included not one sung note, unaccompanied or otherwise. He was mainly playing tunes from the mid 1700s, and an interesting point he made was that some of them only existed today due to a concerted effort to write them down in the late 1700s, due to fears that they were dying out and being forgotten. Plus ca change!!!

It's also worth noting that a number of what Jim C and some other contributors see as "the old songs" were probably not in existence at the time some of Swarb's fiddle tunes were committed to paper...all songs were new at some time, after all.

I can see where Jim's coming from, but things change, and in much the same way as some songs and tunes written in the first half (or so) of the 20th century have become part of the "canon", I suspect that some were deprecated as "modern rubbish that won't stand the test of time" by "traditionalists" of the era. Where I really *do* take issue with Jim, though is:

"I have no doubt whatever that, apart from a tiny handful of 'custom songs' and those sung at sporting gatherings or in the schoolyard, the singing traditions of these islands are as dead as Monty Python's Norwegian Blue. They died when people stopped making songs that reflected their lives and events of their communities and passing them on to enable others to adapt them to serve the same purpose; they died when they/we sat back and let others make their/our culture for them/us, becoming passive recipients of a manufactured 'product' culture rather than relying on the innate talents we all posess."

The music scene as a whole has certainly evolved, and its evolution may not encompass folk traditions to the extent wished by some, but the above does a great disservice to the huge numbers of youngsters (and oldsters!) that are out there making music for little or no reward and not consuming "manufactured product". The manufactured product has been there in mainstream culture since recordings became possible...there was as much dross being manufactured for passive consumption 50-60 years ago as there is now. Our annual "Local and Live" festival in this modest-sized town in the SE of England can draw on at least 160 bands and artistes living within 30 minutes of the town, all of whom write and perform their own material, much of it in a "folky" tradition, if not exactly conforming to the strict demarcations some might wish for...but they're out there making it for themselves and probably represent at least as big a proportion of youngsters as those involved in the folk club scene of 50-60 years ago.

What *has* changed hugely is the types of song being created. And the reasons are nothing to do with the music scene per se, but with the way society has developed. In Ireland, for example, a large proportion of the population is only 1 generation removed from the land (virtually everyone I knew when I was working up and down the West Coast in the late 70s, supporting offshore survey operations on the Porcupine Bank, for instance, was from a farming family). The population is also more homogeneous than it is in England. Therefore, I suspect that the government funding and private bequests to encourage "real traditional" music amongst youngsters will fall on more fertile ground that it would in the more fragmented society we have in England. Nowadays, at the village and small town level, a tiny proportion of the population will be involved in working on the land, therefore it's unrealistic to expect much re-creation or new development in songs of the land or the seasons. Similarly, we no longer have the large areas of homogeneous industry that give birth to the songs of working life/ working people such as miners, weavers and the like. Where I grew up in Yorkshire, there were 5 mills in my small village and every single family had several members working in them, whether on the floor, or at supervisory/ managerial levels. So songs about weaving would have relevance to the whole village, owner or piece-worker.

The village now has no working mills and most people both work in the service sector *and* travel outside the area to widely-dispersed locations to do that work (rather than walking the 5 or 10 minutes from their terraces, all in the same direction, to work with the people they lived and socialised with, as in my youth). So songs that: "were created and re-created by working people to articulate their lives and feelings and aspirations" cannot realistically continue to be added to the "canon" given the social upheavals of the last half century. Naturally , therefore, many of the songs and tunes that are being created in the "folk tradition" today tend to be more concerned with *individual* hopes and aspirations, rather than collective ones, and some are quite introspective. But they're still being created, in large numbers, by "angry young men and women" who feel they have something to say abut their lives and conditions.

"Our culture got 'Barry Bucknalled', shifted up into the attic to make room for newer, disposable stuff that we no longer had a hand in creating. It is argued, here and elsewhere that this is a good thing, that the old songs no longer have a use simply because they are 'old'. If this is true....."

I just don't think it is true, at all. What does happen, though, is that as the total number of songs increases with time, some will wax and wane in popularity. Old songs that are very good will *not* die out (though some that are merely "good" may not get dusted down very frequently!). While I appreciate what Jim C says about categorising, definition, documentation and research, I think too much of this can detract from the actual process of making music *now*. I'm sure the farmers gathered in barns in the 1700s for a good sing and a dance weren't worried about whether what they were doing fitted neatly into some category approved by a researcher. They were just having a good time making and sharing music...pretty much as a lot of people are still doing. To me, someone like Kat Gilmore is making music in a "folky" tradition whether she's partnering Jamie Roberts or accompanying Danni Gibbins' (admittedly often introspective, but she's still young) songs in her previous band "Tiny Tin Lady". And is local fiddler Geri Holden any less "folky" because she also plays a mean jazz saxophone? And am I any less "into" the folk tradition because I (gasp!) also like quite a lot of rock music?

One of the things that puts some of my younger musician friends *off* folk venues is the perception they have of them being stuffed full of old people gazing wistfully back to a golden age and sucking their teeth at anything that doesn't fit their own prejudices. I've recently being going to 2 different venues locally. One is dying on its feet...it's a hotbed of factionalism, with the "unaccompanieds" ostentatiously going to get drinks when a guitar comes out, or a guitarist phoning up to ask if "there are any accordian players in tonight...I won't bother coming down if there are". I won't be going back to it. The other one is completely inclusive, and thriving, though Jim C might baulk at the idea of it being called a "folk" event at all. However, when I was there last week, we had a variety of ancient songs, unaccompanied and accompanied by guitars, mandolins, accordians and concertinas, plus some 60s and 70s "standards" (including a slightly updated "Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die Rag"!) and the odd song written in the last few years that's become "viral" in local pubs and clubs. I played Russ Barenberg's "Drummers of England", learned off YouTube from Will Fly's rendition (thanks, Will!) and some of the participants refused to believe how recently it was written. I've now taught it to 2 other guitarists who were at that evening, and I suspect that it will also become "viral" locally, as it's just a nice, memorable tune.

So to summarise this long post....IMO the "future of folk music" is safe in the hands of a much bigger group of young singers, musicians and listeners than some people appear to believe. The direction in which it's evolving may not be to the taste of some, but that was the case 50 years go, and probably 100 years ago, too. It's easy to believe, from the ceaseless media output of manufactured dross, that we've become passive consumers, particularly youngsters, but it simply isn't true across society (though ti may be for some sections). Youngsters are making their own music as much as they ever did and a fair bit of it falls (albeit not as narrowly as some might wish for) into the "folk" category.

Rob

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:52 AM

Sorry Rob; haven't got time to go through fully or respong to your interesting posting but a quickie.
"I think too much of this can detract from the actual process of making music"
Totally disagree - quite apart from the fact that if somebody hadn't taken the time and trouble to 'documentat and research' we would not have had any folk songs to sing in the first place and it is the result of this that has ascertained that future generations will have the same opportunities we had to listen to and sing them. Some people want to do one thing, some the other, some of us want do do both - and do. Please don't separate these activities into opposites - they complement each other, not canncel each other out.
One of the finest singers in Ireland, Len Graham, is also a prolific collector and archivist - he has just completed a sizeable biography on his friend and mentor the late traditional singer Joe Holmes.
The same type of work was carried out by Dublin singer Frank Harte, and there are plenty more where these come from.
Virtually all the folk songs we sing have been passed to us by researchers and collectors.
Swarb;
A song being 'old' doesn't make it a folk song; it has nothing to do with age nor type of song - it's a process the songs once passed through which now no longer exists thanks to 'progress'. We were recording folk songs no more than ten years old from Travellers , if that, when they had a tradition to filter and refine them - that stopped when they all bought portable televisions, virtually overnight.
One of the effects of 'progress' is that songs now emerge into the world stillborn - they belong to the author and come with a name attached and a little (c).
The folk club isn't a community and folkies aren't 'the folk'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 05:53 AM

I agree with Jim. Most of us no longer live in communities which all live and work together and share the same experiences - our lives are more fragmented. Without those shared community experiences, folk music in the proper sense is unlikely to thrive. Add to it that most people today are now divorced from the idea of creating music for themselves, and the prospects of a true folk tradition continuing seem bleak. Modern communities don't need to entertain or express themselves in that way. Having said that, there are still local traditions which bring communities together - Padstow May Day and the Sheffield carols, for example - but these are relatively few and far between.

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people making music. Some of it is folk, some of it sounds like folk, some of it sounds different but expresses similar sentiments. Folk song will not die, but it will remain in the hands of a relatively small group of enthusiasts. Perhaps this is a "community", but if so it is a one-dimensional one, united only by a shared interest in the music.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

Thanks Howard - wish I'd said that?
Did I really write 'respong' in my last postings - The Goons are coming back to haunt me!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 06:37 AM

Rob - you very kindly mentioned my playing of Russ Barenberg's "Drummers of England" - not a patch on Russ's playing which you can see also see on YouTube, by the way - and I have to say that when I first saw and heard this on the Transatlantic Sessions 3 series, I also thought it was a traditional tune! I only found out when I bought the 2-DVD set that he had written it.

It illustrates a point that I've been hammering away at for ages - to the edge of boredom for other people, I'm sure - that tunes, which carry little social baggage on the whole, seem to slip more seamlessly and acceptably into the sessions and the singarounds and the clubs than songs. There are whole books of Scottish and Cape Breton fiddle tunes - reels, strathspeys, etc. - of which the contents have been written over the last 30-40 years, and they're accepted as part of the repertoire because they fit beautifully into the genre. Just listen to the playing of Jerry Holland. Add to that mix the improvisatory part of fiddle playing - the rolls, shuffles, decorations, slurs, drones, etc. - and even modern-ish tunes like these can morph into strange and wonderful variations.

If we can't add to the old songs and change the old songs in the same way, while respecting what we know of the originals, then that particular song tradition will become an exhibit in a museum case. All communities change, eventually, and in odd ways. Let's remember that the Duke of Edinburgh is worshipped as part of the "cargo cult" in the remote Pacific island of Tanna!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 07:10 AM

As usual, I find myself agreeing with Mr Fly.
In English tune sessions, I find that people are much more tolerant of others playing abilities, by and large.
If it's a good tune, well played, then it will be greeted with great interest, even if it was written last week.
Notice, I'm specific at mentioning "English" sessions. I wouldn't dare get my Duet out in a hard core Irish session. (Not an Anglo you see?).
Maybe the fact that the music of England was essentially broken by various wars, and the breakdown of communities, and was then rediscovered in the 60's and 70's, makes us far more forgiving (and welcoming) of newly written tunes. That arrive with no baggage, none of this "You're not playing it properly, like in the old days" attitude.
In a way, English musos have been creating a new tradition over the last 40 odd years. Absorbing other influences from far flung countries and cultures, whilst still maintaining what we can glean from old manuscripts.
(John Adams Village project, and the Hardcore English book/CD, and many others).
Actually, I'm glad I don't sing. I can find like minded musicians virtually anywhere in the country, and within minutes be playing and listening in an all inclusive way.
Without having pedants pouring scorn on my abilities.
I assume that it was like that pre 20th century? nobody judged anyone else.
The nearest that I've come to that is "The Old Hat Concert parties" in Suffolk, and "Elsies" in Edenbridge.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 07:20 AM

Great posts from Ralphie and WF

This is the music and the process that I recognise

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 07:52 AM

Thanks matt.
I will plough my own furrow (musically that is, not being a farmer!) and it's glad to know that there are some fellow travellers who are of like mind.
I wish I'd met Jinky Wells, Sam Larner et all. Did meet The Rev Ken Loveless. (didn't work for me sadly).
I did meet George Spicer, Font Watling, etc. Still know Packie Byrne. All I have of Cecilia Costello, Joseph Taylor, etc, are the archive recordings. And lovely they are too.
But, just as brilliant are the more contemporary versions of the songs and tunes that where luckily recorded before they passed over.
Chris Fosters version of Costellos Grey Cock, is spine tingling, and made me seek out the Costello original.
And that is the point.
Was Cecilia described as a revival singer? Tut Tut...How dare she?
Probably drummed out of the pub for singing such a satanic song!
Sorry. But for me. The Trad / Contemporary date is 1890.
Before that. Only various scratchings of tunes/words done in a very haphazard way. (Am not referring to Art/Classical music here)
After 1890. with the advent of cylinder recordings. Then the tradition died.
End

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 08:06 AM

RALPHIE, has a good point about certain trad tunes sessions,there is alot of snobbery attached to some irish tune music sessions[very often in my experience this is notthe case with irish people]but very often people in the uk,who have a very narrow idea of how irish music pshould be played.
a visit to the session .org ,illustrates this quickly,where there are some self importantpontificators harping on about how the music has to be played in a particular way.
mind you I have found singers much more tolerant,most people are happy to encourage other singers
furthermore whatever opinions I may have expressed on this fourm ,I would never dream of saying if i was in a public singaround,I keep my thoughts to myself and try and be as encouraging as possible,if somebody asked my advice then that is different,however if they did so, I would try and say something positive about their singing,I strongly believe that all criticism should be mixed with praise.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:07 AM

"Probably drummed out of the pub for singing such a satanic song!"
I do wish we could get rid of this value thing - nobody has said that the songs shouldn't be sung in any way the singer chooses - if they have, please tell me where.
"After 1890. with the advent of cylinder recordings."
Ballad singer Mrs Hogg was accusing Sir Walter Scott's writing them down as 'killing them off" a long time before that Ralphie.
The tradition died when we all sat back and let others make our culture for us and became passive recipients of our songs rather than makers and interpreters (as a race - not as individuals).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:28 AM

they're accepted as part of the repertoire because they fit beautifully into the genre

The two phrases I've highlighted are precisely the difference between playing and singing. At most of the FCs I've been to there is no "repertoire" as far as songs are concerned; people don't sing together, the odd chorus apart, and people don't swap songs - in fact it's bad form to sing someone else's song. Everyone has their own repertoire - Bert plays Donovan, Simon specialises in Jacques Brel, Bob sings Hank Williams and everyone does some of their own songs.

And as for the genre - what genre? There was a genre of thoughtful acoustic balladry which flourished in the clubs for a while (Jez Lowe, Harvey Andrews, Tom Yates et al) but the relation between that style and traditional song was always a bit complicated: a few songs from that scene do sound like long-lost broadside ballads, but most of them just sound like contemporary songs. These days, in a lot of clubs, folk isn't a genre at all, but a way of making & listening to music - high on enthusiasm and variety, low on skill and consistency. I agree with Rob N and with Suibhne (departed), up to a point - an 'open mic'/'open stage' evening can be a great source of popular creativity, a real folk art form in the broad sense. BUT

(it's a big but)

it hasn't necessarily got anything to do with the old songs. Genre gone.

At the mostly-trad singaround I go to, on the other hand, people can and do sing a bit of MacColl or Lal Waterson or Peter Bellamy, and they do fit right in. But there has to be something there for them to fit into - and that's ensured by the expectation that the evening will be mostly (although not exclusively) trad.

In short, the fact that I want to roll back the process you describe doesn't mean I'm against it! I'm in favour of it happening, but I think it's gone far too far.

Add to that mix the improvisatory part of fiddle playing - the rolls, shuffles, decorations, slurs, drones, etc. - and even modern-ish tunes like these can morph into strange and wonderful variations.

That's another difference - this is just the kind of liberty that singers don't feel able to take, except in the case of traditional songs; ironically, this is one of the reasons people like me keep banging on about the need for trad. When I sing Musgrave or Lord Allenwater, the words I sing aren't exactly the same as anyone else's version, but they're still recognisably the same song. Do that to Mr Tambourine Man and you'd get looks.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:08 AM

The tradition died when we all sat back and let others make our culture for us and became passive recipients of our songs rather than makers and interpreters (as a race - not as individuals).

And Ralphie's date of 1890 fits with the start of that process. Before that people had to make their own entertainment, after that time ready made entertainment began to become more widely available. It did not all happen at once and in the cities there was the music hall before that, but the inventions that led to the electronic media started to be made at about that time.

Mind you, Jim, you strike me as a modern day version of Mrs Hogg at times.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:19 AM

Just out of curiosity, why 1890? Popular entertainments for the masses existed long before that, and you might as well mark the date of 1830 - the rise of supper rooms and pleasure gardens, or the 1850s, when such entertainments moved into purpose-built halls. Or 1877, when Edison invented the wax cylinder recorder.

Ready-made entertainment's been around a long time - but certainly not in the pervasive way of today, I grant you.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

Ok its 1891 (June)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

the 15th?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:47 AM

11am?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

Having done extensive research...
I can conclusively confirm that the "TRADITION" died in 1888. (can't pin it down to a specific day/time. Sorry.
"Mary had a Little Lamb" apparently (the first recording)....Not very traditional I'll admit, but a pithy version nonetheless.
You lot are just a bunch of PEDANTS!!!
Who actually cares?
It's just people making music, song and dance....
Navel gazing I'll leave to the Admiralty....(presumably hauling on their bowlines....Down in the lonesome low... somewhere near Cape Horn, or maybe bound for South Australia.)
I'll just carry on playing the tunes I like.
And do you know what?
I don't care, if it's not appreciated by anyone else.
I know what I like, and I know how to find it.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

"after that time ready made entertainment began to become more widely available"
And yet people still continued to record their outlook on life and their experiences right into the 20th century - up to the 70's in the cases of some more isolated communities - they did so because they felt it more important to do it themselves rather than 'get a man in' to do it for them.
There's a story we got from a man named Jim Larner in Sam Larner's home village of Winterton.
Sam and his mates sang in the local pub, The Fisherman's Return all their lives, meeting in the back room every Saturday night in order to do so.
One afternoon a retired fisherman went into the pub to find a brand new bakelite wireless playing behind the bar. When he asked what it was he was told that it was a new-fangled device that brought news and all the latest tunes from London through wires.
The old man reached behind the bar with his walking stick and hooked the wireless off the shelf bringing it down tothe floor, smashed to pieces.
It was never replaced and Sam and his mates went on singing for another twenty years.
At Vauxhall Gardens and, I'm sure, other such places there were 'fringe groups' of people who would ignore the laid-on entertainment and sing to each other rather than be entertained.
Blind Traveller woman, Mary Delaney, as late as the mid-seventies would sit round an open fire with her family and friends and sing all night rather than go to the pub and hear the booked acts - usually C&W. When it finally died out she told us "The new stuff has the old songs ruined".
The saddest account we heard was of the magnificent blind epic storyteller Henry Blake of Kilbaha, in South Clare. He was in the middle of telling a story to our friend, Tom Munnelly in the local bar when somebody switched the television set on.
Henry stopped mid-tale, walked out of the bar and could never be persuaded to tell another story.
Traveller storyteller and singer, Mikeen McCarthy told us that the old men were "dying of loneliness" because they had lost not only their audiences, but also the desire to converse had disappeared; the youngsters either watched the match on the tele or played pool.
Or maybe I'm making it all up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

You're still doing it Ralphie - nobody has suggested you shouldn't like anything - nobody has told you what and what not to perform, or listen to, or like. I don't care what you like or dislike - it's none of my ****** business.
What I care about is your giving something a definition simply because you like it and accusing me of trying to prevent you from listening to it or playing it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

i think we need to start a campaign to bring back singing while you do your everyday chores,plus singing when you are on the job,singing when you are having a crap[halelujah i am a bum],singing when youare on the computer ,etc etc

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:32 PM

plus singing when you are on the job

Mmm... I think Mrs. F. would have something to say about that...

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:50 PM

Have PM'd you Ralphie

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:06 PM

Au Clair De La Lune was recorded in 1860, preceding Edison by 17 years. Neither recording ended the tradition though, just changed for ever the means of passing it on.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 03:32 AM

Jim,

Quote
RN:"I think too much of this can detract from the actual process of making music"
JC:Totally disagree - quite apart from the fact that if somebody hadn't taken the time and trouble to 'documentat and research' we would not have had any folk songs to sing in the first place and it is the result of this that has ascertained that future generations will have the same opportunities we had to listen to and sing them. Some people want to do one thing, some the other, some of us want do do both - and do. Please don't separate these activities into opposites - they complement each other, not canncel each other out.
Unquote

I wasn't saying that documentation and research were unimportant. They obviously are. My point was that *only* concentrating on the past can give a skewed viewpoint of what's going on in the present.

And:
JC: "One of the effects of 'progress' is that songs now emerge into the world stillborn - they belong to the author and come with a name attached and a little (c).
The folk club isn't a community and folkies aren't 'the folk'. "

I appreciate that the clubs aren't "the folk". But my point was that *society* has evolved, to the point, in England at least, where there *aren't* local communities, or homogenous groups in an area largely engaged in the same trades. What constitutes a "folk" song therefore has to evolve to accommodate this change. And there are still songs that appear and propagate without the (c).

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 03:48 AM

Will

(Jim C: it's my post above, too)

I definitely agree with you that it's easier for modern tunes than for modern songs to become part of the "canon"....and to be adapted and to morph with usage. My version of "Drummers" for instance, is very different to Russ's original, though it bears a strong resemblance to yours.

Incidentally, although the Russ B clip seems to have disappeared from YouTube, I do have the Transatlantic Sessions DVD set. However, Russ's guitar playing is beyond my skills to emulate, and with the other instruments adding to the mix, I found it much easier to pick up the tune from your own version. In fact, I've used your YouTube clips to pick up several tunes, for which you have my thanks again.

Some vocal stuff does mutate, though. For example, Tom Paxton's "Lyndon Johnson Told The Nation" has become "George W Told The Nation", and the 3 versions I've heard are all quite different....some different words in some verses, and in one case an entirely new verse added by someone English, but unknown.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 03:54 AM

Ralph's mention of not playing the duet at Irish sessions reminded me of a session in the very early years at Whitby festival in the the Elsinore. There was a morning session going (They opened the bar at 10:30!) and a few 'clever dicks' decided to change to keys that some others could not play in. There was an English concertina player, and I think it was Ian Goodyear but I could be mistaken, who spotted this and took the same tune to another key, and another, and another... After the 5th or 6th key change he was on his own, with said clever dicks glowering and everyone else in the room grinning from ear to ear. He stopped with the phrase 'Why has everyone else stopped?' and to a huge round of applause.

Nowt to do with the thread but it was a good memory:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:18 AM

Hey El Gnomo...!!
I think I was there at that session in Whitby!
Haven't seen Ian Goodyear for ages!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:19 AM

"Working Radish",

I agree with your points, broadly, but the sessions I was describing in my original (very long) post were of the "singaround" variety rather than "open mic/ open stage". Acoustic, with everyone contributing (or not!) in turn.

There *is* a lot of creativity at open mic sessions...I go to one in Axminster when I occasionally have to visit Devon for work, and the standard of musucianship, singing and creativity there is very high. But the format is one person or group getting up at a time and playing through a PA from a "stage area". Usually a set of several songs. I make a big distinction between those sessions and the singarounds I go to locally, though there is creativity at both of them.

I think that we're pretty much arguing the same thing, though: society has moved on and while it's great to have so much preserved from the past, some "good things" are still happening in the present.

This is where I take issue with Jim C, who seems to believe that almost *all* our current musical culture is predicated on manufactured stuff, passively consumed. "The kids" I know today are largely just as scornful of commercial radio playlist stuff as my generation were when we scorned Freddie & The Dreamers and Herman's Hermits and are just as active in creating their own music scene in pubs, clubs and small venues as we were. Most of my children's friends play and/or sing, and none of them would dream of auditioning for one of the TV "talent" shows, or expect to make money from it.

Whether it's "folk" or not is irrelevant in countering Jim's point that we're all passive consumers now.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

society has moved on and while it's great to have so much preserved from the past, some "good things" are still happening in the present.

I do think some good stuff is going on now, but I still agree (mostly) with Jim - traditional singing is (or was) something very different & very valuable, & very well worth preserving - particularly in ways which, however briefly, bring it back to life.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:26 AM

"What constitutes a "folk" song therefore has to evolve to accommodate this change."
This implies an alternative definition - which is....?
"The kids" I know today are largely just as scornful of commercial radio playlist stuff "
While this may be true to an extent, the kids I know want to be part of the machine AND do their own thing too (if that were in any way possible, never happened so far as far as I can see) "I want to be a op star" rather than "I have something to say and want to sing".
Most of them, in this town anyway are still passive consumers in the sense that they cram into the pubs that cater for their particular tastes and shout at each other over the band or the music provided through he speakers (I seem to remember a slogan that went something like "Pump up the volume - not much room for self-expression if that's your critereon).
Anyway, my opinion was based on the understanding that everybody on the planet isn't aged between 14 and 20 - we all have something worth saying, crumblies or not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:29 AM

"we all have something worth saying, crumblies or not."

Sorry, can you speak up a bit? LoL

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:31 AM

I certainly DO agree that traditional singing is worth preserving...not just "preserving", either (as "in aspic") but keeping alive.

However, the context of my "society has moved on" comment was Jim's repeated assertion/ assumption that our music culture now is almost entirely commercial, with youngsters beinf exposed only to manufactured output and indulging in passive consumption. It's just not true, IMO.